God vs. Science.

Posted by Les on Thursday, September 06, 2007 at 04:04 PM. Read 29856 times. Tags: , , , , ,
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Someone sent me a link to this blog entry at some random weblog that appears to be a new variation on the popular Evil Atheist Professor versus the True Believer student chain letter that’s been making the rounds for years. Previous versions were much shorter and attributed the student as being Albert Einstein, but this version has replaced making the student someone famous with making the fiction considerably longer. This isn’t the only blog with this email up as of late and just about every site that has it marvels over what a great bit of logic it is.

Well I’m hear to say it’s a load of crap, but first I should start by relating the sad story in question:

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, “Let me explain the problem science has with religion.” The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

“You’re a Christian, aren’t you, son?”

“Yes sir,” the student says.

“So you believe in God?”

“Absolutely.”

“Is God good?”

“Sure! God’s good.”

“Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?”

“Yes.”

“Are you good or evil?”

“The Bible says I’m evil.”

The professor grins knowingly. “Aha! The Bible!” He considers for a moment. “Here’s one for you. Let’s say there’s a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?”

“Yes sir, I would.”

“So you’re good…!”

“I wouldn’t say that.”

“But why not say that? You’d help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn’t.”

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. “He doesn’t, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?”

The student remains silent.

“No, you can’t, can you?” the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

“Let’s start again, young fella. Is God good?”

“Er…yes,” the student says.

“Is Satan good?”

The student doesn’t hesitate on this one. “No.”

“Then where does Satan come from?”

The student falters. “From God”

“That’s right. God made Satan, didn’t he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Evil’s everywhere, isn’t it? And God did make everything, correct?”

“Yes.”

“So who created evil?” The professor continued, “If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.”

Again, the student has no answer. “Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?”

The student squirms on his feet. “Yes.”

“So who created them?”

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. “Who created them?” There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. “Tell me,” he continues onto another student. “Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?”

The student’s voice betrays him and cracks. “Yes, professor, I do.”

The old man stops pacing. “Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?”

“No sir. I’ve never seen Him.”

“Then tell us if you’ve ever heard your Jesus?”

“No, sir, I have not.”

“Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?”

“No, sir, I’m afraid I haven’t.”

“Yet you still believe in him?”

“Yes.”

“According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?”

“Nothing,” the student replies. “I only have my faith.”

“Yes, faith,” the professor repeats. “And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.”

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. “Professor, is there such thing as heat?”

“Yes,” the professor replies. “There’s heat.”

“And is there such a thing as cold?”

“Yes, son, there’s cold too.”

“No sir, there isn’t.”

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. “You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don’t have anything called ‘cold’. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.”

“Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.”

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

“What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?”

“Yes,” the professor replies without hesitation. “What is night if it isn’t darkness?”

“You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it’s called darkness, isn’t it? That’s the meaning we use to define the word.”

“In reality, darkness isn’t. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?”

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. “So what point are you making, young man?”

“Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.”

The professor’s face cannot hide his surprise this time. “Flawed? Can you explain how?”

“You are working on the premise of duality,” the student explains. “You argue that there is life and then there’s death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can’t even explain a thought.”

“It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.”

“Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?”

“If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.”

“Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?”

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

“Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?”

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

“To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.”

The student looks around the room. “Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor’s brain?” The class breaks out into laughter.

“Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor’s brain, felt the professor’s brain, touched or smelt the professor’s brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.”

“So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?”

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. “I guess you’ll have to take them on faith.”

“Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,” the student continues. “Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?”

Now uncertain, the professor responds, “Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man’s inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.”

To this the student replied, “Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God’s love present in his heart. It’s like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.”

The professor sat down.

This students statements are true, can you or can you not make night darker?

Is it possible for it to get colder after absolute zero -458 degree’s F.

Can you feel,taste,see,hear,or smell your brain,

If anyone can contest this please do.

So I did. I left the following comment at the blog I pulled this from and, as it’s rather lengthy and there’s a good chance the site owner will just delete it outright, I thought I should post it here as well.

Here’s my reply:

    It’s a fictional story that’s been attributed to any number of people including Albert Einstein, but has no basis in reality. It’s also a very flawed argument that’s only really impressive to the scientifically illiterate. It’s kind of sad to see it making the rounds once again, but at least the latest incarnation isn’t attributing it to Einstein.

    Let’s start with the most obvious problem with this entire argument: The Christian God is supposedly omnipresent therefor if God is literally everywhere how can there be the absence of God anywhere? This is a fatal flaw to the Absence of God = Evil argument. Additionally there’s the problem with the simple fact that many believers commit acts of evil in spite of their belief in God and often because of their belief in God. This would also be an obstacle for the evil = absence of God argument.

    Secondly it relies on conflating two different meanings of the word faith. Namely the faith required for something that’s pretty well established—the fact that the professor does have a brain—versus the faith required for something with absolutely no evidence—the existence of God. In the former there are any number of ways to prove the existence of the professor’s brain, some of which would be extreme but definitive (open his skull and look), but a simple cat scan should suffice for most people. The existence of brains is so well established, in fact, that most Christians wouldn’t be stupid enough to question that reality in the first place.

    In comparison you’d first have to nail down exactly what you mean by the word “God”, because even among believers of the same religion there’s often a difference on opinion about the nature of God, before you could even begin to try and establish whether or not it would be possible to determine if he exists. Clearly the type of faith it would take to believe in such a being is miles beyond the faith it takes to accept our lowly professor as having a brain without resorting to cracking his head open to check, though that would at least be possible if it had to come to it.

    This particular version managed to work in the anti-evolution angle as well though that too is a flawed and incorrect argument. Evolution has been observed in both simple lab experiments and by studying fossils from antiquity. That is an entire argument unto itself, however, and more time than I wish to expend at the moment.

    Furthermore the definitions for heat/cold and light/dark demonstrate that the author of this fiction has only a limited understanding of the concepts he’s writing about. The whole paragraph where the student explains the concept of heat is wrong, but most people aren’t scientifically literate enough to grasp that fact. They just see a lot of scientific words and their eyes glaze over and they think something really intelligent was said.

    The author contends that “heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy” and that is flat out wrong as heat is actually the transfer of energy caused by a temperature difference. If two systems are not in thermal equilibrium with each other then heat transfer will occur with the flow going from the higher temperature system to the lower temperature system until thermal equilibrium is obtained. Or, in other words, if one system is hot and the other one is cold then heat will transfer from one to the other until they are the same temperature. The statement that we can have “super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat” is just nonsense. The author is conflating the word “heat” with the word “hot” the latter of which is, like “cold”, a relative term describing the temperature of an object in relation to something else.

    So too the author goes on to demonstrate only a partial understanding of light and dark. He starts by conflating the scientific definition of light, which includes the entire electromagnetic spectrum, with what is known as “visible light.” What we refer to as dark is actually just a low level of visible light, but not the absence of light as is claimed in the text. Even in the total absence of visible light all objects will continue to give off infrared and gamma radiation due to heat transfer and as such there is no absence of light at all even though you can’t see. A simple pair of infrared goggles is all it takes to see in the darkest of environments. In order to remove all light you’d have to remove all energy (absolute zero) which isn’t possible to do outside of the realm of theoretical mathematics.

    So the answers to the questions at the end of this missive end up as follows: Yes, you could make night “darker” by blocking out more and more of the electromagnetic spectrum. No, you can’t make something colder than absolute zero because that’s the point when a system has no energy. For that matter it’s not possible to reach absolute zero either, though you can get close and matter starts to do some funky stuff at those temperatures. Yes, you can feel, taste, see, hear, and smell your brain if you really wanted to, but some of those would be messy and probably leave you damaged in the process. For some folks, though, it might be an experiment worth undertaking.

Please feel free to chime in with any other flaws you find in either the original story or my rebuttal.

Comments:

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Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 09/26/2007 at 08:37 AM

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catholics suck it: I hate this culture it’s so… material and lazy

How is this a problem?

Oh yeah and I don’t give a fuck what you have to say about my personal opinion

Which means you’re more resilient

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 09/26/2007 at 08:58 AM

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Oh yeah and I don’t give a fuck what you have to say about my personal opinion.

Like hitting the “delete comment” button?

Im sorry if I have ranted and for what ever gramar problems I had, not really in the mood to check.

Not to worry, nobody’s in the mood to read posts riddled with bad grammar or spelling.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Last_Hussar Great Britain (UK) Posted on 09/26/2007 at 08:17 PM

Last_Hussar pic
Your money or your life!

I know that one, Hussar:
“Take my life.  I’m saving my money for my old age”.

Thank you, we’re here all week, try the veal.

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“Sarah Palin doesn’t believe climate change is man made.  Even George W Bush now believes climate change is man made.  Its a sad state of affairs when you make George W Bush look like an informed progressive” Andy Parsons

M United States Posted on 10/05/2007 at 06:49 PM

M pic

You can cut open his head. [Something called brain surgery]

Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 10/06/2007 at 02:10 PM

Bahamat pic

I need a few more ‘volenteers’ to practise on though…

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

summondice United States Posted on 11/19/2007 at 06:27 AM

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Heya Les, I just wanted to thank you for posting this blog refuting (at least partially) the chain letter in quesiton.

Someone commented that responding is pointless because the audience/author are unconvincible, but I disagree. The author may be, but the only way to fight ignorance is to expose it (considering so many people are uninterested in questioning even the simplest of premises and conclusions) and sadly, your blog refuting this is the only thing of its kind I could find in a google search (and it took some trying, sadly).

Readers of this garbage really do just see that it appears to be written intelligently and run with that, and the fewer people who respond to it means more people who might just google it and, finding no refutations (as I initally came up with) and assume it is truth.

On a more personal level this chain letter bothers the bejeebers out of me because it not only assumes it “proves” God, and that that sort of faith is good and necessary, and “disproves” evolution, but it also stereotypes the philosophy professor according to what the Christian communities would like them to be. I’m a philosophy major at a school with 10 phil professors, only two of which believe in a god at all and of all of the classes I’ve taken not once has a discussion even similar to the one portrayed here occurred.

There are simply sooooo many more interesting and pertinent topics to cover. But the Christian community thinks philosophy has it out for their God.

How ego-centric...We moved on long, long ago…

Fer Mexico Posted on 04/03/2008 at 06:25 PM

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Hi. God is omnipresent in the fisical plane not in the non-fisic like feelings, it’s obvious that this history is for that one who really know something about faith, not only Science.
talking about the absolute zero what if it were -1000ºF? can we go under? what if WE think it is -458ºF but it isn’t? if you don’t see it (in all it’s dimensions) it doesn’t exists, for us absolute zero is it -458ºF but, do we know all the dimensions? i don’t think so.
PS don’t play “understanding” God

Last_Hussar Great Britain (UK) Posted on 04/03/2008 at 08:01 PM

Last_Hussar pic

OK- I’ll let the language go on the understanding English as a second language.  I’m crap at languages so I won’t criticise the syntax etc.

The ideas behind it, though? In the immortal words of Eddie Murphy…

Get the fuck out of here!

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“Sarah Palin doesn’t believe climate change is man made.  Even George W Bush now believes climate change is man made.  Its a sad state of affairs when you make George W Bush look like an informed progressive” Andy Parsons

Julian India Posted on 04/03/2008 at 09:31 PM

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God is omnipresent in the fisical plane

God is an economist? I always thought he was in the construction business.

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“I know you, Kingslayer, I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. “

Fer Mexico Posted on 04/03/2008 at 10:12 PM

Fer pic

Last Jussar:Sorry, i am Mexican, the english isn’t my first language. But I am sure of something: when you are in a forum and you become agresive you only show that you are afraid of something, I am not an ignorant, I am a Mechatronic and Process Control System Engineer, also Teacher of the Humanistic Sciences at a University. I am here for learn not for discuss.

Julian: You are right, you “thought”,how can you be sure that there is no such a thing as a economist builder?, for heaven sakes it is God, He can be anything He wants. If you don’t believe in Him you can talk about. in words of berkeley “if you don’t seem it(in any dimension) then it doesn’t exists”

cubiclegrrl United States Posted on 04/03/2008 at 10:20 PM

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Jus:  Something to think about.  If “God” is what we don’t understand or can’t measure, then “God” is shrinking all the time.  That’s a dangerous road for believer to walk.

MisterMook United States Posted on 04/03/2008 at 11:19 PM

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He can be anything He wants

If that’s the case, so far he seems to be intent on being a figment of people’s imaginations. Your argument seems firmly rooted in my favorite CS Lewis quote from Four Loves:

“If there were an invisible cat in that chair, the chair would look empty; but the chair does look empty; therefore there is an invisible cat in it.”

So if you can’t sense the cat or prove it’s there, and the cat never does anything that makes it visible or proves its existence, why should anyone treat the chair as if there were a cat in it, unless they’re mainly concerned with wanting their to be an invisible cat in the chair rather than there actually being an invisible cat in the chair? And if two people point at a chair and one says, “See, there’s my invisible cat!” why should anyone believe him or think the man is anything but deluded?

Fer Mexico Posted on 04/04/2008 at 12:12 AM

Fer pic

Why should anyone believe him or think the man is anything but deluded?

MisterMook: lol, that’s funny, i will try to answer that question, in fact anyone shouldn’t believe him or think he is not lying, that’s what we call “Faith freedom”, but, does it matter what the other do think?if the one who is telling the cat is it in the chair really believes in it,and the cat can affect his life, then the cat exists, that’s because when you can’t seem anything you can say it exists because of the reactions that it produces in the enviroment… sorry for the grammar

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 04/04/2008 at 07:27 AM

elwedriddsche pic

does it matter what the other do think?

People seeing things that nobody else does are called deluded—in the clinical sense. People sharing and mutually reinforcing the same delusion are called religious.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Fer Mexico Posted on 04/04/2008 at 09:46 AM

Fer pic

elwedriddsche:

I agree with you, but there is a possibility that what we call “delusion” become a reality when other ones seem it or understand it. There is an effect in the Clinical world and,you know i am not lying, they say that when you don’t know something you have less chance for identify it in a group of other objects (tangible, feelings, ideas,images,even smells or sounds), that’s the reason because somebody could ignore facts of reality. The real question is it, how could we know what is it this “reality”, not philosophy reality but one that can be identified for the most of the people, that denies it is a “delusion”.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 04/04/2008 at 11:02 AM

elwedriddsche pic

I agree with you, but there is a possibility that what we call “delusion” become a reality when other ones seem it or understand it.

Not likely. We may understand the root causes of what’s causing delusions, but that doesn’t make delusions objectively real.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

MisterMook United States Posted on 04/04/2008 at 11:25 AM

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I man might believe there is a real cat there, but that does not mean there is a real cat there in any objective sense of the word. More importantly, the modern world can’t easily afford to attend to every delusion as if it were objectively real while its performing the very important business of

When it comes time to sit in the chair, science must firmly put its ass down and smother any nonsense of a cat in the chair with reality, no matter who it might offend or whose invisible cat it has caused to vanish.

I really have no problem with the very small margin of religious people who can accept that their cat is indeed invisible (objectively unreal), but who simply perform their faith as a sense of morality, or community, or culture. I might disagree with those notions, but then religion at least becomes normal politics rather than politics bolstered by delusion.

Fer Mexico Posted on 04/04/2008 at 12:05 PM

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MisterMook: I am the same Fer, only that now i have an account.
You use 2 finite terms; objective and science, they are the same as Faith and Religion, and both they look for the same, with different names; Science looks for the truth and Religion for the God, Both assumes that it’s goal exists and Both(again) have it own terms that are the “right methods” and there are no way for saying one or another is wrong,you must taste “both sides of the force” before taking one of them. What are you, religious or scientific? I think i am a scientist that believes in God after studying quantum physics, and I am also Teacher of Humanistic Sciences

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Fer Mexico Posted on 04/04/2008 at 12:12 PM

Fer pic

elwedriddsche: there is not such a thing like a delusion, only what WE call that way, for making laws of the universe you should know ALL the universe. in Math if you don’t know all the universe you can’t probe that something doesn’t exists. Do you know all the universe? or even all the dimensions?

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I am good, not so good an not all the time

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 04/04/2008 at 12:28 PM

elwedriddsche pic

there is not such a thing like a delusion

Sure there is, both in the colloquial and the clinical sense.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 04/04/2008 at 12:47 PM

elwedriddsche pic

objective and science, they are the same as Faith and Religion, and both they look for the same, with different names; Science looks for the truth and Religion for the God

The above only holds if you apply a sufficient amount of woo.

woo: n.(or adj), the way a person is when they uncritically believe unsubstantiated or unfounded ideas. Short for “woo woo”.

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Julian India Posted on 04/04/2008 at 01:21 PM

Julian pic

Julian: You are right, you “thought”,how can you be sure that there is no such a thing as a economist builder?, for heaven sakes it is God, He can be anything He wants. If you don’t believe in Him you can talk about. in words of berkeley “if you don’t seem it(in any dimension) then it doesn’t exists”

............There are no words.

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“I know you, Kingslayer, I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. “

Fer Mexico Posted on 04/04/2008 at 04:18 PM

Fer pic

elwedriddsche: sorry but I don’t think that: the universe is finite>>the knowledge is limited, so everything is fake if you don’t know all in the universe, it is logic, don’t? i think that’s correctly founded by the fact of the infinite universe. You still looking everything in the science mode, science is a human creation (I am not against science..)but science knowledge is finite by now.
Julian:That was a joke! the important thing in the text is the phrase of Berkley, only changing knew instead of seem.

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elwedriddsche United States Posted on 04/04/2008 at 08:15 PM

elwedriddsche pic

Fer, you are so far out that it’s difficult to figure out where to start.

Borrowing from wikipedia, “science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on the scientific method, as well as to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.”

It is implicit from this definition that our knowledge of nature is limited. If we knew everything, we wouldn’t need science, would we?

Allowing that English probably isn’t your native language, your basic point appears to be that since we don’t know everything, we don’t know all the things that are true or untrue and more so, we don’t actually know anything.

With regards to the former, science does well enough and it’s up to you to demonstrate a better or even equivalent method of increasing our knowledge. With regards to the latter, that’s a problem with your epistemology.

The long and short of it is that if you want me to give a harebrained claim any thought, you better have a better case than asking me to prove a negative by exhaustive search. Furthermore, it’s up to you to demonstrate rational warrant for any other methods to allegedly gain knowledge.

Science is not a human creation, by the way—it’s the application of an abstract method, just like applied math. Religion on the other hand is a human creation and nothing but. For all its pervasive and sublimal influence of philosophy, it’s not really a field of study that increases our knowledge—it’s an intellectual Ponzi scheme that prompts more question for every attempted answer.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Fer Mexico Posted on 04/04/2008 at 10:13 PM

Fer pic

elwedriddsche: if we knew everything we actually would need science for organize the knowledge.
***
It is a lifetime for looking for another way of “looking for the greatest truth”, and it is so difficult if you are scientist and religious but i am trying, when I find something you will be the first in knew it.
***

“One thing only I know, and that is that I know nothing.”

There are truth in that words of Socrates
***
this is a link of an image of the place where I think that the secret of the “superior being” is hidden.
It is also wonderful to read about dark energy and dark matter and discover how ignorants we are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cosmological_composition.jpg
***
and, finally, thank you for all the information I think this question will still without an answer but you really guide me into my quest. I think that i don’t have more information for support my theory.

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I am good, not so good an not all the time

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