God vs. Science.

Posted by Les on Thursday, September 06, 2007 at 04:04 PM. Read 27623 times. Tags: , , , , ,
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Someone sent me a link to this blog entry at some random weblog that appears to be a new variation on the popular Evil Atheist Professor versus the True Believer student chain letter that’s been making the rounds for years. Previous versions were much shorter and attributed the student as being Albert Einstein, but this version has replaced making the student someone famous with making the fiction considerably longer. This isn’t the only blog with this email up as of late and just about every site that has it marvels over what a great bit of logic it is.

Well I’m hear to say it’s a load of crap, but first I should start by relating the sad story in question:

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, “Let me explain the problem science has with religion.” The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

“You’re a Christian, aren’t you, son?”

“Yes sir,” the student says.

“So you believe in God?”

“Absolutely.”

“Is God good?”

“Sure! God’s good.”

“Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?”

“Yes.”

“Are you good or evil?”

“The Bible says I’m evil.”

The professor grins knowingly. “Aha! The Bible!” He considers for a moment. “Here’s one for you. Let’s say there’s a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?”

“Yes sir, I would.”

“So you’re good…!”

“I wouldn’t say that.”

“But why not say that? You’d help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn’t.”

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. “He doesn’t, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?”

The student remains silent.

“No, you can’t, can you?” the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

“Let’s start again, young fella. Is God good?”

“Er…yes,” the student says.

“Is Satan good?”

The student doesn’t hesitate on this one. “No.”

“Then where does Satan come from?”

The student falters. “From God”

“That’s right. God made Satan, didn’t he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Evil’s everywhere, isn’t it? And God did make everything, correct?”

“Yes.”

“So who created evil?” The professor continued, “If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.”

Again, the student has no answer. “Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?”

The student squirms on his feet. “Yes.”

“So who created them?”

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. “Who created them?” There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. “Tell me,” he continues onto another student. “Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?”

The student’s voice betrays him and cracks. “Yes, professor, I do.”

The old man stops pacing. “Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?”

“No sir. I’ve never seen Him.”

“Then tell us if you’ve ever heard your Jesus?”

“No, sir, I have not.”

“Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?”

“No, sir, I’m afraid I haven’t.”

“Yet you still believe in him?”

“Yes.”

“According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?”

“Nothing,” the student replies. “I only have my faith.”

“Yes, faith,” the professor repeats. “And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.”

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. “Professor, is there such thing as heat?”

“Yes,” the professor replies. “There’s heat.”

“And is there such a thing as cold?”

“Yes, son, there’s cold too.”

“No sir, there isn’t.”

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. “You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don’t have anything called ‘cold’. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.”

“Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.”

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

“What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?”

“Yes,” the professor replies without hesitation. “What is night if it isn’t darkness?”

“You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it’s called darkness, isn’t it? That’s the meaning we use to define the word.”

“In reality, darkness isn’t. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?”

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. “So what point are you making, young man?”

“Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.”

The professor’s face cannot hide his surprise this time. “Flawed? Can you explain how?”

“You are working on the premise of duality,” the student explains. “You argue that there is life and then there’s death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can’t even explain a thought.”

“It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.”

“Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?”

“If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.”

“Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?”

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

“Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?”

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

“To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.”

The student looks around the room. “Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor’s brain?” The class breaks out into laughter.

“Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor’s brain, felt the professor’s brain, touched or smelt the professor’s brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.”

“So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?”

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. “I guess you’ll have to take them on faith.”

“Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,” the student continues. “Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?”

Now uncertain, the professor responds, “Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man’s inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.”

To this the student replied, “Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God’s love present in his heart. It’s like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.”

The professor sat down.

This students statements are true, can you or can you not make night darker?

Is it possible for it to get colder after absolute zero -458 degree’s F.

Can you feel,taste,see,hear,or smell your brain,

If anyone can contest this please do.

So I did. I left the following comment at the blog I pulled this from and, as it’s rather lengthy and there’s a good chance the site owner will just delete it outright, I thought I should post it here as well.

Here’s my reply:

    It’s a fictional story that’s been attributed to any number of people including Albert Einstein, but has no basis in reality. It’s also a very flawed argument that’s only really impressive to the scientifically illiterate. It’s kind of sad to see it making the rounds once again, but at least the latest incarnation isn’t attributing it to Einstein.

    Let’s start with the most obvious problem with this entire argument: The Christian God is supposedly omnipresent therefor if God is literally everywhere how can there be the absence of God anywhere? This is a fatal flaw to the Absence of God = Evil argument. Additionally there’s the problem with the simple fact that many believers commit acts of evil in spite of their belief in God and often because of their belief in God. This would also be an obstacle for the evil = absence of God argument.

    Secondly it relies on conflating two different meanings of the word faith. Namely the faith required for something that’s pretty well established—the fact that the professor does have a brain—versus the faith required for something with absolutely no evidence—the existence of God. In the former there are any number of ways to prove the existence of the professor’s brain, some of which would be extreme but definitive (open his skull and look), but a simple cat scan should suffice for most people. The existence of brains is so well established, in fact, that most Christians wouldn’t be stupid enough to question that reality in the first place.

    In comparison you’d first have to nail down exactly what you mean by the word “God”, because even among believers of the same religion there’s often a difference on opinion about the nature of God, before you could even begin to try and establish whether or not it would be possible to determine if he exists. Clearly the type of faith it would take to believe in such a being is miles beyond the faith it takes to accept our lowly professor as having a brain without resorting to cracking his head open to check, though that would at least be possible if it had to come to it.

    This particular version managed to work in the anti-evolution angle as well though that too is a flawed and incorrect argument. Evolution has been observed in both simple lab experiments and by studying fossils from antiquity. That is an entire argument unto itself, however, and more time than I wish to expend at the moment.

    Furthermore the definitions for heat/cold and light/dark demonstrate that the author of this fiction has only a limited understanding of the concepts he’s writing about. The whole paragraph where the student explains the concept of heat is wrong, but most people aren’t scientifically literate enough to grasp that fact. They just see a lot of scientific words and their eyes glaze over and they think something really intelligent was said.

    The author contends that “heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy” and that is flat out wrong as heat is actually the transfer of energy caused by a temperature difference. If two systems are not in thermal equilibrium with each other then heat transfer will occur with the flow going from the higher temperature system to the lower temperature system until thermal equilibrium is obtained. Or, in other words, if one system is hot and the other one is cold then heat will transfer from one to the other until they are the same temperature. The statement that we can have “super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat” is just nonsense. The author is conflating the word “heat” with the word “hot” the latter of which is, like “cold”, a relative term describing the temperature of an object in relation to something else.

    So too the author goes on to demonstrate only a partial understanding of light and dark. He starts by conflating the scientific definition of light, which includes the entire electromagnetic spectrum, with what is known as “visible light.” What we refer to as dark is actually just a low level of visible light, but not the absence of light as is claimed in the text. Even in the total absence of visible light all objects will continue to give off infrared and gamma radiation due to heat transfer and as such there is no absence of light at all even though you can’t see. A simple pair of infrared goggles is all it takes to see in the darkest of environments. In order to remove all light you’d have to remove all energy (absolute zero) which isn’t possible to do outside of the realm of theoretical mathematics.

    So the answers to the questions at the end of this missive end up as follows: Yes, you could make night “darker” by blocking out more and more of the electromagnetic spectrum. No, you can’t make something colder than absolute zero because that’s the point when a system has no energy. For that matter it’s not possible to reach absolute zero either, though you can get close and matter starts to do some funky stuff at those temperatures. Yes, you can feel, taste, see, hear, and smell your brain if you really wanted to, but some of those would be messy and probably leave you damaged in the process. For some folks, though, it might be an experiment worth undertaking.

Please feel free to chime in with any other flaws you find in either the original story or my rebuttal.

Comments:

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cubiclegrrl United States Posted on 09/06/2007 at 04:24 PM

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Back to high school science class with the git who wrote this!  Crikey...I can’t even begin with this. 

A modest proposal, though:  I think that anybody who denies evolution should be made to put their money where their mouth is by being treated with the genetic equivalent of the first penicillin ever made.  Because if evolution doesn’t happen, then obviously the whole idea of drug-resistant microorganisms is a hoax, right?

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 09/06/2007 at 04:50 PM

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Les, if you left your comment on the blog you first link to, it’s gone. Only fanboys welcome…

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Bahamat United Kingdom Posted on 09/06/2007 at 05:20 PM

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A play between 2 sock puppets that heads in a pre-decided, biassed direction, that gives no chance for questions because it assumes it answers everything. A common trick and one I don’t give time for - I don’t seriously think I’m going to get through to this kinda guy in one hit, and he wouldn’t give me time for more than one, if he read any replies at all.

Les - It’s good practise that you replied (and a vent), but I don’t seriously think the writer/target audience is going to read and think on it. Conversations allow you to get a stronger connection and force them (a tad more) to think in order to respond - when they won’t respond they won’t often read

But as the one who makes entries, I realise you’re bound to your role and I appreciate the time you give.

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

Macprincess United States Posted on 09/06/2007 at 05:29 PM

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I think that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, God gave us the ability to choose for ourselves.
He will not force you to believe what He says or not.
I don’t think there is any reason to attack you or the original poster.
You are both expressing your opinions on what you believe is true.
I do agree with one of you,
But regardless of that,
I am not going to put down your thoughts or his,
But i also don’t think either of you should say bad things about each other,
Because (like i said in the beginning) You are both entitled to your own opinion

Bahamat United Kingdom Posted on 09/06/2007 at 05:42 PM

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Macprincess- We are entitled to our own opinions, but we come here to debate, to test our ideas, to gain new ones and make our own available, it’s like one big exchange. We come here prepared for conflict and can be emotionally strengthened by it. Ultimately we know the deal when we choose to comment.

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

joseph United States Posted on 09/06/2007 at 05:44 PM

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hey bro thanks for the blog comment you should check out my other ones. I just would like some positive statements please no more dumb comments it just makes me look better. btw i like your Omish beard

joseph United States Posted on 09/06/2007 at 05:53 PM

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i did not choose to be a subject of your debate this was stolen from my site. i was unwilling people have the right to there own moral views and belief systems. understand i don’t want my blog on here. as for mac princess she is right.

Bahamat United Kingdom Posted on 09/06/2007 at 06:05 PM

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Joseph - You decided to release it into a publicly-viewable domain (your site), when you do that you cannot restrain the public from talking about it, it’s not even possible to, and you have to accept that as a consequence of the decision.

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

MisterMook United States Posted on 09/06/2007 at 06:09 PM

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Why are Christians so often illiterate?

Terrorance Canada Posted on 09/06/2007 at 06:17 PM

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hey bro thanks for the blog comment you should check out my other ones. I just would like some positive statements please no more dumb comments it just makes me look better. btw i like your Omish beard. // i did not choose to be a subject of your debate this was stolen from my site. i was unwilling people have the right to there own moral views and belief systems. understand i don’t want my blog on here. as for mac princess she is right.

If the comment was dumb and made him look “better” why did he remove it?

I read Les’ response above. I have to say, unlike the other comments Joseph received, it was well written and thought out. So that leaves me to believe that Joseph removed the comment to protect his fragile ego and his shallow Christian faith.  I’m not really all that surprised though. Anyone who needs a spam letter to reinforce their faith, would be most afraid to have their ideals so wholly challenged.

Bahamat United Kingdom Posted on 09/06/2007 at 06:18 PM

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MM- Perhaps both are caused by the same thing, or maybe in part their subculture is more casual on that issue (here and in the atheist community it seems more looked down upon because of the assumption that one is indicative of the other, as intellectual snobbism).

It doesn’t affect the level of validity of the points itself, let go of that you think about a person to deal with the pure issue.

Terrorance- Anyone who needs a spam letter to reinforce their faith, would be most afraid to have their ideals so wholly challenged

Good point, they’re actually afraid, it undermines their security, what’s keeping them sane. It needs a dramatic forceful event to force them to deal with it and find another route to sanity

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

Les United States Posted on 09/06/2007 at 06:29 PM

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Elwed, not surprising at all that it’s gone. I expected as much.

Macprincess, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong it happens to be. I apologize if I was wrong in thinking you wanted the truth and not just empty platitudes to make you feel warm and fuzzy about us nasty atheists. I should’ve known better.

Joseph, it would take a lot more than this to make you look better based on the content and form of your replies thus far. My statement was positive, but you can’t seem to handle having your beliefs challenged. As for the content being stolen from your site, hardly. I’ve already pointed out that you’re hardly the first to post said content and you added next to nothing original to it. I’m willing to bet you either saw it someplace else and copied it or you got it in an email. Various forms of it have been around for years as can be seen in this entry on Snopes.com. Again, like Macprincess, you’re entitled to your views no matter how idiotic they are, but if you post them on the Internet where the public at large can see them then I have a right to point out what an idiot you are for holding them.

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When one reads Bibles, one is less surprised at what the Deity knows than at what He doesn’t know.
-- Mark Twain

joseph United States Posted on 09/06/2007 at 06:38 PM

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hey bro first off i liked your beard thats why i posted and how come you didn’t post the original content. oh and challeng my belefs all you want i like free speech. Your very inteligent i like that but im not i have no answers i simply like this blog.

you want an example of stuped look at me im a drop out i just like cool stuff. and please comment on my other stuff just limit it. i think that was longer than my blog.

ps thanks for the comments

Les United States Posted on 09/06/2007 at 06:40 PM

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Well, I have to admit, you’ve come up with an argument I can’t refute in that last comment. Thanks for the beard compliment.

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When one reads Bibles, one is less surprised at what the Deity knows than at what He doesn’t know.
-- Mark Twain

Bahamat United Kingdom Posted on 09/06/2007 at 06:52 PM

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Joseph - don’t give up on youself, you can match us if you have the determination to analyse the world, give yourself a chance, we’ll give you all the time you need, we’ll provide you with thoughts and vice versa.

Anyone is capable of virtually anything as long as they’re determined. As long as you’re determined you’ll ultimately succeed at whatever you’re trying to do, within the limits of science of course

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

Last_Hussar United Kingdom Posted on 09/06/2007 at 07:43 PM

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The follwing from me is waiting moderation on Josephp304’s blog

Sorry, but this fiction has all the intellectual rigour of “Barry Bonds has never won a Superbowl, ergo Barry Bonds is not a sports man.”

1) It would be perfectly possible to sense the professors brain, though he would probably be resistant to the idea of cranial surgery.  Perhaps the student could go first?

2) Cold is a superlative that decribes a perception. Cold is just a temperature that the perceiver defines to himself, not a fixed temperature.  An Eskimo has a different definition of cold to a Egyptian. Hot/Cold is a personal thing, where temperature is a constant that can be defined in precise scientific terms.  Conversly religeon defines ‘Good’ and ‘evil’ as things in themselves.  However absence of one does not mean that the other replaces it.  If I play say Tetris, a game with no moral message one way or the other, I am not being Good, but nor am I being Evil, yet if God is Good and absence of God is Evil, then I must be one or the other.  If someone commits an evil act in the name of god (genuinely believing it to be divine command), is that an evil act?

3) Evolution has been observed over a number of different time periods, both in nature and in the lab.  The evidence of evolution is fairly solidly understood, and biologists are able to make predictions in advance of testing new species, which the empirical evidence bears out.

3.5)Re scientific ‘proof’. 1,000 years ago lightning was not understood. The explanation was that a god of some form did it.  Today we know that lightning is build up of static electricity caused by water molecules rubbing together, which then earths itself.  This leads to 1 of three possibilities. i)It’s always been static electricity, the god explanation was always wrong. ii) a god used to do it, until we figured out the physics, then he put it on auto or iii)Physics is wrong, a god still does it.  My point is absence of full understanding does not imply God, it merely shows our lack of knowledge.  Where Science conflicts with the ‘godidit’ explanation why should we continue to believe that the god actually did it?  Faith is belief in the absence of evidence.  Given that there can be no evidence, or faith would not be needed, why should we believe any one religeon to the exclusivity of all others.  Why is faith is Ganesh less than Faith in Yahweh?

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“Pickles are evil”
- K Patrick Glover, 10 June 2007

Solonor United States Posted on 09/07/2007 at 01:04 AM

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I don’t know if my comment will make it there, either, so here it is, for what it’s worth.

The problem is that the story (which is just a silly chain letter that’s been passed around the internet for years) doesn’t make logical sense. I’m a Christian, and I don’t appreciate either the leaps of logic the “professor” tries to make or those of the student. The former uses simplistic views of God and religion in a parody of “what atheists believe” to make him sound like he’s initially got the upper hand, but leaving the supposedly Christian reader with a feeling of “ah ha! we’ve got him now!” The latter is just ignorant of science and makes the comparison that faith in God (or any divine being or force) is the same thing as belief in obvious natural principles that have been (or can be) easily proven.

It doesn’t do anyone of faith any kind of service to display such foolishness. It just makes it harder on those of us with a brain AND faith in God to be heard over the din of Bible-thumping morons who proudly wear their stupidity like a badge of honor.

Les United States Posted on 09/07/2007 at 07:24 AM

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A most excellent response, Solonor.

I feel a little bad about picking on poor Joseph here as it’s clear he’s an easy target. Especially when so many others appear to be falling for the same nonsense.

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When one reads Bibles, one is less surprised at what the Deity knows than at what He doesn’t know.
-- Mark Twain

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 09/07/2007 at 09:06 AM

elwedriddsche pic

(MM) Why are Christians so often illiterate?

You should rephrase this to read: Why are the fundamentalist Christians coming to this site or engaging in apologia elsewhere so often illiterate?

As far as I know, there’s a negative correlation between a higher education and adherence to religious belief. I suspect that this negative correlation is particularly pronounced for fundamentalists.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Bahamat United Kingdom Posted on 09/07/2007 at 04:14 PM

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Solonor: It just makes it harder on those of us with a brain AND faith in God to be heard over the din of Bible-thumping morons who proudly wear their stupidity like a badge of honor

Thinking about it, emotions (of self) reign high for a fundie. Maybe they have faith because they need it?

Ignorance can protect pride, maybe emotions are feuling the barrier to what we’re trying to do (fear of the loss of pride and security, etc), cut that emotional connection and the resistence will stop, but only time and scenario can make that cut, even then gradually

Les: Especially when so many others appear to be falling for the same nonsense.

I think Joseph didn’t need as much work as some of the others, all need to reach that point, but I agree that he’s moved up a league and so is lower priority and also agree that with that comes a different approach with the different set of needs.

Helping victims (which he was) is one thing but stopping the root cause bigots is not a role I am easily capable of with words unless I can force them to think. They need emotional feedback more than anything.

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

Michael Peacock United States Posted on 09/07/2007 at 06:11 PM

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Bahamat: Anyone is capable of virtually anything as long as they’re determined.

That’s a popular misconception.  Determination doesn’t beat incompetence

Les: Especially when so many others appear to be falling for the same nonsense.

It’s been on again/off again for me, but I was just writing about that today because some troll said something stupid on my blog in a comment about my Sylvia Browne post.  Here they were, spewing skepticism about my documented arguments while defending the kookiness of a pretend psychic.  It got me thinking that people must believe skepticism is impolite, and so many are therefore overly trusting and willing to give kooks the benefit of the doubt.  In addition, flame bait posts like the one on joseph’s blog just reinforce the stereotype of the impolite, atheist, skeptical scientist who has a fundamentally flawed (ie - not christian) worldview.

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“When the government fears the people, it is liberty. When the people fear the government, it is tyranny.”
-- Thomas Payne

My Name is Michael - Brother Neutron Bomb of Uncanny Honesty - Peacock, and I write at The Smug Baldy Speaks

Bahamat United Kingdom Posted on 09/07/2007 at 06:19 PM

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MP: That’s a popular misconception.  Determination doesn’t beat incompetence.

Rocognising and attempting to end incompetence as far as possible is one thing you’d do automatically if you were determined. People are often capable of far more than they’d ever willingly push themselves to, I have yet to see anybody hit their peak potential

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

oscar United Kingdom Posted on 09/07/2007 at 06:30 PM

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you forgot to mention his incredibly flawed evolution argument. we didn’t evolve from monkeys, there was a species which split humans from monkeys, the missing link. it didnt go monkey > human, but X > monkey and X > human

i think ;o

Todd United States Posted on 09/07/2007 at 07:29 PM

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Well put, Les.

R Pare United States Posted on 09/07/2007 at 09:46 PM

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Joseph

So sad...an extra inthe play of life who has not realized his true state.
But you do advance the plot.

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