Go read the Atheist Ethicist.

Posted by Les on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 at 11:23 AM. Read 2051 times. Tags:
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I’ve been working on expanding the number of blogs I read regularly in general and the ones dealing with atheism in particular. In my wanderings I came across Alonzo Fyfe’s blog called Atheist Ethicist and it’s quickly become a daily read. Alonzo explores the realms of ethics and morality from the standpoint of an atheist and he puts forth a number of excellent arguments on everything from Secular vs Non-Secular Acceptance of Torture to The Limits of Religious Tolerance and he’s already helped me to clarify my own thinking on several of these topics in doing so. I don’t know how widely read his blog is, but I’d like to do my part to raise awareness of it.

In my experience most folks haven’t spent a lot of time examining the reasons why they have and hold certain moral viewpoints—this is true of atheists as much as it is any believer—and when it comes time to explain to other people why their particular viewpoint is correct, or even valid, they have a hard time articulating those reasons because they’ve not really thought about them all that much. Most often they’ve heard the viewpoint from someone else and it just seemed to make sense to them so they accepted it as correct. I like to think I’ve spent more time than most, but I have to admit that there’s been more than one viewpoint I’ve simply accepted as correct without devoting much thought to it and have been caught with my pants down when called on to explain my reasoning.

This is what makes Atheist Ethicist such a valuable blog. Alonzo has clearly spent a considerable bit of time not only thinking about his views, but studying various moral and ethical frameworks and he can argue his stance versus other proposed models very effectively. Occasionally it gets a bit thick in the tech-speak of ethics discussion and may make you a bit cross-eyed trying to follow along if you haven’t had similar training, but it’s worth the effort to work your way through it as you may be surprised at what you learn about yourself along the way. Take for example his most recent entry on Media Bias:

Last night, I read the article. “I Agree With You, Completely” from Jack Shafer on Slate.com. Slater’s article discusses what he called “a math-heavy paper” called “Media Bias and Reputation,” written by two economists, Matthew Gentzko and Jesse M. Shapiro.

One of the findings that the pair reported was that if you own a news outlet (or, I assume, a blog), and you want your audience to be objective, you will tell your [audience] what they want (expect) to hear. If you should tell your audience something that they do not already believe, they will be more likely to attribute your claims to your lack of objectivity than to their own bias. In short, media acquire a reputation for ‘objectivity’ by slanting news stories so that they conform to their audience’s preconceptions.

From this beginning Alonzo discusses some other related findings and what some folks really seem to mean when they claim that someone else isn’t being ‘objective’ or is showing ‘bias’ based on what these studies show us to be actually happening in our heads. He proposes that instead of trying to consider how ‘objective’ someone is we should consider how honestly or accurately they’ve provided both sides of an issue:

I sometimes think that the concept of “objectivity” was invented by people with poor arguments as a way of arguing that others pretend that their position has more strength than it actually has. “If you point out my false assumptions and blatantly invalid reasoning, then you are not being objective,” is an effective way to hide false assumptions and invalid reasoning.

In place of objectivity, I would like to substitute honesty. “Has the author presented the case on each side of the issue accurately?” It may well be the case that “accuracy” in this case simply supports the conclusion, “Those people are wrong.” The people who say that the earth is flat are wrong. There is nothing wrong with saying that.

Finally his conclusion for this entry should cause you to take a moment to consider your own beliefs and how you arrived at them:

Here, once again, we need to return to the studies that I cited above. They say that an individual may do a good job in identifying the mistakes made by a partisan writer for “the other side,” whatever side that is. At the same time, they tend to blind themselves to the contradictions and inconsistencies to the writers working on the author’s own side. If you find yourself agreeing with somebody, this does not mean that he is right. In fact, it means that you should not trust yourself to determine whether he or she is right. You may be blinding yourself to the contradictions and inconsistencies carried within his argument.

All of this argues in favor of being a bit skeptical of one’s own beliefs. And that hearing or reading somebody who agrees with you is poor evidence that you are right. It argues in favor of recognizing the possibility of error and listening well to critics.

Strangely, people blame the media for media bias. Ultimately, it seems, the problem does not come from the media, but from us. We are too quick to grant the label of “objective” to those who have merely demonstrated the capacity to say what we want to believe, and to deny objectivity based on nothing more than the fact that the speaker or writer does not share our opinions.

Rational and responsible thought requires a bit more effort than that.

Of course I’ve only snipped small segments of the essay and you really should go read the whole thing, but I hope this gets across why I think he’s got such a great blog that should be widely read by everyone, believers and non-believers, alike. For those of us who value reason and rationality it’ll help you to understand your own way of thinking a bit more as well as help you to spot when you’re making mistakes and for those believers who are always asking how an atheist can have any morals without a God to enforce them it’ll provide some of the answers they’re looking for. Good stuff and highly recommended.

Comments:

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Justin United States Posted on 04/05/2006 at 04:08 PM

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I think Hume’s Is-Ought problem is insoluble for atheists (although rationalists from Kant to Searle to Nagel have tried).

If there is no God, then there is no objective morality. You can no more point to objective morality than you can to the tooth fairy. Where would objective morals even come from? Surely not the big bang. Evolution? All evolution tells us is that cooperation is a survival tool for a social animal. It doesn’t tell us that we *have* to cooperate even if we don’t want to.

The closest thing you can come to rational atheist ethics is contractualism. No one wants to be killed, so by coopoerating and forming governments we can minimize the chances that a would-be tyrant will kill or oppress us. That creates a civil and (reasonably) just society, but the motivation is still not submitting to a system of ethics. It is self-interest.

The irony is that ever since Hume and Kant, Christians have abandoned rationalist proofs of God in favor of empirical arguments (a lot of atheists including Einstein - his greatest blunder - had difficulty accepting the Big Bang because of its theistic implications. They wanted a steady-state eternal universe). But since there are no empirical arguments for objective morals, atheists are stuck in a pre-Hume mindset trying to create rationalist arguments for objective morals.

jeffercine United States Posted on 04/05/2006 at 06:46 PM

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Thank you Les!  I have now added this site next to yours on my daily review. 

However, when I first started to read through some of the posts there, my brain hurt.  Of course, I sum it up to him making me think and question as I read, plus the fact that my boss keeps interupting me to socialize.  bleh.  grin

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Sadie Jane United States Posted on 04/05/2006 at 11:08 PM

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Whoa, heavy. But very impressive! Fyfe is a great thinker.

Welcome back, Jeffercine!

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THEOCRAT United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 12:18 AM

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I don’t have time to do an extensive analysis of any of his posts or his site, so I did the next best thing.  I ran a keyword search on his websites of all of the biggest names in ethics in the last 2500 years, names you would hear in a intro to philosophy course or short series of the history of philosophy courses.  I found a very small percentage of names and even ethical theories referenced.  He mentions Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, Aquinas, Hume, and utilitarianism.  He says he spent 12 years in school, but he deosn’t say what he got his undergrad in or if he even finished his graduate degree or what that was in.  It is apparent he has done some reading in ethics, but in my opinion he is a far cry from any kind of expert in the field.  I suspect he would get his butt handed to him if he debated an actual professor of ethics from a respectable university.

THEOCRAT United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 12:43 AM

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Oh yeah, I did read the Slate article that Fyfe discusses and would simply like to introduce Hans-Georg Gadamer who plays Obviousman in response to the research of these economists.  Gadamer suggested in 1960 that all humans are naturally and always prejudiced and the only way to become more “objective” was to realize our prejudices and constantly challenge them by comparing them to other people’s prejudices.  Of course no one likes to know that they are really an idiot so most people skip the realizing and challenging part and just accept what agrees with them.

The application question is how many ideologically different sources do you get your news from?  Looking through my bookmarks I have a communist news source, three anarchist news sources, a neo-nazi news source, two capitalist news sources, three liberal news sources, WorldNetDaily and the usual choice of tv news sources.  So on the rare occasion I bother to read news, I’d say I’m not doing to bad at challenging my prejudices.  How’s everyone else doing?

zilch Austria Posted on 04/06/2006 at 01:59 AM

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But since there are no empirical arguments for objective morals, atheists are stuck in a pre-Hume mindset trying to create rationalist arguments for objective morals.

If, by “objective”, you mean something like “grounded in pure reason” or “reducible to a logical evaluation of incontrovertible facts”, Justin, I would agree with you.  In the absense of a First Cause, a Telos who decides what’s right and wrong, there can be no absolutely objective morals.

However, since Darwin came along, this kind of objectivity has been defenestrated along with the tooth fairy- although many philosophers and religious thinkers seem to have missed out.  Before there was life on Earth, there was no right or wrong, no morals, no free will, no “why”.  They evolved along with life, and for good or ill, are just as messy and complicated as life itself.

Morals are part of the design of civilization- they help us balance the needs of individuals with the needs of society, so that we can reap the benefits of being part of something larger and more complex than ourselves.  Being the social animals that we are, our needs and desires are a complex and to some extent self-contradictory mishmash, and getting all of us to agree well enough to make culture is akin to a juggling act on a tightrope.  No absolutes, no objectivity.

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zilch Austria Posted on 04/06/2006 at 03:44 AM

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I suspect he would get his butt handed to him if he debated an actual professor of ethics from a respectable university.

Given that “ethics” is a subject approximately as objective as “philosophy”, the conclusions to be drawn from a putative butt-handing one way or another are moot.  Who do you suppose would win in a “debate” between a Catholic priest and a Muslim imam?

So on the rare occasion I bother to read news, I’d say I’m not doing to bad at challenging my prejudices.

Speaking of challenging prejudices, have you gotten around to reading Darwin’s Dangerous Idea yet, theo? LOL

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Les United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 08:26 AM

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Justin writes…

I think Hume’s Is-Ought problem is insoluble for atheists (although rationalists from Kant to Searle to Nagel have tried).

From what I understand, Hume’s Is-Ought is a tough one for religious moralists as well. As for the atheists I’ve seen a number of different takes at the problem that seem to resolve it just fine. Alonzo Fyfe address it in explaining ”Desire Utilitarianism”, which is his personal theory on morals. The explanation he gives for the Is-Ought problem is rather lengthy so I’ll leave it as an exercise for those interested to go read it for yourselves. Personally, I don’t see a lot of problems with it, but then I’m not a philosophy major either.

Theocrat writes…

He says he spent 12 years in school, but he deosn’t say what he got his undergrad in or if he even finished his graduate degree or what that was in.

That’s what you get for trying to “skim” his site with a keyword search. Had you actually taken some time to poke around a bit you would have come across this in Chapter 21 of his book on Desire Utilitarianism:

    I also had money problems at the time. I had been going to school on an assistanceship from the Philosophy Department. But, after six years there, that money was coming to an end. So, I had to start thinking about what I was going to do for income.

    This tied in with another concern; making a living. Whenever I told people that I was working on a PhD in moral philosophy, they asked me what I would do with that degree.

    The standard answer is, “teach?. This was about the only thing one could do with a degree in philosophy. In fact, the department had warned its graduate school applicants to think twice about pursuing an advanced degree in this field — there were not enough jobs for the candidates that survived graduate school.
    ...
    If I did get my PhD, I worried that this would interfere with my ability to land a real job. I would be considered a poor risk — somebody simply marking time until the right opportunity came along. In fact, I asked the person who hired me for my first full-time job after college if I would have been hired if I had gotten the PhD. She said, “No.?

    When I tell this story, the person I am telling it to often answers that I could have gotten the degree and kept it secret.

    Get a PhD in ethics, and then lie about it. There is something about that option that strikes me as being a bit… well… inconsistent.

He goes on to explain that he did not finish his PhD due to the reality of life intruding on his plans.

Try actually looking around his site instead of taking a shortcut and perhaps you won’t look quite so foolish when you start making proclamations about his fitness to discuss morality.

It is apparent he has done some reading in ethics, but in my opinion he is a far cry from any kind of expert in the field.

Considering the rather piss-poor manner you took to arrive at your conclusion you’ll excuse me if I don’t place much value in it.

Also I don’t believe I ever claimed he was an expert, just that he was a good read who’ll make you think a bit about your own viewpoints which I think would be of benefit for a lot of folks.

I suspect he would get his butt handed to him if he debated an actual professor of ethics from a respectable university.

Perhaps, but then so would I and yet you seem to think there is some value in reading what I have to say.

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Justin United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 08:40 AM

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However, since Darwin came along, this kind of objectivity has been defenestrated along with the tooth fairy- although many philosophers and religious thinkers seem to have missed out.  ...

Morals are part of the design of civilization- they help us balance the needs of individuals with the needs of society, so that we can reap the benefits of being part of something larger and more complex than ourselves. 

Hiya Zilch!

I’ve already addressed this point in my first post: “All evolution tells us is that cooperation is a survival tool for a social animal. It doesn’t tell us that we *have* to cooperate even if we don’t want to.”

Let me expand on that. Opposable thumbs are also a survival tool. They are great for making spears and typing on keyboards, but they are not very useful for running or verbal communication. If our self-interest is best advanced by not using opposable thumbs, then we should do so.

The same principle applies to social cooperation. Since we are a social species we can best advance our self-interest by being cooperative and helpful towards our fellow humans. Even if cooperating means sacrificing the short run, we will typically benefit in the long run. But if there is a situation in which we can best advance our self-interests (and our reproductive fitness) by sticking a knife in someone’s back - we enhance our evolutionary success by doing so.

The point of morality is that it has a claim on our actions, even when that action is detrimental our self-interests. In fact, that is precisely what we believe that morality to be! Evolution does not work. The best an atheist can do with the evolutionary argument is say that the best way to selfishly pursue our own self-interest is by (generally) cooperating.

Justin United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 09:51 AM

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Hiya Les!

From what I understand, Hume’s Is-Ought is a tough one for religious moralists as well.

It depends (doesn’t it always?)

Some Christian philosphers want to be a modern day St. Thomas Aquinas. But if they want to come up with a philosophical defense of Christianity independent, then it is indeed a tough problem. OTOH, if you simply rely on the Bible as the word of God, then the is-ought problem is solved. This presupposes the existence of Christian God, but you will have a much easier time making headway using empirical arguments for the existence of a Christian God than you will using a priori arguments to deduce is from ought.

As for the atheists I’ve seen a number of different takes at the problem that seem to resolve it just fine. Alonzo Fyfe address it in explaining “Desire Utilitarianism?, which is his personal theory on morals.

Two points:

1. Utilitarianism is a philosopher’s system of ethics. It reminds me of George Orwell’s quote: “there are some ideas so preposterous that only an intellectual can believe them.” I doubt many of the atheists on this board are utilitarians. Even for those who think it makes sense, I’ll bet they don’t believe in utilitarianism in their heart.

But on the strictly intellectual level there are a whole bunch of reasons not to be a utilitarian. For example: (1) any system of ethics for which slavery and genocide are not automatically disqualified should itself be disqualified. (2) do you really believe that the desire to sexually abuse and torture small children deserves equal status with the desire to help the poor? (3) since the point is that we weight everyone’s desires/preferences/happiness, then logically that means ethical behavior means people freely consider the desires/preferences/happiness of others for each action they take. But I think most people would reject that for the following reason.

Consider a world of just you and Daryl: to be ethical you should become half-Christian (since that is Daryl’s desire) and Daryl should become half-atheist (since that is your desire). But don’t we all feel intuitively that ethics should respect our “personal space” and individuality unless there is some actual harm being done? Shouldn’t a proper system of ethics allow you to be fully atheist and Daryl to be fully Christian?

2. This last point leads to the is-ought problem. Fyfe gets around the is-ought problem because he defines “good” and “bad” as being that which fulfills or thwarts desires. If I were a happiness utilitarian I could just as easily define “good” and “bad” to be that which promotes or inhibits happiness. If I were dignity utilitarian like (IIRC) Pettit, then I would define “good” and “bad” to be that which promotes or harms human dignity. This last on in particular leads to very different consequences. Dignity utilitarian was designed to thwart the slavery objection I raised earlier (although it still fails to do, but that is another post for another day).

Or let’s move beyond utilitarianism. Natural rights, Kantian, and Golden Rule ethics all have very different definitions of “good” and “bad” than utilitarianism. If I were an atheist like Nietzsche, I might define “good” to be “that which makes Justin happy.”

Philosophy gives us the logic to talk about beliefs and imperatives. Fyfe really enjoys this logical side of philosophy. But in all cases, we still have to start with a definition of “good.” But what if I disagree with that definition?

zilch Austria Posted on 04/06/2006 at 10:41 AM

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“All evolution tells us is that cooperation is a survival tool for a social animal. It doesn’t tell us that we *have* to cooperate even if we don’t want to.?

Howdy Justin!  This could turn out to be a very long discussion, but I need to clear up this one point right away.  Evolution tells us a great deal more than that “cooperation is a survival tool"- it helps show us why sex is fun, and why it is contentious, for instance.  But ultimately, unless one chooses to be some kind of Social Darwinist, evolution does not tell us how to behave- so I agree with you there, that an atheist can’t get to an objective “ought” from “is”.

This is assuming that “objective” means what I said above: “grounded in pure reason? or “reducible to a logical evaluation of incontrovertible facts?.  And there’s the rub.  As an atheist darwinist, I don’t believe that any such beast as “objectivity” exists for morals.  In fact, one of the reasons religions have evolved, imho, is precisely because morals are 1) necessary to build societies, and 2) not groundable on “first principles”.  Thus, an authority is needed to wield the carrots and sticks so that people toe the line.  Who better than someone who can roast us after we’re dead, or offer us 72 virgins?

But in all cases, we still have to start with a definition of “good.? But what if I disagree with that definition?

Exactly.  That’s a toughie, all right.  What I believe evolution, and life, teach us, is that while there are many things that are good, there is no one absolute good.  And no two person’s definitions of “good” are ever going to agree perfectly.  So any philosophy, religion, or form of government, that devises morals or laws for behavior, is baking a cake that will not be anyone’s favorite, but will (hopefully) be enjoyed by most.  We can’t do any better than that.

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Consigliere United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 11:15 AM

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So any philosophy, religion, or form of government, that devises morals or laws for behavior, is baking a cake that will not be anyone’s favorite, but will (hopefully) be enjoyed by most.  We can’t do any better than that.

So why the standard objection to the “imposition of the majority’s mores upon the minority” if the goal is cake that makes the most happy?

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Ulfrekr United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 11:38 AM

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Justin, you said

That creates a civil and (reasonably) just society, but the motivation is still not submitting to a system of ethics. It is self-interest.

How is it any less self-interested to base your actions on whether or not God will get ticked off and send you to hell? In fact, isn’t Christian ethics MORE self-interested than secular ethics, since secular ethicists don’t presume that any ethical action will ultimately be rewarded?

If there is no God, then there is no objective morality. You can no more point to objective morality than you can to the tooth fairy.

Exactly. How does that contradict reality? I’m no expert in this area, but it seems to me that morality is socially constructed, predicated on human evolutionary traits such as empathy, and I haven’t seen a whole lot of evidence presented to contradict that point other than “But wouldn’t it be nice if...”

All evolution tells us is that cooperation is a survival tool for a social animal. It doesn’t tell us that we *have* to cooperate even if we don’t want to.

But we don’t *have* to cooperate if we don’t want to. We’ve just evolved ways of making most people want to cooperate. In fact, one of the reasons I’m skeptical of religion is that it so obviously fulfills this function. “Hmm...I am a person who wants to survive, and to do so at a certain level of comfort. As such, I need my society to survive. In order for that to happen, I need everyone to cooperate. What the best way to make everyone cooperate? Oh, I know! I’ll tell everyone that no matter how sneaky they are, if they don’t cooperate, someone will magically know and punish them for it! This will be so much easier than coming up with a rational explanation and somehow communicating it to everyone, plus it will introduce an element of enforcement through fear that no human institution possible could.”

The point of morality is that it has a claim on our actions, even when that action is detrimental our self-interests. In fact, that is precisely what we believe that morality to be!

I’m not sure I agree with that. Let’s say I run into a burning building to save a baby. Most people would agree this is a moral action, and it also seems to go against my own self-interest, since there’s a good chance I could suffer bodily harm. But it’s only against my self interest if you narrowly define that term. I would run into a building to save a burning baby because I would feel bad if that baby died when I might have prevented it. I would think about how terrified the baby must have been, and how sad its parents would be if it died. To me, avoiding this feeling might be more important than avoiding physical harm. So, I would save the baby, and it would be moral, but it would also have been self-interested. It seems to me that the only way to truly do something without any consideration towards self-interest is accidentally or impulsively.

Again, I say, religious morality doesn’t teach us to act counter to our self-interests; it just tells us that our self-interest in life is secondary to our self-interest in an unknowable eternity (where the consequences of our actions are potentially much, much scarier or much, much nicer than ever possible in the living world).

Evolution does not work.

Unless, of course, we view the development of religious morality as an inevitable phase of human evolution. Justin, you seem to make the common mistake of presuming that since Christianity has had a fair degree of social utility (depending on the extent to which it has been practiced in a socially-useful way), then it must be literally true. In my mind, that very utility supports an opposite conclusion; rarely does reality perfectly conform to human needs.

Ulfrekr United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 11:47 AM

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So any philosophy, religion, or form of government, that devises morals or laws for behavior, is baking a cake that will not be anyone’s favorite, but will (hopefully) be enjoyed by most.  We can’t do any better than that.

So why the standard objection to the “imposition of the majority’s mores upon the minority? if the goal is cake that makes the most happy?

Because the recipe calls for fruit, dammit.

Consigliere United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 11:56 AM

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So any philosophy, religion, or form of government, that devises morals or laws for behavior, is baking a cake that will not be anyone’s favorite, but will (hopefully) be enjoyed by most.  We can’t do any better than that.

So why the standard objection to the “imposition of the majority’s mores upon the minority? if the goal is cake that makes the most happy?

Because the recipe calls for fruit, dammit.

That was quick and witty.  Seems to me though that as much as it made me laugh, any objection to said cake, sans fruit, really amounts to whining about other people not liking fruit and that’s about it.  If most of us don’t want fruit in our cake no fruit it should be, regardless of what you think makes a good recipe.

Majority rules under that system.

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Justin United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 12:28 PM

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Back at ya, Zilch

What I believe evolution, and life, teach us, is that while there are many things that are good, there is no one absolute good.  And no two person’s definitions of “good? are ever going to agree perfectly.  So any philosophy, religion, or form of government, that devises morals or laws for behavior, is baking a cake that will not be anyone’s favorite, but will (hopefully) be enjoyed by most.  We can’t do any better than that.

I think we are in some agreement. Here is what I said in my first comment: The closest thing you can come to rational atheist ethics is contractualism. No one wants to be killed, so by cooperating and forming governments we can minimize the chances that a would-be tyrant will kill or oppress us. That creates a civil and (reasonably) just society, but the motivation is still not submitting to a system of ethics. It is self-interest.

Let me offer what I call the Office Space Challenge. Suppose you stumble across the remains of someone’s aborted embezzlement scheme. Because it is someone else’s, all the evidence points to them; it is unlikely you would get caught. Is it wrong to take the money?

If there are objective morals then it is wrong. But if the are only evolutionary mechanisms that typically reward cooperation, then it is not wrong. Instead the rational approach would be to weigh the risk of getting caught versus the rewards.

The general point I am making is this: atheists are making more out of the evolution of cooperative behavior than it deserves. All it teaches is that cooperation advances our self-interest. Thus, the real lesson of evolutionary morals is that we want to advance our self-interests. Cooperation is usually (but not always) a good way to do so.

Justin United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 12:56 PM

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Hiya Ulf!

How is it any less self-interested to base your actions on whether or not God will get ticked off and send you to hell? In fact, isn’t Christian ethics MORE self-interested than secular ethics

Two points:

1. Most Christians scholars subscribe to “faith, not works.” Being good will not get you into Heaven and being bad will not keep you out. Only faith that does that, so self-interest does not play a role. However, once you believe in God you will probably want to obey Him - even if He has said that faith alone will get you into Heaven. Thus Christian ethics works against our self-interest (although in many cases the evolutionary argument holds - selfless actions often have earthly rewards)

2. Even if it were works that got you into Heaven, God has aligned our real self-interests with moral behavior. This is not true of our earthly self-interests. Suppose I found your wallet on the ground. My earthly self-interest is to keep it. But my Godly self-interest is to mail it to you.

Alonzo Fyfe United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 01:24 PM

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I would like to thank Les for some very kind words.

To Theocrat: My 12 years of college are in moral philosophy—and I tended to do an acceptable job standing up to professional philosophers.

I had a reader last year who wanted to see how my work would stand up to professional review, so he forwarded copies to Peter Singer and J.C.C. Smart. Neither offered significant criticisms of my arguments.

To Justin (and others): On the is/ought problem, I do not get around it by “defining ‘good’ as ‘desire satisfaction’. Indeed, that would not solve the problem.

I get around it by saying that the is/ought distinction requires some sort of metaphysical dualism. If ‘ought’ is distinct from ‘is’, then how does it interact with the world of ‘is’ to bring about physical changes in physical substances? And if ‘ought’ cannot do this, we have no reason to pretend that ‘ought’ exists at all. ‘Ought’ is either a part of the world of ‘is’ or it does not exist.

It does not matter to me which of these two options we take—desire utilitarian survives either way.

Yes, somebody can define ‘good’ as ‘happiness’, however, they cannot come up with a theory that explains human intentional action in terms of happiness acquisition. There are too many counter-examples (some of which I use in my writings).

However, we can explain all human action in terms of desire fulfillment.

This is where ‘happiness’ theory fails and ‘desire fulfillment’ theory succeeds.

Ulfrekr United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 01:40 PM

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The question of whether it’s right or wrong to steal the money is irrelevant. Most people won’t steal it because they *believe* it is wrong. Anyone who doesn’t care whether it’s wrong or whom it would hurt would steal it anyway, if they thought they could get away with it. The only way to prevent someone like this from stealing the money is to make them feel like they can’t get away with it, and what better way to do that than by threatening them with an omniscient policeman? Again, you aren’t making a case for the validity of religion, just the utility of the religious paradigm.
IMHO, the problem with your assessment, Justin, is that you’re assuming that people are objective actors. But people are products of evolution and subjected to the influences of their society. So even though I might rationally believe that stealing money with no risk of punishment is neither right nor wrong from an objective standpoint, I’m still probably not going to do it because there are deeper, more ingrained pressures acting on me, not least of which is the desire to feel like a “good” person. This desire appears to be hammered into us, and very few people totally discard it; even the worst criminals tend to try to justify or rationalize their actions. But I think this desire is largely instilled through social conditioning. Imagine a child raised in a box, with no human interaction. If he escaped and stole a pie from your windowsill, would he be a bad person for stealing, even if stealing is “wrong”? How would the child have known it was wrong? Would it be right to put that child in jail for the crime? What if the child escaped in an Islamic country, and ate a pig? What if it escaped in the Vatican, and destroyed a cross? Each action would be considered severely wrong in one country, but not in the other. If morality is so objective, why don’t we seem to have any objective moral standard?
Consider this: just about anyone, if asked, would say that it’s wrong to break the law. But how many people do you know who have never driven over the speed limit? If it’s immoral to break the law, then aren’t virtually all drivers immoral, especially since they’re doing something they know is wrong? Or is it more likely that they’ve assessed the risks compared to their self-interest? If we wanted fewer people to speed, would it be effective to have religious leaders inform people that speeding angers God? Since laws are inarguably social constructs, can breaking them in and of itself even constitue an objectively immoral action?
Or maybe your standard for objective morality is determined only by what’s in a holy book, say, the Bible. First of all, how can you know that this is the right book to pick? Moreover, how can you determine exactly what its moral standard is? There isn’t even a set standard for what constitutes the Decalogue, and you can think of plenty of vexing issues surrounding those rules. If my father and my mother routinely try to poison me, what is the best way for me to honor them? If someone puts a bomb in a children’s hospital on the Sabbath, should the bomb squad still be allowed to defuse it? And the examples go on and on.

I’m getting long-winded again, so one last point:

However, once you believe in God you will probably want to obey Him - even if He has said that faith alone will get you into Heaven. Thus Christian ethics works against our self-interest (although in many cases the evolutionary argument holds - selfless actions often have earthly rewards)

But you don’t HAVE to obey him? Even the worst genocidal slave owner would still be ok as long as he has genuine faith? Then under your objective moral system, pretty much NOTHING is wrong, and Christian ethics are a social construct as much as anything else. Please note that I’m not knocking them when I say that; I think the overarching Christian moral system is a pretty solid one when it’s not being opportunistically exploited.

Justin United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 01:57 PM

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To Justin (and others): On the is/ought problem, I do not get around it by “defining ‘good’ as ‘desire satisfaction’. Indeed, that would not solve the problem.

That was my interpretation of your article on desire utilitarianism:

“Good” = “Is such as to fulfill the desires in question.”

“Bad” = “Is such as to thwart the desires in question.”

I “is” the case that people have desires. But why is that good? Why is the desire to sexually torture small children good?

I get around it by saying that the is/ought distinction requires some sort of metaphysical dualism. If ‘ought’ is distinct from ‘is’, then how does it interact with the world of ‘is’ to bring about physical changes in physical substances? And if ‘ought’ cannot do this, we have no reason to pretend that ‘ought’ exists at all. ‘Ought’ is either a part of the world of ‘is’ or it does not exist.

This is the problem that rationalists have always had - what was the meaning of their metnal creations? For example, the Greeks had this problem with geometry. What is a point? What is a line? What is a plane? Where do they exist? How do they interact with our thoughts?

Eventually mathemeticians took a more analytic approach. A point was defined to be a pair of real numbers. A line is the set of points that that solve the equation ax + by = c. A plane is merely the set of all points. With a real definition, all this metaphysical angst about the real meaning of a point disappears.

This takes us back to is-ought. There is no more reason to believe there is an ought than there is a tooth fairy.

Yes, somebody can define ‘good’ as ‘happiness’, however, they cannot come up with a theory that explains human intentional action in terms of happiness acquisition. There are too many counter-examples (some of which I use in my writings).

However, we can explain all human action in terms of desire fulfillment.

Which is to say, we can describe the “is” of humans in terms of desire fulfillment. But how do you get from there to “we ought to maximize the number of fulfilled desires.”

Patness Canada Posted on 04/06/2006 at 03:00 PM

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I could put forward several conjectures, but I’m going to say this simply, because, frankly, my own interpretation of my experiences works for me, and I’m going to drop it here.

I demand self-appeasement in all that I do, at the simplest levels I can understand. I don’t need to juxtaposition it with some hypothetical system to try and measure it. In fact, that would be a bad idea since that would assume some relationship between myself and the hypothetical before-hand.

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I have no moral crisis whatsoever. When I invoke the “good dog, bad dog” mentality on other people, it’s because I’m trying to control their actions to my benefit. In a relationship, I expect that I will be compromising, so when I tell my girlfriend that something is “bad” what that means is that I want her to not do that thing. In turn she’ll argue her side and we en up doing something that seems to be in both of our interests.

I just don’t see a connection between morality and human behavior other than that. That presents the question (this is aimed at you, Justin); why is anything good, or bad, or moral or immoral? Why isn’t molesting small animals good? I know it may seem abhorrent at face value, but..

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One sure and primary and fundamental fact is the joint existence of a subject and of its world. The one does not exist without the other. I acquire no understanding of myself except as I take account of objects, of the surroundings. I do not think unless I think of things — and there I find myself. - Bruce Lee

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 03:17 PM

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Questions of “morality” are difficult for people to grapple with, particularly since there really is no absolute, objective morality that exists outside of some people’s minds. Therefore, humanity has invented religion and the idea of gods in order to answer these questions. I, however, do not share many of the opinions of the religions’ tenets on morality.

That’s my take on this issue.

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Sadie Jane United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 03:19 PM

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Let me edit my confusing above sentence: I do not agree with or live my life according to many of the major religions’ tenets on “morality.”

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Alonzo Fyfe United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 09:21 PM

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I thank the people here for their interest.

To understand desire utilitarianism, please recognize the following.

I am not saying that desire fulfillment is good. I say, ‘good’ = ‘is such as to fulfill the desires in question.’ These are not the same thing.

In order to determine if something is good, one must determine if it is such as to fulfill the desires in question.

This formula applies to everything, including desire fulfillment itself. In order to determine if desire fulfillment is good, one must determine if desire fulfillment itself fulfills other desire.

The reason that the desire to torture small children is bad is because such a desire is inherently desire-thwarting, not desire-fulfilling. Torturing small children may fulfill the desires of the person who tortures children.

However, the DESIRE to torture small children is not the same thing as the ACT of torturing small children. The DESIRE to torture small children is desire-thwarting (particularly on the part of the child being tortured), and thus counts as bad.

What if 90% of the population wanted to torture children. Would it not then be the case that torturing children is good?

Answer: No. Regardless of how many people desired to torture children, the desire to torture children remains inherently desire-thwarting. However, if nobody had a desire to torture children, then a society with NO desire thwarting is possible.

Also, I deny that “the right thing to do is that which causes the most desire fulfillment.”

This is an act-utilitarian theory. More precisely, it can be called desire-fulfillment act utilitarianism. It says, ‘Do that ACT that fulfills the most desire.”

Desire utilitarianism is not an “act utilitarian” theory, it is a “rule utilitarian” theory.

Rule utilitarianism says, “Do that act that is consistent with the best rules,” and “the best rules are those that produce the most utility.”

However, rule utilitarianism runs into a problem. If consequences are the only things that matter, and an act that breaks the rules produces better consequences than following a rule, than why follow the rule? The claim that one ought to follow the rule requires a moral principle that says that following the rule has value INDEPENDENT OF ITS CONSEQUENCES, which creates an inconsistency.

Desire utilitarianism follows the same model. It says “Do that act that is consistent with the best desires,” and “the best desires are those that tend to fulfill the most (other) desires.” We can see in this why the desire to torture children would be disqualified.

However, desire utilitarianism avoid the problem of rule utilitarianism. What happens if there is an act that will produce the best consequences would thwart the best desires? Does it not follow that, to say that one ought to do the act that fulfills the best desires require that acts that fulfill the best desires have value independent of their consequences?

We answer that challenge by calling on the principle ‘ought’ implies ‘can’. It makes no sense to say that you morally ‘ought’ to snap your fingers and bring an end to world hunger if you cannot snap your fingers and bring an end to world hunger. Whatever it is you ‘ought’ to do it must, in some sense, be something that you ‘can’ do.

Desires are rules that are written into the wiring of the brain in such a way that they do not allow for exceptions. It is not the case that a person with good desires ‘ought’ to do the act that would bring about the best consequences because a person with good desires ‘cannot’ do such an act. A person with good desires can only do that act that fulfills his desires.

I hope this clarifies a few things.

Consigliere United States Posted on 04/06/2006 at 09:57 PM

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“Do that act that is consistent with the best desires,? and “the best desires are those that tend to fulfill the most (other) desires.? We can see in this why the desire to torture children would be disqualified.

I don’t see why the desire to torture children would be disqualified at all. If one applies this:

“Do that act that is consistent with the best desires,? and “the best desires are those that tend to fulfill the most (other) desires.?

I don’t see how you exclude torturing children.  Please, walk me through this step by step as to why torturing children would be excluded.  To my simple mind it seems to that all you did was just change the word in question.  The word that one asks “okay who gets to define what this word means.” The answer is the same. All you did was just pushed the point at which the question is asked back. 

If that is the case, what you’ve done is old fashioned word play.

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