elwed:

Only because EE doesn’t have an ignore feature.

Maybe Les will put one in. I respect your right to ignore whoever you choose. This is not meant to sound cocky, but I always post as “Looking4Truth,” so when you see that name, you want want to skip over.
Respect

Maybe Les will put one in.

pmachine.com willing.

...so when you see that name, you want want to skip over.

Bullshit. The format of this site being what it is, the only way to skip over your posts would be to stop tracking the threads you post in.

By the way, did the recent crop of True Believers follow you here from RaptureReady? If so, thanks for the priceless entertainment.

In case anybody wonders why I’m not appreciative of L4T, it’s a case of a poisoned well. On all the religious forums I’ve sampled, it’s a common theme that atheists visit them for three reasons only: To poke fun at the religious, to challenge their faith (their words, not mine), or to deconvert the faithful. Actually, there’s a fourth, but it would make me laugh too hard to type it. It simply annoys me to have a believer return the imagined favor…

To all the Christian apologists out there:

You’re so fervent about defending your “faith” because deep, deep down, you know you’re just PRETENDING God.  You don’t really believe in him either.  You panic if you haven’t thought about him for a day or more, as if you’ll lose him if you don’t pay constant attention to him:  praying to him, praising him, looking at everything on this planet through his eyes, inspecting your behavior and that of everyone else for flaws.  It’s downright obsessive.  And you’re right:  just like with anything else you pretend with your friends, the more you talk about it, the more you reinforce each other and the more you believe in it.  Contrariwise, if you stop talking about God, he ceases to exist. 

Here’s the proof:  if God were to speak to you RIGHT NOW, in a completely unambiguous way, what would you think?  If a burning bush suddenly appeared in your living room and started talking to you, what would you do? 

You’d decide you were mentally ill, that’s what.

If a stranger sitting next to you on a bus turned to you and said, “I’m God,” what would you think?  You’d think he or she was mentally ill.

You KNOW you’re not supposed to take this God thing literally.  Anyone who does is presumed to be crazy.  Nobody ever considers that the women who kill their kids because God told them to might have been sane, and been the real recipient of instructions from God.  And why not?  There’s plenty of precedent in the Bible, remember?  God likes to tell parents to kill their kids.  You’ve got it in black and white in your book there.  If you really believed it, why shouldn’t you expect it to happen to you, too, just like in the book?

You KNOW it’s not true.  You’re desperately clinging to a pretense that falls apart at every other moment in the light of reality.  So you go back to your book, you go back to your friends who like to pretend with you, and you whip each other up into a frenzy until you believe again.  But you have to KEEP doing it over and over again, because the magic wears off, doesn’t it?

Just let it go.  You’re spending your life in an obsessive set of meaningless rituals.  You don’t NEED a mythical being to tell you what’s right and wrong.  You already know it, and in fact, if somebody claiming to be God tried to tell you otherwise, you wouldn’t believe it.  You KNOW better.

How do you know whats right and whats wrong? Where do you get your beliefs? Thats not an actual picture of you is it?

Megiddo, if you’re not already banned, you’re not saying anything we haven’t heard here.  Do yourself, and us, a favor, and check the archives here with the “search” feature.  Try “evolution”, or “hovind” for starters.  Thank you and have a good day.

L4T: but I always post as “Looking4Truth,�

mmm. I think maybe you could have prefaced that with ... nowadays I always blah blah blah as I think you started introducing yourself as Praying4You ... but my memory is imperfect as am I, so ...

As for the born again murderers, the Bible states that for those who accept Jesus’ grace, their sins are as far removed as the East is from the West. I guess this would logically have to include all sins, regardless of the severity.

L4t: Not that I’m badmouthing God or anything- it is His party and He can fry who He wants to- but this does seem a bit unfair, to my non-Biblically-informed sense of right and wrong.  So what your saying is that a serial murderer who also raped little kids, who repents on the last day of his life, goes to Heaven.  And a atheist who spends his entire life helping the poor and downtrodden goes to Hell.  If that’s so, it’s twisted.

Mind you, if God exists, then He can call the shots: there’s no point defining good and bad any differently than “what God likes or doesn’t like”.  But because there does seem to be some pretty common ideas about fair play, among religious folk as well as atheists, one wonders where these ideas come from, since they’re obviously not from a God that would send kind and charitable people to Hell.  Maybe Satan tells us to be kind.

You know what Satan’s greatest sin was? Thinking for himself. God created all these angels because he needed outside validation of how great he is and Satan didn’t think sitting around ego stroking was that wonderful a thing to spend eternity doing.

The Biblical God is a tyrant—my way or the highway (to Hell)—don’t matter how evil you are in life so long as you recognize me for the superamazinglywonderful being that I am, but fail to acknolwedge me and there’s nothing that’ll save your soul from endless torement forever and ever. No sin is as bad as not believing in God. It’s the one thing he can’t forgive. What an asshole.

However, upon careful reading, I’m looking at line 3:
3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong.

I suppose this is the biblical argument in support of the neo-cons’ position that only people who have something to hide oppose the spying upon its own people by the American government.

As Church Lady might say, “How conveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenient!”

It boggles the mind how few people recognize the Bible for the political propaganda it is.  It’s as plain as day to anyone with an ounce of intelligence.

I guess in the long run, I’m just trying to show that many of your questions/difficulties with Christianity are the very same ones that even great theologians struggle with. And yet, they still land on the side of belief.

I’m with Elwed and GM here. By default anyone who expends so much energy on contemplating G(g)od(s) must believe in the concept in the first place. The struggle for me is in understanding how otherwise rational people can suspend their faculties of reason in favor of one set of myths over all others.  And as an American, I’m more concerned with the takeover of my government by people who not only live by one set of myths alone, but are increasingly codifying their religious opinions into laws that impose their worldview upon their fellow citizens whose own religious opinions differ from that of Christians, thereby violating their civil rights.

In reality, I couldn’t care less whether gods exist or not.  It’s irrelevant, and I wouldn’t give it a thought if I weren’t being bombarded with religious imagery, speech and attempts to legislate morality every fucking day of my life.  Christians are the only ones in this country making their own struggle with their faith everyone else’s problem by insisting that their worldview be favored over others by the laws that govern us all.

Live by “God’s Law” all you like, but those of us who cherish our liberty as guaranteed in the Constitution of our SECULAR republic demand our right to redress our grievances with the government for violating our right to equality under the law.  I am neither “under God” nor “In God” do I “Trust.” Your Bible means as much to me as the Lord of the Rings does, and should hold exactly as much sway in matters of law. I insist that my government cease violating my First Amendment rights by supporting theism in general, and Christianity in particular by endorsing their religious beliefs through force of law.

Invisible friends are for children and the mentally deranged.

Les:

You know what Satan’s greatest sin was? Thinking for himself.

Is that biblical? Nothing in the Bible says God’s creations can’t think for themselves. Satan’s sin was declaring himself to be greater than the one who created him, and then attempting to usurp God’s throne. Satan would not have sinned had he merely said: “Wow, I have some amazing beauty, intelligence, power and might. Thanks be to the one who created me!”
Instead, he went beyond that in to his lie - “I am not a created being, I am just as good if not better than God.”
If one does not believe that the God of the Bible is the creator of all, then obviously Satan did not sin by saying this. However, if the God of the Bible is true, then you can’t logically frame Satan’s statements as truthful.

God created all these angels because he needed outside validation of how great he is

That may be your thinking Les, but it’s not biblical. I wouldn’t follow a god who needed such external validation either.

No sin is as bad as not believing in God. It’s the one thing he can’t forgive.

Actually, one can believe in God and still remain unforgiven. The fallen angels themselves believe in God, and “tremble”. However, despite belief in God, if one does not accept His son’s sacrifice for their own sin, a perfectly just God is left with no recourse but to punish that sin.
To me, it seems that your’s and Zilch’s concepts of God are insufficiently “just.” The God of the Bible demands absolute perfection, since the smallest of sins requires a penalty. Otherwise, God would be redefining some sin as “O.K.”
Granted, there are many atheists who do much good - perhaps in many cases - more than they’ve done bad. That still leaves the sin problem. By definition, a 100% perfectly holy God cannot let even the smallest of sins slide.
God, knowing none of His creations can live up to that standard, provides the perfect atonement for every such sin. In the case of the serial killer, God’s plan doesn’t negate the evil of those acts. In fact, such horrendous crimes could not be punished adequately through any means other than the sacrifice of the most perfect, sinless one of all - Jesus. So, the forgiveness of the serial killer jives with your portrayal of how bad those acts were. The forgiveness then affirms that God’s amazing grace is even more powerful than the sinner’s crime.
So God’s plan shows that He:
1) Demands absolute justice
2) Offers a way do let that justice be done, without his creations having to suffer
How can such a plan be considered unfair? If someone chooses to refuse the atonement plan, they can’t blame God. He offered them heaven, but they refuse.

L4T: Nothing in the Bible says God’s creations can’t think for themselves.

It’s hard to miss the implications of Eve and Adam being banished from Eden upon partaking of fruit from the Tree of Knowledge.

So God’s plan shows that He:
1) Demands absolute justice

Stupid thing to expect from imperfect humans created by him.

2) Offers a way do let that justice be done, without his creations having to suffer

Surrendering your brain and reasoning facilties may be considered suffering by some.

How can such a plan be considered unfair? If someone chooses to refuse the atonement plan, they can’t blame God. He offered them heaven, but they refuse.

Because
1> If he wants me to accept his offer he should appear to me and say “Hi I’m God and here’s some proof. Accept my plan or else”. If that happens I might consider it.
2> He sets up the rules and forces us to play. We dont have any say in it apparently. Its unfair to force us to play a game we did not volunteer for.

And what king of superpotent god comes up with a plan that ends with more than 90% of his creations suffering eternal torment? Thats sick. Couldn’t he come up with something better?

Hey Sadie, howzit?
You pointed out:

It’s hard to miss the implications of Eve and Adam being banished from Eden upon partaking of fruit from the Tree of Knowledge.

But let’s finish the definition of the tree:
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil
So, had they not partaken of this knowledge of the difference between right and wrong, God could not fairly demand punishment for transgressions. Once they knew what actions were right vs. wrong, they sinned by committing the wrong ones.
JP wrote:

So God’s plan shows that He:
1) Demands absolute justice

Stupid thing to expect from imperfect humans created by him.

But did He force the sin? He could not have created creatures with free will without allowing the possibility of sin. Even though He knew every creature would choose to sin, He still offered free will to all, and the opportunity to be perfected to all.

Surrendering your brain and reasoning facilties may be considered suffering by some.

How does accepting Jesus’ sacrifice make you surrender those things? Christians are still allowed to think and reason.

If he wants me to accept his offer he should appear to me and say “Hi I’m God and here’s some proof. Accept my plan or else�. If that happens I might consider it.

Fair enough. I personally maintain that He won’t damn anyone without providing sufficient evidence for His existence before death. If you have not been furnished with that “evidence” yet, perhaps it’s still coming - for you. It may not be writing in the sky that says: “Hey Julian - here’s your proof!” but instead an inner conviction that the word is true. What constitutes adequate “proof” is a matter long debated amongst theologians and laymen alike.

He sets up the rules and forces us to play. We dont have any say in it apparently. Its unfair to force us to play a game we did not volunteer for.

Maybe God will give you a chance to share with Him - your creator - a better, more just set of rules. You might want to read the book of Job first, if for no other reason than to find that you’re not the first to question God’s methods. If you’d care to humor me, I’d love to hear your better plan before you present it to Him.

And what king of superpotent god comes up with a plan that ends with more than 90% of his creations suffering eternal torment? Thats sick. Couldn’t he come up with something better?

Is 90% the accepted ratio? I’m not disagreeing with you, just admitting that I’m not sure what the ratio of saved/unsaved is. You may be right.
As far as coming up with something better: Could He have done so without negating free will? The Bible repeatedly says that God desires all to be saved, but refuses to force Himself on anybody. Interestingly enough, He has relinquished control of the final # that will accept His grace. This does not mean He would not have been capable of setting it up in a less voluntary way. Seems to me He has instituted the plan that offers the greatest to all, yet respects the individual’s right to choose.

L4T writes…

Satan would not have sinned had he merely said: “Wow, I have some amazing beauty, intelligence, power and might. Thanks be to the one who created me!�

Thanks for illustrating my point quite nicely.

That may be your thinking Les, but it’s not biblical. I wouldn’t follow a god who needed such external validation either.

One only need read the Bible to see this truth for themselves. That makes it inherently Biblical.

Actually, one can believe in God and still remain unforgiven.

And that impacts my point in no way whatsoever.

However, despite belief in God, if one does not accept His son’s sacrifice for their own sin, a perfectly just God is left with no recourse but to punish that sin.

Bullshit. If the source of Justice itself is God then anything God decides to do is Just and therefore there is no reason God can’t opt for a different course of action if he so desires. If a “perfectly just’ God has no recourse then he is not all-powerful nor the source of all Justice as you keep claiming he is. So which is it? Is he limited or all-powerful? Constrained by Justice or the source of Justice?

The God of the Bible demands absolute perfection, since the smallest of sins requires a penalty. Otherwise, God would be redefining some sin as “O.K.�

Why does any sin require a penalty? Again, if God is the source of all Justice then any decision God makes is Just and he can decide which sins are worthy of penalty and which aren’t. Otherwise, God is limited by some outside definition of sin not of his own making and which he is powerless to change.

Granted, there are many atheists who do much good - perhaps in many cases - more than they’ve done bad. That still leaves the sin problem. By definition, a 100% perfectly holy God cannot let even the smallest of sins slide.

So then you admit your God is not all-powerful as you keep claiming? Glad we could clear that up.

God, knowing none of His creations can live up to that standard, provides the perfect atonement for every such sin. In the case of the serial killer, God’s plan doesn’t negate the evil of those acts. In fact, such horrendous crimes could not be punished adequately through any means other than the sacrifice of the most perfect, sinless one of all - Jesus. So, the forgiveness of the serial killer jives with your portrayal of how bad those acts were. The forgiveness then affirms that God’s amazing grace is even more powerful than the sinner’s crime.

I’m sure that Jesus dieing so that serial killers can still make it into Heaven is a great comfort to all of the families of said killer’s victims. How great is God that these people can look forward to spending an eternity with the person who took the lives of their loved ones. I’m sure they’ll be playing their harps together and singing hymns to how great God is in no time at all. That first meeting will be a little awkward, though. It’ll probably will go something like this:

Killer: Oh, hey. Hi there. Remember me? I killed your son back in ‘05 by feeding his face into a meat grinder.

Family Member: Yeah, I remember you. I remember praying you’d end up suffering for eternity in Hell after what you put me and my family through. How’d you end up in Heaven?

Killer: I found Jesus while awaiting my execution on Death Row. That guy shows up in the oddest places, ya know?

Family Member: Yeah, he’s like that.

Killer: Yeah, well, I just wanted to take a moment and say, “My bad. Sorry.”

Family Member: Oh, well, as long as you’re sorry about it then all is forgiven. Let’s go bask in God’s glory now! Yay us!

What a just God! What a happy place Heaven will be! Thanks to Jesus we’ll be able to spend eternity with the worst scum ever born, so long as they accepted his sacrifice!

Yeah, that’s worthy of worship.

So God’s plan shows that He:
1) Demands absolute justice
2) Offers a way do let that justice be done, without his creations having to suffer

Sounds pretty stupid and not all that Just to me.

How can such a plan be considered unfair? If someone chooses to refuse the atonement plan, they can’t blame God. He offered them heaven, but they refuse.

You’re right. I hope you emulate Jesus here on Earth and demand that no one who does you wrong is punished so long as they’ve accepted Jesus as their personal savior. I don’t care if they rob you, beat you, or murder your children. If Jesus’ sacrifice is good enough for God to let them off the hook then it should be good enough for you.

The struggle for me is in understanding how otherwise rational people can suspend their faculties of reason in favor of one set of myths over all others.

I visit religious forums once in a while to see if an answer is forthcoming. Far from it, the chasm deepens with each visit.

Some just believe, period. Uh, okay. Others went down a slippery slope due to a personal experience or other. I can vaguely see that, but not quite. In either case, personal experience and anecdotal “evidence” isn’t what I call a compelling reason to give their claim a second thought. Then there are my pet peeves - apologists and their cheerleaders. The harder they try rationalize their “faith”, the more obvious it is that theirs is a house of cards.

OB:

However, upon careful reading, I’m looking at line 3:
3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong.

I suppose this is the biblical argument in support of the neo-cons’ position that only people who have something to hide oppose the spying upon its own people by the American government.

As Church Lady might say, “How conveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenient!�

I think (correct me if I’m wrong) that you’re expressing discontent with those in authority that go beyond the administration of fair justice, and start using their positions for their own personal gain/agenda. If so, I’m with you all the way in your uneasiness.

By default anyone who expends so much energy on contemplating G(g)od(s) must believe in the concept in the first place. The struggle for me is in understanding how otherwise rational people can suspend their faculties of reason in favor of one set of myths over all others.

Christians would only be suspending their faculties of reason IF Christianity was a myth. Obviously, we don’t think it is. Looked at this way, we are quite sane within our belief system.
Regarding the civics discourse: I’ll get worried once the government tells you what to believe. For now, it’s a matter of defining law, and how well our laws fit/stray from the principles this country was founded on (be they religious or secular).

L4T: So, had they not partaken of this knowledge of the difference between right and wrong, God could not fairly demand punishment for transgressions. Once they knew what actions were right vs. wrong, they sinned by committing the wrong ones.

So they only knew they sinned after the fact? Now it all makes sense to me.

That’s just like working really hard to improve the mental state of insane killers so that they’re well enough to understand what they couldn’t in the first place and to know why they’ve got to be executed now, isn’t it?

Double dipping because I can…

But let’s finish the definition of the tree:
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil So, had they not partaken of this knowledge of the difference between right and wrong, God could not fairly demand punishment for transgressions. Once they knew what actions were right vs. wrong, they sinned by committing the wrong ones.

If they didn’t know right from wrong to begin with then how could they have known it was a sin to eat the apple in the first fucking place? This is such an obvious flaw in that whole stupid myth that it’s stunning to me that anyone even attempts to use it as a justification for man’s fall from grace.

Snake: Here, eat this apple.

Eve: But God said not to!

Snake: He made this garden just for the two of you. Why would he put something here you’re not allowed to eat?

Eve: I don’t know, but I shouldn’t disobey God!

Snake: Why not?

Eve: I don’t know.

Snake: Would it be wrong to disobey God?

Eve: What does that word, “wrong,” mean?

Snake: It means you should eat this apple.

Eve: OK.

God, supposedly all-knowing, puts a fruit in a garden with TWO FUCKING MORONS who don’t know right from wrong and then allows Satan, who’s already tried to overthrow God in the past, to run around loose amongst the TWO FUCKING MORONS and he then has the audacity to be pissed off when the TWO FUCKING MORONS allow themselves to be talked into eating the fruit!

God either intended all of this shit to happen in the first place, in which case he’s directly responsible for it, or he’s as much of a fucking moron as his creations were. Neither possibility is all that comforting to consider.

But did He force the sin? He could not have created creatures with free will without allowing the possibility of sin. Even though He knew every creature would choose to sin, He still offered free will to all, and the opportunity to be perfected to all.

Um, he could’ve kept the stupid fruit out of reach. Or, for that matter, he could’ve not bothered to make the stupid fruit in the first fucking place. He could’ve gotten rid of Satan instead of letting him run around causing trouble. There’s any number of things God, as an all-knowing and all-powerful being, could have done that would’ve allowed free will and not imperiled his “children.” Adam and Eve still have their free will and there status as MORONS WHO DON’T KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG would in no way imperil them.

Fucking hell, we as imperfect beings, don’t blame our own children who aren’t old enough to know right from wrong when they do something they shouldn’t. How is it at all just to condemn people who don’t know right from wrong for doing the wrong thing? That’s not justice, that’s idiocy.

How does accepting Jesus’ sacrifice make you surrender those things? Christians are still allowed to think and reason.

Perhaps, but it’s clear that many choose not to bother. Just look at the silliness you’re putting forth as justification for man’s fall from grace as an example!

Double-dipping…

If I get it right, L4T seems to ask for literal quotes from scripture where our interpretation doesn’t work for him, while being content with his interpretation where the literal scripture is not to his liking.

Les: If they didn’t know right from wrong to begin with…

Beat you to the punch.

L4T: Christians are still allowed to think and reason.

That’s a debatable claim. What if all that thinking and reasoning makes you reject dogma and doctrine? Is it okay for Christians to call it quits or are they obliged to think and reason harder until they can convince themselves again that it all makes sense?

Elwed: Beat you to the punch.

That’s only because you’re not as eloquent (read: long-winded) as I am.

L4T: Looked at this way, we are quite sane within our belief system.

Yeah, but then again it’s a truism that insane people never question their own sanity.

We seem to be talking past one another again, L4t.  In this case, we have rather different ideas of “justice”.  For you, “justice” means born-again serial murderers in Heaven, and saintly atheists in Hell.  I can understand, from the standpoint of a jealous God, rewarding your obsequious friends and frying your upstart enemies.  It’s also obvious, as OB mentioned, what the political utility of this belief is- those carrots and sticks to win friends and confound enemies.  But it’s not “justice” in the normal sense of the word.

I’m not sure I want to get into the free-will argument with you, L4t, but I’ll toss it into the ring:  if God is omnipotent and omniscient, and created us, there can be no free will.  God made us knowing we would do as we do, so He is responsible for all decisions, all good and evil.  Either He wanted us to sin, or He’s not omniscient and omnipotent.

Les:

If they didn’t know right from wrong to begin with then how could they have known it was a sin to eat the apple in the first fucking place?

I understand your point. If so, then God can’t logically puinish that act alone (eating from the tree). Unless I’m missing something about accountability prior to knowledge of right/wrong.
Even if so, God would still have the right to punish once the “learned ones” transgress. Who can say they haven’t?

God either intended all of this shit to happen in the first place, in which case he’s directly responsible for it,

You may be right. That is, He may have allowed His creations choice, knowing all would fall short of the mark. Now we have to bring in the concept of voluntary love. Could anyone choose to love God without the choice not to? Could God demonstrate the abundance of His grace without something to apply that grace to?
I realize this pre-supposes an acceptance of God’s ultimate mission to demonstrate and share His glory. Also, the plan does involve pain and suffering for His creatures while on Earth. I would imagine that, after a couple billion years in eternal bliss, I’ll come to see the logic of His ways. Just like the serial-killer’s victim’s family members will ultimately look at God’s grace rather than harbor a grudge for long-ago earthly matters. Besides that, the serial-killer will be perfected in heaven, so the said family members are not sharing eternity with the likes of his character on Earth.
Elwed:

What if all that thinking and reasoning makes you reject dogma and doctrine? Is it okay for Christians to call it quits or are they obliged to think and reason harder until they can convince themselves again that it all makes sense?

I’m not gonna argue and say the entire Bible is easily understood, even if the essential plan of salvation is. Allow me to share Proverbs 25:2

“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing:
But the honour of Kings is to search out a matter.�

To me, that implies that one’s salvation is not dependent on understanding every “jot and tittle,” but that there are clear rewards for persisting in one’s deeper understanding.

Is it O.K. for Christians to call it quits?

I don’t know. That’s the OSAS/OSNAS debate. I would think this question is irrelevant for those who don’t believe.

I’m not gonna argue and say the entire Bible is easily understood

I’ll argue that the Bible is very easy to understand. It’s a work of fiction at best, claptrap at worst. Dealing with whatever inconsistencies there are and reconciling it with your personal beliefs (and I mean this in the broadest sense) is another matter.

That’s the OSAS/OSNAS debate.

No, it isn’t. Once I question religious dogma and decide to abandon it, OSAS/OSNAS becomes meaningless, too.

It is the very nature of dogmatically held belief, including religious dogma, that such a belief cannot be questioned. From your point of view, either there are places where you cannot allow reason to take you or you have invent a new kind of math if 2 and 2 don’t add up to 4.