Hope to see some of you in Heaven.
-
Oh, you hope to see just some of us in Heaven, eh?  Which of us don’t you want to see in Heaven, Tom?
-
...it was just a reflection of the faith that says not all will be saved. That’s all it meant.

I say that’s a bullshit answer. I think you’re playing doorman for Club Heaven. Besides, you’re supposed to want to see everybody make it to Heaven. You’re certain you’ll be there anyway.

Too many Christians wish Hell for others but don’t posses the honor to admit it.

I tried to post the following 24 hours ago but …

L4T: This site should keep you all in stitches:

I fear no man and very few women, therefore I had a look at the site to have a laugh.
I didn’t get to laugh at all, at all.
Obviously we have different senses of humour.
I did have a bit of a grin though, at the sanctimonious drivel being dribbled.
All I saw were the words, sin, lust, grace, hell and, good deeds don’t get you anywhere, then I thought: heaven would be full of those murderous inquisition bastards and fuckwits like Ken Hovind, paedophile priests, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. On the other hand, hell would have the likes of most of your founding fathers, Oscar Wilde, GB Shaw, George Harrison, John Lennon, Ghandi, Mark Twain, Graham Chapman, Lenny Bruce, Bill Hicks, Einstein, my mother and other life-loving, interesting folk.
No choice really – if only it existed. *sigh*

From your ‘keep you in stitches’ site:

People spend so much time planning for the next 10, 15, 20 years, all the while neglecting eternity.

I liked that one especially when it’s turned round.
People spend so much time planning for eternity they forget to live now.

this emancipation from bad habits, unclean desires, and carnal passions is the main point in salvation

The way I figure it is that the only people REALLY pre-occupied with lust, sex and sin are xians and muslims. Most of us aren’t enslaved by the words nor the concepts.
Then there’s:

Are You Being Honest With Yourself?

Basically this is about half a dozen dudes (and I don’t like that word but it sorta fits here) who became xians after not being xians.
I think we could find more examples of people opening their eyes TO truth than being sucked back into the morass of blindness, dependence and ‘faith’.
Then there’s:

The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ Is A Historical Certainty

As I mentioned previously, Paul reckons only the spiritual body can enter heaven. The modern xians think Paul was a bullshitter forgetting that without Paul, the Paulian (or is that Pauline?), religion would not exist.
Then there’s the last bit:

The Laws Of Statistical Probabilities Prove That The Bible Is Divine In Origin

Just more babbling bullshit.

I rather like http://www.400monkeys.com/God/ although http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2566269671806009973 is a real favourite of mine.
And, because I can http://youtube.com/watch?v=BTf3K3j8TPQ&search=bill Hicks and
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fsHk9WC7fnQ&search=john Cleese on Graham Chapman

See y’all in hell.

If the writings of an author of fiction could sway you, Tom@Looking4Truth, then you might try reading a few of Robert A. Heinlein’s works (particularly “Job: A Comedy In Justice” & “Stranger In A Strange Land"), you certainly won’t be much the worse for the experience. At the very least it can be a pleasant diversion for those honestly not fundamentally lashed to the religious “wheel.”

Doesn’t Genesis contradict both the first and second laws of Thermodynamics anyway?

Yes, Julian, but that’s no big deal for God- petty rules such as elementary logic and fundamental physical laws only apply to Creation, not to the Creator.  And if we believe what we see, it’s our own damn fault, so we fry in Hell.

I honestly don’t see why fundies bother trying to justify their faith logically or morally, since their omnimax God whistles the tune anyway.  I once took part in a protracted discussion over at antievolution.org (this particular thread has unfortunately been taken down- it was very entertaining) with a mathematically-minded fundie who was trying to reconcile the Biblical six thousand year old Earth with the apparent observed age of the Universe of about 14.5 billion years.  He came up with a sphere of ectoplasm surrounding the Earth which distorted the incoming light in exactly the right way to make it seem that the stars were older than they “really” are.  When technical difficulties were pointed out- for instance, that Cepheid variables would not appear as they do, given the proposed distortion, he added waves to the ectoplasm.  More complications were brought up, and pretty soon the ectoplasm was jiggling like jello, and each wiggle was “justified” by plugging in some mathematical formula.  There was no inherent structural priciple; it was kludged together ad hoc for the sole purpose of producing the magic number 6000.

At first I thought this guy must be spoofing us- he seemed too obviously intelligent not to realize the Rube Goldberg nature of his contraption.  But then I realized that this was simply an extreme example of what all fundamentalists do, one way or another:  once a particular set of beliefs is accepted, the whole world is perceived through the filter of those beliefs.  Now, of course, we all have filters, atheists too; some of which we are aware of, and some of which we aren’t.  But the filters of fundamentalist belief become ever more intricate and absurd, the more closely one looks at the world.  The sphere of ectoplasm was simply this fundie’s interface of immutable Biblical truth with modern astronomical observation, called into existence to crunch these two sources of knowledge together, willy-nilly.

A thousand years ago, when nothing was known about evolution or the immense age of the Universe, one didn’t need much in the way of filters to believe in the literal truth of the Bible.  But nowadays, you have to either imagine fantastic constructs like this sphere of ectoplasm, or simply stick your fingers in your ears, or some combination thereof, to reconcile the Word with the World.

L4T writes…

Simple. His joy at being the gift giver.

With that it’s obvious you’re not catching the point I’m trying to make and are going to insist on ascribing human traits to a supposedly perfect being so there’s not much point in continuing with this avenue of discussion.

Suffice it to say that I find the God described by the Bible more human creation than divine being. It has failings as bad as and often worse than the humans it’s purported to have created and even if I thought for a moment that it did exist I’d have serious reservations about worshiping something that has morals so out of whack with what I regard as decent.

Are you serious? Vague? It’s late. I’ll be back another day with examples of impossibly precise prophecy.

Now this should prove interesting, though I suspect it’s still not going to be much we’ve not had presented to us before.

As for the future, read Tim LaHaye’s Revelation Unveiled. Oh, I know, his brand of doomsday prophecy explanation is particularly scorned by skeptics and belivers alike.

I’ve tried to read LaHaye’s book a couple of times, but the tears keep getting in the way and my sides start to ache after awhile so it’s been slow going.

All I can say is, be aware of what could soon be coming our way. I wouldn’t wish the end-times tribulation on my worst enemy, but if they arrive as soon as many scholars think they will (no one knows the exact ime or date, but we can be aware of the season), very specific things will happen. The bible says that even non-believers will know these things are coming from God, and many will look up to the sky and shake their fist at God. I pray continually that as many as possible come to the faith before the times of “Jacob’s Trouble.�

If I were to worry about every prophecy that someone claims is going to come true “real soon now” I’d never have time to get anything productive done.

To me, there’s a whole lot more evidence of God’s truth, and internal consistency in the Bible than you believe.

That leads me to think you have a much lower standard of proof than I do.

That’s why I initially mistook you for someone who hadn’t really read it. All I can say is, keep reading it. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think these matters would fascinate you so much if you weren’t still curious. To me, your posts, and selection of religious blog material seem to be screaming out for someone to explain to you how this God could possibly be true. You’re obviously well read, and have given these matters way more thought than I gave you credit for.

I’ve studied a number of different religions over the years as I struggled to come to grips with my faith back in the day. I am curious, but not for how the Christian God could possibly be real as I’ve long ago decided that the possibility is nil. What I’m curious about is how easily so many otherwise intelligent sounding people swallow the nonsense without gagging on it. The inconsistencies are ignored or rationalized away. The contradictions overlooked.

You have no need to encourage me to continue reading the Bible as I pick it up on a regular basis along with various books written by both Believers and Atheists alike, but it’s going to take more than my reading the Bible regularly to bring me back into the fold as it was reading the Bible that led me away in the first place.

Looking forward to your very specific prophecies.

Les said:

I’ve tried to read LaHaye’s book a couple of times, but the tears keep getting in the way and my sides start to ache after awhile so it’s been slow going.

Despite one’s opinion on LaHaye, Les’s reaction is exactly what I meant (and suspected) would come from the link I posted to http://www.myfortress.org. Just trying to show that I’m not trying to be flippant/rude about all this. I’m merely anticipating fits of laughter to much of what I post/posit. Sorry to any reader here if my choice of words was in poor taste.
Likewise for the “hope to see some of you in heaven” remark. Had I said, “Hope to see all of you in heaven,” which I would sincerely love, I’m wondering what kind of nasty motivation would have been ascribed to my remark? Sheesh, it’s like there’s no winning with some of you (where’s the joking smiley?). Seriously, I’m not above temporary thoughts of secretly hoping someone does go to hell, but such thoughts are quickly reigned in. Those who I have allowed my mind to throw in to this category however, are guilty (at least in my mind) of far worse crimes than disagreeing with me on a public forum. I think you’re all safe from the wrath of Tom (though Brock is trying his hardest to push me - Hi Brock - hope you’re having a better week!)
I’m going slow on the prophecy stuff. There’s plenty of cheesy, summary links I could post, but I don’t want to do a shoddy job here. Stay tuned. If anything, you guys are refining my faith, because you’re forcing me to dig deeper in to what I believe. I wouldn’t expect anyone to undertake re/considering the Bible unless I felt it stood up to rigorous analysis. I suspect it will. Both our camps concede that outright proof of either position is impossible, but I maintain that, with enough data mining, things that “seem” difficult may be worth a second/third look.
Pardon me for summarizing some of my comments to all of you through Les alone. Those like Zilch and Sadie rightfully deserve their own replies, but regardless of eternity, I do have to make a living and hang with my family of 5, so must limit online time.
O.K., speaking of time, you’ll need a bit to read this post:
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/midian.html
Frankly, it’s much deeper and scholarly than some might care for, but I think the subject matter is important enough to make that necessary. I guess I’m just saying that I can read and understand the message, but my level of understanding of history forces me to take much of the author’s research on faith. Perhaps some of the more academic readers here can (in as unbiased a fashion as possible) comment on the historical plausibility/validity?
The article addresss God’s killing of babies, condoning rape and wholesale slaughter, as a few of you have (rightfully) pointed out. This is an analysis of Numbers 31, where lots of Midianites get whacked.
I present it as perhaps one instance where our initial reaction ("Whoa - God doesn’t even stick to human standards of morality, much less His own, supposedly higher, Holy standard), might require more data to see if these passages really define the God of the Bible as a a schizoid hypocrite.
For those who take the time - enjoy. Those who don’t drop every other commitment to read it, and commit it to memory, are dangerously close to those eternal sparks...(Insert death metal soundtrack - preferably with lots of low throat singing- here).
BTW, the text in the article is small. Might want to blow up the text with Firefox (Cntrl+), or some such adjustment.

The guy who insists we are more than just “meat.”

When I went to AA in the early 80s I saw the following in The Big Book (sorta like the AA bible). I’ll paraphrase coz I can never remember it correctly … Nothing can fail to keep a man in ignorance more than contempt prior to investigation.
So, I read/scanned the christian-thinktank site you mentioned, as unbiased as I could – which is damn near impossible … but
Wow. Death, destruction, rape, pillage and god ordered it all.
The article may attempt to explain/apologise/excuse/justify the actions of your god but bottom line is, he ordered the bloodshed … like Bushit is doing now, with god’s blessing?
I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer but … how can you worship such a creature? I mean … I mean, the best spin doctors in the world can’t make that stuff ‘morally right’ (can it? Not in my reality, anyway.) and justify it by saying, that tribe, or that one over there, are a bunch of bastards and … well, let’s kill ‘em all except for the young girls … that’s the stuff of nightmares and so … so Nazi.
I must admit, at last I’m getting a handle on why y’all are so hung up on, and fearful of, the evils of sex, or should that be the evils of women?
I’d like to think if the world was ruled by women there wouldn’t be any wars. They’re the most fascinating, and powerful, creatures on the planet.

For those who take the time - enjoy.

You were being serious weren’t you? 

Had I said, “Hope to see all of you in heaven,� which I would sincerely love, I’m wondering what kind of nasty motivation would have been ascribed to my remark? Sheesh, it’s like there’s no winning with some of you (where’s the joking smiley?).

Hey, we’re cool.  If I believed Heaven existed, I’d want everyone to have a shot at getting there too.  I don’t impugn your motives.

I read (or at least skimmed) through the apologetics about God’s cruelty against the Midianites, and I have to commend Mr. Miller for what seems to be a pretty even-handed analysis.  But the most favorable spin he could put on the slaughter of all the male Midianites (down to the babies) was this:

As in the case of the Amalekites, Israel was forced--by the Midianite atrocity--into the difficult situation of selecting the ‘most humane way’ of dealing with the boys, which, in most situations in the ancient world, was killing them very quickly…

And what was this “atrocity”?  Basically, that the Midianite women seduced Israelite men, and tempted them to abandon Jehovah.  Wanton sex and idolatry.  Their kids were probably little brats anyway.

I guess if I were a jealous God, and thus not accountable for war crimes, I might consider this justification for killing all the Midianite males, children and babies included.  I’m not, and it offends my ungodgiven sense of right and wrong.  But as I said, if God did it, it must be right.  Somehow.  By definition.

L4t, here’s a link you might enjoy: Atheists are Spiritual Too, by Michael Shermer. 

I take it from your last remark that you saw the meat film.  Let me close with a quote from Terry Bisson’s brilliant short story that the film was based on:

“Thinking meat! You’re asking me to believe in thinking meat!�

“Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you beginning to get the picture or do I have to start all over?�

The sneaky antipodean snuck in his comment while I wasn’t looking, so my double dipping here is justified and lawful.  John, you say

I’d like to think if the world was ruled by women there wouldn’t be any wars.

That’s something I’ve thought about a lot too.  It certainly seems as though we XY types are relatively lacking in the social graces we need in our well-armed world nowadays.  Moving in the direction of handing more power in society over to the XX sex is probably not just the moral thing to do- it’s a matter of survival.

L4T writes…

If anything, you guys are refining my faith, because you’re forcing me to dig deeper in to what I believe.

Glad to be of service. And I mean that sincerely.

I don’t know of about any of the other atheists here, but I find that a lot of Christians that know me in real life (particularly some of my in-laws) like to talk with me specifically because I have an opposing viewpoint that forces them to more deeply examine their own faith. It also helps that I’m not out to convert folks to atheism and really don’t care if you’re a believer so long as you don’t use it as an excuse to shut down your brain. Anyone who’s willing to critically examine their beliefs is A-OK in my book.

If someone decides to become an atheist because my argument is so persuasive then that’s great, but I’m not losing sleep at night over the idea that someone continues to be a believer after I’ve done so much work expressing my point of view. The truth is that if believing gives you a sense of purpose and helps you to sleep at night and drives you to be a better person then who am I to take that away from you? I may look at you as being much like Linus and his Security Blanket, but Linus is also one of the more rational and intelligent characters in Peanuts. At least when it came to things other than his faith (e.g. The Great Pumpkin and The Easter Beagle) and even then he was mostly harmless.

It’s my hope that through these conversations you’ll gain a greater understanding of where some of us atheists are coming from. Greater understanding often prompts greater tolerance and that’s a good thing in my mind.

Greater understanding often prompts greater tolerance and that’s a good thing in my mind.

Amen to that, Les.  I’ll second your comment.

Hey everyone-great site!  Look forward to adding my 2 cents to the discussion.

Question for athiests/non-Christians:

This is an honest question, ie. - with no hidden agenda to prove anything. I’m curious as to how today’s athiests/non-Christians feel their lives are personally being made difficult by the Christian majority here in North America (I think that’s still the case).
The reason I ask is that, before I became a believer at age 36 (three years ago), I don’t recall feeling that the Christian majority was really holding me down in any way. Granted, I am not gay, and never had to have discussions with a girlfriend about what to do with a surprise pregnancy.
Despite the rantings of some Christians that we are being persecuted, I don’t see any evidence of that in North America. The rest of the world is a different story (see http://www.persecution.org ). Of course, the Bible makes it clear that the day will come when the global government/religion will hunt down and kill (probably by beheading) anyone who doesn’t renounce Jesus, and swear allegiance to whoever the 666 guy will be, but that’s sure not happening yet.
So how, exactly, are those of the Christian faith making the lives of others difficult today? What is it you would like to do that Christians are now preventing you from freely enjoying?

Im not an American so I cant comment but know that I’ll never swear allegiance to the Antichrist or anyone else for that matter. There is nothing special about you christians not worshiping him.

You gave two examples of the underlying problem L4T, which is generally that vocal sections of certain religious groups keep sticking their noses into other peoples business. They do it so much and keep getting the same answer (f**k off or i’ll get my shotgun), that they turn to other more pervasive means to affect others against their wills ie politics. There’s already fears that religion is creeping back into schools, plaques around the Grand Canyon saying it was created by a biblical flood etc. now there’s a real fear that since you’ve already got this idiot pawn of big money in office (i wonder if he actually beleives he got there himself - even he can’t be that thick), that things will only get worse. It’s in big monies best interests that people don’t think too much, and religion has been acheiving that end for donkey’s years. so slowly, slowly they boil the frog and eventually everyone is queueing up to breed holy warriors who’ll wield the guns, smoke the cigarettes, tithe on top of taxes and intimidate the hell out of anyone who thinks theres a much smarter way. All the while johnny bigbux sits in his mansion drinking cord blood, preparing an orbital escape vehicle, and laughing at the hoi polloi on their way to church. What would we like to do? Look forward to the future.

btw i read somewhere that the whole 666 thing was a case of poor arithmetic, & it was supposed to be 616, in reference to caligula.

L4t- that’s a complicated question with many levels to be considered.  First off, I have to say that I don’t live in North America any more, and the only direct persecution I have to put up with is the occasional fundy telling me online that I’m going to burn in Hell.  This doesn’t really put much of a crimp in my day, so I can’t say that I suffer much directly at the hands of fanatical Christians.

But Christians do affect happenings in the world that concern me.  The most frightening for me is the acceptance of a coming Armageddon by many fundamentalists, who apparently have an ally in the White House.  Whether Bush believes that God is telling him to push the button or not, I’m not qualified to say.  But all his baby talk about good and evil and God is unsettling to a rationalist, to say the least.

Another agenda many Christians have in America that disturbs me is the push to get religion into public schools, in the form of Creationism, Intelligent Design, or whatever they will come up with next, now that Judge Jones temporarily took the wind out of their sails.  America is falling behind the rest of the civilized world as it is in science, and teaching children that some things simply can’t be explained because GOD (the Great Omnimax Designer) twiddled them is not going to help.  If Christians want to teach their kids that the Earth is flat and six thousand years old, I’m sorry for the kids, but it’s none of my business, as long as they keep their silly superstitions out of public schools.

Of course, the issues of gay marriage and abortion are affected by Christian thinking as well.  But all three Abrahamic religions are similar in this regard, tempered by the general level of education in the particular country.  If I had to choose between an American Christian theocracy, and a Middle Eastern (say Iranian) Muslim theocracy, I wouldn’t hesitate.  I also am not sure the world would necessarily be better off if everyone suddenly became an atheist, although that’s a counterfactual fantasy that is hard to imagine.

I only have problems with Christianists.

Personally, I have problems with all kinds of -ists, except for Darwinists and nudists…

Praying4You: ... before I became a believer at age 36 (three years ago),

Sorry mate.
I gotta take this one on.
How did this one GETCHA getcha GETCHA getcha?
I mean … I mean (it’s outa Alice’s Restaurant – sorry ).
How did ya get to believe that ‘Jesus is the way? I’ve paraphrase assumptions.
Did you ever look at other ‘religions’?
Aren’t they all valid? … If you BEND the faith?
Isn’t that what faith is? Bending to suit?
Like.
If you’d been bought up in, or born into Iran/Iraq/Arabia/Jordan/etc … wouldn’t you have been pre-disposed to Islam?
What makes you think you’re RIGHT?
What about if you’d been born in India?? Mongolia?? Tibet (which doesn’t exist)?
I hope you give thanks every day that you were born in a Western country that allows xianity.
How much guts would it take to go against the status quo and … would you have that commitment and faith?
I’m just stirring you mate … forget it. There is no answer, is there? on the floor.

If you’d been bought up in, or born into Iran/Iraq/Arabia/Jordan/etc … wouldn’t you have been pre-disposed to Islam?

Ah yes, the “geographical coincidence” argument.  I believe I first read this in Richard Dawkins somewhere- what an amazing coincidence it is that true believers everywhere just happen to have been born in a country where their true religion is also the most common religion!  In fact, it’s so amazing, that only God can explain it! 

DtH: btw I read somewhere that the whole 666 thing …

An old girl friend (married) has invited me to her 50th - DOB - 6.6.56.
I’ve declined of course – I’m not into chit-chat.
Bullshit. I’m just too fucking lazy.
I still remember her saying: I’ll have kids and you look after them – I’ll work.
Regrets? It’s the only one I’ve ever, EVER had!.
With all the dirt and dust I’ve ever caused ... memories ...

ZILCH: Ah yes, the “geographical coincidence� argument.

And I keep thinking I’m not ½ way bright? Others have thought of this?
Wow. (observation - there’s no smiley for sarcasm)
It’s the SUPREME argument. Yes?
Santana – Treat – someone’s gonna complain in the flats next door – 1.30am - no they won’t – it’s just John … he’s a weird bastard – he’s probably pissed ... if only they knew.
DRIFT – 2nd brother (49) emailed me yesterday: You’re coming to Burnie 22nd for dinner on 24th and going back 26th. I like my brother. I’m gonna have the BEST time. Dad’s coming too and …….
How cool is that? $200 … good to have a generous brother. See my beautiful nieces. He lives in this 96 year old house. Youngest niece said, (she’s the one who’s had conversations with the ghosts in the house) sometime ago:  Can you see this ball of energy in my hands David? .... (toss toss ... hand to hand)? And threw it at him. He went backwards a few feet as it hit him. Weird shit.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. (William Shakespeare, “Hamlet”, Act 1 scene 5)

The overwhelming prevalence of Christianity (or more accurately fundamentalist Christianity) in the United States is alarming to me on many counts. It is an overarching worldview that, at its very core, vilifies and fears modernism and progress. Its tenets are stifling for women, gays/lesbians, and nonconformists in general. Fundamentalism of any stripe rejects the truths of life (scientific or otherwise), and as Zilch pointed out, our nation is falling behind due in large part to the clout that Christian fundamentalists currently enjoy.

It’s not that I have any problem with Christians practicing their faith in their own lives on their own time; it’s when that faith is touted as the law of the land that I cry foul.

S Sadie: ...it’s when that faith is touted as the law of the land that I cry foul.

Pirates of the Caribbean - I’m (a chicken) so glad I’m protected from sword-fighting mode (although Captain Blood was a hero) ... I think you scored a (blood) point.