Daniel said:  I know that you Bush haters are drooling at the prospect that you can use this tragedy as a means of getting him but that dog doesn’t hunt. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for pissing all over GW but this isn’t one of them. By attempting to use this tragedy for leverage you are simply marginailzing any legitimate gripes you may have.

Daniel, imagine that this had been a terrorist attack, and that Bush had declared the targeted area in a state of emergency two days before the attack. Would you then question why he took several days after the attack to address the issue? Would you consider him irresponsible for turning his attention to speeches and visits concerning other issues before he turned his attention to the aftermath of the attack? Would you question why the Vice President took longer than a week to finish his vacation and return to Washington? Would you wonder why the Secretary of State was attending a Broadway show and shopping for expensive shoes after those at ground zero had been struggling for days to survive the aftermath of the attack?

If you replace the terrorist attack with a devastating hurricane, do they suddenly cease to be culpable?

Even after Bush began to observe the devastation his concerns still seemed insincere:

Sat Sep 3rd, 2005 at 07:05:42 PM EST

U.S. Senator Mary Landrieu, D-La., issued the following statement this afternoon regarding her call yesterday for President Bush to appoint a cabinet-level official to oversee Hurricane Katrina relief and recovery efforts within 24 hours.

Sen. Landrieu said:

“Yesterday, I was hoping President Bush would come away from his tour of the regional devastation triggered by Hurricane Katrina with a new understanding for the magnitude of the suffering and for the abject failures of the current Federal Emergency Management Agency. 24 hours later, the President has yet to answer my call for a cabinet-level official to lead our efforts. Meanwhile, FEMA, now a shell of what it once was, continues to be overwhelmed by the task at hand.

“I understand that the U.S. Forest Service had water-tanker aircraft available to help douse the fires raging on our riverfront, but FEMA has yet to accept the aid. When Amtrak offered trains to evacuate significant numbers of victims – far more efficiently than buses – FEMA again dragged its feet. Offers of medicine, communications equipment and other desperately needed items continue to flow in, only to be ignored by the agency.

“But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment. The good and decent people of southeast Louisiana and the Gulf Coast – black and white, rich and poor, young and old – deserve far better from their national government.

http://www.fromtheroots.org/story/2005/9/3/19542/97952

One of Bush’s first opportunities to illustrate the power a Commander-in-Chief wields came when, in Biloxi MS, he placed two now-homeless black women in the wonder of his embrace. His comforting words to one of them:

“You can get help from the Salvation Army.�

And this is where he thinks the recovery responsibilities lie: In the private sector through charitable, faith based contributions. Not “your government is here to assist you� but “Look to a private religious organization for your recovery needs.�

The Army’s missive:

The Salvation Army is a Christian organisation and part of the universal Christian Church.

Its message and the lifestyle it advocates are based on the Bible’s teaching. Its work is to make known the good news about Jesus Christ and to persuade people to become his followers.

Everything The Salvation Army does is rooted in the faith of its members. The confidence Salvationists have in a loving and caring God finds outward expression in their love for humanity and their practical response to human need.

http://www1.salvationarmy.org/ihq/www_sa.nsf/vw-dynamic-index/3DC5C3D2621007FA80256D4B004F86A2?openDocument

Even during a catastrophe he cannot curb his enthusiasm for religion in governmental processes.

A great deal of the damage Katrina hosted can be blamed on 75 “years of federal efforts to manage the Mississippi River in ways that it did not intend to be managed, keeping it from going where it wanted to go and thus weakening the natural defenses that might have spared the city the worst.�

The problem, in a nutshell, is this: the Louisiana coast, its protective fringe of barrier islands and coastal marshlands, is disappearing. Over the last 75 years, 1.9 million acres have vanished. Every year, another 25 square miles, an area roughly the size of Manhattan, sinks quietly beneath the waves. In some places, the coastline has receded 15 miles from where it was in the 1920’s.

The soil in the delta compacts and sinks naturally. Historically, however, the Mississippi replenished the loss with sediment gathered from its many tributaries and then deposited like clockwork in the delta with the spring floods. Or so it did until 1927, when Congress ordered the Army Corps of Engineers to find ways to control the floods so as to make the river safe for farming, homes and commerce.

As it would later do in the Everglades (with equally disastrous results for the Florida ecosystem), the corps then proceeded to construct a network of dams, levees and canals throughout the river basin. The upstream dams reduced the river’s sediment load well below historical levels; the sediment that remained, while considerable, was then routed away from the Louisiana coast by a system of levees and navigation channels. The effect of all these engineering changes was to hurry the river along and, at its mouth, propel its contents deep into the Gulf of Mexico, as if shot from a cannon, bypassing the coastal marshes and barrier islands that most needed its nourishment.

Add to all this the demands of a growing population, plus thousands of miles of pipes and canals dug through the marsh for a booming oil and gas industry, and the result was inevitable: a shrunken, degraded and essentially defenseless landscape.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/opinion/05mon3.html

Extreme development of the fishing and petroleum industries and desire to minimize farm flooding created conditions ripe for a catastrophe. Increased instances of hurricane formation, due largely to global warming, sealed the deal.

People will always desire to live near water, for scenery and livlihood’s sake, but maybe we need better controls on how close buildings and homes can be placed, especially in flood prone areas of the Mississippi Delta.

The present government couldn’t do much quickly to ameliorate conditions threatening to overwhelm the area, but they could have done much more to minimize recovery pains. And they could have begun to address long term solutions.

Sadly the liberation of Iraq and the building of a democratic state there got in the way of flood control building here.

I cannot decide what disgusts me most about this whole thing, but the apathy and high horses are really pushing hard to come in first. Perhaps I saw different pictures, but it looked like a lot of those in the New Orleans Superdome were elderly and/or disabled. Sure, the “able-bodied” should have and could have, and I am sure if you were there you would have and could have been judged to be just as big a failure by those comfortable enough in their dry homes and possessions to have the kind of audacity to think they know enough to know everything, including your circumstances and worthiness of aid.

Commenting on the facilities that have been set up for the evacuees—cots crammed side-by-side in a huge stadium where the lights never go out and the sound of sobbing children never completely ceases—former First Lady Barbara Bush concluded that the poor people of New Orleans had lucked out.

“Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this, this is working very well for them,” Mrs. Bush (emphasis mine) told American Public Media’s “Marketplace” program, before returning to her multi-million dollar Houston home.

[. . .]

On Friday, when even Republican lawmakers were giving the federal government an “F” for its response to the crisis, (emphasis mine) President Bush heaped praise on embattled Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown. As thousands of victims of the hurricane continued to plead for food, water, shelter, medical care and a way out of the nightmare to which federal neglect had consigned them, Brown cheerily announced that “people are getting the help they need.”

Barbara Bush’s son put his arm around the addled FEMA functionary and declared, “Brownie, you’re doing a heck of a job.”

Like mother, like son.

Even when a hurricane hits, the apple does not fall far from the tree.

News Link

Bubbles are fragile.

If you replace the terrorist attack with a devastating hurricane, do they suddenly cease to be culpable?

Are you serious with this analogy? Tell me you’re not serious. A terrorist attack out of the blue and a hurricane that’s been on track to hit your city for days . . .

Bottom line, by law the responsibilty for prepareing for the oncoming strom is with the state and local authorities. All the nonsense that you spew and the feeeeelings that you put across do not change that fact.

Daniel said: Are you serious with this analogy? Tell me you’re not serious. A terrorist attack out of the blue and a hurricane that’s been on track to hit your city for days . . .

You tend to miss the obvious allot too don’t you, Daniel. The analogy had to do with the fact that Bush had declared the area in a state of emergency two days before the hurricane (Aug 27th) and then busied himself with a “birthday photo-op with Senator John McCain” and a visit to an “Arizona resort to promote Medicare drug benefit.” (Aug 29th) As the event progressed, he had mounting opportunities to suspect massive federal aid would be required: The “National Weather Service issued a bulletin (Aug 28th) predicting devastating damage and still Bush had other minor concerns to fill his days.

VernR provided the time line page so you should look it over carefully.)

Four days after his state of emergency declaration, Bush finally ends his vacation in Crawford, TX. (Aug 31st)and returns to Washington even though 80% of New Orleans was flooded the day before. Finally, four days later, President Bush declares the Gulf Coast a public health emergency. It also takes FEMA four days from Bush’s State of Emergency designation and three days after Katrina’s 2nd landfall to begin to move rescue ships and helicopters to the region.

There is plenty of reason to suspect the administration knew 9/11, in some form, would happen too. I’ll happily provide links relating to that for you if you like.

The point is that you likely wouldn’t accept behavior like this after a terrorist attack, but an even deadlier natural calamity finds you satisfied with the administration’s response, even though we pay taxes for The Department of Homeland Security to deal effectively with disasters like this as well.

Feeeelings are cool; you should have some.

Brock;you’re my absolute hero - Daniel;the rock you crawled out from under just washed away.

Frumpa;

The analogy is still bogus. The buck started with state and local, period. The feds can only act when called upon. That’s the law.

To be clear I’ve never said that Bush was blameless.  It’s just that it’s absurd to think that he bears the majority of the blame. He doesn’t. All the bashing and ranting and raving by you Bush bashers will not change that FACT. The fact being that as far as fault goes, the majority by far falls onto the shoulders of the governer and the mayor. To keep claiming otherwise shows a huge disconnect with reality and civics 101. Since that IS the reality, why are you not calling for their heads? Wouldn’t have anything to do with partisian politics would it?

I’ve yet to see one claim of “it’s Bush’s fault” be supported by simple logic and fact from you people. Personal attacks don’t count. That just means you have nothing with which to support your misguided notions.

Perhaps the reason people aren’t calling for the heads of the LA governor and NO mayor is that, unlike the president, these people rarely make decisions that effect the entire nation, and as such most of us are less concerned with determining their degree of competence and culpability. I’m not from NO, and I have no idea how they feel about their mayor, but I’m sure people who questioned his judgment before have even more reason to do so now. But regardless of anything Bush should or could have done, just the fact that he makes bizarre statements like
“I don’t think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees” is enough for many of us to question exactly what goes on in the president’s head.

So…
How does the mayor or gov. obtain enough choppers to evacuate a flooded city?

Surely none of your are suggesting the LA National Guard had enough for this operation.  Thus, the gov. spoke directly to Bush on following the levee breched… and waited… and waited… and waited…

This isn’t so much a local issue as a national issue.

EMSNEtwork.org: We questioned why we couldn’t cross the bridge anyway, especially as there was little traffic on the 6-lane highway. They responded that the West Bank was not going to become New Orleans and there would be no Superdomes in their City. These were code words for if you are poor and black, you are not crossing the Mississippi River and you were not getting out of New Orleans.

Link

By the way, these people were on foot.

At least in the aftermath, local, state, and federal government officials ALL got blood on their hands.

Jeez, Les the “I have the truth and you are all wrong, facts be damned” idiots your site attracts are getting worse and worse as time goes by. The older ones (like grey) look like geniuses compared to Daniel.

There’s a lot of talk about why people didn’t leave when they had the chance—the ‘able-bodied’ that is. Well, I wanted to know too, and here’s a part answer:

I have a friend whose family lives near the LA Mississippi border, and I’ll paraphrase she told me about that:

“I’ve lived here all my life and so has my dad’s family. We’ve seen hurricanes come and go nearly every year. Our family has seen big ones (some of the biggest)as well as small ones.

Over the years, with all these hurricanes coming through every year, we’ve learned that our house is pretty sturdy and safe. It has held up for a long, long, time. Our past has told us that we’ll lose power for a while, and that we’ll have a massive clean-up to do after, but if we board everything up, we’ll most likely be okay.

If we leave, we’ll likely go 3 or more hours away, and when the hurricane is over, the roads will be closed or blocked, curfews in place, and it will be several days before we can get back in.

And so you’re stranded, three hours away, safe (as you would have expected to have been at home) except that now your house if flooded and damaged very badly because you weren’t there to fix the roof for several days.”

My friend’s family is working-class poor. They hold jobs but there isn’t much left at the end of the month for extras. They stayed to try to protect what they had. It was clearly a mistake—but hindsight is 20/20.

My friend adds that since you (we) don’t live down there, we don’t realize that shelters are typically poorly-built, over-crowded, and undersupplied, so people don’t like to go to them unless there is nowhere else to go.

One last thing:

She asks me to ask the critics a question(especially any of you folks who live on the west coast) “The big earthquake is coming sooner or later. Why don’t you get the heck out now while you can?

She asks me to ask the critics a question(especially any of you folks who live on the west coast) “The big earthquake is coming sooner or later. Why don’t you get the heck out now while you can?

Good question!  I don’t have a good answer other than I prefer the climate of So Cal to most other parts of the States.  I suppose no matter where you live, there’s always some natural threat around.

In light of Katrina, however, I’m adding more provisions and other survival supplies to my earthquake kit.  NOT a gun!!

(an aside--I also spent several years living in Arkansas, where tornado watches and warnings where just a part of regular life)

The older ones (like grey) look like geniuses compared to Daniel.

Nice. Can you point to one factual error of mine in this debate, or are personal attacks all you’ve got?

How does the mayor or gov. obtain enough choppers to evacuate a flooded city?

The mayor had 2000 buses and an evacuation plan that called for using them. The buses are now under water because the mayor failed to follow his own city’s evacuation plan.

Why do I have to keep repeating this to you people?

Shelley, unless the “experts” are incorrect in their hypothesis, they believe they might have found a way to predict when the next big quakes are coming and where (thanks to applications of chaos theory). Supposedly, it’s less than 20 years away, and yes, given that information, I plan to be right the hell out of BC when it happens. Might even have to move down east. We’ll see.

Last, to the hounds on Daniel’s tail here, let’s be fair to Mr. Medley here. He’s bringing up good points and he’s directing where the brunt of our blame ought to be placed. He’s not absolving Bush - even if Bush issued a “state of emergency” declaration the day it happened wouldn’t change the fact that the city itself could have done a hell of a lot more to prevent people from dying prior to the hurricane.

Post-hurricane, of course, the ball is in Bush’s court, and for being able to sustain an army half-way across the world, he can certainly see troops and resources deployed to help get the city in order and remove the remaining residents (which, I’ll mind, should have been moved out in the first place by means of martial law). It did take him a whole and I’m sure people died on his account, too.

Posse Comitatus, anybody?

Posse Comitatus, anybody?

I agree.  You’re pissing in the wind by bringing it up though.  Everybody on this site is more interested in bashing whoever they have an axe to grind. Since everybody was involved in the fuck up there is plenty of material for all sides to sling it around. 

Engaging in an open discussion about what needs to be done, which is quite substantial given the possible ecological implications, is simply less “fun” than a discussion about what needs to be done, how it should be done, and even whether it should be done.  Furthermore, I doubt many of the posters here have any fruitful ideas about how to fix the problems they have identified.  They prefer to parrot talking points from their respective sides.

The Posse Comitatus Act is a federal law of the United States (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed in 1878, after the end of Reconstruction, and was intended to prohibit Federal troops from supervising elections in former Confederate states. It generally prohibits Federal military personnel and units of the United States National Guard under Federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress.

I would agree with you except for several issues.  First of all, posse comitatus refers to using the military in a law enforcement role.  Rescue missions are not of necessity a “law enforcement” role.  Secondly, the Administration has shown no compuctions on infringing, changing or altering the Constitution and the Bill of Rights when it suits them.  Everything from the Patriot Act (and related Executive Orders), to the Terry Schiavo case, to DEA federal agents raiding medical marijuana clinics that are authorized by state law.  In addition, according to Wikipedia the following are all exceptions to the PCA:

National Guard units while under the authority of the governor of a state;
Troops when used pursuant to the Federal authority to quell domestic violence as was the case during the 1992 Los Angeles riots;
The President of the United States can waive this law in an emergency;
In December 1981 additional laws were enacted (codified 10 USC 371-78) clarifying permissible military assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies—including the Coast Guard—especially in combating drug smuggling into the United States. Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance) while generally prohibiting direct participation of Department of Defense personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests). For example, Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachments (LEDETS) serve aboard Navy vessels and perform the actual boardings of interdicted suspect drug smuggling vessels and, if needed, arrest their crews.
Under 18 USC 831, the Attorney General may request that the Secretary of Defense provide emergency assistance if civilian law enforcement is inadequate to address certain types of threat involving the release of nuclear materials, such as potential use of a Nuclear or Radiological weapon. Such assistance may be by any personnel under the authority of the Department of Defense, provided such assistance does not adversely affect US military preparedness.

BTW, Consi, excellent post on the other thread.  I agree with you 100%.  Culpability starts at the local and extends all the way to the feds.  This includes Congress itself- both Dems and Reps especially because they could have authorized the troops to be active right away since the Admin was too busy with its vacation to be bothered.
As for what can be done.  This type of storm is going to become more common and sea levels are continuing to rise.  All of the officials involved need to be held accountable, regardless of party.  The FEMA head needs to be made back into a cabinet level office with the tools to act quickly to a situation that is obviously much too big for local officials to handle.  In addition, the head of FEMA should be appointed from competent people with the proper experience, especially in organizing large amounts of resources.  It appears that global warming is now making the soil release more CO2 than previously.  People need to start considering moving population centers further away from the coast.

This includes Congress itself- both Dems and Reps especially because they could have authorized the troops to be active right away since the Admin was too busy with its vacation to be bothered.

Wrong. It was legally up to the governer to request the fed troops. As far as the National Gaurd is concerned; those are under control of the governer. She had the legal power to activate and place them as she pleased from the get-go but didn’t do it.

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.  18 U.S.C. § 1385.

They could have had it passed within one day just as they did for the “Schiavo Law” and immediately taken control.  In addition, under the exceptions, the president as well could have waived the law- not even requiring an Act of Congress.  Once again- search and rescue does not necessitate law enforcement activities.  Delivering food and water is not a law enforcement activity.

I was half joking with my “Bush should have just sent the military...” comment in the Bush To Oversee Probe thread, but I’d much rather see the military used for saving lives rather than taking them.

warbi made some great points. Thanks, warbi

Consi said: Furthermore, I doubt many of the posters here have any fruitful ideas about how to fix the problems they have identified.  They prefer to parrot talking points from their respective sides.

I have some suggestions:

1) Don’t live in danger prone area unless you enjoy being challenged.
2) Utilize sensible plans for structures. Ideally structures on the coast should be made of concrete and REBAR and shaped more like an igloo than a big square box. Water-proof cellars would make a lot of sense too.
3) Let the Mississippi River run free; it’s going to anyway.
4) Have true federal solutions for rescue and recovery and use them immediately. If you create a department that is solely in charge of these things, they had damn well better know what they’re doing and they’d better do it or they should be answerable to public lawsuits and/or criminal charges.
5) Never put Arabian horse lawyers in charge of Homeland Security. If any federal department requires the best we’ve got, this one does.
6) The president should never take more than 24 hours to get back to Washington unless he is stranded in the hurricane blasted area too.
7) Suck up to science. It’s going to save your ass someday - guaranteed!

That’s what I’ve got off the top of my head. Imagine the solutions I could come up with if I were paid to.

oops, meant to say “Never put Arabian horse commissioners in charge of federal emergency management...”

Brock,

I pretty much agree with your post but I’d also add;

8)If you’re a local official like a mayor follow your city’s evacuation plan and utilize however many buses you have to aid in the evacuation.

9)If you’re the state governer of an effected area make sure your officials DO NOT turn back a caravan of Red Cross trucks carrying food and water:

Louisiana officials told the American Red Cross not to plan to go into New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina hit to provide relief to residents at the Superdome — and also refused help from the organization before the storm hit.

As its workers evacuated the city before the storm, the Red Cross offered to drop off food, water, cots and other emergency supplies to the Superdome, but officials declined the supplies, Red Cross spokeswoman Carol Miller said Thursday. The Red Cross was aware that the Superdome was a refuge of last resort for people who couldn’t evacuate New Orleans.

warbi,

I’m glad to see someone actually knows about the act. I’m going to tell you that I get scared about blurring the lines for the military.  There are reasons for not blurring the lines, and when you do so for one case, it becomes easier to do so.  I know slippery slope argument, but some slopes are just damn slippery.  As a conservative, the last precedent I want the admin to set is that we want the president to use the military to keep the peace.  Yikes!!

I know the 82nd Airborne is in NO and that the leadership that the military has provided on the scene has been invaluable.  I just don’t like the idea of one of our soldiers facing the possibility of having to return fire upon U.S. citizens, even those engaged in criminal activity.  Nothing good can come from that.

Brock:

I wasn’t referring to you.  You and I may be worlds apart politically, but your heart is always in the right place. This is reflected in your posts, even in your rants. I would second your suggestions, and although I doubt the President being in Washinton instead of a ranch has any great impact on the substatantive issues involved, it has a huge symbolic impact.  Sage political advice to every President.

Engaging in an open discussion about what needs to be done, which is quite substantial given the possible ecological implications, is simply less “fun� than a discussion about what needs to be done, how it should be done, and even whether it should be done. - Consi

Not sure what you’re saying there, (cut-and-paste error?) but in addition to what Brock said I have a few suggestions:

• Restore Clinton’s line-item veto.  That way Alaska can’t spend $433m on a trophy-bridge to nowhere while levees are inadequite to protect a major city
• (modification to Brock’s point about letting Mississippi river run free) - it probably needs to be managed here and there, and it may be possible to manage it in a way to accelerate the regrowth of barrier islands and marshes
• Make environmental impact statements include local, regional, and global impacts.  There is a connection, for instance, between falling fish catches in the North Atlantic and the mismanagement of the Mississippi river
• Look for “third-option” environmental impact.  If it is true that “environmentalists” sued to stop levee improvements in NOLA (hmmm...) keep at it until a solution is found
• Have some accountability in government.  When a lot of people die because of gross mismanagement (from Nagin on up) let’s see some serious prison terms.  Holding public office should be more than limousines and black-tie events.  First time a mayor or a president spends 20 years in prison, future mayors and presidents will be a hell of a lot more carefull how they conduct business.  These jobs matter and so should the accountability.

Maybe one other suggestion: make everyone in government watch The Daily Show.  As John Stewart says; “When someone doesn’t want to play the blame game… they’re to blame.”

Oops, I should have noted that point about accountability is just another modification to Brock’s point #4.  Short version, “Yeah!  Hit ‘em harder!