Too bad the government warned people not to travel to Lebanon back on 2 May.

Whatever your take on Iraq, citizens still have the obligation to take responsibility for their own lives. If you’re stupid enough to travel to a war zone for pleasure, sorry, you get to foot the bill home.

Touche

Ryan: If you’re stupid enough to travel to a war zone for pleasure, sorry, you get to foot the bill home.

My thoughts exactly.

SMH: Mrs Hadchite could be left behind in Beirut while her husband and children sail to Turkey because her Australian passport expired three weeks ago. She does not have a Lebanese passport.

Dumb bitch. She’s been living there for 9 months and now wants us to help her.
Fuck ‘er.
Hey, don’t get me wrong. I feel for the poor bastards who can’t get out because they’re Lebanese subjects but not at all for those with ‘dual-citizenship’.
Have you heard of anything more stupid? Dual-citizenship.
I think if you don’t want to give a country your Total loyalty, fuck off.

Ryan writes…

Too bad the government warned people not to travel to Lebanon back on 2 May.

It’s estimated there are 25,000 Americans in Lebanon. Are you seriously suggesting that none of them were their prior to May 2nd? You are familiar, I presume, with the American University of Beruit and the numerous Americans who work and/or study there? Have you even read the travel warning you linked to? It doesn’t tell people not to go to Lebanon, but to consider the potential risks and to be very cautious if they do.

Whatever your take on Iraq, citizens still have the obligation to take responsibility for their own lives. If you’re stupid enough to travel to a war zone for pleasure, sorry, you get to foot the bill home.

We’re not talking about Iraq, we’re talking about Lebanon which, until just recently, wasn’t an active war zone.

I think it demonstrates some pretty fucked up priorities that we have no problems spending billions blowing the shit out of a country without good cause, but whine the moment we’re called upon to save some fellow Americans from events beyond their control.

No, I’m not suggesting no one was there prior to May 2, but there are a great many that went after that date. All these sob stories on the Detroit news stations about so-and-so’s kids stuck in the fighting makes me sick. Those kids were in school when the advisory went out and the parents still let them go. That is some fucked up thinking.

I did read the advisory and it was politic-speak for “you’re an idiot to go to this region right now”. I know we’ve become accustomed to the government spoon-feeding us how we’re supposed to behave, but wouldn’t you have maybe reconsidered traveling to Lebanon once you’d read that?

It should be noted that none of this charge-back brouhaha has prevented anyone from getting out of the area. They are required (by law, I might add) to sign a promissory note, not write a check at the foot of the plane.

I’m all for getting them out, but, as someone who religiously (irony intended) espouses personal responsibility, I can’t believe you’re ok with letting people who knowingly traveled to a dangerous region for pleasure get a free ride home just because they’re stupid.

I did read the advisory and it was politic-speak for “you’re an idiot to go to this region right now�. I know we’ve become accustomed to the government spoon-feeding us how we’re supposed to behave, but wouldn’t you have maybe reconsidered traveling to Lebanon once you’d read that?

I suppose it would depend on what my reasons for going happened to be. If it was for a vacation then, yeah, I’d seriously reconsider it, but if it’s to see family—say because of a wedding or a death or just because it’s been years since I saw them—or because of business related reasons then I’d take the advice to heart and pack my bags anyway. You make it sound like there’s no legitimate reason for Americans to have been there.

And if the government wants people to stay the fuck out then they should stop with the politic-speak and just fucking say so.

It should be noted that none of this charge-back brouhaha has prevented anyone from getting out of the area. They are required (by law, I might add) to sign a promissory note, not write a check at the foot of the plane.

I never claimed it was keeping anyone from getting out of Lebanon.

I’m all for getting them out, but, as someone who religiously (irony intended) espouses personal responsibility, I can’t believe you’re ok with letting people who knowingly traveled to a dangerous region for pleasure get a free ride home just because they’re stupid.

If there had been good reason to assume something like this were imminent and people still made the trip then I’d be right there with you in calling them idiots, but that isn’t the case. There was no reason to expect that war between Lebanon and Israel would suddenly flare up as it did. For that matter, not everyone went there strictly for pleasure.

There’s a similar travel warning for Israel itself along with 28 other countries some of which you might expect and some not. I’m actually surprised to see that there are countries, such as Egypt, that aren’t on the list.

Are there some people who are there for stupid reasons? I’d bet there probably is, but it’s silly to think that’s true for all of them.

Not that it matters as it appears Bush Administration has decided to waive the fee after all the criticism it received about it.

A couple of things-

First our country isn’t socialist and if people want the government to pay for everything, then they need to understand that is by definition- socialism.

Second- There is always a list of travel warnings on the US State Department website.
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_1764.html

If people are stupid enough to travel to known unstable areas, screw ‘em. It isn’t like Lebanon has EVER been stable. That’s as retarded as going to Africa and then being shocked when you end up getting kidnapped or your throat slit by whatever rebels in the area. DUH.

People, stick to places like Europe. Belgium is lovely I hear.

GoodKitty: First our country isn’t socialist and if people want the government to pay for everything, then they need to understand that is by definition- socialism.

Our country isn’t capitalist either, but yet we keep slipping in capitalist things here and there.

It isn’t like Lebanon has EVER been stable.

Huh, that’s odd, I don’t remember always seeing them on that list.

But I guess every American that went there did it because of a stupid reason or because they are a moron right?  Yea that’s it, when our brethren are in need we tell them to go to hell, that’s the American way…

I’m all for getting them out, but, as someone who religiously (irony intended) espouses personal responsibility, I can’t believe you’re ok with letting people who knowingly traveled to a dangerous region for pleasure get a free ride home just because they’re stupid.

Your travesty of leader is personally encouraging and supporting (like always) this agression of Israel so why government then shouldn’t be obliged to get its citizens out from there if it’s very closely on background of events causing danger?

First our country isn’t socialist and if people want the government to pay for everything, then they need to understand that is by definition- socialism.

You’re right, your leaders are much closer to fascism… which makes sense when remembering heavy subsidizing of big corporations and their close connection to government.

Webs:

?: It isn’t like Lebanon has EVER been stable.

Huh, that’s odd, I don’t remember always seeing them on that list.

For a long as I can remember, as beautiful as the place used to be ... and it definitely used to be something similar to La Riviera, it’s been fucked since 1975.
Anyone going to a place controlled by Hezzbollah, a ‘terrorist’ organisation, and expecting peace, is a la-la-land Polyanna fuckwit.
Say no more. 
Last week, coupla days before the ‘explosion’, my mate took his wife’s best friend (Lebanese) to Sydney to sign documents transferring ownership of a block of dirt in Lebanon over to a Yank who already owned dirt there.
We’re wondering if she’ll get paid.

I didn’t say we are capitalist.  I said that when people want their government to pay for everything that it’s socialism.

I maintain that Lebanon has been unstable for many, many years. Uh, PLO, civil war from 1975-81 just to name a few little things. (Thanks John)

So yes, I think anyone who goes pretty much anywhere in the Middle East for a vacation is fucking stupid. Clearly if they were there in a military capacity or something, that would be different. But, the last time I checked- Lebanon wouldn’t be too hot on having US Marines stationed within its borders. I am guessing that the 25,000 American people who were there chose to be there of their own volition and weren’t there on orders. If that’s incorrect and we had 25,000 people there in some offical capacity, do let me know.

Frankly, telling “our brethren” to go to hell is something Americans do best.
If that were not true, there wouldn’t be working poor, emergency personnel would be paid much closer to what they deserve and people wouldn’t be left to starve to death after disasters.

Saying the MORONS who put themselves in harm’s way should take responsibility for their idiotic choices isn’t telling them to go to hell. Your assertion implies that any idiot who has terrible judgment is entitled to a free bail out.
I flat out disagree with that concept.

Before traveling to any foreign country, one should be responsible and assess the risks before buying their plane ticket. Especially Americans. There are an awful lot of people who hate Americans and this is not news.

Bad things happen to lovely people, which is tragic. But when bad things happen to people because they do the equivalent of walking onto a highway blindfolded, no one should be surprised when they get squashed under a bus.

I didn’t say we are capitalist.  I said that when people want their government to pay for everything that it’s socialism.

No one in here mentioned anything about paying for everything.  We simply want our government to pay for getting our OWN AMERICANS out of harms way.

And your assertion implies that everyone that went there did so with no other motivation than to take a vacation.  Really you seriously believe that?  You do not think it is at all possible that some of these people had family emergencies to attend to or some other issue most people would deem important enough for going to Lebanon?  But lets just assume that there were 100 people out of the 25,000 that had a reason we would deem necessary to going over there.  Are you proposing we only pay for the 100 and not the remaining 24,900?

I am saying that the majority of the 25,000 Americans that were in Lebanon were there because they clearly lack good judgement.
And, to recap, the government doesn’t owe them a gd thing. That’s what Visa and American Express are for. Clearly, if they can afford to live there, they can cough up for the way back.

I am proposing the the US government pay for no one.

That should clear things up.

Yeah, we wouldn’t want our tax dollars to go towards actually helping someone. That’s unAmerican! If it’s not being used to destroy something then it’s not being used properly.

Yeah, we wouldn’t want our tax dollars to go towards actually helping someone. That’s unAmerican! If it’s not being used to destroy something then it’s not being used properly.

Spoken like a true American

I don’t support the Iraq war or Bush. I haven’t said anything about any of that being right in any way, shape or form.

As far as helping people, I’m all for helping people who deserve to be helped. I disagree that stupid falls in the category of deserving.

I would rather pay fireman and EMTs more before writing a check to some fuckwit who didn’t bother to scope out the State Department’s travel warning list before going somewhere dangerous.

Nowhere in the the US Constitution or the Bill of Rights does it guarantee that the US government will bail your dumb ass out if you choose unwisely to travel to an unstable and dangerous country.

I love the insinuation that disagreeing with an apparent majority is un-American. Not that I’m surprised.

Oh, and by the way, I noticed on the news today that a bunch of the evacuees were on a cruise to Beirut. Who the hell in their right mind goes on a cruise to Beirut??? Maybe you think the time is ripe for a safari in the Congo?

Okay, so when we’re past saying that the people in Lebanon now are stupid (you can point fingers at Maddox for visiting Thailand during the whole SARS fiasco), lets pause to remember something. If they are trapped - actually trapped, and can’t get out, then yeah, get them back. Sure, they can pay for it. Give them a bill.

Y’know why? Because without the government’s intervention, they wouldn’t have anything. That the government can and does get involved in situations where you’re powerless, for your own welfare, is good enough. I imagine the cost of a flight is nothing that the average person flying to Lebanon in the first place can’t work out.

GoodKitty, I think, has it right. It’s the government’s place to allow you to be stupid, and to get your ass wrecked if you are. I don’t consider being trapped in Lebanon reason enough to have the government pay for you, but they CAN get you out of there.

To some extent, the same holds true in America for emergency services, and the police as well. Really, the issue is what parts of the bill would belong on your dime, and what parts of it belong on the government dime. Let’s step outside the flight on a private airliner for a sec. I mean, should funding for a US military escort be provided?

But then, if we want to go all the way as you do, GoodKitty, and I must disagree, stupid != unworthy of help. If we really wanted that, we wouldn’t even intervene. We’d let people die. There also wouldn’t be ambulance service for a goodly number of car accidents - hell, we can remove the police in their entirety. If it’s dangerous outside, just don’t go out.

There is a line out there that ensures a certain degree of welfare for all American citizens. That’s a safety net, and essentially speaking, a socialist tool. Taking the notion of self-responsibility too far returns it to a free-for-all, but especially, incurs a loss of efficiency. Socialism has a place in a capitalist society, too.

I would rather pay fireman and EMTs more before writing a check to some fuckwit who didn’t bother to scope out the State Department’s travel warning list before going somewhere dangerous.

Does anybody know for a fact how many U.S. citizens in Lebanon are tourists and business travellers, as opposed to residents of some sort?

There is a reason for the Darwin Awards.

Y’all started me on a rant. Linking here since trackbacks are still apparently off (damn spammers)!

Gist is:
Those that knew the risks of being in Lebanon were aware of the potential cost of evacuation.

For those who didn’t, the cost of evacuation is a small price to pay.

I don’t mind the gov’t being the travel agent, but if you think folks shouldn’t foot the bill, take up a collection and reimburse them. Seriously. Start a charity or something.

Well said Ravingsane. I agree. Dubya knew when he ran for President the security risks involved of him as a target.  All right thinking American taxpayers should demand that they stop being forced to subsidise the protection for a millionaire.

I have to admit I’m surprised I’m in the minority on this one, but that happens from time to time.

Dubya knew when he ran for President the security risks involved of him as a target.  All right thinking American taxpayers should demand that they stop being forced to subsidise the protection for a millionaire.

Can you say non sequitur?

That’s the point I’ve been trying to make all afternoon, ravingsane. Well said.

Those that knew the risks of being in Lebanon were aware of the potential cost of evacuation.

For those who didn’t, the cost of evacuation is a small price to pay.

I don’t see anybody answering my question about how the numbers of U.S. citizens in Lebanon break down between tourists, business travellers, and residents. I’ll add another question - how long the residents have been there.

The U.S. has an obligation of sorts to evacuate its citizens out of a hot zone. I don’t have a problem with the original promissory notes, but what I do have a problem with is blaming Dubya or making unqualified assumptions about the reasons for American citizens being in Lebanon in the first place.