Prayer is a civic duty?!?! Excuse me, but I was under the illusion that we live in a country with a church and state separation.  Sorry, my mistake!  Ugh!  I am so tired of the Christians in this country shoving Christianity down our throats.  (And I am a Christian.) Okay, things are officially getting dangerous.  It’s time for all of us to step up and say we’re tired of this church/state crossover.  The U.S. government has been doing that entirely too much.  But, hey, I’m preaching to the converted, aren’t it?  (To use a terrible analogy!)

OK, in the interest of fairness I should say that Mr. Turner didn’t technically say that prayer was a civic duty, he just acted in a way that implied to me he felt that it was. I should also take a moment to point out that a greater majority of Christians I know and talk to on a regular basis do believe in the idea of the Wall of Seperation as much, if not more, than I do and I’m a pretty strong supporter of it. The problem mainly seems to crop up with those of a more Evangelical bent who can’t seem to see how much they have in common with another well-known fundamentalist group known as the Taliban. (It always pisses them off when I compare the two as well, I can’t imagine why) Not to pat myself and others of a similar mindset on the back too much, but we play a large role in making certain that the Bill of Rights serves its purpose and stepping up to challenge obvious violations of the seperation clause. OK, enough with my little rah-rah-team self-indulgence.

Unbelievable ! ! This country was established on God.  Why don’t you move to a country that wasn’t.

The idea that this country was established on God is, at best, misinformed and, at worst, an outright lie. Pilgrims did come here to escape religious persecution back home, and religious liberty is certainly one of the founding principles, but God wasn’t the basis or motivation for the establishment of the United States.

Not that it matters, it’s apparent from the fact that you aren’t brave enough to leave an email address that you have no interest in learning the truth. You wish to merely spout off an uninformed opinion and then run and hide. Not entirely unexpected.

I happen to know Frank personally.  Both before God changed him and after.  He is real and God is real.  The constitution states freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion.

Oh yeah...one more thing.  The nasty person who wrote the letter about Frank Turner.  You got the wrong chruch.  Yes it is Life Application Ministries, but when I checked YOUR source, I discovered it is indeed the wrong one.  Please get your facts right when you go against the good guys.

I would be that person that wrote the “nasty” letter about Frank Turner. I believe that Frank is real, but then I’ve met him in person myself. God I don’t buy into. Yes, the Constitution states freedom of religion which includes freedom from religion. If I have the right to choose to practice any religion I wish then I also have the right not to practice any religion at all.

Not that I even remotely understand what your trite statement is supposed to prove. I never questioned the reality of Frank Turner, I questioned his practice of preaching when he should be delivering the news. I don’t turn on the news to hear Frank Turner tell me he thinks I should pray more. I couldn’t care less if Frank Turner thinks people should pray more. He should just do his job and deliver the news or quit and become a freaking clergyman where preaching would be more appropriate.

As for my source being wrong, if you have an alternative source for information on Frank Turner’s particular version of Life Application Ministries then I’d love to see it. Generally speaking, however, one LAM church is pretty much like the next one just as one Baptist or Catholic church is pretty much like the next one. Whether or not anyone involved in the Life Application Ministries can be said to be one of the “good guys” would depend on where you’re standing I’d imagine. You claim to have alternative facts. Well then share them. Or am I just supposed to take it on faith?

Dear Les
I am not sure how you feel it is ok for you to throw your views around but not the rest of us.  Oh, I forgot, It’s YOUR web site.  If you scroll allitle further down you will find the “other” LAM church.  You might want to check out what they have to say off the news.  It is your duty to find out the truth before you make silly comments.  You professing that there is no God doesn’t make Him go away.  It just makes us want to pray even more for you.

Your first sentence doesn’t make any sense. I feel it’s OK to throw my views around because they are my views and I set up this website in order to publish my views. That’s all this website is for. If you don’t want to hear my views then don’t come to my website. At least I’m not doing it in the middle of an evening newscast when people are expecting to hear the news. Surely if it’s OK for Frank Turner to go on the evening news and throw his views around without asking anyone’s permission then it should be OK for me to throw my views around on my own personal website about his views. You do understand the logic behind that, right?

I tried re-checking Frank’s bio for a link to his church’s website, but there isn’t one listed. I did manage to track it down on the web and there is no info there as to what particular Christian denomination it is a part of. I will admit that I could be entirely mistaken about associating it with the better known Life Application Ministries which I listed in my entry, but there’s no way to tell based on the website the church has up. For all I know it could very well be part of the same group. Is it my duty to try and find out the truth? That’s debatable. There are a lot of people who make very good money by being clueless about what they talk about. I’m not getting paid to do this and I at least tracked down what is regarded as the “official” Life Application Ministries webpage. That’s more than some Political Pundits on the Sunday news programs do.

“You professing that there is no God doesn’t make Him go away.”

You professing that there is a God doesn’t make him any more of a reality either. We can sit here and say “Yes he does!” “No he doesn’t!” all day and it won’t make a damned bit of difference. Unless you’ve got some form of convincing argument to provide then you’re wasting your time trying to convince me that God exists just cause you say he does.

It just makes us want to pray even more for you.

Lady, if you think it’ll make any difference then pray away. You’re certainly not the first person to pray for me and I’m pretty sure you won’t be the last. So far it’s not done a bit of good in providing me with any reason to believe God exists and some of these people praying for me have been at it for years. That has to be pretty frustrating when God won’t even smite me with lightening or something for being such a smart ass about it. The way you phrase it makes it sound like it’s a threat. “Ooooo! You better believe in God or I’LL PRAY FOR YOU! YOU’LL BE IN TROUBLE THEN!”

Yes, I’m mocking you.

You don’t have to like my views about Frank Turner. He’s probably a very fine, upstanding gentleman who has never done anything wrong in his life and brings joy and light wherever he goes. That doesn’t mean I have to like him chastising me for not praying enough when he should just report the damned news, which is what my rant was all about in the first place. Pray for me if you must. Every minute you waste on your knees is another minute you’re not out voting and screwing up the government. In fact, the more time you spend praying for me the happier I’ll be as it’ll keep you off the streets.

You sound angry.  I’m sorry if I upset you. The fact that you post your views on your opening web site is offensive. I don’t like my son (8) to see this language.  And yes, he can read.  I was only interested in what you had to say about my friend.  The truth of the matter is, Frank used to sound just like you. Angry and lost. He was the worst of the worst. Drugs, alchol, sex, lies, and much more.  Now he doesn’t.  Thats my only point. We (christians) seem to be in more trouble than any other religion for our views.  I’m not trying to defend God...He can handle that all by Him self.  He will reach you some day, and weather my praying or someone else’s gets through is not really going to change my views either.  If He saves you fine, if not fine.

Angry? No, I’m not angry. Slightly annoyed at having someone tell me I can’t express my views on my own website, perhaps, but not angry. If anything I have found this little exchange to be very amusing and am having a great time chatting with you.

You find that I post my views on my “opening website” offensive? I’m assuming you mean that the word “bastard” is on the main page? It’s also in the URL. Or is it the fact that I admit to being an atheist on my main page that bothers you? Whatever it is you find offensive, well, all I can say is you don’t have to keep coming back.

As for your son reading it, and at the age of 8 I should certainly hope he can read, I suggest you install one of the many available web filtering packages out there such as CyberSitter or NetNanny and then you won’t have to worry that he’ll read my opinions or my dirty words. The fact that the word “bastard” is right in my URL alone will pretty much guarantee it’ll be blocked from his view. In fact, you could have avoided the trauma of hearing me complain about Frank Turner if you had installed one of them earlier yourself.

Not that I understand why you’d have a problem with the word “bastard” as it is Biblical in both nature and use:

In the Old Testament the rendering of the Hebrew word _mamzer’_, which means “polluted.” In Deut. 23:2, it occurs in the ordinary sense of illegitimate offspring. In Zech. 9:6, the word is used in the sense of foreigner. From the history of Jephthah we learn that there were bastard offspring among the Jews (Judg. 11:1-7). In Heb. 12:8, the word (Gr. nothoi) is used in its ordinary sense, and denotes those who do not share the privileges of God’s children.

If it’s good enough for the Good Book then I don’t see why I can’t use it.

Frank’s story is a wonderful and uplifting tale which I suggest you write up and send into Reader’s Digest. Too bad I don’t share it. I’m not a particularly angry person. I don’t drink alcohol at all and have never done an illegal drug. I don’t even smoke cigarettes. I have been known to lie on occasion to save someone’s feelings on some trite or trivial matter, but when it counts I’m as honest as they come. Most folks who know me in person find me to be personable, friendly, and relatively cheerful. All in all my life has been, if you’ll pardon the expression, very blessed.

Christians do seem to whine about being overly persecuted for their religious stance, but I’m sure I can point you to more than a few Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, and Buddhists in just my town alone who have probably gone through more shit because of their religious views than any Christian has. It’s hard to buy into the Christians-are-persecuted-too-much-in-this-country line of thinking when Christians make up the majority religion. If you’re overly persecuted it’s because you’re largely doing it to yourselves, which is just stupid.

It’s a good thing you’re not trying to defend God because so far you’ve done a terrible job of it. I’m perfectly willing to have God save me anytime God feels the need to up the score in his little galactic popularity contest, but so far He’s either too busy or too non-existent to make the effort. I won’t be holding my breath waiting for it to happen anytime soon.

ok

Keep talking Les, I love it. When I first saw your website, I thought that maybe you would be a person who could present a clear, articulate, and cogent arguement for your beliefs. Usually athiests just bitch and moan about how religion has done them wrong, and generally sound like boring assholes with too much time on their hands. I assumed you were no different but I was willing to give you a chance. So I read your comments with an open mind, and you are not boring!  Oh, you’re an asshole to be sure.  But your shallow rants are so lame that they can only be taken within a comedic context. I would say that no one could be so stupid, but apparently you are Les.  After all you took the time and expense to put together this site So keep on keepin’ on, because an idiot like you is the best friend religion ever had.

Keep talking Les, I love it. When I first saw your website, I thought that maybe you would be a person who could present a clear, articulate, and cogent arguement for your beliefs. Usually athiests just bitch and moan about how religion has done them wrong, and generally sound like boring assholes with too much time on their hands. I assumed you were no different but I was willing to give you a chance. So I read your comments with an open mind, and you are not boring!  Oh, you’re an asshole to be sure.  But your shallow rants are so lame that they can only be taken within a comedic context. I would say that no one could be so stupid, but apparently you are Les.  After all you took the time and expense to put together this site So keep on keepin’ on, because an idiot like you is the best friend religion ever had.

You’re the one who can’t figure out how to put in a comment without posting it twice and you’re calling me stupid? Granted, you’re at least smart enough to see the comedic approach I take to responding to some of the less challenging folks who attempt to show me the error of my ways, but apparently you’re not up to the challenge of offering anything in the way of worthy debate as an alternative. If those who are engaging me in discourse can’t be bothered to offer up something worthy of debating then why should I put any more effort into responding to them?

Want intelligent discussion? Offer up something other than insults and opinions on my relative intelligence. Challenge me with some rational argument as to why I should buy into the bullshit that is organized religion. I’m shallow and lame? Have you even read some of the responses from your fellow believers on this site? They make me look like a friggin’ Einstein in comparison. So far you’ve failed to impress neither with your commentary or your ability to post it on the first try. But thanks for sharing just the same.

Shame on you Les...God DOES exist! I asked the Easter Bunny and he conferred with the Holy Ghost and Bigfoot and the conclusion? God 1 Les 0. Snicker

Hey man, don’t be dissin’ my homey the Easter Bunny!

I posted it twice because the best way to teach or train lower primates is through repitition.  Hey, don’t bitch at me Les. I’m on your side. Or you’re on my side. As I told you before( twice actually, which just proves my point about repitition- thanks for being your own worst enemy), a dipshit like youwill just drive people to a religious viewpoint. I mean some may want to be counted among the heathen, but no one wants to be counted among the intellectually deficient. Now as far as debate goes, we’ll start with something simple: If all physical matter comes from a given source, e.g., books from authors or buildings from design and construction, then how do you think existence came into being? Now don’t give me some nonsense about spontaneous generation or big bangs or Darwinism because the original cell or trigger mechanism had to come from somewhere? One other thing, don’t answer my question with a question. I want to first here what you believe on this subject and then you may ask me a question and I will answer you. This is honest debate and dialogue. Have a great day.

Sounds like somebody gave John a big bag of angry rhetoric for X-mas. It is funny how smart some people feel when they get behind the keyboard and merge onto the information super-highway, only to leave their blinker on for the whole trip.

Now the funny thing about John’s examples are that since both books and buildings must be created by men and women it must then of course mean that all matter in the universe had to be created by god. But by extension, who then created god? You have shown us that some intelligent force must be active in the creation of absolutely everything so perhaps god also answers to some higher power, his creator? Possibly there is an infinity of creators and creations, endlessly debating the existence of each other on an infinite number of blogs.

Or maybe, if you wish to argue that this god is some sort of omnipresent being that did not require a creator to come into existence, then you might allow that matter might also have come into existence without guidance from some higher power. Maybe it even followed it’s own path and evolved as it would all for no other reason than it could. If this is a truly “honest debate and dialogue” you might try to consider the possibility.

No matter how intellectually superior to us common primates you might think yourself to be, are you really so vain and arrogant that you think you can know the mind and the will of your god? Do you know for a fact that evolution was not his design, or that the big bang was not how he kick started the universe? You make a lot of presumptions, unless of course you speak with your god (actual exchange of words, not prayer). I like to believe the man who says he is searching for the truth, but I doubt the one who says he found it. You might want to keep searching.

Oh my, aren’t you the clever one! Turning a boneheaded mistake into a witty put-down. Problem is the only person you’re fooling is yourself. Probably doesn’t require much effort to accomplish that either.

Eric has already provided a decent answer to your question, but I’ll toss in my two cents on the subject just the same. The answer is that matter, being just another form of energy, has always existed as energy can not be destroyed. It can only change form. Therefor all things have always existed in one form or another. There is no beginning. There will be no end. There is only constant change. Energy becomes matter. Matter becomes energy.

Perhaps no one wants to be counted amongst the intellectually deficient, but that doesn’t mean a large portion of them don’t fall into the category quite nicely. The worst of the lot mistake their ignorance for superior insight and their superstitions for gospel. Smug in their fantasy viewpoints on the nature of reality they project their own failings onto those around them with overly simplistic attempts at debate wherein they attempt to define the grounds on how others should respond to their questions. By declaring what answers are unworthy of their consideration they manipulate the discussion to their own ends which is not in any way intellectually honest debate or dialog.

Les, how goes it? Havn’t chatted in a day or so.  You are right; I did use a bone-headed mistake by you as the basis for a cheap put down.  But you started the war of cheap put downs with your comment about posting twice as a reflection on my intellect.  Explain something to me Les- why is it that you are so bothered by views that differ from yours?  I enjoy different viewpoints.  Hell, I’m having fun with you and look forward to your daily dose of humanistic clap-trap.  Also, you have implied that I am smug in my fantasy viewpoint.  How would you even know what my viewpoint (fantasy or otherwise) is?  I’ve never stated it.  You have assumed that my position is adversarial to yours because your bitterness is only exceeded by your arrogance.  You might try asking me what my positions are.  Otherwise, you are just firing off responses without knowing what your target is. And that is at best a waste of time, and at worst it could aggravate active or dormant carpel tunnel syndrome from all your typing.  You take care now Les and remember to stick to de-caf.

If you’ll scroll up I think you’ll see that you fired the first salvo in terms of cheap insults. Memory failing you now too? Or do you not consider calling me an asshole and stating that I exceed your expectations for stupidity insulting? Hell of a way to start an intellectually honest debate, but then that was never your purpose.

I’m not bothered by viewpoints that differ from my own, but I am bothered by idiots who have nothing better to do than troll for a flame-war without having anything worthwhile to add to the conversation. So far you’ve had nothing worthwhile to add. At this point I couldn’t care less what your viewpoint is because it’s obvious you’re not here to discuss it. The implication from what you have said is that your viewpoint is adversarial to my own. It doesn’t take bitterness nor arrogance to come to that conclusion based on your statements so far. Arrogance is something I may or may not be guilty of, I am only human, but I’m far from bitter.

I’ll bet the irony of assuming I’m arrogant and bitter and then chastising me for making assumptions about you is totally lost on you. Then again, I’ll bet there’s a lot of stuff that’s totally lost on you. What cracks me up the most about you is that you actually seem to believe you’re making me look foolish.

Les, I don’t have to assume anything.  Your own statements convict you of the charge. You’re bitter about Frank Turner taking up 30 seconds of your time with his take on prayer. Big damn deal. Turn the channel Lester.  We all see things on television that may offend us.  Most do not take the time to write out a whine on a website devoted to our paranoid delusions.  To use the vernacular of the day (and I hate this expression but in your case it fits), “Get a life”.  You are a real piece of work. By the way, I am not trying to make you look foolish nor do I want to. Are you so narcissitic that you really think that me or anyone else really care enough about your pathetic existence to bother. My responses to you are mostly for the typing practice I get writing them.  Unlike you, I’m under no delusion that all knowledge, or even clever wit, resides in me. Or in any human. I believe we probably have more in common than you’ed ever think. We obviously both enjoy wordplay or we wouldn’t devote so much time to this.  Maybe one day we can get together for coffee and have a chat. I know you live in the same general area that I do. Think about it.  Have a good day, Wicked Lester (that’s just an old rock band,so don’t get all worked up. Not good for the blood pressure). If your name is Leslie not Lester, I appologize.

From where I’m standing you’re assuming quite a bit and not just what my full first name might be, which isn’t Lester. What, just using “Les” wasn’t enough? Do you think that by using my full first name you might somehow convince me of your superiority? Oh my goodness! He used my full first name! He must be authoritative! Hold on for a second here… gotta stop laughing before I can continue to type.

You’re assuming I’m bitter about Frank Turner. I’m not bitter about him, I was annoyed at the time and I wrote about it because it helps to vent when you’re annoyed. You act like you’re assuming the whole point of my website is only for this one small rant about Frank Turner. Hell, I rant at much longer lengths about many other topics that I consider way more important than just Frank Turner annoying me. I also write about things I think are positive events or cool ideas or nifty movies or whatever the hell happens to be on my mind at the time. Have you even read any of the rest of my site or are you just “assuming” the rest of it is nothing but more of the same?

You make a lot of assumptions about me and my nature from this one entry and the responses to it. I’ve never claimed to be the keeper of ultimate knowledge or wit. In fact a lot of people seem to be convinced that I’m a lot smarter than I give myself credit for. I believe I’m sharper than most folks, but I think that has more to do with their unwillingness to use their brains than it does with any great amount of knowledge in mine.

Narcissism? Yeah, there’s probably a touch of that in me. Everyone has their crosses to bear, if you’ll pardon the expression. I can also be unmotivated, opinionated, judgmental, and caustic. I’m well aware of what my faults are and I work on improving myself every day. I don’t apologize for them, though. Don’t like me and my failings? Too fucking bad. I’m a human being and I reserve my right to all the failings and frailties that being a human being entails.

Don’t like that I whine on my website about things that bug me? Don’t come to my website! How amazingly simple is that solution? Doesn’t take a big IQ to figure that out, does it? What kind of dumbass comes to a website where he’s annoyed by the fact that the author “whines” about something only to “whine” back at the author to get a life? Apparently you’re that kind of dumbass. You can’t even manage to not do the very things you’re accusing me of doing. That’s just sad. Surely if you’re going to sit there and bitch about my attitude and my bad habits you should avoid engaging in them yourself. I suppose in that aspect we do have a lot in common. If I need to get a life for stating my views then you need one even more for wasting time bitching about them.

Hey Les, I don’t have much time today but I would like to address one area of your e-mail.  You imply that being judgemental may be one of your faults. That just isn’t true.  The ability to judge is a good trait to have.  As a created being or as an evolved being, this is what sets humans apart from the rest of the animal world. We have the ability to assess the relative merits of all things and then make an informed decision on that basis.  You may believe that you are just another level of the evolutionary chain, but I believe you to be much more than that.  You’ve had some very good and thoughtful things to say, and it seems to me that being judgemental is a prerequisite to any meaningful activity.  Have a good day Les. Talk to you later.