Ending the Myth of Horus

Posted by Consigliere on Monday, January 10, 2005 at 06:43 AM. Read 45790 times. Tags:
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[Editor’s Note: It was my intent to have a reply ready before posting this, but I’ve found myself putting it off due to a busy weekend so I’m going to go ahead and post it as is. I’ll address it properly in the comments as soon as I have the opportunity though I’m sure there are several regulars who will probably be more than capable of addressing it first.]



I’ve heard repeated here several times that Horus, an Egyptian god, is carbon copy of Jesus.  The obvious implication by those that have made this statement is that Jesus is a copycat version of an earlier Egyptian deity.  The purpose of this entry is to disembowel that proposition once and for all. 

When I first heard that Horus was the inspiration for Jesus several years ago, I didn’t give it much credence because I couldn’t establish any source material for the claims.  I still can’t, but the internet is as adept at allowing anybody and everybody to pass on misinformation. 

Upon further research, I’ve concluded that this theory originated with Gerald Massey, an English poet, born 1828, died 1927.  He published primarily poems, but had an interest in Egypt.  He parlayed that interest in Egypt into several books and lectures in which he set forth the proposition that Horus was in essence the first Jesus, and Jesus was a cheap imitation.  The primary basis for his writing is the Egyptian Book of the Dead.  This is available on-line and you can easily look it up to read it yourself.  Be forewarned that forced reading of this would be an extremely efficient form of torture. 

It should be noted that Massey’s actual proposition was that Jesus was a copycat from more than just Horus.  According to Massey, Jesus was a compilation of an innumerable number of Egyptian deities.  There were over 2,000 deities who had every human and godlike characteristic one can think of, excepting Superman’s power to stop a speeding bullet.

Since Massey, there is a dearth of anybody with any credentials that has adopted a straight Horus=Jesus theory.  There is a one individual that has adopted some of Massey’s thoughts and incorporated them into a book-The Christ Conspiracy.  This appears to be the basis for the claims that I see.  The author is Acharya S.  Her website is http://www.truthbeknown.com I note that Richard Price, a noted Christ Myther, and one that I take much more seriously then Acharya, said the following:

“Those of use who uphold any version of the controversial Christ Myth theory find ourselves immediately the object not just of criticism, but even of ridicule. And it causes us chagrin to be lumped together with certain writers with whom we share the Christ Myth butt little else.....

His other criticism, like mine, is that she uses very dated sources (19th Century) who were in Price’s words “eccentrics, freethinkers, and theosophists.”

Les, I am using your post from 1/3/05 as an example of the claims because you carry more credibility than most. That said here are the claims and what I have found:

Claim #1-Horus and Jesus are born from a virgin. 

Horus’s mother is Isis.  Isis was married to Osiris.  We do not know for what length of time, but presumably the marriage was consummated.  Whether it was or wasn’t doesn’t matter though.  After Osiris is killed, Isis puts him back together again (he was hacked into 14 pieces) except for his penis which was tossed in a river or a lake.  Iris fashions a substitute penis for him, humps him and here comes Horus.  There is nothing virginal about that.

Claim #2-Both Horus and Jesus were born to a Mary and Joseph. (Seb)

As noted Isis is Horus’s mother’s name not Mary.  In addition, Seb is not Horus’s father, Osiris is.  Seb is Osiris’s father.  Further, Seb is a distinct name from Joseph.  Putting them side by side does not make them synonyms, and that appears to be what was done here.

Claim #3-Both were born of royal descent.

This is accurate.

Claim #4-Both births were announced by angels and witnessed by shepherds. 

I can find nothing that mentions that the birth of Horus was announced by an angel or witnessed by shepherds.  I have found that Horus was born in a swamp, which is a pretty unlikely place for shepherds.  In addition Acharya mentions that Horus was born in a cave.  Massey makes no mention of this, although he does represent that Mithra was born in a cave. 

Claim #5-Both were heralded by stars and angels. 

There is no star that heralded Horus’s birth nor is there any angel announcing it.  Archarya in a footnote in The Origins of Christianity indicates that that there are three stars named the three kings in Orion and then relates this to the birth of Jesus.  When we look to the stories regarding Horus, we find no star or angel announcing his birth.  To the extent that Acharya S relies upon Massey and Massey relies upon what is depicted in the panels at Luxor see (from an atheist) further regarding virgin birth and pronouncement by angels http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/carrier_luxor_inscription.htm

Claim #6-Both had later visitors (Horus-3 deities and Jesus-3 wisemen.)

There is no indication that there ever were 3 wisemen.  The bible never mentions the number of wisemen, nor is there any document that reflects 3 deities at the birth of Horus.  See the website referenced in Claim #5.

Claim #7-Both had murder plots against them. 

There is mention that Seth did want to kill Horus, and Herod wanted to kill Jesus.  so this is accurate.

Claim#8-Both came of age at 12, were baptized and their baptizers were executed. 

There is no indication that Horus was preaching in a temple when he was 12.  In fact, Massey indicates that Hours the child was depicted as a “weakling.” That doesn’t jive with story of Jesus preaching in the temple.  Again this appears to have been a confabulation from Acharya and repeated by others. 

Horus was never baptized in any of the Horus stories.  In addition, Acharya mentions that John the Baptist is actually Anup the Baptizer.  This individual is never mentioned anywhere in any Horus account.  There is not even a footnote in Archaya’s on-line work The Origins of Christianity to support this.  There is nothing.

Claim #9-Both had 12 disciples. 

According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers.  There is some indication of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him.  Horus did not have 12 disciples. Jesus reportedly did.  Acharya failed to give a footnote to support this.

Massey points to a mural in the Book of Hades in which there are twelve reapers.  Horus is not present in this scene.  For Massey to make this connection he goes to a different scene within the same mural.  In this scene there is a picture of a god whose name is the Master of Joy.  Horus is never depicted although in other murals the artists do depict Horus.  Had the artists ascribed 12 reapers in any relation to Horus all they had to do was put Horus at the scene.  They did not. 

Claim #10-Both walked on water.

Horus didn’t, or at least there is no record that I can find that he did.  Massey does not maintain that Hours did.  Massey uses wild conjecture to connect the story of fish man, Oannes, not Horus, to Jesus.  Oannes came out of the sea during the day, and went back into the sea at night.  Massey makes the two analogous because by his calculations, Jesus walked on water during the day. 

As to Acharya, she as usual provides nothing to substantiate this. 

Claim #11-Both performed miracles. 

This is true although the miracles were different in scope and nature.

Claim #12 Both exorcised demons and raised Lazarus. 

The actual claim is that Horus raised Osiris from the dead and that the name Osiris morphed to Lazarus.  It doesn’t matter because Horus did not bring Osiris back to life.  There is no mention of this in any document regarding the story.  Horus did avenge Osiris’s death, but that did not raise Osiris from the dead. 

Claim #13-Both held a Sermon on the Mount; both were transfigured on a mountain, died by crucifixion along with two thieves and were buried in tombs where they paid a quick visit to Hell and then rose from the dead after 3 days time, both resurrections were witness by women, and both will supposedly reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.

These are the most damning claims if they were proven true in my opinion.  Yet, I can locate none of this.  No sermon, no transfiguration, certainly no crucifixion w/ two thieves, no trip to hell and no resurrection.  There was an incident in which Horus was torn to pieces and Iris requested the crocodile god to fish him out of the water he was tossed into, which was done, but that’s it.  I am at a loss to refute this because I can not find anything to support it.

Massey does compares a story about the Autumn Equinox related to Osiris, not Horus, as the symbolic crucifixion.  There is no indication that Horus is involved in any way.  There is no mention by Massey of any Sermon on the Mount.  No mention or any actual crucifixion, no two thieves, no burial in a tomb.  Massey does not maintain that anything of the sort occurred with Horus. 

In short, of the claims outlined in this entry, I find the comparison between Horus and Jesus to consist of the following: they were of royal descent, they allegedly worked miracles and there were murder plots against them. 

Comments:

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john legler United States Posted on 03/21/2008 at 08:43 PM

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The problem with the original post is that it assumes that the Book of the Dead is equivalent to the Bible, when in fact it is not.  Remember the Bible is only a collection of stories. The Book of the Dead is also a collection of stories, but it is not an exhaustive collection.  There are hundreds of stories not appearing in the Book of the Dead that are a part of Egyptian mythology. The Book of the Dead was important to Egyptians because it was a guide to the afterlife that was brought with individuals to their tombs.  So with the book of the dead, you get what is necessary for your spirits travels in between the underworld and back to your body.  You will find the story of the Death and Resurrection of Horus in the Magical Stela. See http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm

Consigliere United States Posted on 03/23/2008 at 12:31 PM

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Oh me, oh my!  The thread drift that exists in this thread was not at all what I had in mind. 

Elwed:

It bears remembering that a single poster made a claim about the relationship of two mythical figures, Jesus and Horus and another poster took offense. I’m not going to refresh my memory by rereading the thread, but I don’t recall anybody else jumping in to defend the original claim.

Am not sure whether you are referencing Nunya or myself.  In any event, to refresh the collective memory, Nunya, Les, and several others here were making statements that Jesus=Horus. That is what brought on the original post.

To date, and with respect to the original post that Jesus was a carbon copy of Horus, that has been effectively refuted.  Patness has agree with that assessment as have several others who I’m not familiar with because I don’t visit enough anymore.

Yourself, zilch and GM prefer to not weigh in and concede the original point.  Instead, you go to the broader point that all religions are man-made and have the same common themes and sometimes rituals.

I shall not take issue with the interesting duality of having your cake and eating to in the form of the following positions that you have set forth:

1) Atheism is only a lack of belief (for which I have no burden whatsoever)

2) Religions are man-made (A very positive assertion that does have a burden).

Carry on.

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Consigliere United States Posted on 03/23/2008 at 12:34 PM

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Oh and one more comment, zilch, the haploid take was priceless.  Absolutely priceless.  Was laughing for quite some time over that.

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To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
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zilch Sweden Posted on 03/23/2008 at 01:31 PM

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I’m glad you liked my haploid Jesus, consi.  There’s hope you will give your soul to Darwin yet.

About the burden of proof that religions are man-made.  I imagine you would concede that at least some religions are man-made, such as Scientology and cargo cults, n’est-ce pas?  Perhaps you might even say the majority of religions are man-made.  In any case, I could just as well say to you: since it’s obvious that many, perhaps most, religions are man-made, the burden of proof falls rather on those who claim that one (or perhaps a few) religions are different.

While there is no obvious right or wrong place for the burden of proof- it’s a matter of practicality- it seems to me that usually, those making the stronger, more complex, more extraordinary claims, can be more reasonably expected to bear the bulk of the proof, and the more extraordinary the claims the more proof they should require.

In the case of whether religions are man-made or not, since some at least are obviously man-made, and the way they came into being is very fully documented, without resorting to magic, and the fact that there’s no compelling reason to believe that not all religions originated similarly; then someone who claims that there is a supernatural superpowerful invisible being who inspires some particular religion (or religions) seems, in my humble opinion, to have shouldered the bulk of the burden of proof.

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Nunyabiz United States Posted on 03/24/2008 at 05:12 PM

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Jeebus, cant believe this thread is still drawing breath.
I have only read just a bit after where I left off a few years ago so I have no idea what has or hasn’t been said the last 2 years.

2 things remain the same however, 3 years ago I refuted Consi’s 12 points completely one by one.

and the FACT that the character of Jesus is a MYTH, this was not a historical figure but mythological, he was an “allegory” a “personification” of the SUN just like Horus was and Attis, Dionysus, Krishna, Apollo, Sol, and so on ad nauseum.
This takes no faith as it is Archaeological fact that all of these deities are the personification of the SUN they all share many many similarities some are absolutely Identical others are so close that the meaning is only lost on those refusing to accept fact over faith.

ALL of these mythical characters are without any question Solar Deities.

The Bible along with many other religious text are just “esoteric ideas” and have “many levels of meaning and interpretation” (this one being one of the main reasons why religion in all its forms has caused so much death, hatred, wars, genocide etc.) This was what was known as the “Inner & Outer Mystery Schools” which was THE main reason for virtually all religious text prior to Christian orthodoxy squashing Gnosticism which was basically around the time of the Nicene Creed (325CE).
In fact that was pretty much one of the main reasons that Constantine commissioned the first canonized Bible through the Council of Nicaea.
Constantine wanted control of the masses and every where he went in every church in every pagan temple etc the masses were ‘interpreting” all of these many text in hundreds of different ways. There were I believe at least 56 main “Gospels” plus numerous other texts and most all were highly contradictory and most all interpreted the “divine being” whether it be Baalam, Yeshu, The Teacher of Righteousness, and in later text “Iesous” (AKA Jesus, the actual name Jesus did not even exist until about 500 years ago) as just a “spirit” not a REAL being.

Iesous was without any doubt just a continuation of the many previous “Sun Gods”, all of these religions were based in Astrology, Numerology and so forth.
There was never any such “real” person as any “Jesus of Nazareth” this is without any question a purely fictional character.
The NT is clearly an Astrological Drama written in the old Pagan Passion Play style, that is why the bible is written in these verses because it is a piece meal of various text that pretty much all come from what many consider the “gospel of Q”.  The Gospel “according to” Mark pretty much copied “Q” which no longer exist probably burned in the Library of Alexandria or some other ritual destruction of allegedly heretic text.  Anyway Mark, Matthew, Luke are all pretty much the same probably written some 10-30 years apart with Mark being the first and simplest written sometime between 70-75CE then Matthew probably between 80-85CE, Luke most likely around 85-95CE these were known and the “Synoptic Gospels” because they were all basically alike the only difference being that each one in succession just magically got MORE intricate and more fanciful adding miracles and tall tales attributed to the main character as is usually the case in Oral Tradition and when the author wanted to one up the previous version.
Then of course John comes along decades later probably around 110-125CE with his even more fantastical version just chock full of miracles and magic and quite a bit different than the other 3.

Now nobody has a clue to whom these “authors” really were, these were all Pseudo-anonymous writings which was extremely common place back then, even today it still is, Mark Twain for instance was Samuel Clemens and there are hundreds of others.
These Gospels which were hand picked by the Council of Nicaea while burning all the many others was meant to get everyone “on the same page” so to speak and Constantine in essence made Iesous “real” by declaring him divine and denouncing Arianism and making “this version” of Christianity the State religion.
Thus over the course of a few hundred years this purely fictitious character which originally was just an allegory in an Astrological Drama meant to be acted out on a stage, a “Personification of the SUN” was slowly but surely transformed from allegorical into a historical figure.

Even though during the time of this so called Jesus alleged existence which was one of the most documented centuries in history, there were numerous well known and very prolific historians that wrote about virtually anything and everything under the sun, common everyday life sometimes in excruciating detail.
However this infamous Jesus known throughout the land far & wide with great multitudes of people that followed him everywhere he went, he performed many miracles, healed the sick, cured the blind, walked on water, upon his alleged death there was a enormous Earthquake all though out the land, the entire Earth shrouded in darkness for 3 hours and the bodies of saints rising from the dead in Jerusalem showing themselves to many people and on & on yet not a single historian of the day bothers to mention such a spectacle?
Absolutely impossible.
As a matter of fact not a single word written about this alleged Jesus by anybody of any kind until at least 70CE some 40 years or so later?
On face value the existence of this godman going on empirical evidence is not even worthy of discussion.

Then when one takes into account the clear & obvious similarities between this mythical figure Vs various other Sun Gods then the whole concept of Christianity just becomes silly.

The NT ONLY makes sense when one places an Astrological Template over it. I have read the bible cover to cover 3X, only on the 3rd and final time did it make even the slightest bit of sense and that was when I had learned of the Astrological beginnings & meanings, that the entire NT is just an Astrological Drama with the characters allegorical for various cosmic deities.

Jesus the main character in this little tale is the personification of the SUN, he first meets “John the Baptist” which is allegorical for “Aquarius” the water bearer.
Next on the suns journey he meets “the 2 fishermen” this is Pisces and so on. (January Febuary March etc as the SUN/Jesus marches through the Zodiac, yearly sun cycle)
The Suns birth and death on Dec 25th Winter Solstice, the rebirth of life in spring the Vernal Equinox, the Sun is “most high” in Summer.
Jesus (the SUN) rides both an “Ass & a Foal” into Jerusalem one might ask well just how the hell could he do that?  Well its easy when what you are really taking about is the SUN going through the Constellation of Cancer of which the 2 stars making up part of the head are today called Asellus Borealis and Asellus Australis which means the Northern & Southern Ass.
In older star charts such as from the Chaldean’s these 2 stars were known as “The Ass & the Foal”
Thus Jesus (The SUN) rides both the Ass & the Foal into Jerusalem, piece O cake once you realize that what you are reading is part of that inner & outer mystery school “secrets”.

The few parts of the Bible that are non fiction are simply just a few places such as Jerusalem, Rome, Babylon, various geographical areas as the setting of this Astrological drama indeed are real, the authors did not claim it was taking place on some fictional planet.
There were a few well known real people mentioned to give minor credence to the story such as Julius Caesar, Nebuchadnezzar, Judas Maccabee (actually Judas Hasmonaeans) the name “Maccabee” was a surname or nickname that meant “Battle hammer”, anyway there were of course some real people in these stories but by far the vast majority are “allegorical” characters that were meant to be used as a vehicle to transmit ideas, & in parables to get profound meanings across in an imaginative way.
Hercules for instance is a classic example, Same with Samson, they were not real historical people, they were allegorical figures brought to life as vivid personalities to spread the ideas the authors were hoping to transmit to the reader or really back then the “Orator” as these tales were exactly that, oral tradition passed down & around, these tales were the Theater/TV of their day & the Orators were the actors & rock stars of the time.

In order to claim open mindedness towards Biblical narratives one MUST ask, what is true, what isn’t, where do these stories originate?

To find that out take what is known fact within reasonable doubt which is the beginnings of this story originate with the Jewish/Hebrew culture sometime around 600BCE.

Ok, what do we know about the Jewish people in that time in history which is collaborated by several sources?  They were in exile in Babylon.

Who were the Babylonians in c.600BCE, what did they believe, who were their gods, their religion/rituals? What do we know about the “mystery schools”? Aware that words over 2 millennia ago sometimes meant something completely different than their common usage today? for instance the word “Wisdom” more than 2000 years ago meant “Knowledge of Astrology” (This is where we get the 3 Wise men from, they were “Magi/Astrologers") the word “Truth” which you see both of these words all though out the Bible usually was referring to “Secrets”.

This verse which is just one out many takes on a new meaning when you actually know what it is you are reading because many times words back then had a completely different meaning than they do today.

If we continue in His teachings then we shall know the truth (the secrets) and these truths (secrets) will liberate us and make us free, with the ability and power to make others free. (John 8:31,32)

Well “secrets” referred to the “secret doctrines” of the Inner & Outer Mystery schools.

What do we know about the various stories and where they originate?  I’ll name just a couple, see if you can tell me the related story. Between the twenty-first and twenty-fourth of December the nights are the darkest and longest of the entire year and were known to ancient astrologers as the Whale’s Belly, this has reference to the winter constellation Cetus, the Whale. Now what story in the Bible was derived from this Chaldean Astrological text?

What about the Chaldean king, Sargon? ever heard of him? probably not but I bet you have heard of his story. At Sargon’s birth, his mother the queen placed him in a bitumen-lined basket and laid it among the river bulrushes where a water-carrier found him and took him home and brought him up as her own.  Sound familiar? Well this was written over 1000 years prior to the Biblical version.

Ever read the “Chaldean Book of Numbers”?

If you “really” want to know anything about the Bible then you need to read about Sumerian/Kemetic/Babylonian religion, stop reading the Bible itself .

There is virtually nothing in the Bible that can not be traced back to much older Pagan religions & rituals.

Last_Hussar Great Britain (UK) Posted on 03/24/2008 at 06:21 PM

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Jeebus, cant believe this thread is still drawing breath.

Well you know how it is- you think on the Friday it’s dead, but then on the Sunday it springs to life again…

I wouldn’t go as far as to say there was ‘no Jesus’.  I am quite prepared to concede that there was a wandering preacher around 33AD.  A first century conspiracy is harder to accept- a bunch of blokes got together and made the whole thing up, casting themselves as chief followers.

There was a documentary on Channel 4 last night about how the Church misrepresents the ‘history’. It did seem to take Jesus as a given, and instead looked at what I suppose could be called the ‘Take over’ by Peter, and then by Rome. 

For instance the earliest Christian mission is claimed to be the one of Thomas is India, a claim the Vatican is desperate to suppress.  Thomas arrived well before any of the others had travelled any distance.

The original post Ascension leader was Jesus brother James(?name), the mantle then passing to another brother. Both airbrushed by first the Catholic church, and then never reinstated by protestant splits.

There is a good chance that ‘a’ Jesus was around 2000 years ago- Israel was lousy with prophets and messiah. One of them got the ‘Hollywood’ treatment.

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Bog Brother United States Posted on 03/24/2008 at 07:59 PM

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There is a good chance that ‘a’ Jesus was around 2000 years ago- Israel was lousy with prophets and messiah. One of them got the ‘Hollywood’ treatment.

Not to mention the name itself was fairly common, and the other fact that due to the Roman occupation, there was a wannabe messiah popping up in Israel about once a week. I can’t see how it would be possible that the Jesus we all know and...know could possibly be just another one of these though.  Much more likely that he was the real thing...Real Undead Zombie that is.

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leguru United States Posted on 03/25/2008 at 12:15 AM

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Unlike Last Hussar, I WOULD go so far as to say there was no “Jesus.” Certainly, not of Nazareth, which did not exist until about 60 years after his “death.” And for similar reasons to those enumerated by Nunyabiz. Try reading, oh, I don’t know, maybe, “The Gnostic Gospels,” by Elaine Pagels, “The Lost Gospel, the Book of Q & Christian Origins,” by Burton L. Mack, “The Five Gospels,” by The Jesus Seminar, “The Hiram Key,” by Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas, “Encyclopedia of Gods,” by Michael Jordan. These all offer numerous resources to search for yourself. But, then, perhaps you refuse to be confused by the facts, since your mind is already made up. Sometimes I can’t even convince my wife, so who am I?  wink

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m.wael alkel Cyprus Posted on 03/25/2008 at 09:29 PM

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guys my email almost got filled with this post please fundamentalists save every one some time and start reading the comments from the start then post , trolls leave now before I call mighty satan to eat ya all lol

Bog Brother United States Posted on 03/25/2008 at 09:34 PM

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guys my email almost got filled with this post

I had the same problem, but then I chose to unsubscribe and they stopped crowding my inbox...crap, looks like it’s started again.

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Webs United States Posted on 03/26/2008 at 12:41 AM

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What email client are you using? Or perhaps a more appropriate question, why aren’t you using Gmail for subscribed posts? With Labeling system and 6.5GB of storage it’s the best for blogs, as well as everyday mail.

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m.wael alkel Cyprus Posted on 03/26/2008 at 01:24 AM

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I worked in a company called myway.com the company started really hard with the objective of beating yahoo in 1- less spam , 2-bigger mail box , 3- faster browsing and we had our speed comparison meters all over the place to tell you that we are 0.09 sec faster than yahoo , then yahoo bulled the $$$$ and flushed us out , i quit my job but had my email for years with no change , if I change it now disasters are going to happen

Bog Brother United States Posted on 03/26/2008 at 05:54 AM

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I was just being facetious. I do use gmail.

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I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men.

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Dan United States Posted on 03/27/2008 at 07:48 AM

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There are many Similarities between the 2 and the Mythology of Mythraism is older than Christianity, so it was Christians that copied some of the attributes if Mythras into the fictional character of Jesus which is also an allegory for the Sun.

Mithras emerged fully grown from a rock.Had 1 close follower.He killed a bull to release its life force for his followers.
Do You see any similarities.I do no.
It is also interesting to note that Roman Mithraism post-dates the start of Christianity

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 03/27/2008 at 07:55 AM

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Mithras emerged fully grown from a rock.Had 1 close follower.He killed a bull to release its life force for his followers.

Born from a rock, born from a virgin.
Had followers.
Killed a bull, had himself killed.

Do You see any similarities.I do no.

I do.

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Dan United States Posted on 03/27/2008 at 08:10 AM

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So speaking of claims that “can’t be substantiated”.  Neither can your “belief” in Christianity based solely on “faith”.

Let me define faith with a quote from theologian, W.H. Griffith Thomas. “ [Faith] affects the whole of man’s nature. It commences with the conviction of the mind based on adequate evidence; it continues in the confidence of the heart of emotions based on conviction, and it is crowned in the consent of the will, by means of which the conviction and confidence are expressed in conduct.”
Christianity is based on evidence.Evidence for the resurrection , the empty tomb and for Jesus

Yet you demand absolute 101% irrefutable, undeniable, positively provable from every angle rock solid *Proof* of anything that goes against your belief of your particular Sun God.  Then of course even if you are given that proof, the very nature of your mythological magical beliefs makes it incredibly easy to flatly deny it all at the wave of a magic wand.  So basically as it stands there is NOTHING that I can ever say or do or prove to any degree that will ever sway your mind from believing in the fairytale of Christianity, nor can I get you to understand that ALL these mythologies/Religions are all inter-related and all based on what you consider Paganism, they are all based on Astrology & Numerology, that fact is plain to me, but NEVER will be to YOU.

This is what atheists always accuse Christians are doing.
Atheist: Jesus is borrowed from pagan mythology ,here is the fact
Christian:No those parallels are weak and are not supported by any mythology.Here is what the real mythology says
Atheist:Stupid Christian

It was hilarious to me how you tried to somehow tie the impregnation of the egyptian goddesss to mary.You go to great lengths to find a parrallel and when it is disproven you try to stretch it to meet your needs.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 03/27/2008 at 11:43 AM

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Let me define faith with a quote from theologian, W.H. Griffith Thomas. “ [Faith] affects the whole of man’s nature. It commences with the conviction of the mind based on adequate evidence; it continues in the confidence of the heart of emotions based on conviction, and it is crowned in the consent of the will, by means of which the conviction and confidence are expressed in conduct.”

That definition neatly showcases why atheists take issue with religious faith.

Christianity is based on evidence.Evidence for the resurrection , the empty tomb and for Jesus

That would be “evidence”, not evidence. Out of morbid curiosity, is this supposed to be “adequate evidence” before giving the “consent of will”, or “evidence” accepted after surrendering the facility of critical thinking?

This is what atheists always accuse Christians are doing.
Atheist: Jesus is borrowed from pagan mythology ,here is the fact
Christian:No those parallels are weak and are not supported by any mythology.Here is what the real mythology says
Atheist:Stupid Christian

Never done this myself and I’ve only very rarely encountered atheists who argue like this. I very frequently encounter Christians who fit that mold, though.

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Dan United States Posted on 03/27/2008 at 06:32 PM

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Now nobody has a clue to whom these “authors” really were, these were all Pseudo-anonymous writings which was extremely common place back then

Tacitus’ woks are internally anonymous-do you suggest they are unreliable as well

Thus over the course of a few hundred years this purely fictitious character which originally was just an allegory in an Astrological Drama meant to be acted out on a stage, a “Personification of the SUN” was slowly but surely transformed from allegorical into a historical figure.

So tacitus and Josephus were writing about some myth.snake

Even though during the time of this so called Jesus alleged existence which was one of the most documented centuries in history, there were numerous well known and very prolific historians that wrote about virtually anything and everything under the sun, common everyday life sometimes in excruciating detail.

Um there was no document published during Jesus’ lifetime

However this infamous Jesus known throughout the land far & wide with great multitudes of people that followed him everywhere he went, he performed many miracles,

John the Baptist performed miracles and he baptised multitudes.Who mentions him , only the bible(WHICH ALL ATHEISTS KNOW IS REALLY UNRELIABLE) and the historian Josephus.

As a matter of fact not a single word written about this alleged Jesus by anybody of any kind until at least 70CE some 40 years or so later?
On face value the existence of this godman going on empirical evidence is not even worthy of discussion.

Nobody ever mentions John the Baptist until many years after his life.Nobody mentions Appolonius of Tyrana until 200 years after his death.Most Jewish rabbis of the time period don’t have contemporanious references either.(Gameliel ,Hillel)

Then when one takes into account the clear & obvious similarities between this mythical figure Vs various other Sun Gods then the whole concept of Christianity just becomes silly.

Are you quoting Zeitgeist?
(We all love the 4 star scholarship of Archarya S.)

the entire NT is just an Astrological Drama with the characters allegorical for various cosmic deities.


Now let’s see you stretch these parallels so they can fit

The Suns birth and death on Dec 25th Winter Solstice

Jesus was not born anywhere near December.Palestinian shepherds do not tend their flocks in the middle of winter

, the rebirth of life in spring the Vernal Equinox, the Sun is “most high” in Summer.

No this is date tied to the Jewish passover tradition-nothing to do with astrology.

Jesus (the SUN) rides both an “Ass & a Foal” into Jerusalem one might ask well just how the hell could he do that?

No Jesus rides only a foal-You probaly misread the passage in Matthew.You cannot sit on 2 animals.In any event he was fulfilling the messianic prophecy of Zechariah-It is distinctly Jewish

Dan United States Posted on 03/27/2008 at 06:58 PM

Dan pic

Mithra said, “He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”

Well actually this is not authentic.This is from JP Holding

This saying is appealed to also by Freke and Gandy [Frek.JM, 49], and it took me some digging to discover it’s actual origin. Godwin says that the reference is from a “Persian Mithraic text,” but does not give the dating of this text, nor say where it was found, nor offer any documentation; that I found finally in Vermaseren [Verm.MSG, 103]—the source of this saying is a medieval text; and the speaker is not Mithras, but Zarathustra! Although Vermaseren suggested that this might be the formula that Justin referred to (but did not describe at all) as being part of the Mithraic “Eucharist,” there is no evidence for the saying prior to this medieval text. (Freke and Gandy, and now Acharya, try to give the rite some ancestry by claiming that it derives from an Iranian Mithraic ceremony using a psychadelic plant called Haoma, but they are clearly grasping at straws and adding speculations of meaning in order to make this rite seem similar to the Eucharist.) This piece of “evidence” is far, far too late to be useful—except as possible proof that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity! (Christianity of course was in Persia far earlier than this medieval text; see Martin Palmer’s Jesus Sutras for details.)

The closest thing that Mithraism had to a “Last Supper” was the taking of staples (bread, water, wine and meat) by the Mithraic initiates, which was perhaps a celebration of the meal that Mithra had with the sun deity after slaying the bull. However, the meal of the initiates is usually seen as no more than a general fellowship meal of the sort that was practiced by groups all over the Roman world—from religious groups to funereal societies. [MS.348]

Dan United States Posted on 03/27/2008 at 07:02 PM

Dan pic

Born from a rock, born from a virgin.
Had followers.
Killed a bull, had himself killed.
I do.

I hope you aren’t being serious.

Yes there is, Mithras is yet another Sun God exactly the same as the Sun God Jesus.

Mithras technically may be an astrological representation of Persues.Don’t see anywhere they called him a sun god

Patness Canada Posted on 03/27/2008 at 07:15 PM

Patness pic

Dan:

Born from a rock, born from a virgin.
Had followers.
Killed a bull, had himself killed.
I do.

I hope you aren’t being serious.

While I can appreciate the facetiousness of Elwed’s statements, that remains a literary problem - the similarities we allow are based entirely on how generally we are willing to make comparisons. Think of the phone game - how much do the names, faces, and roles have to change before we say “no, these things are not similar enough”? Where’s the definition?

Elwed had a really great quote from March 18th, 8:18PM. Strongly suggest stepping back a page to read it.

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Dan United States Posted on 03/27/2008 at 07:17 PM

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Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, .....

Well not so according to a study dome by Feldman , who found that few Josephan scholars contended that the passage was a full forgery.Most said that it had some partial interpolations-but the original reference to it was genuine.
By the way the 2nd Jamesian reference is held to be fully authentic.

According to Feldman’s discernible statistics [Feld.JosMod, 684-91] , 4 scholars regard the larger passage as completely genuine, 6 more as mostly genuine; 20 accept it with some interpolations, 9 with several interpolations; 13 regard it as being totally an interpolation as Wells does.) Twleftree [Twel.GosP5, 300] , offering an unusual view, rejects the smaller passage on rather thin terminological grounds, but strangely, accepts most of the larger passage as genuine! Needless to say, there is plenty of discussion about these passages, and we will only be able to touch the tip of the iceberg.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 03/27/2008 at 08:47 PM

elwedriddsche pic

I hope you aren’t being serious.

As Patness said, it’s just a matter of thresholding.

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Dan United States Posted on 03/28/2008 at 01:52 AM

Dan pic

While I can appreciate the facetiousness of Elwed’s statements, that remains a literary problem - the similarities we allow are based entirely on how generally we are willing to make comparisons. Think of the phone game - how much do the names, faces, and roles have to change before we say “no, these things are not similar enough”? Where’s the definition?

Did you ever hear of Kwatee , the Native American God.He formed man out of the dust , He went into the belly of the whale to rescue his brother(just like Jesus said the crucifixtion was the sign of Jonah).He underwent a strange transfiguration process on a mountain just like Jesus.
Jesus is just a re-hash of the legend of Kwatee.

Do you get my analogy?Anyone can pick and choose parts of mythology to demonstrate alleged parallels.Jesus was certainly not influenced by Kwatee.
Unless you can find some STRONG similarities between the myths you cannot demonstrate a parralel.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 03/28/2008 at 07:57 AM

elwedriddsche pic

Did you ever hear of Kwatee , the Native American God.He formed man out of the dust , He went into the belly of the whale to rescue his brother(just like Jesus said the crucifixtion was the sign of Jonah).He underwent a strange transfiguration process on a mountain just like Jesus.
Jesus is just a re-hash of the legend of Kwatee.

Your muddled argument rests on the assumption that if similarities between myths are found, it follows that one is derived from the other. This is obviously wrong, because instead of one evolving from the other, the two similar myths evolved independently. Nu?

Do you get my analogy?

And what a poor analogy it is.

Anyone can pick and choose parts of mythology to demonstrate alleged parallels.Jesus was certainly not influenced by Kwatee.

First, it’s permissible to pick and chose parts of mythologies to demonstrate similarities, in line with the expectation that there commonalities and differences between myths.

Second, see above. Something similar was invented twice, but nobody claims direct descendance.

Last time I checked, modern-day Israel and Egypt were located next to each other on the map. Whatever similarities there are between Egyptian and Christian myths, the geographic proximity doesn’t permit the categorical dismissal of claims that the inventors and marketers of Christianity were influenced by Egyptian myths that predate them.

Unless you can find some STRONG similarities between the myths you cannot demonstrate a parralel.

As pointed out before, it’s a matter of thresholding. What you want to say is that unless you find very close similarities, you cannot demonstrate a very close parallel.

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