Dumbasses pay to sit in mines filled with radon gas in hopes of improving their health.

Posted by Les on Thursday, July 08, 2004 at 10:56 AM. Read 5615 times. Tags: , , ,
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Tell some people that the government has determined that they shouldn’t stick a fork into their eye and they’ll do it anyway. Then they’ll claim it actually helps them to see better. And it cured their gout. And their jock itch. And whatever else ails them. The same thing applies to exposing themselves to known carcinogens such as radon gas. In fact, not only are some people seeking out sources of radon to expose themselves to, but other people are charging them good money for the privilege of doing so. Out in Montana there’s at least two “radon health mines” where for an hourly rate you can sit in an abandoned mine and breathe in the radon filled air:

The Montana public health agency “doesn’t encourage (the mines’) use,” said Dr. Todd Damrow of the Montana Department of Public Health and Human Service. “But people are free to use them.”

And they do, by the thousands every year. Many people make annual pilgrimages to the Merry Widow and the Earth Angel mines in Basin, and the Free Enterprise and Lone Tree mines in Boulder.

Owners of the mines dismiss the EPA warnings about radon as “government propaganda.”

“It’s not harmful at all,” said Patricia Lewis, owner of the Free Enterprise Mine.

The article doesn’t state what qualifications Patricia Lewis has for determining that radon gas isn’t harmful in spite of the mounds of studies that contradict her stance. Nor does the article elaborate on what reason Lewis feels the government has for spreading such propaganda about the dangers of radon exposure, but I’m sure her reasons are all based on valid scientific principles and exhaustive medical research, right? Well, she does have a nice list of links to a handful of dissenters on the dangers of radon at her website some of whom do have valid medical degrees and some of the organizations have impressive names (though some of the websites are now defunct), but compared to the amount of contradictory evidence the literal handful of counter-arguments doesn’t hold up well. It certainly doesn’t justify the laundry-list of ailments that they claim radon therapy might be helpful for:


  • Ankylosing Spondylitis (AS)

  • Arthritis (OA, RA, JRA etc.)

  • Asthma

  • Behcets

  • Bursitis

  • Cancer (Breast)

  • Carpal Tunnel

  • Chronic Pain

  • Circulation

  • Diabetes Type I & II

  • Eczema

  • Emphysema

  • Fibromyalgia (FMS)

  • Gout

  • Hayfever

  • High Blood Pressure

  • Inflammation

  • Lupus (SLE)

  • Migraine Headaches

  • Multiple Sclerosis (MS)

  • Osteo Arthritis (OA)

  • Post Polio Syndrome (PPS)

  • Prostate (BPH)

  • Psoriasis

  • Rheumatoid (RA)

  • Scleroderma

  • Sinus

  • Ulcerative Colitis


Much like the ever-popular Homeopathy or some practitioners of Chiropractic, it seems like there’s not much radon therapy isn’t effective for if you believe their website. The owner of the other mine is Dwayne Knutzen and he’s got the typical I-was-a-skeptic-at-first story that’s familiar to anyone who pays attention to these things.

“I was like everybody else,” he said. “Radon? That can’t be good for you.”

But the more he researched the health benefits of radon, he said, the more he was convinced of them.

“The only reason I bought the place,” said Knutzen, “is it’s so fascinating. You hear all these bad things. But you can’t ever find anybody who died from it. And there are all these benefits.”

It’s probably true that you’re unlikely to find many death certificates that specifically list radon as the cause of death, but then you don’t normally find death certificates that cite smoking as the cause of death either as in both cases it’s something that tends to affect you slowly over a period of time eventually resulting in lung cancer. In fact, if you’re a smoker the risk increases dramatically. 

It’s estimated that around 14,000 deaths a year are associated with radon exposure, though that could range from as low as 7,000 to as high as 30,000. Ironically, we know more about the dangers of radon than we do about almost any other human carcinogen thanks to extensive epidemiological studies of thousands of underground miners carried out over more than fifty years world-wide. The charge that this is all Governmental propaganda doesn’t hold water as these studies have been repeated throughout the world.

    In 1988, a panel of world experts convened by the World Health Organization’s International Agency for Research on Cancer unanimously agreed that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that radon causes cancer in humans and in laboratory animals (IARC, 1988). Scientific committees assembled by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS, 1988), the International Commission on Radiological Protection (ICRP, 1987), and the National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurement (NCRP, 1984) also have reviewed the available data and agreed that radon exposure causes human lung cancer.

    Recognizing that radon is a significant public health risk, scientific and professional organizations such as the American Medical Association, the American Lung Association, and the National Medical Association have developed programs to reduce the health risks of radon. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) reviewed the epidemiological data and recommended that the annual radon progeny exposure limit for the mining industry be lowered (NIOSH 1987).—A Physician’s Guide - Radon: The Health Threat with a Simple Solution

But don’t let that dissuade you, a couple of yahoos out in Montana say it’s perfectly safe and they’re willing to charge you $112 for 32 hours of exposure to prove it to you. Hey, they got tons of testimonials from other folks they’ve successfully charged as proof that it works!

A sign above the door reads “Fountain of Youth - Feel Young Again,” a reference to the mine’s radon-saturated spring water that flows from the depths of the mountain. Guests frequently brave the icy 40-degree temperature of the water with hopes of soaking away pain and swelling in joints and to improve circulation. They even splash it in their eyes to improve vision and, some say, cure cataracts. Others drink the water, hoping for relief of bladder and prostate problems, according to Knutzen.
...
“A lot of people take the mud off the wall and rub it on their skin for skin problems,” Knutzen said.
...
Similar inside to the Merry Widow, but with a more cramped, 600-foot tunnel and fewer amenities, the Earth Angel was purchased five years ago by Bill Remior. He charges $2 a day for “treatments” in his mine.

A disabled World War II veteran, Remior had visited all the area’s radon mines for 20-some years before buying the Earth Angel.

“I seen what good they did me,” he said. “I figured it was the Good Lord was doing it. I’ve got a weak heart and only half a lung. But I can go good yet. It’s helped me. I seen a lot of miracles come out of here. And I never seen anything wrong.”

Probably the most hilarious comment, though, comes from Knutzen:

“Radon is a colorless, odorless gas,” said Knutzen before leading a tour of his mine. “But when you come out, you register on a Geiger counter.”

He says this like it’s a good thing. Next thing you know he’ll be telling you it’s OK if you glow in the dark as it makes reading books when the power is out a lot easier. Part of the problem, of course, is that radon is a slow killer. If it worked faster then these idiots would kill themselves off in short order and wouldn’t be around to continue to spread their stupidity to other people. It’s like that myth about a frog in a pot of water brought slowly to a boil. So long as the damage is gradual and hard to see then these idiots will continue to expose themselves to the danger. Still, I suppose that’s Darwin’s theory of natural selection at work.

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Jim Muckerheide United States Posted on 08/08/2004 at 03:10 AM

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Another serendipitous article, from today’s Sunday Telegraph (UK).

Note that my ‘shill for drug makers’ comment was intended to be tongue in cheek, it is missing the ntended smiley. Sorry about that. The ‘dishonesty’ is just your claim to want/need “proof,” but you get it then make contrary statements. It seems intentional. Maybe not.

Regards, Jim
========================

Nuclear power is fine - radiation is good for you By Dick Taverne
(Filed: 08/08/2004)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/08/08/do0801
.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/08/08/ixhome.html

Oil prices are at their highest for almost 20 years amid ever-increasing concerns that the world faces an energy drought. At the same time, as a signatory to the Kyoto Treaty, our Government is giving financial incentives to those who want to cover the country with giant wind turbines.

Yet, why, with the notable exception of James Lovelock, the inventor of the Gaia hypothesis, do the world’s environmentalists reject nuclear power, which emits almost no greenhouse gases? Because they are frightened of accidents and of radiation emanating from nuclear power stations and nuclear waste. Their fears of radiation are not only widely shared, but they are nourished by official sources and have even become official policy.

The present policies for radiation safety are based on the “linear no-threshold assumption”, which is endorsed by the International Commission on Radiological Protection. This is the assumption that even the smallest amount of radiation is harmful and may cause cancer and genetic disorders, and that the risk of harm increases proportionately with the dose.

On this basis, we should aim to avoid any exposure at all. Accordingly, the standards for radiation protection set by the commission have become more exacting and the maximum exposure dose declared to be safe is continually lowered.

The standard measurement of radiation is set in terms of milliSieverts (mSv) per year. In the 1920s, the maximum dose regarded as safe was 700 mSv. By 1941, it was reduced to 70. By the 1990s, it became 20 for occupationally exposed people and 1 mSv for the general population. Some people believe that the maximum exposure dose should be lower still.

Unfortunately, far from safeguarding our health, current safety standards will almost certainly increase the incidence of cancer. The evidence shows that the effect of radiation on human health is not a linear one, but is a J-shaped curve. Exposure starts by being beneficial at low doses and only becomes harmful at higher doses. This effect is known as hormesis.

A low dose of ionising radiation seems to stimulate DNA repair and the immune system, so providing a measure of protection against cancer. The benefit of low doses of radiation in treating cancer have been known for some time and are confirmed by a mass of evidence, particularly from Japan where it has been studied in detail as a result of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Many other examples of the hormesis effect are well known. A bit of sunshine does you good; too much may cause skin cancer. Small doses of aspirin have many beneficial effects; too much will kill you. It also appears to apply to arsenic, cadmium, dioxins and residues of synthetic pesticides, but that is another story.

Epidemiological evidence confirms the hormesis effect of radiation. The prediction that there would be terrible after-effects from the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki on the survivors and their children was proved wrong. Japanese studies of the life expectancy of survivors who suffered relatively low amounts of radiation show that their life expectancy turned out to be higher than those of the control group and no unusual genetic defects have been found in their children.

Again, a follow-up study of Japanese fishermen who were contaminated with plutonium after the nuclear tests at Bikini found 25 years later that none of them had died from cancer.

After the Chernobyl disaster it was also predicted that the incidence of cancer among those affected by fallout would greatly increase and there would be huge genetic damage to future generations. It was about as bad an accident to a nuclear power station (a badly constructed one) as is likely to happen. Its psychological effect was huge and changed people’s perception of the risk of nuclear energy all over the world.

Indeed, it is constantly cited as an example of the unparalleled threat to health from nuclear disasters. Tragically, it led to 31 deaths, mainly among rescue workers who were exposed to very high doses of radiation. Yet in the areas around Chernobyl the extra radiation to which people were exposed in the nine years following the accident was slight - an increase of about 0.8-1.4 mSv.

In May 2001, in the Ukrainian town of Pripyat, which is now a ghost town after its complete evacuation, the average amount of persistent radiation found was 0.9 mSv a year, five times lower than the level in New York’s Grand Central Station. In parts of southwest France the levels of natural radiation are as high as 870 mSv a year.

There is strong evidence that people exposed to low doses of radiation - amounts 100 times more than the recommended range - actually benefit. The incidence of thyroid cancers among children under 15 exposed to fallout from Chernobyl was far lower than the normal incidence of thyroid cancer among Finnish children.

The death rate from leukemia of nuclear industry workers in Canada is 68 per cent lower than average. Workers in nuclear shipyards and other nuclear establishments in the US and many other countries have substantially lower death rates from all cancers and are much less likely to die from leukemia.

This might be explained by the fact that their health is regularly checked and that only healthy workers are employed. But it corresponds with a mass of other evidence that people who live in areas of unusually high natural radiation, in Japan, China, India and the US, are less likely to die from cancer than a control group.

These facts destroy what are perhaps the strongest objections to nuclear power. They show that the regulations seeking to enforce present, let alone proposed, minimum standards of safety not only cost billions of pounds and have undermined the prospects of our development of nuclear power, but do more harm than good.

It is time that we looked more closely at the phenomenon of hormesis and at the successful Japanese experience of using low-dose radiation to treat cancer. When the evidence is so clear, we should not allow it to be brushed aside by conventional wisdom and ignorance.

Adapted from an article in this month’s Prospect magazine. Lord Taverne’s book, The March of Unreason, is published in November by OUP

Jim Muckerheide United States Posted on 08/08/2004 at 03:34 AM

Jim Muckerheide pic

That assumes there is a there there.

There is always a there, just the facts (not my opinion, just the substantial evidence in the science literature). You’ll never get there if you have to believe me, or even understand me, first.

I hold no particular views on the therapeutic benefits of LDR, but the way Jim purports himself doesn?ft inspire confidence.


Not sure what “purports himself” means, but it’s funny that people who started this with “dumbasses” and idiots and charlatans and “sodomize them with shotguns” etc. etc. etc., are suddenly supersensititive to being shown up with factual evidence without due deference and temperate language and adequate “proof” of complex molecular biology, so they blame the messenger in order to justify their own failure to acknowledge the evidence.

I have no vested interest. I work for the govt. I’m just here to help grin

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 08/08/2004 at 09:55 AM

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Not sure what “purports himself� means, but it’s funny that people who started this with “dumbasses� and idiots and charlatans and “sodomize them with shotguns� etc. etc. etc., are suddenly supersensititive to being shown up with factual evidence without due deference and temperate language and adequate “proof� of complex molecular biology, so they blame the messenger in order to justify their own failure to acknowledge the evidence.

I have no vested interest. I work for the govt. I’m just here to help

And I’ll repeat that while I still don’t hold an opinion on the subject matter, your “help” was counter-productive.

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

deadscot United States Posted on 08/08/2004 at 01:05 PM

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Jim - This most recent article you listed has to be one of the most counter-productive ones so far to justify your position.

Unfortunately, far from safeguarding our health, current safety standards will almost certainly increase the incidence of cancer. The evidence shows that the effect of radiation on human health is not a linear one, but is a J-shaped curve.

So, mine drilling equipment and nuclear power plants are a medical benefit?  (I’d put a smiley here but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.)

One thing this Radon thread has done is show me that you can get a doctor to say just about anything for a bleeding heart story and a buck...Or just a buck.  True, some doctors are probably in the government’s hip pocket but after days and days of researching this topic I have come to this conclusion.

Approximately 90% of health professionals agree that Radon, even in low doses, is harmful to the human body.  Some 75% tend to believe that the threat of low dose Radon exposure has been overstated but harmful nonetheless. 

Of the remaining 10% of health professionals.  About 50% of those believe that there may be beneficial qualities to low dosage Radon exposure.  The other 50% are unwilling or unable to stipulate a harm or benefit at low levels.  Of that entire 10% I was able to locate one single doctor’s recommendation for Radon therapy. (Funny thing here, I found several sites that listed Radon treatment, didn’t directly recommend it, but did recommend prayer.)

Is this were an episode of MythBusters We’d be seeing the Free Enterprise Radon Health Mine as BUSTED.

captcha = ‘why’ Why do people still go there?  Because it makes them ‘feel’ better.  So does ice cream.

Christoph Austria Posted on 08/08/2004 at 03:11 PM

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Les, I notice you realized the potential (!!!) risk of radon gas in low doses is minimal. Very good.

No problem at all. We can live with the controversial discussion at this point (despite the fact there is a lot of other evidence about positive facts of LDR; Jim cited a lot of it). All of our patients know about it (so our doctors are serious) and the feel the pain relief and the decline in drug consumption. So, the theoretical risk (if there is one) is so low that nobody is able to measure it. To turn it in another way: it´s more dangerous to go by car and this risk can be measured. But regarding this point we have obviously the same opinion that it shall be minimal (if there is a risk).

About the scientific evidence for the effectiveness:

Jim, sent information about Prof. Falkenbach´s methaanalysis. Basis for this work are three double blind studies (!!!!!!!!) (and two others which cannot be done double blind) for radon treatments. What evidence are you looking for?

Evidence Based Medicine does not include only double blind studies. It also includes other scientific evidence and at - lowest level - experience of a greater number of doctors.

There is a lot of scientific evidence. Research about Gasteiner Heilstollen e.g. was done (before starting the treatment in 1952) for about 100.000 hours by doctors of the University of Innsbruck. In the final paper (recommending to the Austrian Government to declare it as a “natural healing ressource") the authors concluded that “the Gasteiner Heilstollen is a very strong healing ressource for especially rheumatic diseases, even stronger than all modern (in 1952) treatments ...”

As you might know we are still missing really good working drugs for special chronic (inflammatory) rheumatic diseases (or drugs with a mortality risk of 1/500 per year of use).

Patients who come again do feel a pain reduction and then can reduce their drug consumption. Theese are thousands of people.

Do you think 50% of the Austrian Association of Ancylosing Spondylitis Patients (and a great part of the German too) are patients of ours, if they for themselves don´t have any “evidence” and just go for a placebo?

You might call tham all dumbasses. I guess you aren´t a patient having pain the whole time and knowing what a 100%pain reduction for 9 months says to you ....

Otherwise you would be able to recognise that human beings are built to complicated to treat everything with “double-blind-controlled-evidence-based-treatmens” (medicine just hasn´t got it). As I told you a great part of actually used medicine hasn´t got double-blind evidence and doctors do use it, because they have to use: otherwise they wouldn´t have treatments for a lot of illnesses.

So, you (!) would be a very bad doctor! I prefer to work with those who are able to listen to a patient, that´s still the only method to really help them (besides all evidence they have to take into account).

So take your sentence:

“Now, whether it “significantlyâ€? influences free oxygen radical transformations or does any of the other stuff they claim is true is still yet to be proven to any great degree though there are studies that “suggestâ€? there may be something behind it.”

or

“I don’t ignore that data, most of what you’ve presented concludes that there is the suggestion of some benefit. That’s hardly conclusive though it does encourage more investigation, which I have nothing against.”

and combine it with experiences of thousands of doctors and patients and you understand, why they are no dumbasses to pay for it.

To contribute a little bit to the discussion about the mechanisms I would like to give you a sentence out of a study which shall be published soon (no hard evidence; it might be the right direction):

“Conclusion: These results demonstrate a significant increase in circulating TGF-ß1 in patients with AS after speleotherapy in Badgastein. Due to its anti-inflammatory function, TGF-ß1 may enhance the healing processes leading to reduction of joint pain and improved mobility.” (AS = Ancylosing Spondylitis

Other studies show that alpha particals improve production of TGF-Beta in cell cultures.

So maybe we just try to do 1 + 1 = ...

I know there is still space for a controversial discussion, but people only accepting methods in medicine which are based on hardest Evidence Based Medicine, don´t know how to treat a patient.

For the moment I would be happy to invite you to Austria. Just go there and take a look and talk to the people. We would be happy to welcome you.

Regards

Christoph

ingolfson Germany Posted on 08/08/2004 at 06:12 PM

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Wow. *Now* I know why Les was sometimes a bit scarce with new posts in the last months. He was digging himself deeper into this thread wink

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 08/08/2004 at 09:18 PM

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Pain has real causes and is real to someone feeling it. It can be blocked through distraction. There is an article in the August issue of Scientific American on Virtual-Reality Therapy.

I saw that article: very cool and personally interesting to me.  I have a chronic pain disorder and can attest to the reality of pain that has no apparent cause.  The fact that pain does respond to cognitive therapy shows that it is subjective.  I did not mean to imply such pain is not real!  My own experience tells me otherwise.

As for pain that does have an obvious physical cause, I once saw a film of a Chinese woman having her gallbladder removed using only acupuncture for anaesthesia - apparently she really believed it would block pain.  Or it really did, in some way we just don’t understand.  She seemed to be in no discomfort at all, chatting with the surgeon.  It was mind blowing.

There is a lot of scientific evidence. Research about Gasteiner Heilstollen e.g. was done (before starting the treatment in 1952) for about 100.000 hours by doctors of the University of Innsbruck.

I saw a study last week which showed that arthroscopic knee surgery may be associated with a placebo effect.  But thousands of surgeons do those operations every year, and would strongly defend the efficacy of their practice. 

Of course this is one study that needs to be confirmed, and it only relates to one chronic ailment (knee osteoarthritis) but it sure makes you wonder how many accepted treatments amount to a cognitive therapy (a class of therapies which includes but is not limited to the placebo effect).

This has been a really interesting thread!

VernR United States Posted on 08/09/2004 at 01:55 PM

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Jim Even if you just look at the antioxidant effect, how many pounds of blueberries would you need to eat to have an equivalent effect?

Going beyond blueberries--this is not quite (fully) on the subject under discussion, but isn’t proper nutrition essential to the operation of the immune system? Wouldn’t it be an essential component of treatments where you are trying to enhance its operation?

DOF I have a chronic pain disorder and can attest to the reality of pain that has no apparent cause.  The fact that pain does respond to cognitive therapy shows that it is subjective.

Sure. I was really just looking for an opportunity to make a post about the article. I had surgery in June 2002, and a few days before I was scheduled to go in, an alternative medicine Doc (non MD) introduced me to guided imagery. Simply put, you listen to a recording that invites you to relax (deeply) and then asks you to imagine a positive output for your treatment. There are specific to pre-surgery, surgery and post surgery to name just three.

The day before I was due to check in, my anxiety started climbing. The pre-surgery track helped me to settle. Pain may not have been involved, but I think this a good example of a subjective process.

Although the IV drip was my main battery in controlling pain, the post-surgery track was useful adjunct. There is one track that invites one to imagine an endorphin drip, with the objective finding, perhaps, several hours of pain relief. Although, I listened to that track out of curiosity, I (fortunately) I didn’t need that one.  So, I can’t say whether I found it effective or not.

(made)

Christoph Austria Posted on 08/09/2004 at 03:34 PM

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P.S.: let me finally post one German saying (it is a basic principle of medicine). I´ll put it in German and will try to translate it:

“Wer heilt, hat recht.”

("Who heals is right")

Christoph

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 08/09/2004 at 07:02 PM

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P.S.: let me finally post one German saying (it is a basic principle of medicine). I´ll put it in German and will try to translate it: “Wer heilt, hat recht.� ("Who heals is right")

Nice parting shot, Christoph, but it’s more like a basic principle of anecdote.  The most basic principle of medicine is “Do no harm” and illusory or possibly toxic therapies can do a lot of harm (though I think there’s lots worse things than sitting in a mine for a few hours.)

The placebo effect is useful as a pointer to the role of the mind as a powerful ally in healing.  But relying on the effect seems to close avenues of study that will find the more direct path to whatever is happening from it. 

A better question is: what is it about belief that is so medically useful?  How exactly does that work? It’s a question worth a lot more study than many dubious things that people believe in. We should also be trying to find the precise neural mechanism of cognitive pain therapies, which show both sensible rationale and promise for great long-term usefulness.

Maybe someday pain relief will only occasionally require drugs.

deadscot United States Posted on 08/09/2004 at 07:20 PM

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The one that heals is right?  Seems odd for German saying.  I would have expected something more along the lines of “Macht bildet nach rechts."(pardon my German) or “Might makes right!” Just based on the track record of such famous doctors as Dr. Heinrich Berning, Dr. Viktor Brack, Dr. Carl Clauberg, Dr. Auther Dietzsch, Dr. Arnold Dohmen, Dr. Finke, Dr. Erwin Gohrbandt and hundreds of others.  I think we would all agree they were not acting in anyone’s best interest but their own.

Would you, as a medical practitioner, advise one of your patients to attend a ‘laying of hands’ service that has been attested to heal the same ailments that the Radon mines have?  There are literally thousands of testimonials available as to their effectiveness and no published papers that I can find stating any harmful side-effects.  Does that make Rev. ‘Billy Bob Nelson’ right also?

Gerald Looney, MD United States Posted on 08/09/2004 at 11:50 PM

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I have been amazed at the number of references to acupuncture which have arisen in this debate.  Just for the record, I founded the first academic Acupuncture Study Group in 1972 soon after joining the medical faculty at the USC School of Medicine, and quickly realized that it was a neurological phenomenon, primarily mediated thru the Autonomic Nervous System and its cutaneovisceral and viscercutaneous reflexes, neurologic activities which are still largely unknown to both Occidental and Oriental physicians.  Furthermore, since acupuncture had documented efficacy in infants and in animals, it did not appear to have much dependence on suggestability or placebo effect.  I can send a reference and report from JAMA to any interested parties.  Unfortunately, I still have not achieved my goal of establishing an Acupuncture Clinic in Needles, CA, but I did unearth the fact that acupuncture was first written up in 1826 in the Southern Medical Journal by Wm. Markley Lee, followed by a report in 1836 by Bakke in the Boston Medical & Surgical Journal (forerunner of the New England Journal of Medicine) and in 1896 was touted in JAMA by a Professor of Surgery and soon thereafter endorsed by the Father of American Medicine, Sir William Osler.  It does not require an empty head to maintain an open mind.  Gerald Looney, MD

Christoph Austria Posted on 08/10/2004 at 06:21 AM

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decrepitoldfool and deadscot,

of course we shall study the effects (and there are a lot of studies as I told you already, beside the listed double blind studies nobody until now has commented on a lot of older studies; so it´s not true to say, there is no evidence) and the mechanisms (and there are indicators and good therories how it is working), but not knowing everything about a treatment is not a reason to stop treating people. Doing it would mean to erase more then 50% of practised medicine.

I am sure your mentioned ‘laying of hands’ service has not got 100.000 hours of investigation by universities etc. The difference between 1950 (at this time there was no doubt the treatment is working; 1000 doctors per year came to see how it is working) and today is only a difference in scientific standards. But interpreting Evidence Based Medicine in a way that only double blind studies are accepted evidence is definitely wrong. Some people in this thread do it this way.

How can you decide as a practioner about “Do no harm�, if you don´t even know if Low Dose Radiation is slightly negative or positive (Hormesis). If you can see on one side a tremendous pain relief (and a lot of practioners treating our patients see this kind of development) and have a minimal hypothetical risk on the other side, how would you decide?

As I argued already doing studies is alright, but mankind will probably never completely understand the very complex mechanisms of a human body. So why - in a case I can see the effectiveness, but not understand - just listen to the patient?

Medicine has to use both: guidelines based on hard scientific evidence, but doctors who are able to listen to their patient and learn while treating him (especially if the patient is resitent to base line therapies).

Christoph

Les United States Posted on 08/10/2004 at 06:50 AM

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And yet, Gerald, acupuncture remains a borderland science by most standards. I wonder why that is? Oh yeah, those darn drug companies and their secret agreement with the Government to suppress anything that isn’t drug related therapy! My bad, I forgot. Though I give you kudos for quickly figuring out exactly how acupuncture works when so many others who have studied it haven’t been able to conclusively determine if it even does anything. Bravo to you!

Christoph, you should know as well as anyone that the placebo effect is not only recognized by Medical Doctors, but one of the tools of the trade. If you tell a Doctor that you’ve been rolling around naked in Jell-o for four hours a day to treat your arthritis he’s going to ask you if it helps and if you say yes then he’ll tell you to keep doing it. Why? Because that means your problem is probably psychosomatic and you’ve already figured out your placebo for it and it isn’t a particularly dangerous “treatment.” It doesn’t mean he’s going to tell all his arthritis sufferers to roll around naked in Jell-o, though.

As you can probably tell by now, I don’t have to worry too much about my regular readers. The folks around here tend to think for themselves and when they are curious they will go out and dig up the data on their own and it looks like they’re finding the same conclusions I have on the topic, if deadscot is any indicator. They don’t just take my word for it and I wouldn’t have it any other way because I fully recognize I could be wrong. By the same token, they’re not likely to simply take your word for it either and I bet that must be really frustrating for you guys. This isn’t a group that’ll just roll over because you’ve got a couple of studies that “suggest” a benefit which you then proclaim to be conclusive proof and you’ll probably find your efforts here to be largely wasted, but by all means continue to post if you wish.

As Elwed has pointed out, you guys are doing more harm to your cause than good in terms of convincing anyone around here. In part because your tendency to latch onto the smallest bit of supporting evidence makes you sound like the Creationists who drop in from time to time and do the same thing to support their arguments. No scrap is too small if it supports your standpoint, but the mounds of contrary studies amount to nothing as far as you’re concerned. This is what is known as a “confirmation bias,” but then you probably already knew that.

Ado South Africa Posted on 08/10/2004 at 09:18 AM

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I am writing from the ONLY country in the world that has TOTALLY dismantled it’s nuclear arsenal.  I am a medical physicists who have devoted my live to the study on radiation on the human body and have a PhD to show for it.

Do I really know if low doses of radiation is good or bad for you, NO!

What I do know is that there are plenty of evidence that contradicts the LNT theory and I am convinced that the radiation phobia and over regulation is costing the world a lot.

Cameron has shown an inverse relationship between lung cancer and radon levels in houses in the US.  The US dockworker study shows similar trends and recently a study conducted in Taiwan has shown that people living in apartments made from radio active steel, accidentally included during the construction, had statistically significant LOWER levels of ALL malignancies.  Very powerful arguments.

So does it help to sit in a radon mine?  Will I go there? 

If the food and company is good, yes.

To summarise, I believe that as with most other agents harm at high doses does not nessessarily translates in harm at low doses and often the reverse is true.  However malignancies is a multi modal process and certain individuals (or for that matter organs) may well be sensitive to radiation and thus will have a lower “tollerance” this may be especially true for children. Fortunately I do not suffer from any of these debilitating conditions mentioned but would probably try any cure when in such a situation and if it helps (placebo or not) I will go back!

People using expletives to bring across their points leave me cold.

Christoph Austria Posted on 08/10/2004 at 11:07 AM

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Les, sorry, you don´t get what I mean. Probably my English is to bad to explain to you the difference between your (and you are not alone) purely scientific approach (which doesn´t solve 100% of the problem) and practised medicine.

That´s the nature of endless discussions ...

Christoph

nowiser United States Posted on 08/10/2004 at 03:04 PM

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Cameron has shown an inverse relationship between lung cancer and radon levels in houses in the US

1.  I don’t think it was Cameron.  I believe it was Cohen.
2.  Cohen’s study was an ecologic study, which demonstrates correlations that --may-- indicate causal relationships.  Ecologic studies are not conclusive by any stretch of the imagination.  Cohen has admitted this himself, but --insists-- that his own ecologic study is the exception to the rule.  Needless to say, not everyone agrees with Cohen’s purportedly unbiased assessment of his own work.  (Hey, I worked in purportedly!  Now if I could only work in pejorative, denigrate and invective, I’d sound -hella- smart!)
3.  Cohen’s ties to the tobacco lobby tend to make me a little bit suspicious.  Of course the truth, even when it comes from the mouth of a partisan, or an asshole, is --still-- the truth.  So I don’t reject Cohen’s study simply because I don’t like his affiliations, but it --does-- make me wonder.  After all, the tobacco industry had all sorts of science backing up their claims that smoking was not a significant health risk.

just because you’re paranoid. . .

It seems to me that the Japanese doctor’s studies are probably more relevant, if the goal is to establish a -causal- link between radon exposure and biochemical changes.

In the meantime, if I feel the need for more radiation I’ll sit closer to my television.

Christoph Austria Posted on 08/10/2004 at 04:08 PM

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“It wasn’t until Patricia Lewis’ second reply that anyone provided anything in the way of a supporting reference specifically with regards to potential benefit from radon exposure and I found the study she cites to be interesting reading.”

Les, except your comment “be interesting reading” I do not find any further conclusion about two double blind studies which were cited by Jim and Patricia? Which kind of evidence would you like to have?

Christoph

Jill United States Posted on 10/08/2005 at 03:35 AM

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I’m in.  I live in the US and me and my husband are going to MT next May.  I have FMS. I will sit in the caves but I will not allow him to.  He has asthma and other ailments. I am wondering how you could base your facts without first trying.  I’m sure you don’t want to try? No?  Do you have have FMS?  I suppose not!  Are you on about 6 different meds that don’t work?  Don’t sleep at night?  Restless legs? A twitching eye?  Constant pain?  An injury that just won’t go away? Depression?  You think you have a hold of it?  I don’t think so.  You’re speaking out of your ass.  Sorry.  You’re writing this article as though you speak for us all.  I am willing to take the chance.  I am scared, but, brave at the same time as this is such as challenge in my life.  Much greater than the FMS, oddly enough.  I challenge you to to take the journey with me.  I’m only 39.  Believe me, FMS has taken over a greater portion of my life; this journey will be worth it’s weight in gold....to me.

Les United States Posted on 10/08/2005 at 12:20 PM

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I am wondering how you could base your facts without first trying.

Same way I don’t have to shoot myself in the head with a gun before knowing it would probably be a bad idea to do so. Sure, I might survive and it’s even possible it could clear up my sinus problems, but the risks outweigh the benefits. It’s called common sense, though it seems not to be so common anymore.

Do you have have FMS?  I suppose not!  Are you on about 6 different meds that don’t work?  Don’t sleep at night?  Restless legs? A twitching eye?  Constant pain?  An injury that just won’t go away? Depression?  You think you have a hold of it?  I don’t think so.

I have my fair share of ailments, but certainly nothing that would justify sitting around in a radioactive mine soaking up toxic gasses. Somehow that just seems counter-productive.

You’re speaking out of your ass.  Sorry.  You’re writing this article as though you speak for us all. I am willing to take the chance.

No ma’am, I’m only speaking for the intelligent folks. You dumbasses are free to do as you please.

I am scared, but, brave at the same time as this is such as challenge in my life.  Much greater than the FMS, oddly enough.  I challenge you to to take the journey with me.  I’m only 39.  Believe me, FMS has taken over a greater portion of my life; this journey will be worth it’s weight in gold....to me.

Fear drives many people to do foolish things that they think are brave, but are really just bad judgment run amok. Trading one problem in for another just as bad problem is a pointless exercise, but then again, as I said before, you have the right to do idiotic things if you so wish to. Far be it for me to stand in the way of someone making money off your stupidity.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 10/08/2005 at 06:29 PM

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Hey Jill - Les doesn’t have FMS but I do and am familiar with the symptoms you mention except the twitching eye.  I am also all too familiar with doctors who do not have a clue.  Please don’t let your pain and fatigue (and your frustration with your doctors) make you vulnerable to quacks.

Here is a strategy that has brought great improvement to my life.  It has been far more effective than any medicine so far. 

The page I just linked also has some very good associated links at the bottom - scroll down.

Holistic Chap Belgium Posted on 12/04/2005 at 01:25 PM

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May I add some views on this long lasting interesting subject :

1. Recent English studies show NO health incidences (cancers)on children living for years in high levels of radon regions.

2. I suspect TOO MANY epidemiologic studies including lung cancer passive-smokers living with
smokers and arguing : “look, it’s from radon !”

3. I have been performing, as a professional health & safety consultant, a lot of radon detection in houses with weekly average radon levels up as high as 600-800 Bq/M3. Most clients living in the same house for several decades.
The only lung cancers case met there were from addicted smokers.

4. Because my clients were definitively not sick from radon, less than 1,5 % of the proposed radon remediation measures were implemented.

5. I’ve met many happy pensioners spending good
time at Gasteiner Heilstollen (what a name). Seeing them “before and after”,it’s really, really
hard to believe it’s just placebo !

6. I’ve heard (if this is true, that’s amazing)that Ukrainian people still living within the radioactive zone of Chernobyl are actually in some
better health conditions than the ones having been displaced and now starving miserabily in sinister collective buildings far away the “zone”.

So, should we live in fear of Radon, or should we invest in a radon mine right now ? smirk

Hollistic Chap

Les United States Posted on 12/04/2005 at 01:37 PM

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You had me considering the possibilities of your claims until you got to number 6. With that one you pretty much destroyed whatever credibility you might have had. Next you’ll be telling me the healthiest place to live is the reactor chamber of a nuclear plant.

Holistic Chap Belgium Posted on 12/04/2005 at 02:36 PM

Holistic Chap pic

Thank you for your friendly welcome, les.
I am not going to play irony like you.
I ask a question (Am I allowed to ask questions ?)
about something I heard when I recently visited Kiev in Ukraine.
I am waiting for rational comments like “true, for the following reasons...” OR “not true, for the following reasons...”.
Carl SAGAN was saying :it’s not because something is not scientifically proven, that it’s not existing”. Could be : “it’s not because it’s sound stupid that it is untrue”.
So : Back to Number 6 - I am now waiting for confirmation or contradiction. I suppose this is
the purpose of your very rich and interesting forum.  hmmm Hollistic Chap

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 12/04/2005 at 03:30 PM

elwedriddsche pic

Fine. If have no stake in this debate, so how about…

1. Recent English studies show NO health incidences (cancers)on children living for years in high levels of radon regions.

Citations, please. “Recents studies show” carries as much weight as “as everybody knows...”

2. I suspect TOO MANY epidemiologic studies including lung cancer passive-smokers living with
smokers and arguing : “look, it’s from radon !�

It’s a valid objection, but you’d have research if this is an issue on a case by case basis, i.e. for each and every study.

3. I have been performing, as a professional health & safety consultant, a lot of radon detection in houses with weekly average radon levels up as high as 600-800 Bq/M3. Most clients living in the same house for several decades.
The only lung cancers case met there were from addicted smokers.

Anecdotal evidence.

At issue here is the type of radiation emitted by the unstable radon isotopes that occur in nature, the details of how they radiate human tissue (why should they cause lung cancer only?), and the actual exposure.

4. Because my clients were definitively not sick from radon, less than 1,5 % of the proposed radon remediation measures were implemented.

Anecdotal evidence. And a question concerning the methodology: If there are so few apparent health issues, why any remedial measures at all?

5. I’ve met many happy pensioners spending good
time at Gasteiner Heilstollen (what a name). Seeing them “before and after�,it’s really, really
hard to believe it’s just placebo !

Anecdotal evidence and the argument from incredulity.

6. I’ve heard (if this is true, that’s amazing)that Ukrainian people still living within the radioactive zone of Chernobyl are actually in some
better health conditions than the ones having been displaced and now starving miserabily in sinister collective buildings far away the “zone�.

And there you lose me, too. This is a pretty farfetched claim, once one thinks about it.

Have a look at http://www.kiddofspeed.com/ - a photoblog of a motorcycle trip across the irradiated zones. Read carefully…

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

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