Dumbasses pay to sit in mines filled with radon gas in hopes of improving their health.

Posted by Les on Thursday, July 08, 2004 at 10:56 AM. Read 5343 times. Tags: , , ,
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Tell some people that the government has determined that they shouldn’t stick a fork into their eye and they’ll do it anyway. Then they’ll claim it actually helps them to see better. And it cured their gout. And their jock itch. And whatever else ails them. The same thing applies to exposing themselves to known carcinogens such as radon gas. In fact, not only are some people seeking out sources of radon to expose themselves to, but other people are charging them good money for the privilege of doing so. Out in Montana there’s at least two “radon health mines” where for an hourly rate you can sit in an abandoned mine and breathe in the radon filled air:

The Montana public health agency “doesn’t encourage (the mines’) use,” said Dr. Todd Damrow of the Montana Department of Public Health and Human Service. “But people are free to use them.”

And they do, by the thousands every year. Many people make annual pilgrimages to the Merry Widow and the Earth Angel mines in Basin, and the Free Enterprise and Lone Tree mines in Boulder.

Owners of the mines dismiss the EPA warnings about radon as “government propaganda.”

“It’s not harmful at all,” said Patricia Lewis, owner of the Free Enterprise Mine.

The article doesn’t state what qualifications Patricia Lewis has for determining that radon gas isn’t harmful in spite of the mounds of studies that contradict her stance. Nor does the article elaborate on what reason Lewis feels the government has for spreading such propaganda about the dangers of radon exposure, but I’m sure her reasons are all based on valid scientific principles and exhaustive medical research, right? Well, she does have a nice list of links to a handful of dissenters on the dangers of radon at her website some of whom do have valid medical degrees and some of the organizations have impressive names (though some of the websites are now defunct), but compared to the amount of contradictory evidence the literal handful of counter-arguments doesn’t hold up well. It certainly doesn’t justify the laundry-list of ailments that they claim radon therapy might be helpful for:


  • Ankylosing Spondylitis (AS)

  • Arthritis (OA, RA, JRA etc.)

  • Asthma

  • Behcets

  • Bursitis

  • Cancer (Breast)

  • Carpal Tunnel

  • Chronic Pain

  • Circulation

  • Diabetes Type I & II

  • Eczema

  • Emphysema

  • Fibromyalgia (FMS)

  • Gout

  • Hayfever

  • High Blood Pressure

  • Inflammation

  • Lupus (SLE)

  • Migraine Headaches

  • Multiple Sclerosis (MS)

  • Osteo Arthritis (OA)

  • Post Polio Syndrome (PPS)

  • Prostate (BPH)

  • Psoriasis

  • Rheumatoid (RA)

  • Scleroderma

  • Sinus

  • Ulcerative Colitis


Much like the ever-popular Homeopathy or some practitioners of Chiropractic, it seems like there’s not much radon therapy isn’t effective for if you believe their website. The owner of the other mine is Dwayne Knutzen and he’s got the typical I-was-a-skeptic-at-first story that’s familiar to anyone who pays attention to these things.

“I was like everybody else,” he said. “Radon? That can’t be good for you.”

But the more he researched the health benefits of radon, he said, the more he was convinced of them.

“The only reason I bought the place,” said Knutzen, “is it’s so fascinating. You hear all these bad things. But you can’t ever find anybody who died from it. And there are all these benefits.”

It’s probably true that you’re unlikely to find many death certificates that specifically list radon as the cause of death, but then you don’t normally find death certificates that cite smoking as the cause of death either as in both cases it’s something that tends to affect you slowly over a period of time eventually resulting in lung cancer. In fact, if you’re a smoker the risk increases dramatically. 

It’s estimated that around 14,000 deaths a year are associated with radon exposure, though that could range from as low as 7,000 to as high as 30,000. Ironically, we know more about the dangers of radon than we do about almost any other human carcinogen thanks to extensive epidemiological studies of thousands of underground miners carried out over more than fifty years world-wide. The charge that this is all Governmental propaganda doesn’t hold water as these studies have been repeated throughout the world.

    In 1988, a panel of world experts convened by the World Health Organization’s International Agency for Research on Cancer unanimously agreed that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that radon causes cancer in humans and in laboratory animals (IARC, 1988). Scientific committees assembled by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS, 1988), the International Commission on Radiological Protection (ICRP, 1987), and the National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurement (NCRP, 1984) also have reviewed the available data and agreed that radon exposure causes human lung cancer.

    Recognizing that radon is a significant public health risk, scientific and professional organizations such as the American Medical Association, the American Lung Association, and the National Medical Association have developed programs to reduce the health risks of radon. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) reviewed the epidemiological data and recommended that the annual radon progeny exposure limit for the mining industry be lowered (NIOSH 1987).—A Physician’s Guide - Radon: The Health Threat with a Simple Solution

But don’t let that dissuade you, a couple of yahoos out in Montana say it’s perfectly safe and they’re willing to charge you $112 for 32 hours of exposure to prove it to you. Hey, they got tons of testimonials from other folks they’ve successfully charged as proof that it works!

A sign above the door reads “Fountain of Youth - Feel Young Again,” a reference to the mine’s radon-saturated spring water that flows from the depths of the mountain. Guests frequently brave the icy 40-degree temperature of the water with hopes of soaking away pain and swelling in joints and to improve circulation. They even splash it in their eyes to improve vision and, some say, cure cataracts. Others drink the water, hoping for relief of bladder and prostate problems, according to Knutzen.
...
“A lot of people take the mud off the wall and rub it on their skin for skin problems,” Knutzen said.
...
Similar inside to the Merry Widow, but with a more cramped, 600-foot tunnel and fewer amenities, the Earth Angel was purchased five years ago by Bill Remior. He charges $2 a day for “treatments” in his mine.

A disabled World War II veteran, Remior had visited all the area’s radon mines for 20-some years before buying the Earth Angel.

“I seen what good they did me,” he said. “I figured it was the Good Lord was doing it. I’ve got a weak heart and only half a lung. But I can go good yet. It’s helped me. I seen a lot of miracles come out of here. And I never seen anything wrong.”

Probably the most hilarious comment, though, comes from Knutzen:

“Radon is a colorless, odorless gas,” said Knutzen before leading a tour of his mine. “But when you come out, you register on a Geiger counter.”

He says this like it’s a good thing. Next thing you know he’ll be telling you it’s OK if you glow in the dark as it makes reading books when the power is out a lot easier. Part of the problem, of course, is that radon is a slow killer. If it worked faster then these idiots would kill themselves off in short order and wouldn’t be around to continue to spread their stupidity to other people. It’s like that myth about a frog in a pot of water brought slowly to a boil. So long as the damage is gradual and hard to see then these idiots will continue to expose themselves to the danger. Still, I suppose that’s Darwin’s theory of natural selection at work.

Comments:

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Barbara Hamrick United States Posted on 08/05/2004 at 01:17 AM

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deadscot writes:  “Yes, they were exposed to high dosages so the NCI went back and did controlled studies using low doses and still realized elevated levels of tumors compared to the control group.”

That’s not actually the case, I don’t believe.  NCI published a meta-analysis in 1997 by Lubin and Boice, but did not perform an independent controlled study.

The meta-analysis took data from eight case-control studies that collectively (without the data integrated) were inconclusive.  Meta-analyses such as this one have a great deal of uncertainty associated with them, due to the variation in control groups, data collection techniques, etc.  This meta-analysis found that the integrated results of the eight studies correlated reasonably well with predictions of the Linear No-Threshold Theory; however, the results were not sufficiently convincing to be independently utilized as a basis for radon risk assessment in the 1998 National Academy of Sciences BEIR VI report on radon:(http://books.nap.edu/books/0309056454/html/R1.html), although the BEIR VI committee did review the 1997 Lubin/Boice paper.

The BEIR VI committee still used high dose/high dose-rate miner data to extrapolate risks in the low dose/low dose-rate region.

As noted in the report:  “Since a valid risk estimate could not be derived only from the results of studies in homes, the BEIR VI committee chose to use the lung-cancer information from studies of miners, who are more heavily exposed to radon, to estimate the risks posed by radon exposures in homes.” And, “In converting radon risks from mines to homes, the committee was faced with several problems. First, most miners received radon exposures that were, on the average, many times larger than those of people in most homes; people in a few homes actually receive radon exposures similar to those of some miners. It was necessary for the committee to estimate the risks posed by exposures to radon in homes on the basis of observed lung-cancer deaths caused by higher exposures in mines.”

I am actually on the fence on this issue - far from a religious zealot.

I have been in radiation regulation for about 15 years, have never worked for industry, and have no notion that there are “magic cures” for anything.  In fact, my major concern on this issue is that we, collectively, waste billions of dollars worrying ourselves with hypothetical risks that are completely negligible compared to the lifetime risk of cancer we all face.

According to the NIH, approximately 50% of all men and 37% of all women will have some incidence of cancer in their lifetime, and the mortality risk is about 23% overall.  Yet, we, as a society, lose sleep, and spend billions to prevent that risk from rising to 23.01% (God, forbid!).  It’s insane.  Spend that money providing some minimal level of guaranteed healthcare, or meaningful rehabilitation in our prisons, or paying our teachers a decent wage.

In the case of radiation, the real conclusions from the studies thus far is that in the low dose/low dose-rate region, we do not know the extent of potential harms or benefits.  Period.  The best science right now says, we don’t know.  And, frankly, there is just as much hypothetical harm from over-regulation as under-regulation.

Barbara

Les United States Posted on 08/05/2004 at 06:47 AM

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Barbara, it would appear that I at least owe you an apology. Your latest reply is quite reasonable and I can find no real problems with it.

I would like to point out, though, that my original entry on this topic wasn’t a call for wasting more money trying to negate or control radon—I’ve long suspected that the problem isn’t as bad as it appeared—but rather a criticism of promoting radon exposure as a cure-all. The fact that the best science right now can’t say whether there’s any real harm or benefit from low dose/low dose-rate exposure is enough in my mind to make intentionally exposing yourself to a known carcinogen a pretty stupid thing to do.

You’ll also note, however, that I wasn’t advocating that these operations be shut down just as I don’t advocate the cigarette companies be put out of business. I am, at heart, a libertarian and if you want to do something stupid like smoke cigarettes or sit in radon filled mines then you should be free to do so. Rather than prohibit such activities I prefer to point out how stupid it is as education is often more effective than prohibition in these situations. I take a similar stand on issues such as recreational drugs.

I also think it’s highly irresponsible for the owners of these mines to promote them as a potential treatment for a couple of dozen different ailments without some solid science to back it up, let alone charge for the experience. Again, this harkens back to the hey day of cigarettes when the producers of that product claimed all manner of health benefits from smoking. Or, more recently, to the homeopathic craze which is another thing that appears to be at best harmless and at worst a waste of money that is potentially harmful if the patients don’t seek proper medical care. Of course the best example is the former radon craze of first half of the twentieth century as has been pointed out here by others.

Anyway as I said I owe you an apology as it appears we’re closer in our viewpoints than I originally thought based on your earlier replies.

Ragman United States Posted on 08/05/2004 at 10:33 AM

Ragman pic

Harm from high doses of any substance does not establish any potential harm in the low dose region.

It also does not establish any potential benefit in low doses.  Your tone implies that the assumptions made were frivolous, when it was the closest information available to the situation of the homeowner.  What you have is evidence of harm from high doses, no info of benefits from exposure, so you assume until studies can be carried out that it is likely harmful. 

YOU may never develop cancer from radon.  That does not mean it is safe.  My grandfather died from stroke in his 80s.  He had the longest life span out of all the males in my line so far.  He also smoked (unfiltered for a while) most of his life, right up to the end.  That does not convince me that smoking won’t kill you.

In the end, what you have is a product that may or may not be harmful, may or may not be beneficial, and a lot of suckers. 

Muckerheide and Looney are starting to sound like the fundies in their defensiveness.  That’s just blood in the water around here.

OB United States Posted on 08/05/2004 at 10:47 AM

OB pic

Les, I invited Barb here because I knew she could provide some insight on this issue (and I knew you & she have many similar views).  Having known her for over half my life, I know she’s done a ton of research and that even being so closely involved with the “health questions” around radiation she still considers most of what we see and hear in the media and government to be little more than unjustified fear-mongering and hand-wringing.  Besides, she can write out her positions and arguments so that they make sense to people with WAY more scientific knowledge than I have, yet not leave us ignoramuses scratching our heads thinking, “What the fuck did she just say?” LOL

People like Barb, and YOU, are truly a gift to those of us cursed with an unslakeable thirst for knowledge and no formal education.  The few skills I possess in the art of debate are a direct result of having lived with Barbara and then seeking out others who didn’t mind sharing their thoughts and learning with an eager and curious dork like me.

Back on-topic:  I think it’s just as fucked up that the pharmaceutical industry is allowed - make that encouraged through legislation - to push their products as having the cure for every ill as it is for the alternative medicine crowd to do it.  I wouldn’t put my health completely in the hands of either side (though I admit I lean more toward natural medicine than pharmaceuticals), and I certainly don’t trust the government to have the best interests of the People in mind when they start sticking their fingers into things.

In fact, I tend to think that many of the ailments in the laundry list of the original post (most of which are classified as autoimmune-related disorders) may have become much more common BECAUSE of the overprescription of pharmaceuticals such as antibiotics, corticosteroids, vaccines and immunosuppressants.  Ironically, the course of drug treatment for most of those ailments is steroids and immunosuppressants!

Having experienced the non insignificant side-effects of several years of such treatments for Crohn’s Disease, I can say with some certainty that whatever effects might come of a few visits to a radon-filled mine couldn’t possibly be any worse than what the drugs put me through (and my family, by extension, the poor bastards)!

I’m just sick to fucking death of being told to live under a cloud of fear about nearly everything in my daily life.  War, radiation, cancer, Armageddon - it’s all bullshit.  I see the fear-mongering for what it is: a tool to more effectively control the ignorant masses.  Some people revel in their ignorance and superstition because it’s easier than taking the initiative to educate themselves.  I can only hope that one day there are more of US than them.  Unfortunately, smart people don’t breed as rampantly as the ignorant do.  Damn shame, that!

("earth")

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Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 08/05/2004 at 10:53 AM

decrepitoldfool pic

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

I think you’re being too hard on yourself, Les.  Backing up an extraordinary claim with equivocal evidence is just begging for derision.  Anyone who does that had better develop a pretty thick hide.

I didn’t see anyone calling for regulation of the Radon spas - what the hell, I’d like to see the FDA turned into an advisory agency - it’s all about informed consent as far as I’m concerned.

Maybe they’re on to something and in 200 years, school textbooks can say, “Early proponents of radiotherapy met with derision and laughter, but it is now standard nutrition accepted by everyone.” That possibility is a poor reason to mistake a placebo effect for efficacy today.

Spocko United States Posted on 08/05/2004 at 11:21 AM

Spocko pic

Hi nowiser,

Sometimes I just link directly to the image (you might I’m stealing their bandwidth) but that doesn’t always work. I just use the normal HTML tag for images (img src=bla bla bla). Problem is sometimes those will disappear because the site is changed.

I usually use Image Shack, it’s free and easy to use. You just browse to an image on your hard disk and ImageShack will grab it and give you links you can use. Pretty nifty!

cya

Jim Muckerheide United States Posted on 08/05/2004 at 12:40 PM

Jim Muckerheide pic

Les,

It’s good that you “found some studies.” Can you provide links?

You claim to be reasonable, and I’m unreasonable. But your initial comments had outrageous conclusions and character assassinations, vs. my first as link to an example from an “independent source” peer-reviewed science paper on radon mine therapies simply to show they’re applied in medicine (not as the ultimate ‘proof’), with a note that govt studies intentionally misrepresent radon/radiation health effects (to understand why there can be such discrepancies - it is not a “scientific debate” grin (And I know nothing else about your site, SEB!?, or your rationality - as the chief SEB?) grin

I followed with example US data (peer-reviewed science) showing lower lung cancer in high radon counties. And dozens more PubMed science sources. What’s your assessment?

See more human radon therapy studies.
(Had a broken link, and there may still be problems with some links. Even the Heilstollen link had changed.)

See some background papers on U miners.

See an example animal study that shows that a moderately high radon dose of 25 WLM has excess cancers at high dose rates, and no increase at low dose rates.

Also, go to the database and search for the author [from more than a few?] “Yamaoka, K.” for his research in Japan. (Yamaoka is an MD/radiation researcher, who is now at the Misasa radon springs treating patients).

Especially, e.g., his paper on radon in rabbits.

See also the rad health effects part of our response to letters in “Science” Jan 10, 2003 (p.3), on our Sep 20, 2002 Policy Forum paper in “Science” which went through pretty rigorous review by the “Science” editors ("extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"). grin

See also some early studies on radiation effects and immunology esp. the paper linked from both: “There Never was a Time that the Beneficial Effects of Radiation were NOT Known,” and “It’s Time to Tell the Truth about the Beneficial Health Effects of Ionizing Radiation” and other articles and papers.

You make the point that this is a “known carcinogen” but ignore the data provided that biological response to low vs. high doses of most, if not all, toxins and carcinogens have opposite effects. See this one-pager in the Feb 2003 Nature.

Regards, Jim Muckerheide

Christoph Austria Posted on 08/07/2004 at 05:13 AM

Christoph pic

Jim, thank you for all the material and information you provided for this discussion.

Les, my English is not fluent enough to answer all the details you wrote in your article and the following discussion and I don´t want to waste time. I only would like point out a few facts:

1) You critisize the study of Maastrich University (which is world wide well known for it´s competence for e.g. Ancylosing Spondylitis (a rheumatic disease). I would kindly ask you to give me one study really showing the harmful effects of Low Dose Radiation (LDR) of better quality. You won´t find it. Everything you are claiming has no, absolutely no scientific basis. All arguments are not more then guesses ...

2) Gasteiner Heilstollen (warm and humid radon inhalation therapy) is the world wide (!) biggest treatment facility for Ancylosing Spondylitis. For 50 years we had 250.000 patients doing 2.5 million treatments. Our average patient is coming for 8 times (x 10 treatments) for

a) pain reduction (up to 100%) for months (up to three years, in average 9 months) and
b) reduction of drugs (up to 100%) (the same time)

In Gastein valley about 40.000 patients are treated per year by radon therapy (radon water, radon inhalation) and it is a well established therapy for more then 600 years.

I talk to our patients very often. Sometimes people are crying when talking about “their story” for the first treatment (some of them left the wheel chair) after a years-long search for the right cure.

The treatment is paid by social insurances and thousands of doctors have experience with it.

The overall dose of radiation is for one cure 1,8 mSv, compared to 2,4 mSv out of natural sources for an average European (going up to 20 mSv and more, but very often up to 10 mSv). Within this dose range absolutely no proof is given for any risk. Jim showed you a lot of evidence about the opposite. But even if you calculate a hypothetical risk, it is 20-50 times lower compared to drugs used for rheumatic diseases.

We are no big corporation, we will improve our studies about the effects (I only would like to point out that a high ratio of medicine used by doctors has no double blind study as a basis).

Do you you still think we are talking about a placebo?

I don´t care, please continue to distribute your (from a scientific point of view) unreviewed

BULLSHIT.

Our patients will come again, every year.

Regards

Christoph Koestinger
Executive Director
Gasteiner Heilstollen

Christoph Austria Posted on 08/07/2004 at 05:15 AM

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P.S.: there is a lot of old evidence. Most of it is in German or Russian and double blind studies are existing for radon water.

Christoph

Jim Muckerheide United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 11:24 AM

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Les and skeptics,

I have recently sent the following to our science group:
===========

Friends,

This reports on a clinical trial on radon therapy for endometriosis.

Regards, Jim Muckerheide
========================

Vopr Kurortol Fizioter Lech Fiz Kult. 2003 Nov-Dec;(6):18-21.

[Effect of radon baths of various concentrations on patients with genital endometriosis]

[Article in Russian]

Ovsienko AB.

The study of the effect of radon water in different concentrations (1.5 and 6.5 kBk/l) on a clinical status and endocrine system of patients with genital endometriosis has detected a positive action of both concentrations. High-concentration radon water more effectively decreased the size and tenderness of endometriotic foci as well as concentration of sex steroids. Therefore, a differential approach is needed to prescription of radon water. Its concentration must be based on endometriosis extension and severity of the process.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14753006

Jim Muckerheide United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 11:29 AM

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Christoph,

You’re English was extraordinarily fluent! grin

Thank ou for taking the time to sent your comments.

Regards, Jim
============

Les and skeptics,

I recently sent the following abstract of a paper in the scientific literature on radon studies by Albrecht Falkenbach, who was working as the MD at the Heilstollen Hospital:

(As noted, I will send the full paper on request.)

===================
Friends,

Our friend Albrecht Falkenbach reports on clinical trials of radon therapy for rheumatic diseases. He reviews a number of studies and includes in the meta-analysis here only those that are adequately randomized double-blind studies.

Let me know if you need this paper for review.

Regards, Jim Muckerheide
=========================

Rheumatol Int. 2003 Dec 12 [Epub ahead of print]

Radon therapy for the treatment of rheumatic diseases-review and meta-analysis of controlled clinical trials.

Falkenbach A, Kovacs J, Franke A, Jorgens K, Ammer K.

Gasteiner Heilstollen Hospital, 5645, Bad Gastein-Bockstein, Austria.

OBJECTIVE. The aim of this study was to analyze the effect of radon therapy on pain in rheumatic diseases. METHODS. MEDLINE and MedKur databases were searched for the terms radon plus therapy, rheum, arthritis, and osteo. Radon therapy centers and experts in the field were contacted, proceedings hand-searched, and bibliographies checked for references of potential importance. Included were all prospective randomized controlled clinical trials that compared clinical effects of radon therapy with other interventions in patients with rheumatic diseases and studied pain intensity. Information concerning patients, interventions, results, and methodology were extracted in a standardized manner by all authors independently and summarized descriptively. Reports on pain reduction were pooled for meta-analysis. RESULTS. Five clinical trials with a total of 338 patients and comparing the effect on pain of radon baths (three trials) or radon speleotherapy (two trials) with control intervention in degenerative spinal disease (two trials), rheumatoid arthritis (one trial) and ankylosing spondylitis (two trials) met the inclusion criteria. In meta-analysis, the pooled data showed no difference immediately after treatment ( P=0.13) but significantly better pain reduction in the radon group than the control group at 3 months ( P=0.02) and 6 months ( P=0.002) after treatment. CONCLUSIONS. The existing trials suggest a positive effect of radon therapy on pain in rheumatic diseases. With respect to the potential clinical effect and given the increasing public interest in radon therapy, there is an urgent need for further randomized controlled clinical investigations with long-term follow-up.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14673618

Jim Muckerheide United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 11:32 AM

Jim Muckerheide pic

Les and skeptics,

Finally, I have also recently sent the following to our science group:

(I have received a reply from one of our Polish friends that this is a good paper to be translated to English to be published in the medical literature.)
=======================

Friends,

This paper on radon therapy is rather coincidental considering our “communications” with skeptics unfamiliar with the practice. grin

The full pdf is accessible for free from the PubMed link - for those of you that read Polish!? However the link thru did not get to the pdf file for me.

Zbigniew, Michal, Andrew, Jodi:  Do you think this is worth translating to English?  I see this is a medical journal, and associated with an institute of immunology.  Do you have recommendations on where it could be published?

The author’s email address is included.

Regards, Jim
============

Postepy Hig Med Dosw (Online). 2004 Mar 8;58:150-7.

[Radon and ionizing radiation in the human body]

[Article in Polish]

Zdrojewicz Z, Belowska-Bien K.

Klinika Endokrynologii i Diabetologii Akademii Medycznej we Wroclawiu.

Spa health care became a medical discipline just as the development of other sciences created sufficient grounds for it. The basic and oldest method of spa treatment is balneotherapy. Among the medicinal waters, those with radon arouse the most controversy, these being the source of ionizing radiation. Radon is the one of the most important natural sources of radiation on earth. The exact mechanism of radon’s effect on the human body is not completely understood. The hormesis theory is the best explanation of the advantageous biological effect of ionizing radiation in low doses. Radon significantly influences free oxygen radical transformations, nucleic acid repair, immunological processes, etc. It is a rare gas and does not react chemically with any compound in the body. It is known that radon is effective in treating chronic pain syndromes, endocrine disorders, and diseases of the circulatory and respiratory systems.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15077057

Les United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 11:39 AM

Les pic

Les, my English is not fluent enough to answer all the details you wrote in your article and the following discussion and I don´t want to waste time. I only would like point out a few facts:

This should be interesting.

1) You critisize the study of Maastrich University (which is world wide well known for it´s competence for e.g. Ancylosing Spondylitis (a rheumatic disease). I would kindly ask you to give me one study really showing the harmful effects of Low Dose Radiation (LDR) of better quality. You won´t find it. Everything you are claiming has no, absolutely no scientific basis. All arguments are not more then guesses ...

I’ve heard back from physicist Robert Park (author of the book Voodoo Science) and he agrees that the studies show there is probably little risk from low dose radiation such as might be found in the basements of most homes. Given that I will concede the point that low dose exposures are of minimal risk. He also points out, however, that there aren’t any conclusive studies that show a definite benefit derived from such exposures either. He summed it up with “these people are totally crackers.”

So my opinion has changed: The folks who willingly pay for the priveledge of sitting in radon gas filled mines aren’t dumbasses for exposing themselves to a known carcinogen, but because they think it actually does them any good and is a worthwhile way to spend their money. That makes them less of a dumbass than I previously thought, but still dumbasses just the same.

2) Gasteiner Heilstollen (warm and humid radon inhalation therapy) is the world wide (!) biggest treatment facility for Ancylosing Spondylitis. For 50 years we had 250.000 patients doing 2.5 million treatments. Our average patient is coming for 8 times (x 10 treatments) for

a) pain reduction (up to 100%) for months (up to three years, in average 9 months) and
b) reduction of drugs (up to 100%) (the same time)

This fact only shows there are a lot of dumbasses in the world.

In Gastein valley about 40.000 patients are treated per year by radon therapy (radon water, radon inhalation) and it is a well established therapy for more then 600 years.

Popularity and how long it’s been practiced doesn’t prove its effectiveness. Accupuncture is also very popular and has been around for hundreds of years and yet it also suffers from being inconclusively proven to do much of anything though some studies do suggest that it can be useful in pain control much as you suggest radon gas can be. The problem is that pain is a very subjective thing and can be easily affected by the power of suggestion. It is, as the old cliche goes, largely in your head as the phenomena of the “phantom limb”—where an amputee feels pain in a leg or arm that no longer exists—has shown us.

I talk to our patients very often. Sometimes people are crying when talking about “their story� for the first treatment (some of them left the wheel chair) after a years-long search for the right cure.

Yeah, the same thing happens at Christian Fundamentalist revivals when the preacher “heals” someone via his divinely powered touch. Anecdotal evidence isn’t proof as a lot of people believe a lot of stupid things so much that they’ll cry over them. Alien abductees also exhibit similar passion about their stories.

The treatment is paid by social insurances and thousands of doctors have experience with it.

Which still proves nothing about its effectiveness.

The overall dose of radiation is for one cure 1,8 mSv, compared to 2,4 mSv out of natural sources for an average European (going up to 20 mSv and more, but very often up to 10 mSv). Within this dose range absolutely no proof is given for any risk. Jim showed you a lot of evidence about the opposite. But even if you calculate a hypothetical risk, it is 20-50 times lower compared to drugs used for rheumatic diseases.

As I said I am willing to concede the point about the potential risk, but not about it’s potential effectiveness.

We are no big corporation, we will improve our studies about the effects (I only would like to point out that a high ratio of medicine used by doctors has no double blind study as a basis).

Which proves nothing other than there may be some very irresponsible doctors out there.

Do you you still think we are talking about a placebo?

Yes, in fact, I do.

I don´t care, please continue to distribute your (from a scientific point of view) unreviewed

BULLSHIT.

See? Your mastery of English is quite good I’d say.

Our patients will come again, every year.

No doubt. Unless someone comes up with a pill to cure credulousness I’m sure you can expect to have a healthy (ha!) business for years to come.

GeekMom United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 11:40 AM

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Radon significantly influences free oxygen radical transformations, nucleic acid repair, immunological processes, etc. It is a rare gas and does not react chemically with any compound in the body.

Could somebody please explain these two contradictory statements?  If there is no chemical reaction, how does it do anything?

Sorry, I’m not buying it.  Any time I see a purported treatment that claims both to be efficacious AND to have NO side effects whatsoever, I’m suspicious.  Especially when its proponents claim it does wonderful things but can’t say how.

Jim Muckerheide United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 12:00 PM

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Could somebody please explain these two contradictory statements?  If there is no chemical reaction, how does it do anything?

You’re confusing the chemical properties of inert radon gas, which does not react, with the effects of low doses of ionizing radiation, which is essential for biology to function. Without LDR cells and organisms cease to function. At supplemental levels above background, the molecular and cellular responses are beneficial - high doses are detrimental.

See our partial database Sections 1.2, 1.3 and 3.2.2 (3.3 provides mechanistic studies of cells in culture)

(Although it seems that you haven’t looked at sources previously provided.)

Regards, Jim

Les United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 12:01 PM

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Jim, you’ve got a lot of studies that “suggest” benefit, but nothing that seems too sure of itself yet. Keep digging.

GM, it’s true that radon itself doesn’t chemically react with anything, but it breaks down very quickly releasing alpha particles in the process and producing radioactive byproducts as I mentioned in my earlier reply.

As it turns out there are enzymes in our system that run around patching mutated DNA strands created by low-level radiation such as the sort we’re exposed to every day. Cancer is what happens when there’s so much damaged DNA that the enzymes can’t keep up with it.

The theory behind radon treatment seems to be that by intentionally taking in radon gas and exposing your cells to the radioactivity it generates you force your body’s repair system into action and while fixing the damage inflicted by the alpha particles your body decides that it may as well fix a few other problems it had been meaning to get around to once it stopped sitting on the couch watching late-night television. You know, because it’s already up anyway.

Now, whether it “significantly” influences free oxygen radical transformations or does any of the other stuff they claim is true is still yet to be proven to any great degree though there are studies that “suggest” there may be something behind it.

deadscot United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 12:30 PM

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GeekMom - I don’t think it’s necessarily a contradictory statement.  Radon is one of the noble gases and avoids chemically reacting with common elements such as those found in the human body.  It can, however, serve as a catalyst or influence other reactions such as, say...hmmm...the development of cancerous tumors.

Looking back through this thread I see that that the Radon mine team has some fairly intelligent and strong proponents.  Statistically speaking, wouldn’t it be far more effective for them to put their talents to use in promoting and/or searching for a treatment with more promise than this?  I think that is the point I was trying to make when I said that this thread had taken on somewhat of a religious fanaticism.

captcha = ‘audience’ Yes.  It has grown with this thread.

GeekMom United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 04:19 PM

GeekMom pic

The theory behind radon treatment seems to be that by intentionally taking in radon gas and exposing your cells to the radioactivity it generates you force your body’s repair system into action ...

Sounds just like another version of homeopathy to me.  You know, the classic “it helps your body’s own immune processes.” Then if it doesn’t work, you can just blame that particular body instead of the supposed treatment.  “I guess your own immune system wasn’t strong enough, even with help.”

Okay, so the radon gas itself doesn’t react chemically, but it supposedly provokes chemical reactions.  I think that’s hair-splitting there, that just tries to make the product sound as “safe” and “natural” as any other one advertising “no side effects.”

If this is all about free radicals, why not just eat a bunch of blueberries, or anything else with antioxidants?

(Jim, you’re right, I haven’t bothered to read any of the supporting materials.  I prefer to see a higher-level explanation that makes sense first.)

("fear")

Jim Muckerheide United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 04:35 PM

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You’ve gone from being uneducated, to being dishonest. I suppose that’s the “evil” part.

Didn’t want you to drink from a fire hose, but it’s like asking a rock to drink.

Need double blind? Doesn’t help. Need to prove LDR stimulates enzymes, etc? Lower cancer rates? Cure infections? etc. etc. You ignore the data. Or you don’t understand science. Or just another shill for the drug makers?

Why would you think Bob Park would know? He’s the establishment, mostly just making clever remarks about obvious nonsense, and some on actual science, but with some rather uninformed remarks about areas of science he doesn’t understand (even including some physics, which is rather inexcusable!?) (Used to subscribe. Appreciated the witticisms, but got tired of having to figure out he didn’t know what he was talking about in too many serious science topics.) But in fairness to Bob, I don’t suppose you asked him to review the science either.

I also have to weigh your view of his half-baked conclusion against your own inability to read or understand the data.

If you’re ever interested in understanding the science, and you have actually read any of the scientific evidence, you can ask questions. You have wasted enough time of serious people that have direct knowledge and responsibilities by your lack of intellectual integrity. I haven’t run out of pearls, but my arm is tired. grin

Jim Muckerheide United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 05:12 PM

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Geekmom,

Sounds just like another version of homeopathy to me.  You know, the classic “it helps your body’s own immune processes.â€? Then if it doesn’t work, you can just blame that particular body instead of the supposed treatment.

Homeopathy? infinite dilutions? We’re talking about multiples of background, which not trivial. We aren’t saying .001 mrem will do you good grin

Okay, so the radon gas itself doesn’t react chemically, but it supposedly provokes chemical reactions.  I think that’s hair-splitting there

Not important. The reality is simply that immunological and other relevant responses that are known to improve health and prevent cure debility and disease are stimulated. When you’re young and in good health, this doesn’t do any good - like taking vitamin supplements if you have a good diet that provides all you need. As you age, and you have missing diet and other factors, and your immune system functions slow down, supplemental LDR stimulates those functions.

If this is all about free radicals, why not just eat a bunch of blueberries, or anything else with antioxidants?

But it’s not. Where did you get that? Even if you just look at the antioxidant effect, how many pounds of blueberries would you need to eat to have an equivalent effect? I won’t again list examples of the many effects, but not that other immunotherapies have similar objectives. A couple of years ago one report said that a drug regimen was increasing p53 proteins in the brain by 30% as part of an effort in cancer therapy, while LDR therapy is shown to increase p53 by a factor of 4 or 5. But there’s no incentive to do research, and certainly not clinical trials, on something you can’t patent!

If you misrepresent or don’t understand what is being said in brief summary statements before you are willing read the substantial evidence, you are not likely to get there.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 07:47 PM

elwedriddsche pic

If you misrepresent or don’t understand what is being said in brief summary statements before you are willing read the substantial evidence, you are not likely to get there.

That assumes there is a there there.

I hold no particular views on the therapeutic benefits of LDR, but the way Jim purports himself doesn’t inspire confidence. Perhaps somebody without a vested interest can make a more objective case for it?

captcha: science !!!

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Mark United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 09:12 PM

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Hope everyone is doing well.  I told my sweet grandma that I was an atheist.  She tried to argue about my non-belief.  I just smiled and said I love you Grandma.  Cool?

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 09:17 PM

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There’s a saying in toxicology, “The dose makes the poison” where for example, some nutrients in high doses become toxic. But it’s hard to think of ionizing radiation as a nutrient.  And as for “stimulating the immune system” there’s enough of that going on all the time from the various insults our bodies must endure.

Radon decays into radioactive polonium and alpha particles, then into an isotope of lead and then a few other (radioactive) things, none of them pretty, until it becomes stable pb206.  This would all happen in the lungs to any radon atom that first decays there, because polonium is a solid, not a gas, and would tend to become lodged in the alveoli (which are after all evolved for gas exchange.)

So the “establishment” says this is a bad thing, but we all know better because they don’t want us to know the truth.  Hey, look at all these studies!  Why not waste hours poring over them even though no one has advanced a reasonable explanation of why chromosome damage and toxic residue would be a good thing?  And in spite of epidemiologic data on lung cancer and home radon? (Yes, I do think that danger is overblown.)

Bottom line, spending a few hours a year in a mine is probably not dangerous because your body will repair the damage.  But brother Occam suggests that the placebo effect is the most likely explanation for any symptom relief, because it is the simplest.  Pain is subjective, and so is pain relief.

VernR United States Posted on 08/07/2004 at 10:22 PM

VernR pic

Pain is subjective, and so is pain relief.

Pain has real causes and is real to someone feeling it. It can be blocked through distraction. There is an article in the August issue of Scientific American on Virtual-Reality Therapy. The authors developed a video game to afford relief to burn victims undergoing wound care. (Music isn’t enough for the particular therapies they described.) For the burn victims, they measured abatement through as questionnaire. In a follow up study on healthy volunteers they used MRI to monitor brain activity during induced pain--with and without the video game. They concluded that the video game grabs bandwidth leaving the brain has fewer resources to process pain signals. To me that looks objective rather than subjective.

(sent)

Les United States Posted on 08/08/2004 at 12:13 AM

Les pic

You’ve gone from being uneducated, to being dishonest. I suppose that’s the “evil� part.

While I will make no claims to having the best in terms of an education, I haven’t said anything that I don’t consider to be the truth. If that’s evil, then I’m guilty as charged.

Didn’t want you to drink from a fire hose, but it’s like asking a rock to drink.

You’re right. I won’t concede points at all because I’m just too stubborn. That bit where I admitted in my last reply that I was wrong about the potential risks of low dose radiation is a total mirage because I am incapable of changing my opinion when presented with good reason to do so. No, my inability to accept your position couldn’t possibly be because it’s a weak argument to begin with. I’m just too dumb to realize your brilliance it seems. It must be hard to get through doorways with an intellect as large as yours.

Need double blind? Doesn’t help. Need to prove LDR stimulates enzymes, etc? Lower cancer rates? Cure infections? etc. etc. You ignore the data. Or you don’t understand science. Or just another shill for the drug makers?

I don’t ignore that data, most of what you’ve presented concludes that there is the suggestion of some benefit. That’s hardly conclusive though it does encourage more investigation, which I have nothing against. It’s going to take more than the the suggestion there might be some benefit to change my opinion on the issue. As for my understanding of science, I feel it’s pretty good for not being a scientist myself. Better than most folks’ understanding at least.

Though I will confess that I am just a shill for the drug companies. You caught me. I’m secretly on their payroll to help advance their conspiracy to shut down any form of therapy that isn’t drug-related especially if it involves some poor schleps visiting old mines and sucking in radioactive gasses. Whatever will I do now that you’ve discovered the truth?

Why would you think Bob Park would know? He’s the establishment, mostly just making clever remarks about obvious nonsense, and some on actual science, but with some rather uninformed remarks about areas of science he doesn’t understand (even including some physics, which is rather inexcusable!?) (Used to subscribe. Appreciated the witticisms, but got tired of having to figure out he didn’t know what he was talking about in too many serious science topics.) But in fairness to Bob, I don’t suppose you asked him to review the science either.

I’d think he’d know because his site is one of the places I found out the information about low dose exposure that convinced me that the risk was probably minimal. He had quite a bit of information on the Radon Scare of a few years back and the studies which ended up showing it was overblown. He’s also written extensively about fringe science and thus would likely have come across this issue previously. He appears to my uneducated, evil warped, drug company shrilling mind to be someone who can be trusted on matters such as these.

I certainly know more about him and his qualifications and background than I do you and that automatically makes him someone who’s opinion I’m more likely to trust. Whether he’s “establishment” or not makes no difference to me because I don’t buy into your conspiracy paranoia. Your continuing insistance that such a conspiracy exists just makes you look like a nutjob. If I have to choose between the opinions of someone who’s a nutjob and someone who’s a member of the establishment, well, I’ll go with the non-nutjob every time.

I also have to weigh your view of his half-baked conclusion against your own inability to read or understand the data.

You say that like I should care.

If you’re ever interested in understanding the science, and you have actually read any of the scientific evidence, you can ask questions. You have wasted enough time of serious people that have direct knowledge and responsibilities by your lack of intellectual integrity. I haven’t run out of pearls, but my arm is tired.

All I’ve seen you toss around so far has been a lot of bullshit, to borrow an eloquent turn of phrase from Christoph Koestinger. As for wasting the time of serious people… well, that was good for a belly laugh if nothing else. Oh, and it hurts so much to have you demean my intellectual integrity. It’s kind of like being told I’m stupid by the village idiot. Not exactly the sort of thing I’m going to lose sleep over.

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