“Let’s get things back into perspective here!”
(This phrase is my new theme-song)

What Hezbollah did is EXACTLY like that guy in the World Cup Soccer who head-butted the other player! (By the way, might be coincidence, but he was an Arab as well!)
Allan

Wow.  Originally I’d overlooked this post - no offense Moses, it’s just a topic that depresses me - but I just read through the entire thread.  And, came across this:

Webs:”...you can ask anyone that knows me (including DOF), I am strictly against that, so I would appreciate it if you could keep this conversation civil and stop putting words into my mouth...”

OK, Webs, since you were foolish enough to name-drop me, here it is: I think you’re very one-sided about popular Muslim interests, and very naive about what would happen if Israel just put down their weapons and said: “Hey, everybody, sorry about that whole bellicosity thing, our bad.  Let’s just chill now, OK?”

Name-dropping is hijacking someone else’s credibility, putting words in their mouth.  Don’t do it.  At least, do it to someone else. 

To the main thread of the discussion I have nothing to add, my apologies.

DOF I would appreciate it if you would stop taking what I say out of context, not just here but else where, I think reading what I originally posted, when the PRECEEDING WORDS of what you posted are added back in, clearly shows I am not name-droping you.  Check below:

I have never called for the genocide of a race or ethnic group, and you can ask anyone that knows me (including DOF), I am strictly against that, so I would appreciate it if you could keep this conversation civil and stop putting words into my mouth (or fingers I guess).

So DOF, would you care to answer that, am I against genocide, since that was what I was clearly asking.

Webs complains:

DOF I would appreciate it if you would stop taking what I say out of context… So DOF, would you care to answer that, am I against genocide, since that was what I was clearly asking.

I only addressed the context that mattered to me, Webs, but here you go: 

“Hey everyone, I think Webs is probably against genocide!” Happy? 

Name-dropping is when you use your relationship to another person as an argument for your own credibility, in this case your disavowal of genocide.  It is in the same logical class as “Some of my best friends...” And, it implies that the other person agrees with you generally, putting them in the position of having to make awkward corrections.

If you feel someone has misunderstood your position, just say so.  For a good example, see GM’s answer to DWangerin.

I did feel someone has misunderstood what my position and I showed you how in my last post.  You don’t like your name being dropped anymore than I don’t like you taking my quotes out of context.  If the statement in which I used you as a reference was a false statement I think you would have a legitimate reason to be upset, but it really did not put you in an awkward position.  If you had not came in here and said I am against genocide, no one probably would think I am for the genocide of Israel or any people, since I have never made a statement to that affect.

Geekmom,

I apologize if I sounded serious in my proposal.

Ahh, I missed the humor; it all makes sense now.  I couldn’t figure out why a normally rational person had flipped out…

your list is pretty one-sided too

Only the last two links were really biased, and I though that the video was at least thought-provoking, which is why I didn’t put such a disclaimer on it.  In fact, watching the video was one of the reasons I started doing research into the history of the middle east: it seemed to make some good points, so I wanted to find out more and what was supported or refuted.

My reply was definitely leaning towards the anti-Israel side, mainly because I was responding to the pro-Israel arguments.  I’m also very shocked and disappointed with Israel’s actions: in the past I always through of them as being the good guys and knowing how to handle threats from years of experience.  Their bombing campaign has really soured my opinion of them, as they seem to have forgotten everything they learned about effectively fighting terrorist groups.  I’m having a hard time defending their actions, even though I do think that Hezbollah’s actions are despicable.

Les,

Israel claims they are not intentionally targeting civilians

Unfortunately, it appears that it is only a claim.  From the reports I’ve read, they have been less than discriminate about what they are targeting.  This is also reflected in the fact that the bombing campaign has made 750,000 Lebanese homeless (out of 3.8 million residents of Lebanon).  Also, consider the targets of their bombing campaign: they have repeatedly attacked Beirut and other targets in northern Lebanon, they have destroyed two clearly marked ambulances, they have destroyed a hospital, and they have target infrastructure of the entire country (radio towers, power grid, oil reserves, etc).  Check out this map for a listing of targets hit in Lebanon.  Before they were hit, the UN observation post made at least 6 phone calls (early reports said 10) to the IDF saying that the attacks were getting too close to their position: each time they were assured that they were safe.  This is why Kofi Annan was so pissed about the incident.  As for death tolls, according to the Daily Star: “At least 828 Lebanese, almost all of them civilians, have been killed and 3,200 wounded over the last three weeks, the Higher Relief Committee said on Tuesday. Fifty-one Israelis have also been killed, most of them soldiers.”

If the Lebanese people don’t want to be stuck in the middle then they should be doing something about removing the Hezbollah elements that are using their country as a battleground.

This is exactly the problem for the Lebanese: their country has been occupied for the last ~18 years, by Israel in the south and by Syria in the north.  Israel pulled out in 2000 and Syria was thrown out in 2005.  The central Lebanese government is not strong enough yet, politically or militarily, to push out Hezbollah (Hezbollah is ranked as having the 4th most powerful military in the middle east, although I’m not sure who does the ranking).  What are the ordinary civilians supposed to do?  As from your link, the Lebanese Christians were unable to keep the Hezbollah fighters away from their positions: does that give Israel the right to bomb them?  Also, Israel has repeatedly bombed the Lebanese Army, so how is the Lebanese government supposed to fight against or control Hezbollah?  From reading all that I have done, I just end up feeling bad for the Lebanese citizens, as they are real victims.

Are you asking what the actual international laws about this are or what our personal opinions are?

Personal opinions, although international laws would be useful as well.  What I’m trying to get down to is finding out what would be appropriate responses to attacks, whether terrorist or military in nature.  I’m not sure about this myself, but I do feel that the IDF has crossed the line.

For what it’s worth, I really very much doubt that any “plan” will bring about peace in the Middle East.  There is enough true injustice on both sides to keep the fire burning basically forever.

It may take a popular movement of people who say; “Violence is our enemy.  From this day forward I will kill no one.  If someone kills me, I ask that vengeance not be taken.”

As strategy, of course nonviolence is useless.  Nations will continue to fight around them.  But gradually more people could say “enough”.  Indigenous leaders are needed to get it started.

I do realize how idealistic this sounds.  At some interim stage, people must stop giving social support for killing.  It will probably take a hundred years to “work”.  I would dismiss it as fantasy if I thought that killing a few more people on either side would finally balance the scale.

DOF, it’s obvious that the situation will not improve until it first gets a lot worse. Sadly, there are too many players that have a vested interest in keeping this kettle at a boil.

All the so-called plans are stillborn unless somebody impartial or at least pissed off equally by all sides enforces compliance and impeccable behaviour with an iron fist. Even that will only buy time, though.

Strategically you’re right, and I hope that is exactly what happens.  Probably the “equally pissed off at all sides” scenario is most likely.

Which raises an interesting point.  When someone is more pissed off at one side than the other (as I am) it is all too easy for others to pigeonhole them as having no concern for the crimes of “their” side.  But maybe Condi can do some good, because she always looks like she’s pissed off at everybody - even when she’s smiling.

Obviously what I have suggested is something nations cannot do, only individuals.  Nations can continue doing what they feel is necessary.

Hmmm...I guess I might de-lurk at last to post an interesting opinion by an Israeli Journalist on the situation that I haven’t yet seen quoted here on SEB...Pro-Israel opinions may not be hard to come by, but I think this particular opinion is very well written, and this thread might need just one more.

An Israeli Defense – A Letter to the Leaders of the World

Ladies and Gentlemen, leaders of the world. I carry these words from Jerusalem, as a response
to the difficult scenes displayed from Kana. Every human heart contracts when viewing these
scenes. There are no words powerful enough to provide comfort with this type of a disaster. And
still, I look you straight in the eye and say loud and clear: Israel will continue its military
operation in Lebanon.

The Israeli Defense Forces will continue to attack targets from which missiles and Katyusha
rockets are being fired at hospitals, old-age homes, and kindergartens in Israel. The IDF has
been instructed to continue to hunt down Katyusha reserves, launching pads, and gun barrels
through which these savages bomb and attack Israel.

We will not hesitate, we will not apologize, and we will not be weakened. If Katyushas continue
to be launched into Israel from Kana, we will continue to bomb Kana. Today, tomorrow, and the
following day. Here, there, and everywhere. The children of Kana could have been sleeping
peacefully in their homes, uninterrupted, had the demonic messengers not taken over their land
and turned our children’s lives into hell on earth.

Ladies and Gentlemen, it is time you understand: The Israeli State will not longer be stomped
on. We will no longer allow anyone to take advantage of highly-populated areas as a front to
bomb our citizens. No man will be able to hide behind women and children with the sole
purpose of murdering our women and children any longer. This anarchy and irresponsibility is
over. You can denounce us, you can boycott us, you can stop traveling to Israel, and if it will be
necessary we will stop traveling to your country.

I am the voice of six million Israeli citizens who are being bombed, symbolic of the six million
Jews who were exterminated and cremated into ashes and dust by savages in Europe. In both
cases, those responsible for these atrocious and sinful acts were barbarians lacking in any
human decency who had one simple goal: To obliterate the Jewish race off the face of the
earth, in the words of Adolf Hitler, or to erase the State of Israel off the world map, in the words
of Mahmud Ahmadinijad.

And just like you didn’t take things seriously then, you are ignoring them now. That, Ladies and
Gentlemen, leaders of the world, will not happen. Never again. We will never again wait for the
world to rescue us from the gas chambers. We will never again wait for a salvation that will not
come. We now have our own air force. Israel can now stand up to those who want to kill us.

They will no longer be able to hide behind their women and children. They will no longer be
absolved of all responsibilities.

Every place from which missiles are fired into the State of Israel will be a legitimate target for
our attacks. It needs to be said clearly, one time, to the entire world. You are welcome to judge
us, ostracize us, boycott us, and defame us. But kill us? Absolutely not.

Four months ago, Ehud Olmert was elected by hundreds of thousands of citizens to the post of
Prime Minister, based on his plan to unilaterally withdraw from 90% of the occupied territories,
which are part of the heart and soul of the Jewish people, with the sole purpose of ending most
of the occupation and allowing the Palestinian people to turn over a new leaf and pacify the
tensions until the conditions for a permanent settlement between us would be ready.

Former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip to the
internationally recognized border and gave the Palestinians an opportunity to build themselves a
new reality. His predecessor, Edud Barak, ended the long-term Israeli presence in Lebanon and
withdrew the IDF to international lines, allowing Lebanon to flourish, develop, and base itself as
a democratic country with a strong economy.

What did the State of Israel receive in return for these? Did we have one moment of peace and
quiet? Was our outstretched hand greeted with an encouraging handshake? Ehud Barak’s
peace initiative at Camp David released upon us a wave of suicide bombers who shattered and
blew up more than 1,000 citizens, women and children, into pieces. I don’t remember any of you
this enraged back then. Could it be because we didn’t allow close-ups of the dismembered
teenagers at the Dolphinarium? Or the broken lives of those celebrating Passover who were
butchered at Park Hotel in Netanya? There’s nothing we can do, that’s how it is here. We don’t
display dead bodies in front of TV cameras. We mourn quietly.

We don’t dance on the rooftops when the children of our enemies are killed. We express true
sorrow and remorse. All these are the animalistic rituals of our enemies. Today they are our
enemies. Tomorrow, they will be yours. You’re already acquainted with the murderous flavor of
this terror. You’ve tasted it. You will taste it again.

And look at Ariel Sharon’s disengagement from the Gaza Strip. What we get for it? A shower of
Kasam missiles on otherwise-peaceful towns, suicide bombings and attacks, and the
kidnapping of a soldier. I don’t remember you reacting with such panic and fear at that time
either. And here, for the past six years the withdrawal from Lebanon has been struck with the
words and crimes of a dangerous Iranian messenger; an extremist who has taken over an entire
country in the name of religious fanaticism and is trying to take Israel hostage on his way to
Jerusalem and ultimately Paris and London.

An enormous infrastructure of terror has been established by Iran on our borders, threatening
our citizens, getting stronger in front of our eyes, waiting for the moment when Iran becomes a
nuclear stronghold, waiting to bring us to our knees. Don’t get me wrong: we are not going down
alone. You, the leaders of the free world, the enlightened world, are going down with us.

So today I would like to put an end to this hypocrisy. I can’t remember such a reaction to 100
citizens being killed each day in Iraq. Sunnis killing Shi’ites who kill Sunnis, all of whom are
killing Americans, and the world is silent. And I am having a difficult time remembering a similar
reaction when the Russians wiped out entire villages and set fire to large cities in order to
depress the mutiny in Chechnya. And when NATO bombed Kosovo for nearly 3 months, and
crushed a civilian population, you all looked away. What is it about us, the Jews, the few, the
persecuted, that awakens all of this cosmic justice? What is it that we have that the others
don’t?

I stand here before you today, loud and clear, with my head held high, looking you straight in the eye, not apologizing. Not giving in. Not whining. This struggle is for our freedom. For our image.

For our right to have a normal life within our recognized and legitimate borders. This is also your struggle. I pray and believe that you will understand it now. Because if you don’t, you might
regret it later. When it is too late.

This was penned by Ma’ariv writer Ben Caspit, in case anyone wants a source.  Feel free to deconstruct said arguments now, if you wish.

No arguments from me. The above is largely why I’ve not been criticizing Israel’s war. They’ve got better reasons for their actions than we did with Iraq.

D.W. left a number of loose ends to tie up. The article quoted by LostInUtah implicitely answers some, but not all.

What is lost in debates like this is the profound distinction between fighting the root causes of terrorism and fighting terrorists.

Webs position amounts to saying that exclusively addressing the root causes of terrorism will necessarily stop the terrorism. There are some obvious gaps in that theory.

D.W. engages in dorm room philosophy: If party A deliberately kills N non-combatants of party B, how large a number M can party B kill in reponse? To state the obvious, absent the stimulus the question of what is and what isn’t a proportionate response would be moot. It is also the kind of question that can’t be answered meaningfully outside of the specific historical and situational context.

By the way, the list of targets hit mentioned by D.W. is not a sufficient basis for a rational debate on that topic. That would require corresponding lists of targets aimed at, the reasons that made these targets a target, and if applicable, the reasons why an intended target was missed.

It seems to come down to the question can the UN displace a people to create a homeland for another? Would the US comply if this happened for Native Americans? (NO Obviously).  What if the rest of the world found some (hypothetical) magic lever to force the US to give, say, the east coast ‘back’.

Of course there will be peace one day in the middle east- my guess is by 2050 AT THE LATEST. I promise you that one day no more shots will be fired.  Of course the day before will be when the WMDs went off…