I agree mostly with what you write Moses, but there is just one problem with it.  The war between Lebannon and Israel wasn’t started because of Hezbollah’s actions, but rather Hezbollah’s capturing of an Israeli soldier is a consequence of Israeli actions in the Middle East.  And this unfortunately does matter. 

Was it stupid of them to take such actions, probably, but it’s hard to say, I don’t live over there and go through what they do every day.  I can sit here and say that a violent reaction to Israel’s actions are stupid, but I also have the luxory of not holding my new-born baby screaming because its head was blown off by the explosion of an Israeli (Also read: US) missle.

And remember, Israel doesn’t have to bomb the hell out of Lebanon to outroot Hezbollah (which is actually killing 2/3 more innocent civilians than terrorists).  There are other methods of rooting out terrorism, and using terrorism to outroot terrorism is, I think, a stupid way of going about it.

America wants a pretext to further its expand its presence in the Middle East, this is it. Why else would America allow the israeli arseholes unfettered outpouring of agression againts Lebanon.

Israel has its own political motives too… and I don’t think this whole skirmish was a result of a border clash, but most likely a response to Israels unprovoked incursion into the Gaza strip, a beach no less, that resulted in civilian deaths… then it sorta went quiet, then the next thing is this.

Just spare me the defending its borders bullshit.

Damn America and Damn Israel!

Webs,

The war between Lebannon and Israel wasn’t started because of Hezbollah’s actions, but rather Hezbollah’s capturing of an Israeli soldier is a consequence of Israeli actions in the Middle East. 

Bullshit.

You can find valid reasons to take Israel to task, like getting to the bottom of the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty.

For contrast, read Krauthammer’s Israel’s Existence at Stake (yes, that Krauthammer) and Daniel Gordis’s The First War, All Over Again.

Instead of blaming Israel, enlighten us and give us a workable plan how Israel can get the Arabs to accept Israel’s right to exist.

Tony,

Damn America and Damn Israel

And damn the damp rock you crawled out under from… Why don’t you post on skadi.net instead?

Webs

I agree mostly with what you write Moses, but there is just one problem with it.  The war between Lebannon and Israel wasn’t started because of Hezbollah’s actions, but rather Hezbollah’s capturing of an Israeli soldier is a consequence of Israeli actions in the Middle East.  And this unfortunately does matter. 

If you had really read the piece you would have seen this;

Same situation right now with the conflict in Southern Lebanon. Doesn’t matter what the issues are or the justification or even who is right and who is wrong. I won’t get into that here.

The point of the article was what my wife said about the Argentinians going to war against Britan and applies to the Middle East as well.
NOW, this is my fault - (I forgot to put down what she said and the whole point behind the conversation.) What she said was:

“WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING!!!
Your Scribe
Allan W Janssen

Tony N: Israel has its own political motives too…

Would that tie in with their desire for the security of Israel which, let’s face it, is only about 1/5 the size of Tassie or not much bigger than Fiji?
Like, they don’t want much; just their own patch of sand, as agreed by the UN in 1947(?).
I may be wrong, but the main reason the PLO never signed any peace accord is that most (I’m not sure about Jordan) of the Muslim countries want the Jews, to put it nicely, ‘pushed into the sea’ ... what they really want is the unconditional destruction of Israel.
Mate, if it was all as simple as you seem to think it is, peace in the ME woulda happened years ago.
Please don’t get sucked into the anti-Semitic diatribe you’ve so obviously been programmed with.

Elwed: For contrast, read Krauthammer’s Israel’s Existence at Stake (yes, that Krauthammer) and Daniel Gordis’s The First War, All Over Again.

Your link (?) to ‘Israel’s Existence at Stake’ takes me to a void. Will this one do?

LJ19: Good catch. Fixed.

When individuals/organizations are blowing up, robbing and oppressing people you claim that as criminality/terrorism, when nations/governments do it you claim it as foreign/security policy.
(and with big multinational corporations involved in some of those it’s freedom of market)

And what about murder of those four UN observers?
That bomb hitting precisely to observation post wasn’t any collateral damage but murder.
Also weapons used in that quite propably happened to have US’s signature on them making your country as accomplice.
But now that’s nothing new, US has been interfering to events in other countries and arming various groups wanting to kill/terrorise others not agreeing with them as much as Soviet Union. (plus even giving arm help to that world’s most murderous regime despite of it first invading many nations)

While it took so long from your assholy leader to give any sound from killing civilians he sure as h*ll was quick to make sure there’s plenty of weapons available for causing more of these “collateral damages”.

Also in fact this “security by pre-emptive aggressivity” policy of yours is straight from manifestos of Hitler’s Nazi Germany.

I couldn’t anymore care less who killed first innocents, both sides are now equally quilty to war crimes, terrorism and inciting conflict.
While history is always important to remember past events like Israel being attacked by neighbour countries are quite irrelevant for solving situation in future and neither they give any justification for agression towards civilian.
It’s current events that matter in future and in that area Israel has really distinguished itself in giving plenty of reasons for many current civilians with Israel antipathy to start fighting back in future.

First victim of war is truth!

E.T.,

before answering to your rant, I’ll issue the same challenge to you that I did to Webs:

In your opinion, how do you propose to get the Arabs to accept Israel’s right to exist, without sacrificing Israel’s security interests?

I trust you have a workable solution?

Now, I don’t follow the news and I have no clue what incident regarding UN observers you refer to.

Concerning collateral damage, I’ll have to strongly disagree with you. In an armed conflict, military targets are always fair game. If military assets are intentionally placed in the vicinity of civilians, it is not the attacker who is conceivably guilty of war crimes, but those who place these assets in the first place.

There is also nothing intrinsically wrong with a pre-emptive attack. One obligation a state assumes is to ensure the safety of its citizens and waiting until the other side opens hostilities may result in greater harm to the own population. The crux of the matter is what does and what doesn’t constitute a casus belli to launch a preventive war.

Has Israel committed war crimes? Regardless of your definition of war crimes, the answer is probably in the affirmative. However, the other side isn’t exactly playing by gentlemanly rules itself, so either you evenhandedly lambast both sides or simply regret the casualties.

Does the current conflict create additional ill will towards Israel? Perhaps, but as long as the Arabs want Israel wiped off the map, it doesn’t really matter, does it.

As to: “First victim of war is truth!”, the truth of the Arabs true intentions seems lost on many.

Also in fact this “security by pre-emptive aggressivity� policy of yours is straight from manifestos of Hitler’s Nazi Germany.

I had a little trouble following your rant but I get the idea that your diss-ing Israel and the U.S from what you concieve of as a moral high ground.
If that is the case you can go royally fuck yourself because the problem is not Israel, it’s not the U.S. and it’s not the Arabs!
The prbolem is a bunch of lunatic/fanatics who are caught up in territorial, ideological, disparate and misguided macho belief that they can impose their will on the majority.
Unfortunatly the Middle East has more than enough of these assholes to go around and anyone over there who has a bitch or just wants to have people do things HIS way can get a bunch of his buddies together and have a party!!! 
And yes I said HIS because the mentality over there is a machismo/mysogonist one that puts the Italians and Spanish and Turks to shame.
Remember we are dealing with the hot-blooded nationalites. Not like us cool stoic Northern Europeans. (I’m German descent, which is also why that crack about Hitler pissed me off, it is after all a sore spot for most Germans.)
Your Scribe
Allan W Janssen

Allan,

it’s not rocket science to figure out where I’m coming from - Germany, of course. For some odd reason or other, my family has always had a strange affinity towards Jewish people and for a very specific reason, the PLO fuckwads and their sympathizers have been on my shitlist since 1972. I don’t often bear grudges, but if do I play for keeps.

Your above post is right on. Thank you.

I am fed up and disgusted with people telling Israel what not to do. Can we have somebody with constructive criticism for a change?

Would that tie in with their desire for the security of Israel which, let’s face it, is only about 1/5 the size of Tassie or not much bigger than Fiji?
Like, they don’t want much; just their own patch of sand, as agreed by the UN in 1947(?).

Um, just a question, but you do realize that all
of the Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank are illegal, not only by Geneva Conventions, but also by the UN security resolution in 1967.  The whole “They just want their own patch of sand” is bullshit.  There are other more peaceful ways Israel could attempt to get land, and forcing yourself in is probably not the best solution.  Also least us not forget that the land they want is not there’s for the taking.

I may be wrong, but the main reason the PLO never signed any peace accord is that most (I’m not sure about Jordan) of the Muslim countries want the Jews, to put it nicely, ‘pushed into the sea’ ... what they really want is the unconditional destruction of Israel.

The real reason the peace accord was never signed was because no leader in their right mind would have signed that document for their country.  Yes the document called for a 90% pollout of Israel from the settlements, but the 10% that would have been left would be in areas that would control ALL of the resources of the land.  Palestinians would have nothing.  They would have no way to create a stable economy.  Not only that, but Israel would still get to keep their roadways and checkpoints that would basically control all of the land that is not theirs.  It’s very similar to saying, “You know what, I will give you your house back, but I get to control the traffic flow through your house .  Want to go to the bathroom, too bad.” How is that peace?

In your opinion, how do you propose to get the Arabs to accept Israel’s right to exist, without sacrificing Israel’s security interests?

Simple, here is my solution.  First America has to cut all funding to Israel.  The US averages about $6 billion in funding to Israel a year.  This has to stop.  And America has to stop giving Israel military power, such as free blackhawk helicopters, free F16 fighter jets, and free missles.  Then America has to sign or not veto the 1967 UN security resolution to get Israel out of Gaza and West Bank.  Also Israel has to agree to tear down the walls that are caging in the Palestinians.  Israel also has to agree to no more pre-emptive strikes. 

Once all of this is accomplished Palestinians have to agree to live with Israel.  This is the only way peace can be accomplished.  I agree that Palestinians need to get rid of their terrorist groups, but violence is the only way they see for survival.  I don’t agree with it one bit, but then again I have never had an Israeli soldier ask me which leg I wanted to keep as I tried to cross through a checkpoint with work papers in hand.

If that is the case you can go royally fuck yourself because the problem is not Israel, it’s not the U.S. and it’s not the Arabs!
The prbolem is a bunch of lunatic/fanatics who are caught up in territorial, ideological, disparate and misguided macho belief that they can impose their will on the majority.

I absolutely agree with you, but where did those fundis come from?

The real reason the peace accord was never signed was because no leader in their right mind would have signed that document for their country.

Let me fill you in on something.... there was an agreement for peace between Israel and the Palestinians and at the very last second Arafat pulled out and walked out because that would have taken away his control. You see he personally had more to gain by maintaining the “Status Quo”
This, by the way, is the same guy, who when he died, was found to have squirelled away about 600 million dollars!!
Unforunatly there are still dozens of “Arafats” over there who are simply out to maintain their own power base and money. That’s THE main stumbling block to solving all the problems in the Middle East.
Why don’t you people find out what’s going on before you make assinine staements on what YOU think the problems are!
Your Frustrated Scribe
Allan W Janssen

Hmm interesting response Moses, but you failed in your diatribe to answer any question I might have posed.  I never argued that Arafat was a great man, I simply said he never signed it for the reason I stated, and since you failed to refute them you must agree with them.  Meaning YOU THINK he didn’t sign it because he was greedy and wanted control. 

Why don’t you people find out what’s going on before you make assinine staements on what YOU think the problems are!

I am not making any asinine statements.  But if you would like me to show you what one is I can give you an example.  Person A argues an issue with person B.  Person A says something.  Person B then counters with his opinion on the issue, but fails to refute what Person A says, and instead insults him and makes him feel like an ass.  That is an asinine statement, and not only does nothing to add to the argument at hand, but instead leads to a pissing contest.  I call this the O’Rielly defense.  Why argue with logic and reason when you can just bully and yell?

OK - you’re right, my apologies!
NOW go fuck yourself

Moses is a little testy today…

Not really Web, I just have a really strange sense of humour and I am stuck in the house with the heat so I’m bored.
No offense meant
Allan

Les, I am testy.

I am a simple guy, so I’ll use simple words. It is my considered opinion that Webs is full of shit. His proposed “peace plan” speaks for itself.

It is also my considered opinion that the caged Palestinians can go fuck themselves. It doesn’t matter how many concessions Israel makes, they’ll never rest until Israel is no more. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - I’m deeply unmoved by their “plight”. All they need to do is to stop being somebody else’s stooges and to stop the terror they initiate.

Let me get this straight. 

Elwed issues a challenge to Webs:

In your opinion, how do you propose to get the Arabs to accept Israel’s right to exist, without sacrificing Israel’s security interests?

Stooge Webs’ “peace proposal” is:

Simple, here is my solution.  First America has to cut all funding to Israel.  The US averages about $6 billion in funding to Israel a year.  This has to stop.  And America has to stop giving Israel military power, such as free blackhawk helicopters, free F16 fighter jets, and free missles.  Then America has to sign or not veto the 1967 UN security resolution to get Israel out of Gaza and West Bank.  Also Israel has to agree to tear down the walls that are caging in the Palestinians.  Israel also has to agree to no more pre-emptive strikes.

Let’s assume (making a BIG stretch) that this is Webs’ plan to “get the Arabs to accept Israel’s right to exist.”

So what’s going to be the second part—WITHOUT SACRIFICING Israel’s security interests?

Once all of this is accomplished Palestinians have to agree to live with Israel.

Oh, right.  Yeah, that’ll work.  Webs, it’s clear which side of your bread is buttered.  Say, you wouldn’t happen to be Mel Gibson sobered up, would you?

Idjit.

All they need to do is to stop being somebody else’s stooges and to stop the terror they initiate.

Oh right I forgot, Palestinians haven’t been living on that land till British and France came and helped the now Israeli’s take it over.  Yup and I also forgot that it was the Palestinians fault that the Israeli’s built settlements on Palestinian land, which is against the Geneva Convention.

But hey no worries, I always enjoy having a peaceful conversation with people.

Oh, right.  Yeah, that’ll work.  Webs, it’s clear which side of your bread is buttered.  Say, you wouldn’t happen to be Mel Gibson sobered up, would you?

Nope, I havere never heard anything he has said on the issue, and I never wish to.  If you think Israel is the is in any kind of a poor plight, why don’t you try listening to some BBC reports or even some Israeli reporting in that area.  There are more outspoken Israeli news sources in Israel than there are in America.  You can’t find once news source in the US that doesn’t have a bias toward Israel.

Oh, right.  Yeah, that’ll work.

This goes to everyone watching this thread; instead of laying waste to my plan and calling me names and picking on me for no reason what so ever, how about you pony up and give me your solution.  Since all of you here appear to be experts on the situation right?  And I am just some little bitch that hasn’t done any outside research or talked to any Palestinians or Israelis on this issue right?  Since I supposedly listen to nutballs like Gibson right?  Since I don’t have a true interest in what is actually going on over there?  Give me a break, explain to me what makes your opinion the authoritative position here.

I trust you have a workable solution?

Now, I don’t follow the news and I have no clue what incident regarding UN observers you refer to.

At least I’m not encouraging people to incite whole mess to even bigger.

And I’m sure in US media hasn’t exactly advertised deaths of UN observers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5215366.stm
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060724/israel_fighting_060725/20060725?hub=CTVNewsAt11

Has Israel committed war crimes? Regardless of your definition of war crimes, the answer is probably in the affirmative. However, the other side isn’t exactly playing by gentlemanly rules itself

In that case we both agree.
Now could your country put all quilties to line for execution? If you don’t have anyone to do the job I would gladly do the job of pushing the button. (I think using bomb for that would be more approriate considering primary methods used in biggest crimes)

(I’m German descent…

Well, thanks for giving help for preventing Stalin’s invasion attempt…
(previously sanctified in agreement between Hitler and Stalin leading to whole invasion attempt, which was then somehow forgotten by western countries in Paris)

This, by the way, is the same guy, who when he died, was found to have squirelled away about 600 million dollars!!
Unforunatly there are still dozens of “Arafats� over there who are simply out to maintain their own power base

What a surprise, that’s about what all leaders in every country are doing for benefit of themselves and their buddies.

And let’s not forget Israel’s own extremists whose grap from side of power depends heavily from continuation of this extreme unstability.
In fact it was one them who killed Rabin. Merely that should remind you that there are enemies of peace equally on both sides.

I am stuck in the house with the heat…

Could you then open windows and let that heat out? Maybe some of it would make it this far and change this autumnlike weather.

PS. Sanctifying agressive and threatening means for “security/defense” can be equally well used for defending Iran’s nuclear program and North Korea’s ballistic missile program… after all they’re being threatened by others! (not that I would love those countries)

Nuh-uh, Webs, you don’t get to weasel out of this.  Answer Elwed’s question.  Exactly HOW do you propose to achieve peace without sacrificing Israel’s security interests?

It’s clear that you don’t give a shit about Israel’s security.  You just want Israel wiped off the face of the map and you’re too cowardly to come out and admit it, so you dance around the issue.

Tell you what:  I’ll buy into your plan if you agree that at the VERY FIRST attack on Israel after its implementation, Israel and the US get to nuke the shit out of Gaza and give it back to Israel.  I’m sure that’ll NEVER happen, because once we follow your plan, the whole Middle East will be happy and shiny and willing to “live with Israel.” Right?

E T lets just examine one of your quotes

And I’m sure in US media hasn’t exactly advertised deaths of UN observers.

referring to th fact that the BBC is all over this one!
Somewhere today I read that the BBC is so anti -U.S. that as far as Middle East Coverage is concerned they might as well be wearing those head coverings, whatever they are called. And the Canadian media is so left wing (even though I am to some extent too)that you can’t get a fair statement from them.
As far as the comment about Germany and Stalin just because I said I’m German- I’’ll give you a good analogy - (that means comparison!)
That has as much to do with what we are talking about as the price of tea in China.
AND NOW as far as the rest of your (Plural) statements - I am not being funny this time -you and webs CAN go fuck yourselves because you don’t know from shit. So there!
Your freindly scribe
Allan W Janssen

Just read a post on my own blog/rant http://groups.msn.com/God-101 “Let’s get things back into perspective here!” where some idiot said “The whole week has been full of death, destruction and war. Why don’t we make this a peacefull Saturday and declare it a ‘Hug a stranger day!’”
RIGHT, and get slugged for being a queer or molester!
No thanks, I think I’ll just stay snarky.(and re-examine who makes comments on the site too)
Your Scribe
Allan W Janssen

Webs, let’s cut to the chase:

Do you accept Israel’s right to exist or not?

If you read this an other threads on related topics, you will not find me claiming to have an answer to the question I asked. You, on the other hand, made such a claim and we’re calling you on it.

As far as who is holding the authoritative position is concerned, I do not recall making such claim. Since you raised the issue, though, what are your qualifications? Please note that ever since you outed yourself as a WTC conspiracist, you have no credibility whatsoever with me.

And what the not being funny moses said.