I thought we were looking for another guy, too. Osama bin something or other. I forget the exact name, it’s not like he plotted to destroy the WTC or anything.

Well, yeah, there is that guy still. That would be a much more impressive capture.

He actually looks like Mr. Edwards from little house on the prarie....lol

I am with you on the issue about WMD’s Les....

LOL @ Kat.. oh my word! You are right he does!

Part of me doesn’t beleive it another part makes me think something is up?

Yet how I can’t help but think How F@%#ing convenient for Mister Dubaya.  Granted not going to sit here and repeat what I have posted myself.. We shall see.

9 months!? How about almost 13 years! He should have been captured during or just after the first “conflict” with them!

From AP: “Though the raid occurred Saturday afternoon American time, U.S. officials went to great length to keep it quiet until medical tests and DNA testing confirmed Saddam’s identity.”

Can they obtain valid DNA results this quickly now? The last I heard it still took weeks.

Haven’t you heard?  We’ve apparently decided that Osama is “out of the picture”.

Certainly capturing Saddam is a good thing, as he is a bad man who will now hopefully be brought to justice (and hopefully in a fair and not-too-much-of-a-media-circus manner).  But regarding the “war on terrorism”, Saddam is rather inconsequential.  Capturing “Osama bin Forgotten” (as Bob Graham called him) would be much more of an accomplishment.

makes me think something is up? ... I can’t help but think How F@%#ing convenient for Mister Dubaya.

Oh please.  This crap holds about as much water as an ignorant Palestinian thinking everything is an “Israeli Conspiracy”.  An attitude encouraged by the kleptocratic dictatorships of the Middle East because it distracts people from the ineptitude of their own governments.

Your comment is the left-wing equivalent of the wackos on talk radio who still bray on and on about how Hilary Clinton had Vince Foster killed to cover up her lesbian affair with Tipper Gore.

Note to Hawg: when people disregrard your soft-headed “theories”.. When people dismiss your opinions because they think you have poor judgement.. Trash like this is the reason why.

I am with you on the issue about WMD’s Les

Include me out on that.  Hussein was a brutal dictator on par with Adolf Hitler.  He’s in prison now.  Fuck WMD’s, bringing them into the discussion in the first place was never a good idea.

Can they obtain valid DNA results this quickly now? The last I heard it still took weeks.

Depends what you want, how badly you want it, and what you have to work with.  My wife does DNA analysis from time to time (she works for Harvard Med School).  With a good sample, the gels only take 4-6 hours to complete.  On the other hand, if you’re working from a dried up drop of blood or a bone fragment, you will have to take the tiny DNA sample and replicate it in order to obtain a large enough sample.  This takes much longer.  And of course, if you’re just sending it to the state crime lab, who knows when they’ll get around to it.

I seem to recall the blood they found in that guy’s car was matched to Dru Sjodin the very next day.  I guess CNN cameras tend to bump a sample to the front of the line.

Sadam was hiding in the wrong place. With a shopping cart and a couple of garbage bags full of cans and bottles, he could have wandered around DC without ever being found.

Let today be known as “Saddam Day”

Wow, Saddam with a big beard, whack a turban on his head and you got Osama as well.

Oh please. This crap holds about as much water as an ignorant Palestinian thinking everything is an “Israeli Conspiracy”. An attitude encouraged by the kleptocratic dictatorships of the Middle East because it distracts people from the ineptitude of their own governments.

Daryl I am sorry if you find the comments of my entry dissatisfactory for you taste. ( then again the proper place would have been to respond there to it) Then again I guess anything taken out of context could be displeasing if one so chooses.  As I stated previous to the comment I was sharing my initial reaction to this newfound news. How nice it is that Bush completed an unavailing mission to his father. Not many former presidents have the privilege of their sons coming in to office to correct their inauspicious timing.

Note to HawQ: when people disregrard your soft-headed “theories”.. When people dismiss your opinions because they think you have poor judgement.. why.

So that is what one’s opinion is being called now and days. I can understand the error of insight combine with the lack of knowing me personally bringing you to find my opinion as “soft headed theories”. I am puzzled though why my stating I agree with another’s statement:

Now, if they can just track down those pesky WOMD I’d have little to complain about.

is considered poor judgment?  For the WOMD and terrorism was the whole pretense of going in there.

Hussein was a brutal dictator on par with Adolf Hitler. He’s in prison now. Fuck WMD’s, bringing them into the discussion in the first place was never a good idea.

Yes Saddam was a very cruel man and deserves what is coming his way. Half of what was intending to be uncovered from this first wave of the war has been found now- Saddam. What about the other half, those weapons of mass destruction that Bush spoke and pushed as his backbone for going into Iraq to fight the War on Terrorism?  So one out of two is better then fulfilling one’s goals and promises?

makes me think something is up?

So now that Bush has received retribution on behalf of his family, how about remaining focused and seeking the same for those he also represents. Those who seek the same justice done for their families. Whom have sat patiently (others not so patiently) waiting for Bush to complete his feeling of duty in hopes that he would do the same for them.  Continuing the hunt on terrorism that is close to their hearts and has ultimately changed their lives.  Will Bush continue onward focus of the “War on Terror” or put all his focus in the “goods” of Iraq for the remainder of his term? This is what causes me to think something is up. Of course it is speculation yet again my personal opinion.

All of what I say is my opinion. I will admit I am not well versed in politics, but being American I like to believe that free speech allows me to express my opinions to the best of my knowledge. Even if that means speaking my initial reaction or speaking simply. Not all of us have eloquent backgrounds, nor wish to belittle or be belittled by those the wiser but we do still have a voice.

I apologize Les if my novel of a comment is out of line.  Seems your blog is an ideal place for people to remark to other’s statements elsewhere rather then choosing to respond where the comments are coming from.

You posted the comments here, wherever else they might be posted.  So don’t get snippy about me responding here.  And Les’ Place has always been a forum for lively discussion; if it weren’t I wouldn’t have kept logging in for the past 17 or 18 years.

Yes Saddam was a very cruel man and deserves what is coming his way… What about the other half, those weapons of mass destruction?

Well, like I said on SEB six months ago (look here), the whole WMD issue was a serious misstep by the Bush camp.  If they had just said in the first place, “That bastard Saddam needs to go,” they wouldn’t get asked all sorts of uncomfortable questions about WMD.  If they happenned to find some nerve gas or anthrax, even better!  It would have brought even the French and Germans on board, if only to help clean up.

But no matter.  With or without WMD’s, the mission is one I can support.  This country has been blessed with both democracy and military strength.  It is our responsibility to use that strength whenever and wherever practical, to advance the causes of democracy and personal rights.  I believe this for religious reasons, but plenty of atheists think the same thing.

Of course, one of the reasons I dislike Bush and his cadre is that they Blitzkreig thru Iraq while ignoring the dictators in Syria, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc.  Still, half a loaf is better than none at all.  My hope is that a democratic Iraq can become a thorn in the side of despots throughout the mideast.  The “West Berlin” effect, if you will.  It’s a long shot, but this country must be willing to shoulder the burden (both human and financial).

Daryl I thank you for the clarification. I apologize if I came across as snippy, it was not my intention. I tend to stay reserved in political issues due to the fact one they can become confusing and two it isn’t like I can really do anything to change them.  This being one of first times actually sharing my opinions outside of friends and family. I allowed my emotion to take your remarks as a personal beating and belittling to my opinions bring out the defensive side me. Though with you less smug remarks this time around, I can see from your point of view, though I may not completely agree I can recognize where you are coming from.

I can relate to disliking Bush in the fact I feel his focus is narrow and personal rather on the larger picture which you gave an example of such.

I am still fairly new to SEB so I haven’t had the time to get that far back in the entries. Pardon me for such. Nor was I aware of how open discussion it is thus my apology for I mean not disrespect. I find this place both intriguing and interesting where I feel I could learn much. Looking forward to doing so regardless of the stumbles I may make on the way.

Wow. I hadn’t heard of a spider-hole before yesterday. Is it possible that Saddam was tricked by some conservative double agent? Perhaps a liberal double agent?  I’ll bet they’re all liars… A non-vote is a vote for ANARCHY!

Hawq, you’re more than welcome to post your opinions here whatever the length. I don’t wish to be the only long-winded person in the comments. Daryl’s reference to Les’s Place is in regards to an old BBS system I used to run a long time ago before the Internet had gone mainstream or most of us even knew what it was. Hard to believe it’s been almost 20 years since I first set that thing up. SEB doesn’t stretch back that far.

Daryl’s initial comment was a bit snippy, but try not to take it too personally. He and I get snippy with each other from time to time and yet we’ve been friends for a long time. Truth is I like to see multiple viewpoints represented here and I don’t favor any one person’s input over any other’s. As always I appreciate everyone’s contribution.

Thanks Les.

Makes me Feel like a young whipper snapper when you talk about your “begining”. Which my inexperience tends to cloud my judgement/presentation of thus but I am trying to learn.

This country has been blessed with both democracy and military strength. It is our responsibility to use that strength whenever and wherever practical, to advance the causes of democracy and personal rights.

Now maybe I am being a little picky here, but to say that we have been blessed with Democracy is a little like saying that it dropped from the sky like mana from heaven. I could be wrong but I think that the personal rights that you believe we should be “advancing” in other countries was a process that took America very long time to realize even in its current state. How long before ‘All men are created equal’ began to apply to black men and how long before women were considered more than property and given the right to vote? How long until gay marriage will be recognized? If we haven’t got it all ironed out yet what then gives us the right to force it upon Iraq for example? Some of us who love this country do not have a might makes right attitude and do NOT feel that it is our duty to convert the rest of the world to our way of thinking, maybe we could focus on perfecting our own Democracy before peddling it as a panacea.

Saddam was a monster to be sure but never forget that in order to invade his country our president fed us the lie of Weapons of Mass Destruction and on that flimsy pretext we went to war. Bush tried to tie Saddam to Osama and paint him with the 9/11 brush because, really, we had no justification for our little preemptive strike on Iraq (but if Saddam was involved in 9/11 we would have). Do you know how many other dictators and despots there are in the world right now? If your goal is to overthrow them all then I applaud your grandiose vision but the American taxpayer can’t afford that much debt (I suppose though that you are helping us shoulder the burden by sending your paycheck to support the war machine?). I figure we can afford to topple one more dictator, maybe two tops before economic collapse destroys us, and no amount of tax cuts for rich industrialists will save us. but keep throwing those bodies and dollars at that long shot, the odds might be a million to one but imagine the jackpot.

The dictator we ought to be focusing on is our own Connecticut born Texas transplanted little Hitler. The man couldn’t manage a baseball team and you think he can end terrorism? You two haven’t been doing lines together have you?

I’m sorry as a left wing-nut and Canadian to boot, I can’t let the failer to find the WMD slide.  I agree with Daryl thet it was a dumb mistake that Bush’s handlers should have stopped.  “They could have gone in just on the whole he’s a sadistic Dictator who kills and tortures those who oppose his views” bit, but they had to play the WMD card and are now suffering for it, not a lot of suffering.. just a little… but still.  I’m glad he was taken out of power, don’t get me wrong, but I think there are alot of other things in this world more important to spend money, time & lives on (American or otherwise)… the masseers in Africa as a result of tribal fighting and power mongering, heck even problems within the US itself.. gasp! ...

Christien Lomax, I agree with your point, but I’d like to revise your opening a little bit.  You essentially start off with a disclaimer (identifying your self as a leftist Canadian), and saying that because of that you cannot let the failure to find WMDs slide.

Dare I suggest that partisanship, ideologies, nationality, and whatever else should have nothing to do with letting the WMDs slide.  Anybody, regardless of ideology, who is rational and consistent and has a brain should not let it slide.  The administration made claims that have been shown to be quite dubious at best.  Even conservatives should be pissed off (hell, conservatives should be *especially* pissed off with the current administration, real conservatives at least, those who believe in fiscal responsibility and avoiding international intervention… the current administration is only conservative in terms of social policy, e.g. morality, it seems).

How long before ‘All men are created equal’ began to apply to black men and how long before women were considered more than property

Oh Lord, here we go.  You know the loonies of the left are in the house when arguments like this get propped up in a lifelike position and thrown on stage.  “Our democracy isn’t perfect, so we shouldn’t try to help the Iraqis.” Great, an unbeatable recipe for paralysis.

Guess what: our democracy is never going to be perfect.  When we helped kick the Nazis’ and Imperial Japan’s ass, we still had segregated schools and Jim Crow laws.  I suppose we should have let the Axis annex a quarter of the planet while we got that sorted out?

Do you know how many other dictators and despots there are in the world right now?

I know there’s one less despot in the world than there was Saturday.  You say there’s a lot more work to be done?  Thanks for the heads up, but I can count.  Attitudes like yours aren’t going to get it done any faster, are they?

If your goal is to overthrow them all… the American taxpayer can’t afford that much debt

America is the strongest nation in the history of the world—by a wide margin.  We can fight an Iraq-sized conflict continuously without even breaking stride.  In close to a year, less than 500 american soldiers have died in Iraq—about half due to “hostile action”.  Compare to the 1,000 people who die every week in traffic accidents, and it’s obvious the “human cost” could be borne indefinitely.

As far as what the U.S. could accomplish if it really needed to—i.e., mobilization on the scale of WWII—well, I can’t even imagine.

(I suppose though that you are helping us shoulder the burden by sending your paycheck to support the war machine?).

Well, yes, as a matter of fact.  It’s right there coded “W-2 FED WTHLD/1”.  My primary complaint with the Bush administration is that he’s not taking enough money from the wealthy to pay for his war.  But having the war is the right thing to do.

Well you know the right wing nutters are in the house when the first and only plan they consider consists of escalating body counts and deficit spending. There’s also nothing like a war to show you the true colors of the self-proclaimed “religious” who at their leaders clarion call will put their Christian peace and love on hold and pick up the old testament eye for an eye (Hammurabi’s code). How quickly Christian ideals fly out the window when there are possible conversions afoot. Don’t like my pointing out that Democracy isn’t perfect? Then spend the time, money, and effort fixing it HERE instead of foisting it on countries that are not interested in it. Your ranting is that of an imperialist looking to homogenize the planet so our “enemies” can all be harmless little mirror images of ourselves. What the fuck are you...Borg?

Your comparison of the Nazi war machine to Saddam’s despotic aspirations are critically flawed, what other countries have been invaded by the mighty juggernaut Iraq (save Kuwait with a population of about 1.8 million people which is roughly twice that of Detroit)? Yeah, Iraq is really a threat on par with Nazi Germany, come back to reality.

It might be noted that the American public had NO intention of entering WWII until after we were attacked by the Japanese and with the exception of some manufactured “proof” by the administration of Saddam’s complicity in 9/11 we had no reason to attack Iraq. You really have a testosterone imbalance or a rage issue you need to get treated before you and other myopic hotheads like you rush this country blindly into war after war after war. Did you run around pummeling kids on the playground because you were bigger than them and you could? Do you actually take the time to think BEFORE you act? We are strong so America smash, we smash bad country because we are good country, we smash bad country until it is good country.

And who cares if ONLY 500 American soldiers have died in this war, the benefits we have realized would be worth it at ten times the cost to human life...just as long as it’s not yours Darryl? They are just numbers to you aren’t they? Little green plastic soldiers in your big sandbox of American idealism, who cares if they all die? We can make more, we are rich and powerful.

Your contribution to the war effort humbles me, you give the same as everyone else (unless you haven’t given a life yet). The way you cheer-lead for Armageddon I would think that all of your pay would be going toward world domination. My Grandfather used to send what he could afford each year to the government to help pay down the national debt because he thought it was his duty, you aren’t doing that for the War on Terror? No, I suppose you are not. It’s up to ALL of us to feed our tax money to the war effort because we ALL believe that this unending bloodshed is good for the world. Well, it is good for Halliburton at least, good for American business interests, and good for an inept president coming up to the 2004 elections. You go ahead and get behind Bush and his criminal cadre and push…

I will be just up ahead setting up roadblock after roadblock.

Ah, where to start?  I suppose the “Eric Paulsens” of the world would say that your misconceptions are so numerous, there’s no point even making a start at debunking them.  But the Daryl Cantrells of the world toil on.

Don’t like my pointing out that Democracy isn’t perfect? Then spend the time, money, and effort fixing it HERE instead of foisting it on countries that are not interested in it.

Iraqis aren’t interested in democracy?  How strange.  Who would have thought that the Arab character was somehow different than that of free people all over the world.  I was under the impression that all human beings aspired to freedom, self-governance, and the protection of individual liberties.  Thank you for correcting me; in the future I will advocate keeping democracy to ourselves instead of “foisting it” on populations who (in your world-view) prefer despotic murderers.

Your ranting is that of an imperialist looking to homogenize the planet [into] mirror images of ourselves.

Homogenize?  Yes, please.  I would like to “homogenize” the world into liberal democracies with constitutionally protected indivual rights.  My apologies.  I know that the left-wing battle cry is for every world-view to be co-equal with the rest.. What a bunch of crap.  Let me spell it out:

SECULAR DEMOCRACY IS THE ONLY VALID FORM OF GOVERNMENT

Iraq, Iran, Israel, China, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Liberia, Uzbekistan.. Not valid governments.  If a secular democracy decides it’s time to invade and/or depose such a dictatorship or theocracy, they should be applauded.  In fact, they have an obligation to free the populace from repression if possible.

It might be noted that the American public had NO intention of entering WWII until after we were attacked by the Japanese

Much to our shame.  Still, it’s likely that Stalingrad would have fallen without the tanks and ammunition provided by FDR under Lend-Lease.  The fight between Soviet Russia and Germany was an ethical wash, but we weren’t trying to “save” the Russians so much as the United Kingdom and Free France, and so our actions were admirable, so far as they went.  It would be nice if we had simply declared war on Germany, but at least we did the right thing in the end.  Fortunately with Iraq we didn’t feel constrained to wait.  Liberate the Iraqi people first and ask questions later.

Your comparison of the Nazi war machine to Saddam’s despotic aspirations are critically flawed, what other countries have been invaded by the mighty juggernaut Iraq

Did you forget a little eight-year war with Iran (over 1,500,000 killed), and border skirmishes with Turkey?

(save Kuwait with a population of about 1.8 million people which is roughly twice that of Detroit)? Yeah, Iraq is really a threat on par with Nazi Germany, come back to reality

I’m puzzled by your reference to Kuwait’s small population.  In my worldview, small countries like Kuwait are more deserving of protection than large, powerful countries.  How many people have to live in a country before it “counts”?

You are correct that Iraq was never a “threat” to the United States, which makes our war of liberation much more noble.  Hell, any country will go to war against a threat.  Going to war against a dictatorship which isn’t a direct threat to you?  That’s sacrifice.

The only mistake Bush Sr. made was bringing back the Emir of Kuwait instead of holding elections.  Of course, he did that out of craven fear of the other autocracies in the mideast.

Did you run around pummeling kids on the playground because you were bigger than them and you could?

I must admit: in my whole life that’s the first time someone’s said such a thing about me.  I think that Les can back me up when I say that I was, umm, “not physically imposing”.  For those not keeping score, here’s the end result of all this left-wing wackiness:

Americans free Iraqis, pay to rebuild Iraq out of their own pocket, and hold democratic elections = “PLAYGROUND BULLY”

Saddam Hussein kills 850,000 Iraqis because they represent a threat to his absolute dictatorship = “WEAK KID IN NEED OF PROTECTION”

You go ahead and get behind Bush and his criminal cadre and push…

Dude, up until this point I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.  But you really, truly are completely clueless, aren’t you?  Get behind Bush?  Do you even read?  WTF?

DC.

While I agree with you that secular democracy is the ideal governmental system, and should be promoted as such, I disagree with you on one particular issue.

Not all people yearn for secular democracy. 

And sometimes, even if you “give” them a secular democracy, by force, they’ll scrap it in favor of a dictator, a “strong leader,” or an elite priesthood.  Particularly if they, the electorate, is exposed to some sort of perceived threat.  Because Carlyle was basically right, and most people really do want to be led. . . sometimes they want it so badly that they don’t examine too carefully who’s leading them. 

Is this necessarily the case in Iraq?  Maybe time will prove me wrong.  I hope so.  It’ll be a tremendous blow to my ego, as I’m so very rarely wrong , but it’ll be better for the world.  A fair trade-off I’d say.  But I’m not holding my breath.

And because I don’t believe that democracy is going to “take root” and flourish in Iraq, I don’t support the war.  America has a long history of trying to “encourage” certain regimes (ironically, many of them were anything but democratic), and we also have a certain number of failures to our credit.  Expensive failures.  In more than monetary terms.  And sometimes idealistic fervor can be more dangerous than cynical realism.  (See, I’ve read my Ibsen and Chekhov too-- I must be right!)

But I digress.  From your perspective, supporting the war makes perfect sense.  But your perspective is based on the idea that it is likely that America will succeed in this endeavor.  I simply look at our past excursions and come to a completely different conclusion.

I really hope that I’m the one that’s wrong. :twocents:

Success or failure in Iraq isn’t just up to the U.S. , but also the Iraqi people. WW2 took 3 dictatorships and created 3 democracies (they are Germany, Italy, and Japan in case anyone doesn’t know history). That was partly because the U.S. invested heavily in creating a good foundation, but more important was the desire of the people of those nations to be free. It doesn’t take all of the people, but it does take a fair portion willing to put in the effort. If the Iraqi people are willing, they will be free, it is up to them, and all we can do is support them to our fullest.

The U.S. effort in WW2 was vindicated because the people liberated wanted to be free. Vietnam failed because the majority of the people saw no difference between the competing sides (they were the losers no matter which side won). I think Korea was worthwhile because we have a free and democratic South Korea today, and the people of that nation deserve the freedom they have. Bosnia isn’t fully settled yet, it has been 5 years and the peacekeeping force is still there. Our support of the Afghan people against the Soviets was a failure because once the war ended we bailed out and left them to fend for themselves.

At this point I am not willing to say whether Iraq was worthwhile, only time will tell, but I am optimistic. But regardless of whether you supported the war or not, we are now obligated to help them to our fullest. I also think that Germany, France, and Russia need to set aside their differences with the U.S. and help the Iraqi people. The current situation feels alot like bickering parents that take it out on their children. The Iraqi’s aren’t responsible for the disagreement, and they shouldn’t be punished for it either.

The problem we have here in the U.S. is that no matter which party is in control of the Presidency, they both seem to be able to get us into loosing situations.

I think the critical difference between the situations of World War II and this stupid mess is that the imperialistic dictators of those countries were taken out of power AFTER they decided to get themselves in a huge mess by attempting world domination.  Not only were the dictators influential for a shorter period of time, but also they were overly ambitious and spending incredible amounts of resources for their irrational aspirations.

As for Daryl: You act as if the U.S. army is some big expensive Brookstone gadget that you can abuse any time you want to because you spent so much time saving up for it.  Yes, America has an incredibly powerful army, but that doesn’t negate the fact that we have no right to invade other countries without previous initiation from those we are attacking.  I’m definitely not trying to victimize Saddam Hussein, for he was a total asshole who killed a lot of people (to put it in simple terms).  But so is Kim Jung Il; in fact, he’s MUCH worse than Saddam ever was, AND he holds the very real threat of nuclear weapons.  He has them.  He SAYS he has them.

So here we are, looking at Iraq and North Korea.

Kim says (in a surely mocking and melodical childish tone): I GOT A NUCLEAR BOOOOMMMB!

And instead, we attack Saddam, who’s shaking his head like a frightened toddler, “NO SUH, NO, NO SUH, I AIN’T NEVER DUN THAT SUH.” Of course, he has blood all over his hands, but no uranium or anthrax.

And somehow, after all the suffering that the North Koreans have gone through (and are CURRENTLY going through), you think that we are more justified to attack a country that denies its questionable possession of WMD’s for the sake of “democracy”.

Secular democracy?  It’s looking more and more like an imperial republic to me.

And take it from me; we have no responsibility whatsoever to impose our government on other people, lest we should consider ourselves codependents of those who are being pushed around.  Nowiser’s right; there are people in America who enjoy being pushed around all the time.  They’re CHRISTIANS! MORMONS! JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES!  And they’re in abundance!  And what’s more convincing is the fact some of them couldn’t hold a candle to the Muslim extremist groups that are becoming ever more popular over there.  If I can’t convince a Christian that there is no God, how on earth could I convince an Iraqi that democracy is right, especially when our “president” wasn’t even elected by half the country and they’re making rules against our own freedom and independence in favor of “security” (see the Patriot Act for more details)?  Notice I didn’t mention the Religious Right, who (being major supporters of the war for the purpose of Christ’s holy word - watch the Trinity Broadcasting Network or the 700 Club) is continuously trying to make our country nationally Christian.

I think that Atheism or Agnosticism are two superior forms of thought over monotheists (and polytheists, for that matter), because quite frankly, the only way you could become independent and self-controlled is by realizing there’s no outside force governing your actions and the world.  Think about it!  If there was no religion, people could discover, through science, all the questions that plague us today!  We could cure diseases through stem cell research without being thought of as satanic baby-murderers!  We would have no more religious segregation!

But you know what?  I can’t do anything about that, and I know it.  If religion never existed, sure, we’d be better off… but that’s purely in MY OPINION.  Am I supposed to kill off those who heavily believe in Christ or Yahweh or Allah?  Should I kill the Pope and bomb Mecca?  Should I persuade them to think my way after the pain and bewilderment of the loss of their culture, their lifestyle, and their leaders has worn off?

NO!

If I had the power to do so, would I?

NO!  And I’m not even factoring in the amount of soldiers, resources, and civilian lives that would be needed to achieve such a monstrosity.  Dictators have achieved a deistic, unquestionable control over the countries they preside over, because those countries had been living in those conditions for a very long period of time.  Pre-WWII Berlin was the spectacular cultural center of Europe, besides Paris.  Also adding against Hitler and his regime were the scars of the previous war: disabled veterans littering the streets and the deteriorating German airship industry.

What we did to Iraq was the equivalent of attacking Germany a decade or so after WWI.  And despite the fact that Germany WAS violating post-war restrictions placed on them before they started attacking other countries, Iraq DID NOT have any weapons of mass destruction.  We didn’t have the forethought with Iraq that we did with Germany - the Kaiser was taken out of power after the war, but we kept Saddam in there.  And instead, because we didn’t kill Saddam in the first war, we tried to take him out of power in a second, unjustified war.  The people of the country are not going to accept a culture that considers the genders equal, either.

There is a definite rift between the American and Middle East cultures.  In contrast, Europe and America during WWII were fairly similar to each other.  This is why some people of this country could think that this “righteous fight for democracy” is simply a racist ploy for Western superiority.  DUH.

So what I would suggest to Daryl is this:
Consider other viewpoints before trying to convince others of yours.  It’s much easier to persuade people that way (and believe me, my relationship with my parents is all the better due to that).  We’ll never be able to convince some people that democracy is superior to dictatorships, and we have to live with that.  This is why without Iraqi WMD’s, we had no right WHATSOEVER to attack them.  I certainly hope you don’t treat your neighbors this way; attacking them on the suspicion that the noises in their basements are efforts to plot against you is illegal in THIS country.  Even a 17-year-old kid would know that.