...but the Republicans may be responsible for the 9/11 Truth Movement.  That, I wouldn’t put past them.

...but the Republicans may be responsible for the 9/11 Truth Movement.  That, I wouldn’t put past them.

If we are going to get into conspiracy why don’t we cut out the intermediate steps and blame the Illumanti.  Lets be careful lest we give the intolerant Do-badders a reason to whine. To coin a phrase

Just the facts, ma’am, just the facts

A simple fact is that according to the White House a 757 slamed into the Pentagon.  757’s are over 100 feet tall (including the tail) and about 129 feet in length (including the wings), the Pentagon is about 75 feet tall, the hole created that day was about 45 feet in total height, sort of oval in shape.  Then the White House said there were little remains because most of the remnants of the aircraft melted in the fire that insued.  Surely this all strikes a question mark in anyone’s mind.

When jetliners crash at full speed, there is seldom much left, even if there is no fire.  The stresses of a 400mph+ crash exceed by several orders of magnitude the strength of the plane, and it shatters into many small pieces.  Hardly a surprise the White House got this one wrong, but it isn’t grounds for imagining a conspiracy. 

The Pentagon is an extremely sturdy building, BTW.

Low-speed crashes leave larger plane sections, and this is what people expect to see.

Well according to a vdeo where the FAA tested a 757 crashing into a reinforced concrete wall, while the jet was goin over 400 mph, the plane still had large chunks, many of them, and you could see the pieces of it and say, “Hey that was that part of the plane.” Much of the plane didn’t shatter. 
But regardless, when the plane crashed into the Pentagon, the nose would hit first, followed by the rest of the plane.  If you examine the videos of the planes hitting the WTC towers, there are not little holes in those buildings, there is almost an outline of the plane.  Why wouldn’t there be at least even the slightess sign of this in the Pentagon.  There is no visible damage from a wing hitting the Pentagon.  Yes there is a lot of fire damage, and windows shattered from the explosion, but where is the crumbling cement from a metal wing hitting the cement wall at over 400mph?

Well if I see even a faint spark of a huge rebellion starting then I will gladly stay & fight, but a couple million people wont do, there needs to be a massive ground swell of a minimum of 50-100 Million Americans mad as hell and demanding change.

The MSM needs to be taken over & steamrolled, currently they are nothing but a pure propaganda arm of the PNAC Neofascist.

As far as the Pentagon thing, that is really one of the very few points about 9/11 that really isn’t exactly provable one way or another, so I rarely even discuss it with anyone that needs proof that 9/11 was an inside job.
The original hole was actually about 16’ though there are signs it may have been up to 70-90’ wide, there was not a scratch on the lawn, there were 5 light poles taken out showing that something hit them and was only 20-25’ off the ground for about 1/2 a mile which would be aerodynamically improbable for a 757 to do traveling at 500MPH.

There is also no sign of the engines largely made up of Titanium and weighing over 6 tons each.
At least none that have ever been shown.
Why did the FBI confiscate all the video from cameras anywhere near the Pentagon? There are over a 100 cameras surrounding the pentagon yet all they release is 5 frames from 2 different cameras that show nothing? What happened to the Pentagons air defense able to shoot down any thing coming its way?
However there are eyewitnesses that claim they saw a passenger Jet hit, some that saw a small commuter plane hit, and even one that claims he saw a military helicopter come up and go back down.
So myself I see nothing “conclusive” that proves if a 757 DID or did NOT hit the Pentagon and personally to me it makes no difference.
It really doesn’t matter either way.

There is evidence that proves 9/11 was an inside job, plus the fact of tons of cumulative evidence that alone would be hard to explain & would be questionable if JUST that one thing was left unanswered, however once you add up the 100s of such questions it becomes obvious that there is a very clear cover up.

To me the video evidence of the 2 towers and WTC 7 collapsing along with the Scientific evidence and the Laws of Physics showing that was impossible are proof positive enough for me, the rest is just piled on to leave zero doubt.

Here are a few good videos if you are interested.

Who Killed John O’Neill?

Loose Change (Couple parts in Loose Change are disputable, however 90% is not)

Everybody’s gotta learn sometime

What’s the truth? (this one is good because it sticks to just the facts)

David Ray Griffin (this one is also good, just the facts and as presented on CSPAN BookTV)

Robert Newman History of Oil (this is a very good comedy routine that is both funny and scary)

These are but a very few of 100s of such videos.

The truth IS going to come out in spite of this utter Bullshit this so called mainstream Media tries to spread.

WTC towers have a glass outer apron.  Pentagon is a giant concrete brick.  Very different outcome.

How about the ValueJet crash in Florida?  Lower speed, yet hardly anything at all left of the plane.  Must be a conspiracy!!!

Actually, it was a conspiracy.  A bunch of Islamists led by our old friend (we helped him defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan) Osama, hijacked four planes.  I’d be looking for more in this except that nothing I’ve read or seen in the official reports contradicts what I know of plane crashes or building failures, which are two things that for some reason I have always found interesting enough to read extensively about.

Lame conspiracy theories really do help the current powers by derailing legitimate concerns.  The White House didn’t need to invent anything to come up with a rationale for war.  Hell, both parties have been cooking those up for years. The recipe is in the cabinet next to the sink.

Dont forget ReOpen9/11 There website is http://www.reopen911.org/

I’ve heard ill-informed Muslims say the Jews did it, but it’s pretty obvious who it was, and they weren’t Republicans.

And who would that be Zilch my friend?

a 6’5” dude sitting in a cave in Afghanistan dying of kidney failure?
You are aware I assume that Ossama Bin Laden was a CIA construct, trained and backed by the CIA.
His code name they gave him was “Tim Ossman”.

AlQeada meaning “The Base” was derived from the CIA’s “data-base” of drug lords.

Ossama bin Laden never admitted to being involved in 9/11 at all, he emphatically denied it just a week or so after 9/11.
The BS video allegedly “found” just lying around a house in Afghanistan was not only a fake but a really BAD one.
The person they show as Bin Laden hardly even looked like him, was much heavier, wearing a gold ring which a devout Wahabist never does and so forth.

Atta along with 4 other so called hijackers were trained at US military bases.
Several of the so called Hijackers are still alive today.

and just who benefited?

Clearly the Neofascist by far, this is exactly what they said they needed in their PNAC document, this was their “New Pearl Harbor”.

They may not be “Republicans” but they sure are Neofascist

Well if you have read extensively into this subject then surely you would know that engine fuel burns around 1900 degrees F (when it has adequate oxygen).  Steel melts at over 2000 degrees F.  The WTC towers are the only steel structures in history to collapse because of fire.  Meridian Plaza, in Philadelphia, burned for around 19 hours but it never collapsed.  The South tower collapsed only after 1 hour.

I’d be looking for more in this except that nothing I’ve read or seen in the official reports contradicts what I know of plane crashes or building failures, which are two things that for some reason I have always found interesting enough to read extensively about

.

LOL then you need to read some more if you think those buildings collapsed into their own footprints at close to Freefall speed all because of a low heat oxygen starved fire that never even came close to reaching the intense heat would have been needed to cause structural collapse and then turn most all of the concrete into talcum powder and magically shear off 47 massive steel columns into neat little 30’ sections.
Since you have read so much about building failures due to fire, maybe you can tell how many steel structures have ever collapsed due to fire prior to 9/11? not even at Freefall speed, just collapsed at all, even very slowly after burning for days and not just for 56 minutes.

One thing I have learned though over the last couple of years, once someone has made up their mind that something as crazy as the Governments Conspiracy theory makes sense to them then there is no reasoning with them nor changing their mind.

What I am surprised at though is hearing this type of blind faith BS from fellow Atheist.

Oh my - you take a nap and conspiracy theories abound.

Concerning the Pentagon hit, it’s a simple matter of physics, isn’t it?

A commercial aircraft is not built like a tank. Specifically, it’s a light-weight machine designed to stand up to the stresses it’s exposed to while flying, as opposed to a battering ram.

In case of a near-frontal impact, most of the non-volatile mass is concentrated in the hull, not the wings or the tail. When an airframe impacts a building hardened against direct attack, I would expect a hole roughly matching the cross-section of the body. My recollection of the footage shown of the impact site as seen of TV is consistent with this.

It’s hardly a surprise that an aircraft impacting a highrise that the WTC penetrates the thin outer skin and leaves a hole shaped like the plane’s silhouette, wings and all.

I believe the footage of the FAA test was shown on TV (or perhaps that of similar tests). I do not recall that this doomed aircraft was fully fuelled. An intense fire like, say, a full load of fuel for a commercial airliner, isn’t likely to leave much detritus. Dig up some footage on Google of people dumping LOX on a lit BBQ - if you put the bowl of the grill on the ground, it doesn’t take all that much LOX to leave nothing but a small crater.

As far as the wings at the Pentagon site are concerned, the wings and engines most likely got splattered against the Pentagon’s outer walls and burned up in the fire. Didn’t the nose impact the one section not yet revamped?

Not that it matters, but I happen to know somebody whose deployment to the Pentagon was botched and delayed for a few days - his office was to have been just a window or two away from the impact site.

It never ceases to amaze me how much credit people give governments to keep secrets.

DOF: How about the ValueJet crash in Florida?  Lower speed, yet hardly anything at all left of the plane.  Must be a conspiracy!!!

I was thinking of the same thing, but I couldn’t remember the name of the airline. Sure, that “crash” was staged by the Neocons to lay the foundation of the Pentagon hit.

Actually, it was a conspiracy.  A bunch of Islamists led by our old friend (we helped him defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan) Osama, hijacked four planes.

What DOF said. Come to think of it, that name has dropped off the radar of the media. Now there’s a conspiracy worth investigating. Why doesn’t the media keep up the pressure on Bush to catch that fucker?

Webs: The South tower collapsed only after 1 hour.

To state the obvious, it’s not necessary that the steel supports melted. It suffices that they weaken enough to fail their load-bearing function. As far as I know, the WTC was designed to take a direct hit by a smaller aircraft, although the extensive fire damage wasn’t anticipated. The towers survived long enough to evacuate, which all things considered means they did better than expected.

I also doubt that the Meridian Plaza was designed exactly like the WTC.

Nunya, we’ve had our disagreements in the past and I have to admit that you come across as batshit crazy as any fundie.

Why don’t you pull a Mythbuster and give us the engineering specs of how the WTC collapsed and the Pentagon fire was staged? Remember, even if we’re wrong, it’s up to you advance an alternative theory that explains all the observable fact and is commensurate with human nature? To use simple words: Let’s assume - for the sake of argument - that either event was staged. Exactly how did they do it?

So as soon as the wings hit the Pentagon they desinigrated into little particles that are unrecognizable from the TV footage of that day?

Nunya, Webs, does your interest in structural failures date back to, say, the 1970’s, and encompass a wide range of disasters?  Or did you learn most of what you know from 9/11 conspiracy sites?

Equally surprising to me is the credulity of otherwise intelligent people.  Yes, steel melts at around 2,500^of but it loses strength at 1,200^o.  (Why Buildings Stand Up, by Mario Salvadori, 1980, page 62) Did you think it would hold full strength until the moment it turns liquid enough for pouring from a crucible?

Steel buildings are built in different ways.  Most (smaller) buildings are a series of rectangular frames riveted together, and with the steel framework sprayed with a fireproofing material that is sufficient for fires that are driven by the contents of the building.  Suppose the fireproofing material were blown off by a fuel explosion/impact, and the fire were supplemented by a large amount of fuel?

Study the diagrams of how the WTC was constructed.  Ask yourself; what would happen if the horizontal supports began to buckle so as to put additional strain (percent deformation) on the joints to the outer apron?  Strain (as opposed to stress) weakens steel.  Those joints represent an engineering no-no: a single point of failure with no redundant load path.  Once they fail, the entire top section of the building becomes a hammer; lower floors (which shear off) won’t appreciably slow it down because it is a dynamic load far in excess of what they were ever intended to bear.

Blind faith would be; “I read the official version and believed it in spite of having no independent knowledge or comparing it to other sources.” You’re right about one thing, though: once someone has made up their mind that a crazy theory makes sense to them, they’ll filter out anything else.

To state the obvious, it’s not necessary that the steel supports melted. It suffices that they weaken enough to fail their load-bearing function.

What about in every other high rise fire to date.  All of those towers used steel support beams right?  Why no collapse?

the WTC was designed to take a direct hit by a smaller aircraft, although the extensive fire damage wasn’t anticipated.

It was a 707 I believe.

And the jet fuel would have burned out in about 10 minutes.  But regardless, if you watch the towers collapse, they look vaguely familiar to something…

So as soon as the wings hit the Pentagon they desinigrated into little particles that are unrecognizable from the TV footage of that day?

Yes, quite.  Think of them as aluminum bags of fuel, hitting a solid wall.

Webs: So as soon as the wings hit the Pentagon they desinigrated into little particles that are unrecognizable from the TV footage of that day?

The wings are thin metal sheeting, a few structural elements, fuel tanks, with engines suspended under them. My recollection is that it took a long time to get the fire under control and the footage was largely focused on the hole. I do not recall any footage giving close-ups of the building’s outer walls and the ground beneath after the fire was out.

Same challenge to you. Let’s assume it was a staged event. Exactly how did they do it? Punch a hole in the building, the fire? All in public view?

Or do you claim that the damage to the Pentagon was just video editing?

lower floors (which shear off) won’t appreciably slow it down because it is a dynamic load far in excess of what they were ever intended to bear.

Maybe the lower floors yes, but the first few floors would slow it down, maybe not much, but a little yes.  The rate at which the building fell was almost the maximum speed of gravity.

No I claim that the damage done to the Pentagon was not caused by a 757.  I would say it is more likely that a small aircraft or a missle caused the damage.  In either case, why would the FBI not release any videos that conclusively show what hit.  Hotel and gas station video cameras may actually show the truth.  If it was a 757, show us the video and prove the conspiracy theory wrong once and for all.

Dig up some footage on Google of people dumping LOX on a lit BBQ - if you put the bowl of the grill on the ground, it doesn’t take all that much LOX to leave nothing but a small crater.

Mmmmm… Lox!!

Yeah yeah, blah blah, heard it all before yet none of you naysayers ever actually answer a single question, EVER.
Like I said I could careless about if a 757 crashed into the Pentagon or not, makes ZERO difference to me.

Here are 12 questions that the families of the 9/11 victims have asked the Government.

1. Was NORAD aware of the four hijacked planes veering off course even before being reported by the FAA? If not, please explain why NORAD, which monitors 7000 flights a day, was unable to track the four aberrant flights.
2. At precisely what time was NORAD notified of each plane being hijacked? What was their response?

12. What defensive actions were ordered to protect our nation during the crisis?

Here are a few of my own.

Is it pure coincidence that FEMA was in New York on September 10? Why did they deny this fact?

How was it known that the World Trade Center was going to collapse? Why were only a select few told?

Where were the 2000°F infernos in the buildings?

Why didn’t firefighters in the impact area of WTC 2 report a blazing inferno or failing trusses before the building’s collapse?

Why did firefighters/Police/EMTs report bombs in the WTC buildings? Why did firefighters report many explosions before the collapses?

Why did white smoke appear at the base of WTC 1 roughly 10 seconds before its collapse?

Larry Silverstein said of WTC 7 “the smartest thing to do is pull it” (i.e. demolish it), and all evidence points to this occurring. When and why were demolition charges placed in the building?

Why was the investigation into the WTC collapses an underfunded farce?

How could conventional fires produce temperatures in excess of 1300°F in the WTC wreckage?

How could conventional fires in the WTC wreckage burn for three months?

Why didn’t jets intercept the airliners since they had numerous warnings of terrorist attacks?

Why did Ashcroft stop flying commercial airlines, citing an unidentified “threat” in July 2001?

Why didn’t the Secret Service hustle Dubya out of the classroom?

Why did George H.W. Bush meet bin Laden’s brother on 9/11 in a meeting at the Ritz Carlton?

How did Bush see the first plane crash on live camera?

Why was security meeting scheduled for 9/11 canceled by WTC management on 9/10?

How did they come up with the “culprits” so quickly?

How did they find the terrorist’s cars at the airports so quickly?

Why the strange pattern of debris from Flight 93? (It was scattered over 8 miles)

Why did the FBI in 1996 close the files to investigate Osama bin Laden’s relatives in Washington?

Why did .Bush stop inquiries into terrorist connections of the Bin Laden family in early 2001?

Who made the decision to have John O’Neill stop investigating AlQeada accounts?

Who gave the decision to give him a security job at the World Trade Center?

Why did none of the 19 hijackers appear on the passenger lists?

Why would devout Muslims frequent bars, drink alcoholic beverages snort Coke and leave their Qurans, just prior to martyring themselves?

How did a hijackers passport miraculously appear near the WTC? Who found it and what time?

Why did Atta leave his bag at the airport and the employees didn’t put it on board?

Why did Atta place a video “how to fly planes”, a uniform and his last will into his bag, knowing that he would commit suicide?

How did Hani Hanjour, a pilot who could barely fly a Cessna, handle a Boeing 757 with the expertise of a fighter pilot?

How was it possible for cell phone calls to come from Flight 93 which according to FAA records show it was mostly traveling at 30,000’ and 500mph?

How did WTC 7 collapse at freefall speed even though only a few small fires were burning and very little structural damage done to it?
Also why didn’t the buildings sprinkler systems put those small fires out before they spread?

I can go on & on.

The Official Government Conspiracy theory is so far fetched its pathetic and there is not a single shred of evidence that supports it.

I would say it is more likely that a small aircraft or a missle caused the damage.

That’s all you’ve got?

Here’s one, why did the South tower continue to collapse after the top broke off and fell onto building 4.

strength at 1,200o.

LOL and just how much steel do you think was subjected to heat of over 1200 for long enough for that steel to reach 1200?

500,000 tons of ASTEM119 steel in each building dissipating heat.

Very little if any.

The pancake theory is hilarious and IMPOSSIBLE especially when you factor in the speed of the collapse.
like I said you have made up your mind you are going to believe the official government conspiracy theory regardless how much evidence there is to the contrary and there is nothing anyone can say that will change that.

Oh well.

hopefully there are many many millions like myself that dont fall for impossible BS.