Definition of “marriage” has always been in flux.

Posted by Les on Friday, February 27, 2004 at 09:14 AM. Read 7734 times. Tags:
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C.W. Nevius of SFGate.com has a really good article on the uproar over gay marriages and how they supposedly threaten to undermine the “traditional definition of marriage” in this country. President Bush is quoted as saying “Marriage cannot be severed from its cultural, religious and natural roots without weakening the good influence of society,” and yet if you take a good look at the history of marriage it’s clear that such serverances have been many and varied throughout history.

Nevius points out that back during the early history of America (1700-1800s) a married woman gave up many of the “rights” she enjoyed as a single person upon taking her vows.  She could no longer own property or sign contracts and any money earned outside of the home had to be turned over to her husband. On the plus side, she didn’t have to pay taxes.  In many ways a married woman was the property of her husband and this didn’t change until the the latter-half of the 19th Century, but change it did.  Mixed race marriages weren’t legal in any state until California changed their laws in 1948 and it was 19 years more before the Supreme Court made it nation-wide. In many states it was still illegal for mixed race couples to marry until the year I was born (1967), but change it did. More interesting still is what you get when you look closely at just what the Bible suggests about marriage:

Marriage’s lineage a bit convoluted

“It is really much more complex in religious perspective than you might think,’’ says Tolbert, the George Atkinson Professor for Biblical Studies at the Pacific School of Religion. “What the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament) suggests as a general model for marriage is polygamy. You look at someone like Solomon who had 200 wives and 600-and-some concubines. Or Abraham, who had his first child by his wife’s slave. It sounds as if it was quite normal.’’

Tolbert, who is also the executive director for the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies in Religion and Ministry, points out that marriage didn’t even become a sacrament of the church “until the 12th century. For the first 1,200 years (A.D.) in Europe there were civil unions by town or village government.’’

Nor does the New Testament offer much help. In fact, by some selective readings it sounds as if the Bible has mixed views of marriage. As Tolbert says, Jesus says very little about marriage, and both he and Paul were single men. And Paul, at least, recommended chastity.

“Marriage is not a sin,’’ says Paul in First Corinthians, “but it is better to be unmarried.’’

“The Bible is an incredibly important sacred icon in our culture,’’ says Tolbert. “But I just think a lot of people don’t read it.’’

That not many people read the Bible they supposedly follow is obvious. I issued a challenge awhile back for anyone to list a single valid reason that wasn’t religious in nature as to why gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry and never got anyone to take me up on that challenge. That challenge still stands.

Comments:

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LuckyJohn19 Australia Posted on 10/27/2006 at 02:46 AM

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Don: Of what value are the Gays to society and to the village or state?

Probably as valuable as single hetro blokes like me who don’t want marriage or children.
Probably as valuable as my 89 year old father who remarried at 81 and doesn’t want any more kids.
Probably as valuable as many other examples I could think of if I could be bothered.
I’m sure someone else might choose to pick your comment to pieces - I’m not sure where you’re coming from. Then again, do I care?  wink

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Don United States Posted on 10/28/2006 at 02:06 AM

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You gave a good answer John, and I do admit I am carried away at times, perhaps a little extreme.

I guess me being somewhat extreme comes with my package, so I will be careful. I can acsept corrections.

The point being as you stated:

“I issued a challenge awhile back for anyone to list a single valid reason that wasn’t religious in nature as to why gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry…”

Don responded:

Oregon state law, in the Oregon constitution says that marriage is a civil contract, and that marriage is defined as one man to one woman of legal age,,,blah blah blah.

For simplicity of reference, See ORS 2005, this is online, use a Google search, and go to ORS2005.

Because in Ore. civil contracts are governed by common law in torts, where discrimination by religion, in particular are prohibited, also by race, then such a contract of civil union is NOT governed by any god, religious book, or theistic faith, but rather by state codified laws that has itd basis in contract Torts.

Torts are civil wrongs one to another clearly defined as offences to persons, offences against property, offences against animals, and offences in fair dealing one to an other in contract.

See old English common law. Torts are NOT statutes, but USA statuary laws have their grounding in Torts. In the USA we live under a dual system of Torts (that being civil) and Codified laws (statutes) that are derived from Torts.

Now Torts, and codified laws, in the USA are NOT based on a god, but rather have their basis on the “common reasonable man”, hence “common Law”.

In other words, it is not a GOD, or holy book, that gives validity to the “civil contract” we call marriage but rather the “authority of the state” for performance of the act, and enforcement, also for dissolution of the marriage and addressing the consequences of divorce.

Therefore, that answers your challenge, clearly and simply.

THE BIG PROBLEM:

Torts, Constitutions, USA federal statutes, ALL regulations, and State statutes cannot tolerate contradictions.

These souses of Law cannot say it OK to rape on Wednesday but NOT on Tuesday. LAW cannot say, that to discriminate by sex gender is good, and at the same time embrace Torts. USA LAW cannot say that females are less entitled to compensation in Tort than males. Alternatively, contracts are only good for males and NOT females. Can’t DO THAT!

So OREGON has a direct contradiction in their definition of marriage, the State discriminates by saying marriage is for a man and woman ONLY, but says marriage is a civil contract! Civil contract can NOT discriminate by sex!

This is a blatant contradiction and that is NOT tolerated in Torts NOR in statutory law.

There is only one-way to resolve this blatant contradiction i.e. same sex marriage must be allowed, as a civil contract as marriage is, to bring continuity to Torts and to statutory law. There is NO getting out of it. Not a chance in hell.

IN ADDITION, here is biggie:

By LAW a USA State MUST honor the laws of the other States. So IF EVEN ONE state says gays can marry, under the authority of that state, ALL other states must agree and enforce that civil contract, and they must do so by bringing continuity to state constitutions and statuary LAW, all based on Torts. THEREFORE, Oregon may NOT allow same sex marriage but still must honor the laws of states that do. As the marriage is valid in the state that the act is performed. The STATE being the final authority and NOT any god or holy book.

The final authority between states is the US Supreme Court, after that there is NO appeals.

Are you confused?

YEAH, Law is confusing but not that complicated. Law is on going and not stagnated. However, I think I made my point.

In time, all states will have to relent and allow same sex marriage, NO god needed. The authority of any marriage is from the state, NOT from a god. God, in marriage, has been reduced to a ritual of humans as validation to state law. Marriage is a civil contract. There is NO god authority in the USA, or in state laws and that is what marriage is based on “state laws”.

Don

LuckyJohn19 Australia Posted on 10/28/2006 at 04:42 AM

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Thanks, Don; I followed that with ease - not that I could repeat it. smile

why gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry

I either missed it or chose not to respond cos there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be allowed.

Marriage is a civil contract.

This is at the guts of the gay marriage issue although most extreme god-botherers everywhere are thoroughly convinced it’s a religious contract.
It’s fear that drives them; they try to justify their position with religion which, in itself, has no justification and therefore becomes another insane piece of circular logic.  wink

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Don United States Posted on 10/28/2006 at 06:54 AM

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Yes, John you are correct.

There is NO legal justification to not allow gays to marry, as marriage is a state sanctioned act of entering into a civil contract. All that needs to be worked out is the details.

John said:

This is at the guts of the gay marriage issue although most extreme god-botherers everywhere are thoroughly convinced it’s a religious contract.
It’s fear that drives them; they try to justify their position with religion which, in itself, has no justification and therefore becomes another insane piece of circular logic. 

Don:

To continue your point. No marriage is valid without a “licenses” from the state. Religious leaders, captains of boats, are only to witness the “oath” of marriage; that “oath” or “public witnessed” agreement, in itself consummates the marriage by state law, NOT any sex act.  Sex is NOT required to have a valid marriage by state law.

The marriage is unto the state as final authority. We think that marriage should be based on love, companionship, mutual advantages to each other, family life with children, and that is fine—but the state does not interpret marriage in that manor. Marriage to the state is very cut and dry, and avoids the emotional innuendoes. The State can also change the agreement to the parties any time it feels like it, and the parties have no say in the matter.

In Oregon, as with other states, the marriage contract is written for you. Therefore, you have yourself, your pardoner, and the Sate all involved in the agreement and the State has the final authority. You have three entities in the civil contract (marriage) or union. IF there is any dispute, the higher entity with authority WINS, that is the state, and the state will always guarantee its own best interest, and that IS NOT for the people involved, as the state will never give up its final authority. The state can NOT order you to “love” some one, it cannot be accomplished by mandate, law, nor enforced.

The state also recognizes “prenuptial agreements” as part of the civil contract of marriage, AS LONG AS, such contracts do NOT violate state laws, as with any other contract.

Gays already have all the rights they need in the full sense of any civil contract for a union including:  rights, distribution, and ownership of property, inheritance, combining of resources, authority of one over the other in case of illness or incapacitation, organ donation, medical needs, life needs, and so much more, if they care to enact a civil contract. In such a civil union contract just include reasonable consequences for default, as in prenuptial agreements, sign it, have it notarized, and count it done, NO public oath required. 

What gays do not have is the title of “married”. Why bother? They are by far better off with a civil contract, each have more rights, a greater commitment to the relationship with clarity, have the same backing by the state for authority if needed, and easer to perform with less state involvement.

Don

Les United States Posted on 10/28/2006 at 11:10 AM

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Don writes…

This is so obvious; I dare not to even comment. If a state and federal laws say so (like China), then same sex marriage is out-lawed, then that is the way it is, no religions are necessary. To be simpler, as you know, if the village says screwing your own sex is bad, and you do it, then suffer the consequences. Therefore, your challenge has been met, dealt with, and laid to rest, no pun intended.

This does not answer my challenge in the least. It’s just an attempt at a deflection by not considering the reason behind the law to begin with. All laws should have good reasons behind their passing otherwise they’re just arbitrary decisions. All you’ve done is say, “The law says it’s not allowed so it’s not allowed.”

That doesn’t address the issue of why does the law say it’s not allowed? What was the reasoning behind passing the law in the first place? My challenge still stands.

Don United States Posted on 10/28/2006 at 12:56 PM

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Statutory Laws, (state and feds,) may or may not have good reasoning behind them, and the same goes for state and fed. Regulations.

But the fact is, law works by “might makes right”, the state is right. The statutory laws are right until either the law is removed or changed by legislative action, or a successful challenge in court as the law being “unconstitutional”.

Therefore, that is where the buck stops so speak. There is not any argument past what is statutory law. People must comply until the laws are changed, no exceptions. In statutory law, the power of the state forces compliance (police powers). NOT any god.

The authority in USA law goes back to the USA constitution, and as with states, the authority goes back to State constitution.

The States and feds get their authority from the “people”, that ratified the constitution(s).

So the point being NO GOD, is involved in marriage, as marriage is statutory law that being a civil contract, backed by the authority of the state, and that is where the buck stops.

This is called “truth by authority”.  It is a real bitch, I know it, and certainly Copi would turnover in his grave against truth by authority as the “kings decree can not make the world flat”. Unfortunately, truth by authority is fact of life; just get a bigger gun, if you want to be right.

In the USA Laws, god has NO authority, neither does the bible or other holy books.

So I think this answers your challenge, if not please correct me.

I slapped this together trying to get out the door, I hope it readable.

Don

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 10/29/2006 at 09:06 PM

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Don: I slapped this together trying to get out the door, I hope it readable.

Well, I may be having a little trouble. If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that, because laws are created by people (and not “God"), laws--marriage laws in this case--are not issues of religion or arbitrated by “God.” You’re technically right, of course--laws are created by people, not some god. But do you truly believe that the vast majority of gay-marriage opponents do not have their ideological origins in religious beliefs? Haven’t you noticed that the very language employed by these people (i.e. “the sanctity of marriage") is rooted in conservative theological interpretations?

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Sadie Jane United States Posted on 10/29/2006 at 09:15 PM

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Double-dipping:

Don:What gays do not have is the title of “married”. Why bother? They are by far better off with a civil contract, each have more rights, a greater commitment to the relationship with clarity, have the same backing by the state for authority if needed, and easer to perform with less state involvement.

That is certainly an interesting point of view. In 1919, American women did not have the right to vote; why did they bother fighting for it? If they didn’t have suffrage rights before 1920, why would they need them in 1920 and beyond? The law said that they couldn’t vote, so the law must be right! And why did African-Americans fight for their civil rights in the 1950s and 1960s? Weren’t things going swimmingly for them prior to the Civil Rights era? If equal rights aren’t on the laws, who needs ‘em? And let’s not forget that at one time the laws very much condoned slavery.

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LuckyJohn19 Australia Posted on 10/30/2006 at 05:18 AM

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Don: They are by far better off with a civil contract, each have more rights, a greater commitment to the relationship with clarity, have the same backing by the state for authority if needed, and easer to perform with less state involvement.

I think you’re wrong in that they “are by far better off with a civil contract”. I’m no expert in marriage, let alone the US version, but I’m lead to believe that on completion of the marriage licence details and whatever the hell else happens, the two parties to that contract have various AUTOMATIC rights conferred on them.

Brandi on 2/19/04 at 01:53 PM wrote the following…
Here are a few of the 1,049 benefits the United States government provides to couples in a heterosexual marriage:

Assumption of Spouse’s Pension
Bereavement Leave
Immigration
Insurance Breaks
Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner
Sick Leave to Care for Partner
Social Security Survivor Benefits
Tax Breaks
Veteran’s Discounts
Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison

Here are a few of the state level benefits within the United States: 

Assumption of Spouse’s Pension
Automatic Inheritance
Automatic Housing Lease Transfer
Bereavement Leave
Burial Determination
Child Custody
Crime Victim’s Recovery Benefits
Divorce Protections
Domestic Violence Protection
Exemption from Property Tax on Partner’s Death
Immunity from Testifying Against Spouse
Insurance Breaks
Joint Adoption and Foster Care
Joint Bankruptcy
Joint Parenting (Insurance Coverage, School Records)
Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner
Certain Property Rights
Reduced Rate Memberships
Sick Leave to Care for Partner
Visitation of Partner’s Children
Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison
Wrongful Death (Loss of Consort) Benefits

And here’s another quote outlining a similar thing:

rudycat on 3/09/04 at 03:43 AM wrote the following…
In connection with the enactment of the Defence of Marriage Act, on 01/31/97, the General Accounting Office identified federal laws in which benefits, rights, and privileges are contingent on marital status.

The result is a collection of 1049 federal laws classified to the United States Code in which marital status is a factor.  To give readers a sense of the kinds of federal laws in which marital status is a factor, they classified the laws on the list into the following 13 categories:

Social Security and Related Programs,
Housing, and Food Stamps
Veterans’ Benefits
Taxation
Federal Civilian and Military Service Benefits
Employment Benefits and Related Laws
Immigration, Naturalization, and Aliens Indians
Trade, Commerce, and Intellectual Property
Financial Disclosure and Conflict of Interest
Crimes and Family Violence
Loans, Guarantees, and Payments in Agriculture
Federal Natural Resources and Related Laws
Miscellaneous Laws

A durable power of attorney just scratches the surface.

I somehow doubt ‘a civil contract’ would entitle one to all those benefits.
LOL I think I spent a coupla hours looking for those two references – I think I’ll turn on the box now.
As Travis McGee said: Television is a laxative for the mind; it flushes all thought away.  wink

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I’ve discovered that it all boils down to brain wiring: your brain is wired to worship magic or it isn’t, either it’s wired to utilize logic or it isn’t, either it’s analytical of myths or it isn’t.

Shelley Canada Posted on 10/30/2006 at 09:51 AM

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Gays already have all the rights they need in the full sense of any civil contract for a union including:  rights, distribution, and ownership of property, inheritance, combining of resources, authority of one over the other in case of illness or incapacitation, organ donation, medical needs, life needs, and so much more, if they care to enact a civil contract.

LuckyJohn did a great job of researching some of the benefits that marriage confers. In all, there are 1,138 statutory provisions in which marital status is a factor in determining federal rights and benefits. This is not inconsequential.

To that I would add the following considerations (see Herek, 2006):

1. Marriage is a deterrent to relationship dissolution. Yes, I know lots of marriages fail and people divorce, but marriage increases the barriers to relationship dissolution, and that increases relationship survival rates.

2. There are health and psychosocial benefits to marriage that are not conferred by mere cohabitation/civil unions.

3. A civil union/contract does not allow Americans to sponsor their non-American partner for immigration or citizenship.

4.  Are the children of same-sex partners helped or harmed by laws that prevent their parents from marrying?

5. Same-sex partners holding a civil contract do not receive the benefit of marital privilege during litigation. (Married partners cannot be compelled to testify against one another.)

6. While marriage is recognized across national and state borders, civil contracts and domestic partnerships may not be. In the event of an emergency outside of their home state, there’s no guarantee that partners will be treated as a couple/family.

In the end, there are lots of unique benefits that marriage conveys and I see no good reason for refusing same-sex couples access to these benefits.

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itdontmatter United States Posted on 10/30/2006 at 11:10 AM

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Gays already have all the rights they need in the full sense of any civil contract for a union including:  rights, distribution, and ownership of property, inheritance, combining of resources, authority of one over the other in case of illness or incapacitation, organ donation, medical needs, life needs, and so much more, if they care to enact a civil contract.

Don; You owe me a new keyboard, I splorfed coffee all over it.

Try telling the IRS that you have a contract that allows you to file a joint return.  Try telling the IRS that you have a contract that says that you don’t have to pay taxes on property that you inherit from your deceased partner.  Try telling the Social Security Adminstration or most pension administrators that you have a contract that allows you to get survivor benefits.  Try telling hospitals that you have a contract that allows you to see your dying partner.

In a few days, Virginia votes will be voting for a constitutional amendment that many people believe was specifically designed to prevent the use of these sorts of contracts by gay couples. 

Also, attorney fees for the sort of contracts that you suggest cost at least $2,000 for EACH partner.

itdontmatter United States Posted on 10/30/2006 at 02:47 PM

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Sayeth Don:

By LAW a USA State MUST honor the laws of the other States. So IF EVEN ONE state says gays can marry, under the authority of that state, ALL other states must agree and enforce that civil contract…

The Defense of Marriage Act disagrees: 

No State, territory, or possession of the United States, or Indian tribe, shall be required to give effect to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State, territory, possession, or tribe respecting a relationship between persons of the same sex that is treated as a marriage under the laws of such other State, territory, possession, or tribe, or a right or claim arising from such relationship.

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 10/30/2006 at 04:28 PM

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Don: By LAW a USA State MUST honor the laws of the other States. So IF EVEN ONE state says gays can marry, under the authority of that state, ALL other states must agree and enforce that civil contract…

Don, what country are you residing in? I wish that what you’ve written here was accurate, but sadly it is not. Then again, I think that every state should recognize same-sex marriage, but again this is unfortunately not the case.

You may want to brush up on your knowledge of the present situation regarding marriage benefits and state laws. There are countless places on the web to learn more about this issue. A particular favorite commentator of mine is Ed Brayton, of “Dispatches From the Culture Wars.” A few of his articles on the subject that you may find interesting are the following:

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/10/adfs_latest_on_gay_marriage_an.php
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/10/why_gay_marriage_matters_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/10/banning_partner_benefits_in_ke.php
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/10/adf_and_gay_marriage_amendment.php
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/09/judge_wilkinson_on_gay_marriag_1.php

These are just some of the writings of one man whom I regard as highly knowledgeable and quite objective. You can find countless other articles and writings from equally knowledgeable individuals if you search hard enough (I’d also recommend Eugene Volokh).

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Consigliere United States Posted on 10/30/2006 at 08:24 PM

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THE BIG PROBLEM:

Torts, Constitutions, USA federal statutes, ALL regulations, and State statutes cannot tolerate contradictions.

These souses of Law cannot say it OK to rape on Wednesday but NOT on Tuesday. LAW cannot say, that to discriminate by sex gender is good, and at the same time embrace Torts. USA LAW cannot say that females are less entitled to compensation in Tort than males. Alternatively, contracts are only good for males and NOT females. Can’t DO THAT!

So OREGON has a direct contradiction in their definition of marriage, the State discriminates by saying marriage is for a man and woman ONLY, but says marriage is a civil contract! Civil contract can NOT discriminate by sex!

This is a blatant contradiction and that is NOT tolerated in Torts NOR in statutory law.

There is only one-way to resolve this blatant contradiction i.e. same sex marriage must be allowed, as a civil contract as marriage is, to bring continuity to Torts and to statutory law. There is NO getting out of it. Not a chance in hell.

IN ADDITION, here is biggie:

By LAW a USA State MUST honor the laws of the other States. So IF EVEN ONE state says gays can marry, under the authority of that state, ALL other states must agree and enforce that civil contract, and they must do so by bringing continuity to state constitutions and statuary LAW, all based on Torts. THEREFORE, Oregon may NOT allow same sex marriage but still must honor the laws of states that do. As the marriage is valid in the state that the act is performed. The STATE being the final authority and NOT any god or holy book.

The final authority between states is the US Supreme Court, after that there is NO appeals.

Are you confused?

Yes, I am Don. I think it the writer, not the law that is confusing above though.

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Consigliere United States Posted on 10/30/2006 at 08:27 PM

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Double dipping to say this to Sadie:

Kudos for citing Volokh as a source.  There is hope for you yet!

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To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
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Sadie Jane United States Posted on 10/30/2006 at 09:10 PM

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Consi: Kudos for citing Volokh as a source.  There is hope for you yet!

Not so fast, boy!;-) I don’t always agree with Eugene on some issues, but his knowledge of the law is undeniably impressive. I figure that the Volokh Conspiracy might provide Don with a take on the gay marriage issue from a slightly different angle, especially since I can’t even begin to discern Don’s basic political viewpoints (or much of anything else based on his comments so far).

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LuckyJohn19 Australia Posted on 10/31/2006 at 03:44 AM

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Miss Sadie - or much of anything else based on his comments so far

Yeah, he’s got me a bit confused too (not hard, A, Consi ? ... kiss kiss?)
On the one hand he comes across as a fairly intelligent bloke who has a bit of an inkling as to what the law’s about ... on the other and he’s not too au fait about the realities of ...
I suppose, if he hangs around, he will expose himself. wink
One thing I have gleaned is that he’s not a theist; that can’t be all bad, A?  smile

Volokh Conspiracy might provide Don with a take on the gay marriage issue from a slightly different angle

I haven’t read any of Volokh’s stuff - do I need to investigate ‘other angles’?
Cut to the chase and cut the crap ... gay marriage is either a civil right or not - either we all (unconditionally) have rights before religious opinions or we don’t.
I say: Fuck all religionists! ... all except wise people like ***Dave.  smile
Too many beers - I should just hang up.
It’s one of the very few issues I get incensed about.  wink
Religious based shit is just that – shit.

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I’ve discovered that it all boils down to brain wiring: your brain is wired to worship magic or it isn’t, either it’s wired to utilize logic or it isn’t, either it’s analytical of myths or it isn’t.

Consigliere United States Posted on 10/31/2006 at 08:22 PM

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Fuck all religionists!

To quote MC Hammer: “You can’t touch this.” Sorry, just saying.
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To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Dons United States Posted on 11/01/2006 at 12:20 AM

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Ok, I’m home for a couple of days. But I just got in, so I need time to feed myself, sleep, and get rested for some very good conversations.

You guys are cool. I hope to add to what you have, and enjoy myself in the mean time.

Fast note:

I live in Oregon USA, I study law as my first love. I will ague marriage from a legal perspective for ONE reason, if you do not have authority for what you believe, you do not have Jack shit, and no greater authority than the laws of the land. Other than law for authority, you can join the other 6.5 billion people that think thoughts, most of what are meaningless.

But I love the common person as myself. It is on our backs that laws are made, created, and enforced.

Therefore, I will get back to you ASAP.

I see NO reason that gays of either sex should not marry as a sanctioned institution of the State. I am not gay, and I love the women most dearly in that kind of way. Each to their own and none of my business until it comes to LAW; then it becomes my business, and I have lots to say.

Final note for now:

My writing is accurate on marriage; substantiated by state statutes, substantiated by state regulations, by case law, by court order, by the police powers of the State, and the federal marshals when needed, including the National Gaurd-- with big guns and jets.

If you want to step into goulash land of emotions, I cannot go there with you. I get banned every time, thought I count myself a very loving person.  I will look at your references even if you do not look at mine. In my off time, do not expect error free legal memos.

Don

Consigliere United States Posted on 11/01/2006 at 02:42 AM

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In my off time, do not expect error free legal memos.

IF you are not capable of taking the time to write up an analysis you can stand by, don’t expect us to take the time to respond.

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To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Consigliere United States Posted on 11/01/2006 at 02:44 AM

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Dons:

This thread has a review of how all but 2 courts have addressed the subject.  http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/same_sex_marriage_reached_a_crescendo_in_the_courts/

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To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

LuckyJohn19 Australia Posted on 11/01/2006 at 04:23 AM

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Aw, Don - what are you doing to me?
Man, I gotta agree with Consi again!!
Damn!  smile

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I’ve discovered that it all boils down to brain wiring: your brain is wired to worship magic or it isn’t, either it’s wired to utilize logic or it isn’t, either it’s analytical of myths or it isn’t.

LuckyJohn19 Australia Posted on 11/01/2006 at 04:30 AM

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Consi: To quote MC Hammer: “You can’t touch this.”

I touch myself. wink

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I’ve discovered that it all boils down to brain wiring: your brain is wired to worship magic or it isn’t, either it’s wired to utilize logic or it isn’t, either it’s analytical of myths or it isn’t.

Don United States Posted on 11/01/2006 at 01:42 PM

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To clarify myself:

The sources of law in the USA are based on the USA constitution and the State constitution that you reside in. These are the grounding documents. These constitutions were ratified by the people, that vote for represenatives, that in turn made the constitutions in a representative republic government. We are NOT a
Democracy.

The USA constitution is backed up, augmented, or expanded by USA codes and regulations. Codes and Regulations are two separate documents. 

States also have Codes and Regulations.

As back up to codes (statutes), regulations, and the constitution there are case laws, or prior ruled on court cases for precedent. Case laws show us how to interpret the constitution, codes, and regulations.

The authority by what the state courts enforce their ruling come from assorted police powers in each state, and by the federal Marshals limited to the federal government. Occasionally the state or feds can call out the National Guard for enforcements of laws and or court rulings.

The point being in all of this, there is NO god that has authority. We are NOT a theocracy, we are a “Representative Republic”, human made, human created, and human controlled. The bible, holy books, and the many gods have NO authority in the USA.

The conflict when it comes to marriage between gays is very simple. State laws say that marriage is a civil contract. Civil contracts can NOT discriminate based on sexual gender. To discriminate by sexual gender in a civil contract is a violation of Constitutions, Regulations, and Codes backed up by case law, and enforced by police powers, the Federal Marshals, and the National Guard when (if) needed.

To solve this contradiction people make a claim in State Court. The claim that gays make is the contradiction in the state constitutions i.e. marriage is a civil contract, yet the state wants to violate its own constitution, codes and, regulations saying it is OK to discriminate by sexual gender in a civil contract.

It would be NO different if a man enters into a contract for delivery of goods and services with a lady, then the State null and voids that contract because a lady in involved.  OR the man (or lady) wants to void the contract for goods and services, and the reason being because of the other person’s gender. This is would be a violation of contract law, and civil procedures, BUT YET that is what states do. So we go to court for a ruling to get rid of the contradiction.

As reference in all this, we do not go to a god, we do not go to holy books, We do go to state constitutions, codes, and regulations backed up by case law.

Laws without authority are NOT laws at all. In the USA that authority is man made, man created and man enforced, NOT god, and not holy books and certainly NOT personal opinions.

That is the point. Anything out side of state/federal constitutions, codes, and regulations with case law support is NOT VALID law in the USA and IS NOT admissible in a court of law for rulings.

To turn over a legislative law, it is NOT an arguable point that god says the contrary in the bible. You will be laughed right out of court, and your argument would not be admissible and easily overturned.

With NO authority, you have nothing what so ever. You can strip and burn yourself alive wrapped in the American flag, sitting on pile of bibles for all the good it will do you and you would hardly make the news. As citizens of the state in which you reside, and collectively the USA, we are ruled (lorded over and forced behavior) by constitutions, codes (statutes), and regulations, with support from case law, not any bible god or holy books.

You may have an opinion, big stupid deal, who gives a flying crap, you are limited to one vote as your say, and after that, you can go to hell, as you have no authority. That is just the way life is in the USA. If you want authority in any dispute, you have to go to court.  You have appeals IF the appeal court will hear your case, and without a compelling reason other wise (as in disputed physical evidence) the ruling in appeal court(s) is based on constitutions, regulations, and codes, with previous case law as backing. The appeals stop at the State Supreme court or the US Supreme Court.

ALL laws in the USA have to be ratified by the state and/or federal legislative branch of governmental authority, signed by the governor of the state, or president, or congress (state/federal) over ruling the governor or president, by congressional vote, by passing the governor or president. This how laws are established.

When a conflict is found in constitutions, codes, and regulations by the court, the court can instruct the congress and governor/president to “do something different”, and congress governors and president MUST comply. The courts DO NOT make laws, but rather have the authority to enforce the laws by police powers, and force of arms if necessary. That authority is found in constitutions, as the courts are the third branch of legitimate power as mandated by constitutions.

NOWHERE is a god, nor holy books, to be found in this complicated USA system of controlling human behavior.

I can post a documented legal memo to back up ALL that I have said, but I doubt you would be interested and it would take up about 15 pages.

So the challenge has been met—what is the basis of NO gay marriage? State and federal law, for simplicity, is the basis and NOT any god or holy book.

Don

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 11/01/2006 at 03:15 PM

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Don: NOWHERE is a god, nor holy books, to be found in this complicated USA system of controlling human behavior.

That’s the idea, but it hasn’t exactly worked out in reality. What is behind the impetus for a law that restricts same-sex marriage? Religious belief (as well as bigotry).

If you want to step into goulash land of emotions, I cannot go there with you.

Huh?

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