Definition of “marriage” has always been in flux.

Posted by Les on Friday, February 27, 2004 at 09:14 AM. Read 8466 times. Tags:
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C.W. Nevius of SFGate.com has a really good article on the uproar over gay marriages and how they supposedly threaten to undermine the “traditional definition of marriage” in this country. President Bush is quoted as saying “Marriage cannot be severed from its cultural, religious and natural roots without weakening the good influence of society,“ and yet if you take a good look at the history of marriage it’s clear that such serverances have been many and varied throughout history.

Nevius points out that back during the early history of America (1700-1800s) a married woman gave up many of the “rights” she enjoyed as a single person upon taking her vows.  She could no longer own property or sign contracts and any money earned outside of the home had to be turned over to her husband. On the plus side, she didn’t have to pay taxes.  In many ways a married woman was the property of her husband and this didn’t change until the the latter-half of the 19th Century, but change it did.  Mixed race marriages weren’t legal in any state until California changed their laws in 1948 and it was 19 years more before the Supreme Court made it nation-wide. In many states it was still illegal for mixed race couples to marry until the year I was born (1967), but change it did. More interesting still is what you get when you look closely at just what the Bible suggests about marriage:

Marriage’s lineage a bit convoluted

“It is really much more complex in religious perspective than you might think,‘’ says Tolbert, the George Atkinson Professor for Biblical Studies at the Pacific School of Religion. “What the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament) suggests as a general model for marriage is polygamy. You look at someone like Solomon who had 200 wives and 600-and-some concubines. Or Abraham, who had his first child by his wife’s slave. It sounds as if it was quite normal.‘’

Tolbert, who is also the executive director for the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies in Religion and Ministry, points out that marriage didn’t even become a sacrament of the church “until the 12th century. For the first 1,200 years (A.D.) in Europe there were civil unions by town or village government.‘’

Nor does the New Testament offer much help. In fact, by some selective readings it sounds as if the Bible has mixed views of marriage. As Tolbert says, Jesus says very little about marriage, and both he and Paul were single men. And Paul, at least, recommended chastity.

“Marriage is not a sin,‘’ says Paul in First Corinthians, “but it is better to be unmarried.‘’

“The Bible is an incredibly important sacred icon in our culture,‘’ says Tolbert. “But I just think a lot of people don’t read it.‘’

That not many people read the Bible they supposedly follow is obvious. I issued a challenge awhile back for anyone to list a single valid reason that wasn’t religious in nature as to why gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry and never got anyone to take me up on that challenge. That challenge still stands.

Comments:

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Jon United States Posted on 11/26/2004 at 06:29 PM

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aside from religious theory here is my reason. in nature (which is where most “non religous” people look for what we come from) i challenge anyone to name one animal that will participat in homosexual activities.  if we are truely animals at heart and come from the monkeys, then why wouldnt we look to our ancestors for our moral ethics.  i have never gone to the zoo and seen and example of wild homosexuality. there is my reason like it or not

GeekMom United States Posted on 11/26/2004 at 06:39 PM

Trotsky United States Posted on 11/26/2004 at 06:50 PM

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Bruce Bagemihl when researching for the book “Biological Exuberance” found many homosexual animal pairings.

From a Time Magazine article about the book:

For a love that long dared not speak its name, animal homosexuality is
astonishingly common. Scouring zoological journals and conducting
extensive interviews with scientists, Bagemihl found same-sex pairings
documented in more than 450 different species. In a world teeming with
more than 1 million species, that may not seem like much. Animals,
however, can be surprisingly prim about when and under whose prying eye
they engage in sexual activity; as few as 2,000 species have thus been
observed closely enough to reveal their full range of coupling behavior.
Within such a small sampling, 450 represents more than 20%.

...

What struck Bagemihl most is those forms that go beyond mere sexual
gratification. Humboldt penguins may have homosexual unions that last six
years; male greylag geese may stay paired for 15 years—a lifetime
commitment when you’ve got the lifespan of a goose. Bears and some other
mammals may bring their young into homosexual unions, raising them with
their same-sex partner just as they would with a member of the opposite
sex.

nowiser United States Posted on 11/26/2004 at 09:44 PM

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i challenge anyone

Woohoo!  And we have a new Guinness speed record in the “challenge meeting” category!

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

ellie United States Posted on 11/30/2004 at 01:18 AM

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Considering how little empathy you seem to have for this situation, I think I can safely call you a homophobe.

Homophobe does not equal unsympathetic.  I can’t be called fearful of homless people when I have no empathy for them.  But GeekMom is right that I have trouble having empathy/sympathy for

being barred from visiting your spouse in the hospital because you’re not considered “immediate family.? It’s about not being allowed to direct your incapacitated spouse’s care ...not being able to leave your money to support the one person closest to you in the world.

for 2 reasons 1) I’m not too intelligent & I can easily worm my way around that 2) hmmmm….comparison to police dogs & hoses, not having the right to vote…

ellie United States Posted on 11/30/2004 at 01:36 AM

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BTW, what do y’all think of Tammy Bruce?

Brock United States Posted on 12/01/2004 at 02:10 AM

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Does the term “poser” mean anything to you?

Heh, heh. I can’t believe I just asked ellie that question!

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?“
Unknown

Megiddo United States Posted on 06/12/2006 at 07:17 AM

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The very first post on this subject by Les is missing alot. Les quoted a few bible verses but once again forgot to put in a few more lines explaining what was meant. 1 Cor 7:1-2 “Yes it is good to live a celibate life. But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman should have her own husband.“
1 Cor 7:7-9 “I wish everyone could get along without marrying, just as I do. But we are all not the same. God gives some the gift of marriage and to others he gives the gift of singleness. Now I say to those who arent married and to widows, its better to stay unmarried, just as I am. But if they can’t control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It’s better to marry than to burn with lust.“

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being single, as long as you can control yourselves. But that is Pauls point. Most of us cannot control ourselves.
Marriage is defined by God. One man one woman. Kids need motherly love and fatherly love. When one of those is missing, that kid is missing something that he or she should be getting on a daily basis.

Megiddo United States Posted on 06/12/2006 at 07:24 AM

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And if we came from monkeys, where are all the monkeys still turning into humans? Sorry guys but that theory is just dumb. Monkeys, please.

zilch Austria Posted on 06/12/2006 at 07:51 AM

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I’d heard rumors about the “why aren’t monkey still evolving into humans” argument, but I always thought it was just an atheist joke about fundie intelligence, or such a rare bird that it had long since gone extinct, with the flat earthers.  But here it is, in the flesh!  Call the Audubon Society!

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Les United States Posted on 06/12/2006 at 07:53 AM

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You’ve completely failed to address the point of the entry. Try again.

And if we came from monkeys, where are all the monkeys still turning into humans? Sorry guys but that theory is just dumb. Monkeys, please.

Way to demonstrate your ignorance yet again. Go study up on Evolution before you make a further ass out of yourself. Your rebuttal of evolution is the only dumb thing around here. It shows you know nothing about what you’re criticizing.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

Megiddo United States Posted on 06/12/2006 at 08:06 AM

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Evolution has not been proven. It is a scientific theory that people like to go by so they can validate the way they behave by comparing themselves to animals saying hey are just “animals”. I realize that this is your website and you have to make it look like you are the king know all around here but you dont realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

Les United States Posted on 06/12/2006 at 08:23 AM

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Care to demonstrate your ignorance further? All of science is theory, nothing is proven, all is subject to change if new data comes along that undermines an established theory. Evolution has as much data and evidence in support of it as Gravity does. It has nothing to do with morality and offers no insights into that topic either way. Only an idiot would think it did.

I realize that this is your website and you have to make it look like you are the king know all around here but you dont realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

Again with the arrogance. I’ve never claimed to know everything and I don’t feel any particular need to portray myself as such simply because this is my website. The only one around here claiming to have absolute knowledge is you.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

zilch Austria Posted on 06/12/2006 at 08:23 AM

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Boyhowdy, Megiddo sure knows how to put us in our place.  Here I was, thinking that evolution had been proven, and now I read, with fear and trembling,

Sorry guys but that theory is just dumb.

And to put the icing on the cake

Evolution has not been proven. It is a scientific theory that people like to go by so they can validate the way they behave by comparing themselves to animals saying hey are just “animals?.

My worldview is shattered.  Here I thought that evolution was a scientific theory, and now I find out that it’s just an excuse to behave like (excuse the expression) animals.  Thanks for showing us the light, Megiddo!

Now go away, and take Les’ advice: when you spout foolish nonsense about things you obviously know nothing about, you’re doing the Devil’s work, because you lower our respect for Christian “thinking”.  Probably at least ten or twenty people are going to become atheists and go to Hell because of you being so silly.  How are you going to answer to God for their souls?

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Megiddo United States Posted on 06/12/2006 at 08:30 AM

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I dont have absolute knowledge. I just know that evolution is a bunch of crap that you like to believe because you cant face the fact that there is a God who wants us to live a certain way and not the way of corrupt, immoral, sinful people with major faults and weaknesses. When you depend on human intelligence for reasoning, you are already losing because we are imperfect and sinful. You go ahead with that evolution stuff, see where it gets you.

zilch Austria Posted on 06/12/2006 at 08:39 AM

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I just know that evolution is a bunch of crap

You “just know” evolution is a bunch of crap?  A lot of scientists would pay good money to be able to “just know” whether a theory is a bunch of crap or not.  Usually, science doesn’t work this way: it takes hard work, dedication, and intelligence to learn something about the way the world works.  “Just knowing” something doesn’t cut it.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Les United States Posted on 06/12/2006 at 08:39 AM

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Megiddo writes…

I dont have absolute knowledge.

That much is obvious.

I just know that evolution is a bunch of crap that you like to believe because you cant face the fact that there is a God who wants us to live a certain way and not the way of corrupt, immoral, sinful people with major faults and weaknesses.

Again with the arrogance. Do not presume to dictate my motivations and beliefs to me. It just makes you look like a bigger dumbass each time you do it.

It’s clear you don’t have a clue what Evolution is or what the theory says. This makes anything you say about it nothing more than the gibbering of an idiot and worthy of no consideration whatsoever. You’re like the village idiot who believes he knows what he’s talking about, but is really doing little more than drooling on himself to the amusement of all around him.

When you depend on human intelligence for reasoning, you are already losing because we are imperfect and sinful. You go ahead with that evolution stuff, see where it gets you.

It’s certainly obvious that you’re not relying on any kind of reasoning at all. You’re a good little sheep and, like the real animal, about as stupid as they are too. If the true mark of a Christian is to be like sheep then you’ve obtained a pinnacle that few can manage.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

Megiddo United States Posted on 06/12/2006 at 08:47 AM

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It is funny to me that someone so against God would have a site that is primarily for people telling each other that God is bs. Sounds to me like you are searching buddy. Thats a good thing. If God is so irrelavant to your lives, why do you come to a website to discuss why you dont believe?

Les United States Posted on 06/12/2006 at 09:04 AM

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What’s funny is your constant attempts to presume to have a clue. The primary purpose of this website is for me to write about whatever I want to write about, not to tell each other that God is BS. I happen to think it’s BS, but that’s only part of what this website is for.

Care to demonstrate your complete lack of knowledge, but boundless arrogance again?

Sounds to me like you are searching buddy. Thats a good thing.

I’m always searching. That’s how I lost my belief in God(s) in the first place.

If God is so irrelavant to your lives, why do you come to a website to discuss why you dont believe?

God is only relevant in as much as they are dumbasses such as yourself who insist on trying to foist your delusions off onto the rest of us. One of the other things I write about on this site is dumbasses. Surely even you can see the obvious connection.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

zilch Austria Posted on 06/12/2006 at 09:22 AM

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It is funny to me that someone so against God would have a site that is primarily for people telling each other that God is bs. Sounds to me like you are searching buddy. Thats a good thing. If God is so irrelavant to your lives, why do you come to a website to discuss why you dont believe?

Megiddo- I know this was addressed to Les, and he answered it well, but maybe this will help you understand better where we’re coming from.  Are you “against” the Invisible Pink Unicorn?  Or “against” a cube that’s a sphere at the same time?  No, you simply don’t believe in such things.  We feel the same about God- He’s just an imaginary figure, like Santa but bigger.  And if no one believed in God, then He would indeed be irrelevant to our lives.  But people do believe, and sometimes make themselves relevant to us in ways we cannot avoid- such as pushing their superstitions about evolution on public school kids, or enshrining their bigotry in laws prohibiting gay marriage.

I don’t think any atheists here have anything against Christians who behave nicely; after all, we atheists try to behave nicely too.  Live and let live.  You are welcome to believe that evolution is crap and that homosexuality is evil.  But keep it to yourself.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Julian India Posted on 06/12/2006 at 10:52 AM

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It is a scientific theory that people like to go by so they can validate the way they behave by comparing themselves to animals saying hey are just “animals?.

How the fuck do you know anything about our motivations, beliefs or behaviour? You keep making assumptions about people you dont know and never respond when people call your crap.

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“I know you, Kingslayer, I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. “

Megiddo United States Posted on 06/12/2006 at 11:13 AM

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A bigot is someone who is winning a debate with a liberal.

Les United States Posted on 06/12/2006 at 11:42 AM

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Add self-deluded to your list of issues.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 06/12/2006 at 11:54 AM

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Megiddo: A bigot is someone who is winning a debate with a liberal.

I do believe that we’ve heard this whopper   before. Repeating it over and over again won’t make it true, Meg.

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Thinking is the best way to travel.

Don United States Posted on 10/26/2006 at 06:32 PM

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By Les:


That not many people read the Bible they supposedly follow is obvious. I issued a challenge awhile back for anyone to list a single valid reason that wasn’t religious in nature as to why gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry and never got anyone to take me up on that challenge. That challenge still stands.

Don responded:


This is so obvious; I dare not to even comment. If a state and federal laws say so (like China), then same sex marriage is out-lawed, then that is the way it is, no religions are necessary. To be simpler, as you know, if the village says screwing your own sex is bad, and you do it, then suffer the consequences. Therefore, your challenge has been met, dealt with, and laid to rest, no pun intended.


Now personally I don’t really care what you do behind closed doors as consenting adults, but don’t you think that kids should reach the age of maturity before some Priest grabs their ass?


The authority and power of the state is VALID, by either popular vote, or the King has all the guns or both. You forget that 99% of human existence is spent on controlling other humans, and us rebels die young, generally not laid at all, but only dream about it, much less have a family we can call our own.


The State owns all sex acts, and owns all children brought from that act, as a valid use of authority i.e.  Might makes Right.  Without the next generation of humans, the State (village) will stop existing so by States authority (backed up with guns), ALL young females WILL become “married” and pregnant and same sex gratification is out lawed and punishable as a diversion to the State’s (village) best interest of perpetual existence.


Bet me!


In addition, when human populations of the state get too massive, there is cure for that also. Haul in the abortion vans, herd in the women as animals by the tens of thousands if not millions,  yank the unborn from their womb in a bloody mess by force, and to the young married—stuff a gun in their mouth and say one child only or else! All is valid as Might makes Right, for the survival of the state, country, or village.


Bet me!

However, we rebels live on the fringes of society; we are neither accepted nor denied by the state.  We make our own addenda, and contest the Roman legions in gorilla warfare, or in voting.  At best, we rebels hope to recreate and be included in what we were never were apart of. In so doing, we just perpetuate a new state, with the afore mentioned standards. WE need viable females, NOT GAY’s for that objective.


It is a real bitch being a human, and if you do not conform, even the gods are against you, and the state rather see you dead than not have you pay taxes and duly compliant where even your orgasms are dictated. The state scarf’s up your children in propaganda for the slaughter. Is the Iraq war a better example, or do you need history for validation.


Therefore, I picked up your mantel Les, and I throw it back at your feet. Of what value are the Gays to society and to the village or state? They neither procreate for the states interest, but only live for their own satisfaction. What value are they? I will settle for a dollar amount as that is what our USA “courts of law” put on human life.


Pay the King his ransom, and you can have what ever you want, but the KING has to be captured first.


Don

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