Funny, I thought the goal of the Human Rights Campaign was to secure the protection of human rights throughout the world!  You know, since human rights is in the name!

Also: Ford?  Ford is a pretty conservative company, no?

I don’t feel like starting a topic on this simple question so I’ll post it here.  What do you base your system of ethics on?  What ethical system do you follow?  This isn’t a pointed question.  Are you a utilitarian?  If so what type?  Do the consequences you look for have a certain aim(eg happiness, pleasure, justice, freedom, etc.)?  Are you an egoist?  A deontologist?  Other?  Why or on what basis have you decided why certain things are or are not wrong?

I am a former member of the Roman Catholic church so their views are pretty much scarred into my brain. I do agree abortion needs to end, but not by making it illegal.

I hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men (and women) are created equally. My views on ethics are pretty much the same as most SEB readers.

My basis on what things are right and wrong are based on logic and common sense. We’re only human, though. No one person’s views are entirely correct.

Ford is a pretty conservative company, no?

Read the last line of the article.

What do you base your system of ethics on?  What ethical system do you follow?

It may not be that simple.  I can’t speak for the rest, but I don’t think I have an easily labeled ethical system.  Some of my beliefs tend to coincide with Taoism, but not all.  “An it harm no one, do what you will” is also a guideline I try to use, although I’m not Wiccan/pagan.  At times I’d like to just say something like I’m Taoist, or Hindu, or whatever.  But I do not, b/c I don’t believe in forcing myself to live in a particular box that I don’t fully fit into. 

If pressed, I’d probably go with Sub-Genius, just b/c I get to make up my own damn religion.   Essentially, Sub-Genius could be viewed as a “none of the above” answer, so don’t think that I’ve put myself in a box - more of a big sack.

Speaking of a “variable” container, another of my favored phrases getting through life is Clint Eastwood from “Heartbreak Ridge”: “Improvise, overcome, adapt”.

One cannot hold two contrary views simultaneously without rationalizing or justifying them so that they become complementary. To do otherwise causes a state of tension referred to as ‘cognitive dissonance’ in the psychological literature.

Consequently, I would say that the Christian Right refers to these events as a Culture “War” because while “at war” for a ‘just’ because it allows them to justify (“just-as—if-I’d-never-done”) all sorts of acts and words that are profoundly contrary to core “Christian”  values of love,  kindness, compassion, truth and so on. (Sound familiar Mr. Bush?) 

On the question of personal ethics (and a whole lot of other things), I would say that who I am (and who most of us are) is the result of a biology X social experiences interaction. Predisposed to social support and raised as an over-functioning first-born Catholic daughter, my first inclination is to care for others and be concerned about the consequences that my actions may have on others. Nothing mystical about it.

Dang, I hate it when I type faster than my brain thinks. That should be, “Consequently, I would say that the Christian Right refers to these events as a Culture “Warâ€? because while “at warâ€? for a ‘just’ cause, they can justify . . .“

P.S. Terribly proud of my Ford truck right now.

What do you base your system of ethics on?

Theo, the Balinese have a saying: “We have no art.  We just do the best we can”.

I say: I have no ethics.  I just do the best I can.

Arborary Vision Impaired… made me smile, but I think the Cranial-Rectal infarction may be a little more to the point, as these people have their heads firmly planted up their ***es. As for a system of belief, I’m a Stylistic. You know, “You are everything… and everything is you…“ Hey, at least you can dance to it!!!

Great post, Bo$$!  Everything that I have read agrees with your assertion that the ideological differences between the two poles of America are deepening.  What is somewhat ironic is that Bush claimed during his first term that he would be the “Great Unifier”, healing the rift, ad nauseum.  I haven’t seen this mentioned in any articles recently, just like so many of his political gaffes, it sank back down below the radar.  Whatever happened about Spygate?
  Theo, philosophically, I am an ethical emotivist.  In practice, Kant’s Categorical Imperative is a pretty accurate summation of how I comport myself.

TheBo$$: Sound crazy?

Yeah, pretty much.

TheBo$$: Keep eroding Church & State.. ..Launched by the American Family Assosciation, America’s newest hate group.

You’re aware that the American Family Association defends the rights of Wiccans and Satanists to worship without government interference, right?

You’re aware that they do this because like most Evangelicals, the last thing in the world they would ever want is for government to stick its big, clumsy mitts into the world of religion.  Right?

Here’s their most recent pronouncement about the separation of Church and State: “The parents have the right to raise their child in [the Wiccan] faith, just as I have the right to raise my child in the Christian faith.â€?  This is the “hate groupâ€? trying to usher in Theocracy?  Are you on crack?

TheBo$$: Peter the Great used his superpower in Russia to change its culture and westernize the country.

He sounds like quite the liberal.

We’ve had the same experience here in Massachusetts: One day we woke up with same-sex marriage crammed down our throats.  What the hell?  No public debate, no voting, no nothing.. Four unelected people walked down from Mount Sinai holding stone tablets, and that was the end of that.

Here is how wackos on the left see the world: Four unelected people impose their will on an entire state, inventing a new legal right out of whole cloth — that’s “democracyâ€?.  Conservatives react using ballot propositions which receive broad public support from voters — that’s “facismâ€?.

TheBo$$: Christians are getting libraries to practice censorship by banning books they don’t like (i.e, sexuality books that say Homosexuality is ok).

People on the left seem to think that Christianity is the driving force behind every conservative action item.  It’s puzzling to me, since I know plenty of conservatives who are not the slightest bit religious.

My father-in-law comes to mind: drifting somewhere between Agnosticism and Atheism, he is still perceptive enough to understand that homosexuality is an unhealthy lifestyle choice, that government handouts and safety nets promote poverty and ignorance, that without property rights democracy is impossible, etc.  It’s amusing to think of someone on the left calling him a “Bible-thumperâ€?.. I wonder if he’s ever owned a Bible?

You seem outraged that parents are taking an interest in what books their children read.  Maybe we should have books in school libraries that say polygamy is ok?  Or bestiality is ok?  Or that if your 44 year old piano teacher likes to touch you when Mom leaves the room, that’s ok?

Does Ford currently market any hybrid vehicles? I’m going to be in the market, I want to go hybrid, and this seems a fairly good reason to buy Ford (all other factors being roughly equal).

to understand that homosexuality is an unhealthy lifestyle choice

See? This is one of the bigest problems with religious conservatives and those who generally prefer personal ideology over research.

For the vast majority of people in the world, sexual orientation is not a choice!!! Do the research and look at the science. But wait—before you do that, go out and take several advanced statistics courses, courses in research methods, psychometry, biology, and critical thinking. Then you’ll be in a position to make a reasonable evaluation of the literature on sexual orientation.

And perhaps you’d like to share with us the story of your personal decision to become a heterosexual?

LM, Ford has one hybrid vehicle at the moment and that would be the Hybrid Escape. Haven’t heard much about how good or bad it is as I’m not a big fan of Ford products, but that’s just me.

DC said:

You seem outraged that parents are taking an interest in what books their children read.  Maybe we should have books in school libraries that say polygamy is ok?  Or bestiality is ok?  Or that if your 44 year old piano teacher likes to touch you when Mom leaves the room, that’s ok?

  Errr… at what point did he say anything about being outraged about parents taking an interest in what their children read?  I re-read his post to make sure that I hadn’t inadvertantly missed it, but still can’t find his “outrage” over parents knowing what their children read.  I think that was the point, people other than the parents are trying to determine what is best for your child.  Being exposed to an idea doesn’t equate espousing the idea.  In addition, your attempt to make a connection between homosexuality and bestiality and pedophilia ia asinine, disingenuous, and pathetic.  What consenting adults do between themselves is incomparable to an adult forcing himself on a child or an animal.  As for polygamy or polyandry (which you excluded for some reason), sure why not, as long as all parties involved are in agreement.  It has been practiced (and is still practiced) in some cultures.
  One of the (very) few valid points you made is that not all conservatives are Christians.  You even managed to bungle that point by turning around and calling liberals “wackos”.  The generalization that most conservatives (in America) are Christian probably holds true more often than most liberals are “wackos”.  Of course, it is hard to judge since “wacko” could mean anything.  For all we know, you might think that any person who doesn’t believe what you do is a “wacko”.  Before you climb back up on your soapbox, I do not really consider myself “conservative” or “liberal”.  Some of my views mesh with conservatives, some with liberals, and some with neither.  I view myself as a radical individualist.  Having said that, I do find that “liberals” tend to be mroe open-minded than conservatives and more willing to concede a point if they are shown valid logical arguments counter to their points.
  BTW, I think that you need to go polish your statue of McCarthy- it looks like it’s a little tarnished.

From Daryl Cantrell:

You’re aware that they do this because like most Evangelicals, the last thing in the world they would ever want is for government to stick its big, clumsy mitts into the world of religion.  Right?

Oh, so THAT explains why the streets here in the Beltway are filled with Evangelicals protesting “faith-based initiatives”! And why they universally condemned Judge Roy Moore for erecting a monument to the Ten Commandments in his courthouse! And why you always hear them saying that this should be a secular country, since the dollar bill has “Novus Ordo Seclorum” printed on it! Thanks for clearing that up, Daryl!!!!1!

Here is how wackos on the left see the world: Four unelected people impose their will on an entire state, inventing a new legal right out of whole cloth — that’s “democracyâ€?.  Conservatives react using ballot propositions which receive broad public support from voters — that’s “facismâ€?.

I concur! If only we could go back to the days when Americans could only marry within their own race, before activist judges created, whole cloth, a new legal right to miscegenate (against majority opinion, the bastards). And why, oh why don’t these gay commie pinko liberals understand that they’re lucky to have any rights at all, since apparently you can make anything illegal so long as 51% of the voters at a given time don’t like it?
 

You seem outraged that parents are taking an interest in what books their children read.  Maybe we should have books in school libraries that say polygamy is ok?  Or bestiality is ok?  Or that if your 44 year old piano teacher likes to touch you when Mom leaves the room, that’s ok?

Heaven forbid! Everyone knows parents are powerless to mold the opinions of their children when up against the overwhelming omnipotence of A BOOK. It is an eternal truism that the most important aspect of shaping young minds is restricting their access to particular information and opinions, not giving them a framework for interpreting and reacting appropriately to such input. Sidebar: Remember, the best way to keep kids from finding unsavory information is to constantly call attention to it by widely and vocally protesting it.
  And don’t forget, everyone: Gay Marriage = Polygamy = Bestiality = Pederasty ! There are no differences between them, and no reasons to consider the legality or morality of any one of them separate from the others,  because it’s JUST NOT POSSIBLE.

Or that if your 44 year old piano teacher likes to touch you when Mom leaves the room, that’s ok?

WHO TOLD YOU ABOUT THAT??!! *runs off crying* (Although, I did have a piano teacher a couple years ago who was around 44 years old, but he never touched me.)

Of course the AFA defends the Wiccans. It’s good PR.  Or Karma if they believe in that (which they probably think is satanic, because they are uneducated, and being stupid eventually leads to being hateful).

Daryl appears to be unable to think outside of his black and white box so I’m not sure how successful sarcasm is going to be with him, Ulfrekr.

We all know that anyone who is “perceptive enough to understand that homosexuality is an unhealthy lifestyle choice� can’t be bothered with contrary information and he certainly won’t accept that people like him are the reason why homosexuals feel put-upon and bothered from abusive and improper treatment.

People who think as Daryl does are common as dirt but that doesn’t make their views seasoned or informed. It’s easier to despise what you don’t understand and to call it unhealthy. Small-minded people use this option continuously. Deeper thinkers put themselves into the equation and consider how it would feel to be compared to an animal fucker. They leap the void of inexperience and realize that two consenting same-sex adults engaging in sexual activity is not the same thing as one partner consenting and the other barking or neighing.

I almost wish a well hung horse would force its horniness on a barking Daryl. Then he might realize that it’s unhealthy for another to control and use him without his implied consent.

Deny other’s rights if you want to Daryl. It’s rape no matter how you look at it.

Give Daryll more credit, guys. Most trolls just come in here and spew a bunch of bible verses and call us morons. At least he took the time to respond to each part of the article, instead of it as a whole.

Or maybe I’m going to easy on him?

No, Daryll is not a troll.  He’s an intelligent, though patriotic and bigoted, guy.  Some time ago I started a thread here just after the election entitled “Why are Americans so Stupid?“ and we heard a lot from him.  Hi Daryll, and welcome back!

I’ll just tackle one point here:

We’ve had the same experience here in Massachusetts: One day we woke up with same-sex marriage crammed down our throats.

I’ve heard of people having other things crammed down their throats, but same-sex marriage?  Did it hurt?  It must have stuck in your craw, or you wouldn’t be complaining.

Seriously- I wasn’t aware that the Massachussetts law made same-sex marriage mandatory, which I would oppose too.  But if you don’t want to marry a person of the same sex, don’t.  As far as I know, people in same-sex marriages are no more likely to become murderers, bank robbers, child molesters, or spammers than you or I.  If you know of any evidence to the contrary, show it.  If you can’t, then I would say it’s none of your business whom anyone else wants to marry.

This is a classical distinction between liberals and conservatives.  The liberal says: I live how I want to live, you live how you want to live.  The conservative says: I live how I want to live, you live how I want you to live.

This thread reminds me why CNN has mercifully cancled CrossFire:

The problem with this post is it places an extremist lens on contemporary US politics.  This is the same type of “end-o-times” rhetoric the RightWing uses to rally the masses, just injected with a secular flavor by the ConsumeristLeft.  It’s important to remember this:  American politics were a lot more radical, uncivil, polerized and verging on armed conflict in the 1890’s or very-much-so the 1960’s than they are today in 2005.  It’s important to remember these and other far more divisive eras in American history.

This thread is yet another example of political hyperventilating.

Seriously, count to 10, breath deeply, and then consider….
If you want to get upset, and really hyperventilate, about America’s future, don’t be misled by all these Consumerist Politicos (of Leftist or Rightist ilk).  There’s is just a momentary rhetorical campaign of this particular political-cycle.  Some of the *real issues* that should concern America:

[] America’s steel industry
[] Chinese defense spending
[] Nationalization of various East LA gangs
[] WhiteAmerica’s general inability to speak non-English languages

(Also, i *love* how people gleefully toss around “Troll!“ accusations.  Maybe we can emboss a big giant yellow “T” onto their avatars or posts?  Maybe we can ban Trolls.  Maybe we can make em disappear.  Please people.  (Dialogue sometimes happens with people whom you disagree.))

Me thinks most Americans, both Left or Right, need to relax and believe the world isn’t always coming to an end.

Some of the *real issues* that should concern America:
[]Nationalization of various East LA gangs
[]WhiteAmerica’s general inability to speak non-English languages

??? Nationalization of various East LA gangs?  I don’t know anything about this so tell me: are they actually trying to become a nation unto themselves?

How is it a problem that “White” America seems inable to speak non-English languages?  Is it only “White” America that has this problem?  At my job, I deal with a population that is 90% “Black” Americans, and I do not see them able to speak in a non-English language at all (unless you want to include slang as a language, which I don’t).  Is this a problem as well?

If you want to get upset, and really hyperventilate, about America’s future, don’t be misled by all these Consumerist Politicos (of Leftist or Rightist ilk).  There’s is just a momentary rhetorical campaign of this particular political-cycle.  Some of the *real issues* that should concern America:

[] America’s steel industry
[] Chinese defense spending
[] Nationalization of various East LA gangs
[] WhiteAmerica’s general inability to speak non-English languages

  Actually the *real* issues to worry about are:
overpopulation, ozone depletion, soaring cancer rates (even in children younger than previously recorded), global warming, deforestation (the above are all tied together), peak oil, desertification, the Sixth Great Extinction, the loss of potable water, and finally the fact that the public has let this Administartion undermine the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.  The current regime has turned the US into more of a police state than ever before.  The FBI has expanded powers that allow them to request information from banks, libraries, enter your home, all without your being notified of these searches.  Habeus corpus and the posse comitatus act are nothing more than a hollow shell of themselves.

About the troll thing, it was the last sentence in Daryl’s post that set off my troll detector, not the general arguing.

WhiteAmerica’s general inability to speak non-English languages

Yo hablo Español, y’all!

First off Daryl didn’t post about the White American language “problem”, TheBo$$.  rob did.

Originally posted by TheBo$$:
My basis on what things are right and wrong are based on logic and common sense.

So if we could determine what is morally correct by what is most perceivably correct in the sociological, biological, chemical and physical realms of this world could we agree on an absolute set of moral values?

Originally posted by rob adams:
Some of the *real issues* that should concern America:

It’s my opinion if we(the USA) helped the third world countries advance out of the third world lifestyle a lot of our own problems would be put in perspective and some of them may even go away.  My question is what should we do to encourage worldwide utopia?  Isn’t that the ultimate goal of humanity?  Shouldn’t it be?

Some of the *real issues* that should concern America:

[] America’s steel industry

Let the steel industry live or die in the free market. Tariffs will just make steel more expensive, which will make every domestic industry that buys steel less competitive. Subsidies reward poor performance while punishing successful people and industries with higher taxes, making them as an aggregate less competitive.

Check out the world map of economic freedom. Free markets work, socialism (a rose by any other name ...) does not.

[] Chinese defense spending

Considering that the US spends more on defense than the next seven to fifteen nations combined, this is not a major concern.

[] Nationalization of various East LA gangs

Considering that most crimes are committed within the same ethnic group, I would be a lot more concerned that they are on the streets instead of in jail.

[] WhiteAmerica’s general inability to speak non-English languages

If people can’t communicate they can’t enjoy the benefits of mutual cooperation, whether that is in the business world or socially.

Option A: White Americans become fluent in Spanish, Laotian, Indonesian, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Korean, and Portuguese.

Option B: non-white Americans all become fluent in English

While I am aware that liberals espouse transnational progressivism, it is tantamount to denying access to American society to immigrants.