I almost feel sorry for Andrew right now. He just doesn’t understand the kind of hole he’s digging for himself. Andrew, please, quit while you’re behind. You’re not going to convert anyone with your condescension and inability to actually debate. It’s ridiculous to come here and tell people what to think and that their own lives are trash without even the ability to back it up. It’s your own damn fault people are getting impatient with you—what do you expect with an attitude like yours.

This is really ridiculous. Wasn’t this post about a freaking movie??

yup, lovely book about a lion…
Debate is only possible when all are respectful of each other’s opinions, and each person comes to the table with RATIONAL agruments. For all have fallen short in the glory of debate.

Finny,

  Quite true.

To the tune of “Glory, Glory Hallelujah”:

For all have fallen short now in the glory of debate
Were we feelin kinda pissed off, was it just somethin we ate
Or perhaps because another Christian moral reprobate
Delurked and irked our soul

Glory, Godgiven Salvation
If you got the Invitation
If you didn’t, Hell’s your Station
With Trolls you’ll shovel Coal

Well there’s a video game for all platforms, inspired by and to be released in conjunction with the movie, so God must love gamers at least.

I wonder if you have to accept him as your Lord and Saviour though in order to win the game.

http://movieweb.com/news/news.php?id=7078

Ahh Zilch, love ya like a brother. Almost pissed my pants… but don’t blame you.

Brock: “I wonder if you have to accept him as your Lord and Saviour though in order to win the game.“

I believe that is precisely the point of evangelical Christianity.  Well, plus vote Republican.  And hate gays.  And oppose abortion.  And oppose affirmative action.  And invade Iraq…

“What we want, if men become Christians at all, is to keep them in the state of mind I call “Christianity And.“ You know - Christianity and the Crisis, Christianity and the New Psychology, Christianity and the New Order, Christianity and Faith Healing, Christianity and Psychical Research, Christianity and Vegetarianism, Christianity and Spelling Reform. If they must be Christians, let them at least be Christians with a difference. Substitute for the faith itself some Fashion with a Christian colouring. Work on their horror of the Same Old Thing.“
- Lewis’ demon, “Screwtape”, explaining how to undermine Christianity

Well DOF, if God is gonna make me vote Republican I might as well Become Republican

No “disconnect” then.

I know that I am a freak. Agnostic and not a Democrat. It’s amazing how much you can relieve yourself of the burden of thought by voting down party lines. It’s almost as liberating as being a TrueBeliever. Look I am something! I have the moral high road! I’m happy being the freak I am even if it cuts into my superiority complex training.

Andrew is so clueless he doesn’t understand that we’re annoyed with him, not with something “we don’t understand� as many of us do understand it, having been believers in the past.

Sorry, but I had to respond to this. Les, if you had been a believer (saved) you still would be, but your life, your thoughts, your actions, all these things would change…drastically. You probably along with who knows how many people said what you thought or was told was a “soul-saving prayer” by someone who unfortunately convinced AND deceived you. Well, they are liars. And I won’t even say that their intentions were good because if they themselves were truly saved, they’d know that salvation is not anything that we or they do. You don’t save you, God does.
  Also KPatrickGlover, you’re wrong about what you said about anger. Anger IS about a bitter unfulfilled person. We get angry because were unfulfilled (not satisfied) OR unhappy which leads to the emotions, sadness or ANGER because we feel or perceive someone has done or said something stupid or done some form of injustice to us. So, let’s not just stop there, lets go back further. Why do we feel that we’ve been wronged? Because we feel we deserve better. Why do we feel we deserve better? Because of our inherent PRIDE which of course has been identified as one of the 7 deadly sins.
  So, you see it all comes full circle back to GOD. Everything traces back to GOD. You’re lack of acknowledging that will always leave an open, never concluding argument or point.
  If you think I’ve been condescending, well, that’s your opinion. I’m trying to show you that your lack of belief and arguments are based on man’s rationale or sense of logic, not the complexity of GOD.
  So, go ahead throw some more insults and profanity at me. But, here’s a quote I fully agree with.
“Profanity is the attempt of a feeble mind to express itself forcefully.“

Andrew, let me get this straight. If I get angry about a genocide going on in the Sudan, it means I’m unfulfilled and bitter? If I get angry about the people dying in the Iraq war, it’s because I’m just too darn prideful?

And who are you to tell Les just why he’s not a believer anymore? Do you know him personally? Do you know his life story?

Stop deciding things for people you’ve never met, and stop pretending you know a damn thing about emotion and psychology.

Andrew said:

Sorry, but I had to respond to this. Les, if you had been a believer (saved) you still would be, but your life, your thoughts, your actions, all these things would change…drastically. You probably along with who knows how many people said what you thought or was told was a “soul-saving prayerâ€? by someone who unfortunately convinced AND deceived you. Well, they are liars. And I won’t even say that their intentions were good because if they themselves were truly saved, they’d know that salvation is not anything that we or they do. You don’t save you, God does.

Hope I did that right.  Anyway, Miss Cleo, is that you?  You know perfect strangers motives and what PROBABLY motivated them in changing their view of religion?  Amazing.  Can you teach me how to do that?  I could be pullin’ in the big bucks here.

Many people who were former christians have, using logic, reason, common sense and life experience, changed their view.  That claim “once a believer, always a believer” is just plain dumb in light of how many “non-believers” were formerly believers.  This doesn’t just happen with religion either.  There’s an old saying: “I wish I had known then what I know now”.  Views change.  Beliefs change.  People change.

. Anger IS about a bitter unfulfilled person. We get angry because were unfulfilled (not satisfied) OR unhappy which leads to the emotions, sadness or ANGER because we feel or perceive someone has done or said something stupid or done some form of injustice to us. So, let’s not just stop there, lets go back further. Why do we feel that we’ve been wronged? Because we feel we deserve better. Why do we feel we deserve better? Because of our inherent PRIDE which of course has been identified as one of the 7 deadly sins.

I found this bit of pseudo psycology interesting also.  Seems to me I recall Jesus getting pretty pissed off (angry) at the temple preists and showed his anger by overturning tables, yelling and making a general specticle of himself.  Are you saying Jesus was “bitter and unfulfilled”?  Why did Jesus feel he had been wronged?  Jesus felt he deserved better.  Why did he feel he deserved better?  Was it his inherent PRIDE which, of course, has been identified as one of the 7 deadly sins?

I wonder, do you actually think about what you type before you type it?  I mean REALLY think about it and not just be ruled by your emotions.  You not only judged Les and played a crappy Miss Cleo with his life, you also judged Jesus.  And that was all in one paragraph.

I’d be looking into a quality asbestos suite right about now if I were you.

Pardon if I screwed up the quote thingie.  Newbie.

Talking soup,

  Yeah, that a genocide is going on anywhere would make me bitter because of the sense of injustice. But you’ve used 2 very different and extreme examples that really can’t be applied here because genocide and war go (or mostly) against universally accepted moralistic creed or behavior.
  The reason I don’t think Les is saved is because what I said in my last post about extreme changes in one’s life. He flagrantly tosses out profanity (which a saved person would NEVER do)
  He openly argues that He doesn’t believe in GOD (again, a saved person wouldn’t do that).
  I don’t need to “know” his life story. There is proof in his words. and if his words are indicative of his life, then I would conclude He’s not saved.
  I don’t and can’t decide anything for anyone on this blog. That’s illogical and as psychology goes, I’m not pretending.

Andrew, again: “Les, if you had been a believer (saved) you still would be…“

Have you ever heard of the “No True Scotsman“ fallacy?  I’m guessing not.

Also KPatrickGlover, you’re wrong about what you said about anger. Anger IS about a bitter unfulfilled person.

So when Jesus went postal on the money-changers in the temple, was he bitter, or unfulfilled?  Or some combination of the two?

If you’re about to say it was OK for him to be angry, but not for us, save your breath.  He was “fully human”, remember?

KPatrick’s answer was right on target.  Anger is a normal response to unrelenting annoyance, among other things.  You are the 1.6x10⁴th person to say; “You must believe!  God will save you from being a scumbag like you really are!!!“  Then you wonder why we don’t just sit down with a cup of mellow vanilla flavored General Foods’ International Coffee and say; “Please, tell us more!“

If you think I’ve been condescending, well, that’s your opinion. I’m trying to show you that your lack of belief and arguments are based on man’s rationale or sense of logic, not the complexity of GOD.

“Condescension: n 2. Patronizingly superior behavior or attitude.“

‘You poor sinners, you’ve been deceived.  Here let me set you straight.‘  The condescension lies in coming here to deliver the word.  (Note: the two sentences in single-quotes in this paragraph are a summary, not literal quotes.)

So, go ahead throw some more insults and profanity at me. But, here’s a
quote I fully agree with. “Profanity is the attempt of a feeble mind to express itself forcefully.“

So that’s an easy way to tell a feeble mind from a strong one, eh?  Not whether someone engages in serial logical fallacies, or fails to learn about a group before preaching to it, or assumes they know someone’s motives or life based on stereotypes they’ve applied to that person?  That’s not how you tell if someone has a feeble mind?

Huh.  Never knew it was that simple.  Now I don’t need to really pay attention to what anyone is saying; I can just watch for keywords.  If the words “shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, or tits” appear in anything they say, they have a feeble mind.  Thanks, Andrew!  You’ve just revolutionized intelligence testing!

Dumbass.

The reason I don’t think Les is saved is because what I said in my last post about extreme changes in one’s life. He flagrantly tosses out profanity (which a saved person would NEVER do)
He openly argues that He doesn’t believe in GOD (again, a saved person wouldn’t do that).
I don’t need to “know� his life story. There is proof in his words. and if his words are indicative of his life, then I would conclude He’s not saved.

You should probably leave the final judgments to God.  Y’know, so He has something to do on judgment day.  You wouldn’t want Him sitting around getting all bored n’ stuff.

Sandy,

  There ya go again treating Jesus as if he were ONLY man…He was, is and will forever be the Son of GOD, GOD in human form.
  And yes, Jesus did get angry at the people dishonoring the church because GOD has a RIGHT to be angry. Sandy, why don’t you try reading the bible (and understanding what you read) before you make such a shallow observation?
  As far as judging Les? I just gave my opinion…like you did.
  And about your perception of your own intelligence? That’s called an opinion too.

If you were as fulfilled as you claim, you wouldn’t have this attitude. You wouldn’t curse me or anyone else. You wouldn’t have the obvious anger that you have.

My “obvious anger” is due to the fact that 25 years worth of trying to “respect” the need for religious people to cling to their delusions while simultaneously (and unsuccessfully) trying to halt their willful infection of my government and culture with those delusions.

Could you define “perfectly good lives� though? I’m very interested in knowing what your opinion of that is. Because it doesn’t seem by the tone of your posting that your life is “perfect� or “good�.

A perfectly good life is one in which someone else’s sky fairy has influence EXCLUSIVELY in their own lives and is blessedly absent from the governance and day-to-day events of my own and my child’s.  So you’re right; at the moment my life is neither perfect nor particularly good (especially in relation to my constitutional liberties), in light of the fact that all 25 years worth of a “live and let live” attitude toward religious fundamentalists has gotten me - and others like me - is the horror of hearing the President of the United States routinely declare he consults with God about governing, and watching public policy being shaped based on the ancient myths of desert tribes.

All you’ve done is lash out in anger for something you don’t understand. You’ve mocked me, cursed God and have shown me nothing but contempt.
At least some of the earlier postings, some responded with their opinions without cursing or mockery. I don’t agree with them just as they don’t agree with me, but we could still remain somewhat civil to each other.

What makes you think I don’t understand?  I understand quite well that if people like you have their way, America will be Jesusland, where eventually people who don’t believe in your God will suffer state-sanctioned abuse, contempt and mockery; rather than it just being pervasive, if not yet official.

I mock your belief system because it’s at best laughable and ridiculous in the 21st century, and I curse your God because at worst his followers are dangerous in their zeal to fight “evildoers.“ That the definition of “evildoers” seems to extend to “anyone not saved” should sure as hell make everyone but Jesus freaks angry.  I believe I, and other Americans opposed to breaching the Wall of Church-State separation made a huge mistake in being tolerant in the face of the power grab by the religious right.  This “movement” that probably started before you were born should have been strangled in its infancy by the reality-based community, rather than allowed to gain momentum because everyone should be “respectful” of others’ beliefs.  I will respect individuals’ RIGHT to believe whatever they like, but I refuse to respect those beliefs themselves and I certainly will no longer stand quietly by while those beliefs are held up as some sort of moral standard by which ALL Americans should live, by force of law.

Your responses tell me that you are hurting inside and that you’re actually not fulfilled, but miserable. It’s normal what you’re experiencing, but it doesn’t have to be.

Perhaps you see misery and lack of fulfillment, through your God-goggles; however what it is IN REALITY is my final stand against people who believe as you do having official support of MY government in propping up your faith.  What you see is righteous indignation, and with any luck at all you’ll be seeing a lot MORE of it.

I see we’re back to the “No True Christian would…“ line of argument. Always a popular one with the apologists.

Sorry, but I had to respond to this. Les, if you had been a believer (saved) you still would be, but your life, your thoughts, your actions, all these things would change…drastically.

My pastor would probably argue that I’m still saved even though I’ve gone on to become an atheist. He taught that once you were saved you’d always be saved and there wasn’t anything you could do to change that. I’ve heard a ton of arguments both for and against that idea from various Christians over the years, but it’s a moot point as far as I’m concerned.

Regardless this again shows your arrogance in presuming to know my past based on only a little info about my present. Your ignorance just makes you look like an idiot. The truly amusing part about it is the fact that I’ve talked about my past quite a bit here on this blog and it’s all in the archives for you to read up on, but you’d rather pretend to have me all figured out without knowing anything about me.

You probably along with who knows how many people said what you thought or was told was a “soul-saving prayer� by someone who unfortunately convinced AND deceived you. Well, they are liars. And I won’t even say that their intentions were good because if they themselves were truly saved, they’d know that salvation is not anything that we or they do. You don’t save you, God does.

Moving beyond simple presuming to know my past and motivations to knowing the past and motivations of the various religious folks I once associated with, eh? Just like Sandy suggests, you really must be Miss Cleo!

Also KPatrickGlover, you’re wrong about what you said about anger. Anger IS about a bitter unfulfilled person. We get angry because were unfulfilled (not satisfied) OR unhappy which leads to the emotions, sadness or ANGER because we feel or perceive someone has done or said something stupid or done some form of injustice to us. So, let’s not just stop there, lets go back further. Why do we feel that we’ve been wronged? Because we feel we deserve better. Why do we feel we deserve better? Because of our inherent PRIDE which of course has been identified as one of the 7 deadly sins.

That’s gotta big the biggest load of horse shit I’ve read in a long, long time. Then you turn around and contradict yourself when given a perfectly good example of justified anger. How convenient that there’s an exception to the rule, eh?

So, you see it all comes full circle back to GOD. Everything traces back to GOD. You’re lack of acknowledging that will always leave an open, never concluding argument or point.

Only in your delusion, Andrew, only in your delusion.

If you think I’ve been condescending, well, that’s your opinion. I’m trying to show you that your lack of belief and arguments are based on man’s rationale or sense of logic, not the complexity of GOD.

No, my lack of belief in God(s) is based on the lack of God(s) to believe in.

So, go ahead throw some more insults and profanity at me. But, here’s a quote I fully agree with.
“Profanity is the attempt of a feeble mind to express itself forcefully.�

At least we’re attempting, you’re just being feeble.

As long as we’re throwing out quotes about profanity, here’s one of my favorites:

“My swearing doesn’t mean any more to me than your sermons do to you.“—Mark Twain in a comment made to Rev. Joe Twichell.

Moving on…

He openly argues that He doesn’t believe in GOD (again, a saved person wouldn’t do that).

I don’t argue that I don’t believe in God, I simply don’t believe. I have no need to convince you that I really don’t believe and I don’t really give a shit if you think that, deep down, I really do believe and am just in denial so there’s nothing for me to openly argue about on that point. It’s not an opinion, but a clear and simple fact: I don’t believe in the existence of God(s).

I don’t need to “know� his life story. There is proof in his words. and if his words are indicative of his life, then I would conclude He’s not saved.

Too bad we’re not discussing whether or not I’m saved, but rather what my religious background happens to be. In which case knowing my life story would help you form a more accurate picture, but your arrogance keeps getting in the way. Arrogance, of course, is a form of pride which I believe you were just pointing out was a sin, no?

  As far as judging Les? I just gave my opinion…like you did.

What an idiotic statement to make. In order to have an opinion you must make a

judgment

about it. Something I believe, as a Christian, you were told not to do. A true Christian would withhold his opinions of others as that’s God’s job, not yours.

See? I can play the True Christian game too.

And about your perception of your own intelligence? That’s called an
opinion too.

You’ve certainly proven the truth of that statement by setting a good example of overestimating your own worth, that’s for sure.

You’ve moved from being irritating to being highly amusing. Not exactly a step up, by the way.

Andrew- why should anyone here take you seriously?  You tell us our lives are meaningless, you claim all kinds of personal knowledge about us although you don’t know us from Adam, you pelt us with tired old fundie fare, and then you whine when we respond sarcastically.  Read a lot more threads here, get a feeling for who we are and what we’ve dealt with already, before sounding off anymore.  I guarantee it will be more entertaining for all of us.

Yeah, that a genocide is going on anywhere would make me bitter because of the sense of injustice. But you’ve used 2 very different and extreme examples that really can’t be applied here because genocide and war go (or mostly) against universally accepted moralistic creed or behavior.

Hmmm… they certainly don’t appear to be against God’s morals - or the morals we’re supposed to adopt according to Scripture.

Joshua 10:40 (KJV)

6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

God is certainly one bloodthirsty motherfucker!

zilch,

  I never said that your lives were meaningless and if I even implied that, I truly apologise.
  Les, yeah, I admit I still sin. I earlier was letting agitation dictate what I thought and typed when I really should have just “let it go”. I still have issues that are being dealt with, but that admission or confession in itself AND the desire to change or repent helps give me my assurance and faith.
  You and the others are right about me not knowing what you’ve dealt with before and drawing conclusions (or did I really?). I thought we were all being open here, but I guess I should have read earlier logs to know where you were coming from..guess I am a “newbie”.
  Thank you for your advice and yes, I will read some more about you and the others before I make a comment.
    Thank you all for help pointing out my sin and faults that I have. Take care.

Yeah, that a genocide is going on anywhere would make me bitter because of the sense of injustice. But you’ve used 2 very different and extreme examples that really can’t be applied here because genocide and war go (or mostly) against universally accepted moralistic creed or behavior.

Thank you for contradicting yourself. How the hell is it “different?“ It’s okay to get angry at something, just as long as it’s something that’s universally unacceptable? So I have no individuality or free will? If I get angry at something it’s because it’s pissing me off, simple as that—like you’re doing by coming here with the holier-than-thou mentality that’s a trademark of people like you.

I don’t and can’t decide anything for anyone on this blog.

But you already are. You’re passing judgment on us, people you’ve never met, after having read a few comments on a single thread. You’ve already decided that Les and the rest of us aren’t saved, that we’re all believers at heart, etc. etc.

Tiresome as you are, it’s getting amusing to watch you dig yourself even deeper.

OB,

  Yeah, a lot of old testament cities and countries were wiped out. This was usually only after repeated disobedience to God’s command. That’s why believers think God sent Jesus.

Can we just have it on record that some of us aren’t buying what Andrew is selling and leave it at that?

Aww, c’mon Elwed.  That wouldn’t be as much fun!

God:  (irrationally enraged) “How DARE they disobey my obscure and contradictory commands?  Kill ALL of them!!!  Wipe them ALL out!!! Every man, woman and child!  KILL THE LIVESTOCK!  Burn down their…“

Jesus:  “Dad!  Chill out, man!  Dude, in 2500 years, they’re going to call what you’re doing “genocide” and put people on trial for it.“

God:  “But it’s MY planet!  I created everything.  Can’t I wipe it all out if I want to?“

Jesus: “I suppose you could, but those are sentient beings you created.  If preservation of the others’ autonomy is at the core of ethics, you can’t just be killing them anytime they give you a headache.“

God:  “I knew it was a mistake to send you to college.  Next you’ll be saying “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” or some other soft-headed crap like that.  What do you propose, college-boy?  Somebody has to die for their disobedience…“

“Somebody has to die for their disobedience…â€?
Okay I accept that someone has to die. Anyone up for being a martyr? Most rational people say “not me”. Those on the fringe seem to up for it with a bomb strapped to their chests, a copy of the Koran (or Bible… whatever), and visions of virgins waiting.