Yes Elwed,

You definitely can have that on the record.

Thanks for making me chuckle, guys. I needed a laugh today.

I, for one, can never understand how people consider this god mysterious and unknowable yet claim to know exactly who he likes and will save. They speak of being certain he will save them but only a two bit god would allow himself to be so predictable.

Andrew, I can’t say I understand your religion very well but from what I do glean of it, you have no business deciding who is or isn’t right with god. Doing so is playing at being a god yourself.

There ya go again treating Jesus as if he were ONLY man...He was, is and will forever be the Son of GOD, GOD in human form.

If Jesus could manage that trick of being a god in human form, maybe anyone can: Maybe we’re all gods. Maybe we all created and are maintaining
this reality we’re each immersed in. If you’re going to play at being a god, you should at least do so joyfully and inclusively.

Any good thing that you receive, do you think that you deserve it? And if so, why? Why would we sinners of a GOD as holy and righteous as He, think that we DESERVE anything, but His wrath?

That attitude is a dangerous one whether you realize it or not. Your lack of respect for humanity is too common but doesn’t benefit anyone. I consider your dismissal of human importance and value to be immensely harmful to society. You live to fear and push that fear on others and I would love to understand why you consider that noble.

DOF:

Aww, c’mon Elwed.  That wouldn’t be as much fun!

Suit yourself I have found more enjoyable things to do with what little time I can spare these days.

Brock:

I, for one, can never understand how people consider this god mysterious and unknowable yet claim to know exactly who he likes and will save.

You and I both. Well, just as long as it makes sense to True Believers, eh.

If Jesus could manage that trick of being a god in human form, maybe anyone can: Maybe we’re all gods. Maybe we all created and are maintaining
this reality we’re each immersed in. If you’re going to play at being a god, you should at least do so joyfully and inclusively.

Maybe Heinlein was right:  “Thou art God.”

Any good thing that you receive, do you think that you deserve it? And if so, why? Why would we sinners of a GOD as holy and righteous as He, think that we DESERVE anything, but His wrath?

See, that’s the thing:  I don’t think I “deserve” anything that happens to me, good or bad.  Either I do it myself, or it’s out of my control.  I take great comfort in the randomness of the universe.  It’s a lot better than trying to justify why bad things happen to good people, and vice versa.

And if you think about it, monotheistic religions tend to be pretty egotistical in nature.  Why should you think that we’re any more “special” than any other creature, to deserve our own personal God in our image?  Why should we be special enough to get to keep on living as an individual after death?  Wanting to believe that we ourselves are “eternal” in some way is understandable, but still the height of hubris.

zilch,

I never said that your lives were meaningless and if I even implied that, I truly apologise.

Apology accepted, Andrew.  But here’s what you said:

Without a true purpose in this life and what you’re here for, how can you even go day to day? It’s not only drudgery, it’s insane.

OB and DoF (very funny and apposite) have already addressed some trifling anger management problems Jehovah seems to have, so I’ll just ask one question.  You say

Yeah, a lot of old testament cities and countries were wiped out. This was usually only after repeated disobedience to God’s command.

Even supposing that what God told the various peoples to do was right, and that disobedience was wrong, by definition, because He’s God (not that I accept this), what about all the babies God ordered to be killed?  At least by my depraved secular humanist lights, this Jehovah is not a very nice guy.

Yeah, a lot of old testament cities and countries were wiped out. This was usually only after repeated disobedience to God’s command.

“God’s command” primarily being that all nations give up their own beliefs and adopt the religion of the Israelites.  Oh yeah, and while they were at it, they should cede their land to the Israelites… because Jehovah SAID they should have it.

Sadly there are still people being killed today because of this supposed divine land grant.

In case anyone’s interested in getting back to the original topic here, after the distraction of Andrew’s drive-by witnessing, check out this perceptive look at C.S. Lewis by Adam Gopnik, in the New Yorker online: Prisoner of Narnia.

The same thing has happened to G. K. Chesterton: the enthusiasts are so busy chortling and snickering as their man throws another right hook at the rationalist that they don’t notice that the rationalist isn’t actually down on the canvas; he and his friends have long since left the building.

ROTFLMAO

Found this article today:

Disney Pitches ‘Narnia’ to Christians
Dec 2, 3:18 PM (ET)

While refusing to call it a religious movie, Disney is using the same company that promoted Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the Christ” to publicize “Narnia” through churches across the country. The goal is to create the perfect Christmas blockbuster, appealing to both secular and religious audiences.

Rice said only 5 percent of the marketing budget for “Narnia,” which opens Dec. 9, targeted faith-based groups. Still, there were eight showings for church groups nationwide, including one in November for about 700 pastors and church staffers at the Colorado Springs headquarters of the conservative Christian group Focus on the Family.

Greg Wright, senior editor for HollywoodJesus.com - a Web site that reviews movies from a spiritual perspective - thinks pastors see the movie as an evangelism tool and a sign of their growing cultural influence. Because of that, he said, pastors are being “used” to help promote the film even before seeing it.

The tendency is to think we are engaged in this massive cultural war and to seize this opportunity and fight back,” he said.

Parishioners at Cherry Creek Presbyterian Church in Denver are being allowed to see the movie a day early. The church has rented out a 350-seat theater and tickets are going quickly, said Bruce Finfrock, the family ministries pastor.

The church will follow up with a panel discussion of the movie for adults and a Narnia-themed vacation bible school in July for kids.

Finfrock said the movie draws attention to basic family values and depicts what Christians believe to be a very real battle between good and evil in the world.

“As Christians, we celebrate the fact that good will ultimately win out over evil,” he said, “and the movie validates what we believe to be true.”

Andrew:  Anger IS about a bitter unfulfilled person. We get angry because were unfulfilled (not satisfied) OR unhappy

- Mark 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and he entered into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and them that bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and the seats of them that sold the doves;

16 and he would not suffer that any man should carry a vessel through the temple.

17 And he taught, and said unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations? but ye have made it a den of robbers.

Jesus was angry when he did this. Are you saying he was a bitter, unfulfilled person?
The Bible says be angry and sin not. It doesn’t say you’re not going to get angry!

Debbie,

Thanks for your comment. I’d probably say that my interpretation of the scripture with any valid basis, is that Jesus’s anger was driven by disappointment (not that He didn’t know what they would do or had done) and their desecration of His Father’s house (temple) was a matter that needed to be addressed through rebuke.

Since The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe probably won’t answer some of the questions I’ve collected after reading Erin Daly and Andrew, I’m gonna have to ask them to clarify some of their statements:

Erin 11/15/05: If your language is any indication of your character, then I guess your hell on earth is created by your own devaluation of your self. Do you think that maybe you might have a better opinion of yourself if you know that someone greater than you (hard to believe?) loves you?

Doesn’t the Bible say that we humans are inherently sinful and evil? How much does a curse word or two add to the evilness of humans already born for sinuation?

Aren’t you already vastly devaluing others by telling them they are inherently evil? Do they even need to go through the effort of devaluing themselves when you Christians are on the job?

Andrew 11/16/05: Decrepit, Les and anyone else that doesn’t believe in GOD, I CANNOT save you.

I’m confused; isn’t that what folks like you are trying to do when you go around preaching?

To have faith in GOD, to be saved and any other blessings that anyone has is ALL by HIM. GOD commands believers to glorify Him and to spread the good news (Gospel). AGAIN, this is all by GOD. By His will do I glorify Him. By His will do I talk about Him. By His will would I even attempt to communicate to you or anyone else.

How much extra bling bling do you get in Heaven if you save someone? Do you get your picture taken with God or something? Maybe get listed in The Heavenly Times? If everything is God’s will and none of yours, why do you even talk to anyone about him? Do sinners need you as a go-between?

GOD NEVER needed us or anything. He USES us for His glory

What a massive prick God must be to need to go around glorifying himself all the time: He tosses losers in a lake of fire and that’s glory-worthy?

Remind me never to call God gloomy or reactionary or something like that. God giving Himself all that adoration, honor and praise just doesn’t seem glorious to me.

Andrew: GOD didn’t want to condemn His creation to hell as we all deserve, but to send a Savior, Jesus Christ to take our punishment. That is who GOD is.

God sent Himself or it wouldn’t make sense for Him to say He is the only god in existence. So He sent Himself to pretend He (Jesus) died? How messed up is that? Have you ever played dead before? If so, did it thrill anybody or piss somebody off?

Why would anyone who has an inkling of who GOD is, deny His Love and Grace? That grieves me more than you’ll ever know.

Are you gonna be OK, dude? You want a Kleenex?

Andrew 11/16/05: Your responses tell me that you are hurting inside…

Yeah, but apparently not as much as your grieving ass is.

Sorry, but I had to respond to this. Les, if you had been a believer (saved) you still would be, but your life, your thoughts, your actions, all these things would change...drastically. You probably along with who knows how many people said what you thought or was told was a “soul-saving prayer� by someone who unfortunately convinced AND deceived you. Well, they are liars. And I won’t even say that their intentions were good because if they themselves were truly saved, they’d know that salvation is not anything that we or they do. You don’t save you, God does.

What? uh ok,...anyway , you’re the liar, you’re the LIAR! Liar, liar heathens on fire!

Andrew: We get angry because were unfulfilled (not satisfied) OR unhappy which leads to the emotions, sadness or ANGER because we feel or perceive someone has done or said something stupid or done some form of injustice to us. So, let’s not just stop there, lets go back further. Why do we feel that we’ve been wronged? Because we feel we deserve better. Why do we feel we deserve better? Because of our inherent PRIDE which of course has been identified as one of the 7 deadly sins.

We DO deserve better than to be done wrong! Pride’s got nothing to do with it.

Do me wrong and I get angry; it’s as simple and as justified as that.

I’m trying to show you that your lack of belief and arguments are based on man’s rationale or sense of logic, not the complexity of GOD.

It seems pretty prideful for you to suggest you understand the complexities of a god? Brag much?

Yeah, that a genocide is going on anywhere would make me bitter because of the sense of injustice.

Dude, you sure you’re OK? I’ve got a Kleenex.

Speaking of Les
I don’t need to “know� his life story. There is proof in his words. and if his words are indicative of his life, then I would conclude He’s not saved.

Can God have a day off now, cause you’re on the job, aren’t you? You go, Godly dude!

There ya go again treating Jesus as if he were ONLY man...He was, is and will forever be the Son of GOD, GOD in human form.

Make up your mind! Is He God or the Son of God? Is that like being someone’s brother and father at the same time? Inbreeding sucks!

You and the others are right about me not knowing what you’ve dealt with before and drawing conclusions (or did I really?)

I don’t know. Ask God, or ask yourself if it’s your shift.

...not that He didn’t know what they would do or had done) and their desecration of His Father’s house (temple) was a matter that needed to be addressed through rebuke.

Yeah, He knew because He’s GOD!

This God guy is one sneaky fella, I’ll tell you that!

God - The other white Jesus.

Why do we feel we deserve better? Because of our inherent PRIDE which of course has been identified as one of the 7 deadly sins.

Okay, Andrew, I’m a glutton- for punishment.  Is that one of the seven deadly sins?  Luckily for me, these seven deadly sins are not from the Bible.  And here I had you pegged as a fundamentalist Christian…

For myself, my brother’s little jingle says it all:

I don’t know but I’ve been told
Can’t get to heaven in a jello mold

Brock,

Hahahahaaa...You having a bad day or something?

Okay, Andrew is really a moron. Suffice it to say, since my IQ is in the triple digits and I generally enjoy life, I’m happy to declare myself a proud liberal and Jesus-free. Have a nice day (and quit your fucking crying)!

About these movies...I don’t know if I want to see ‘em or not. I’ve never read the books, but I did watch a version of “The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe” in the third grade. I enjoyed the film for the first half hour or so, but then it just became boring for me. And I found the kids terribly annoying (although they may have just been terribly annoying actors).

I don’t like the idea that the Christian Wrong is urging its sheep to view the films in hordes, but then I’m never one to let the Reich influence what I do. If I do see the movies, it’s probably gonna be after the holidays (when there are available seats in the theaters).

Sadie,

Congratulations on your I.Q. I’m not sure why you bothered to post that as something to brag about because many people have an I.Q. in the 3 digits.
And as for crying, I never said that I did. You assumed since I said I grieve for many of the attitudes and beliefs I see on this blog that I was crying.
Also, to compare Christianity with the 3rd Reich is so ludicrous, I would urge you to actually read about Hitler and Germany’s history in the 1930’s-1940’s, his “reasoning” and his horrific attempt at genocide.

I note that Andrew, the religion peddler, is back.

Viritually all German Nazis were Christians, although many Christians trot out the No True Christian fallacy. Concerning the people collectively referred to as the Religious Reich, it is entirely appropriate to compare that subset of Christians to the German Nazi of Third Reich infamy.

Elwedriddsche,

Yeah, “virtually” being the operative word there. They may have all claimed to be Christian, but to follow through willfully to the slaughter of some 8 million plus people is NOT Christian in attitude nor action.
I don’t really think of myself as a peddler. But, that’s okay if you do.

They may have all claimed to be Christian, but to follow through willfully to the slaughter of some 8 million plus people is NOT Christian in attitude nor action.

Uh, huh. So what about The Crusades?

The Spanish Inquisition?

The Salem Witch Trials?

Hilarious that Elwed mentions the “No true Christian” fallacy and in the very next comment Andrew provides an illustration of same.

Andrew, please spare us the No True Christian spiel. The population of Nazi Germany was almost exclusively Christian and has been that way for far longer than the Third Reich was supposed to last. You can either claim none of them were True Christians or that a handful of the wrong type of Christians (or non-Christians) lorded over a nation of True Christians and made them complicit in something the True Christians cannot be complicit with. Either way, not a stellar performance.

I see the same kind of people in the American Religious Reich than I see in the old and new German Nazis. All they lack is opportunity and a perception that they can get away with whatever.

They may have all claimed to be Christian, but to follow through willfully to the slaughter of some 8 million plus people is NOT Christian in attitude nor action.

This is the “No True Christian” fallacy to which elwed was referring, Andrew. Under the same logic one could claim that no American has ever committed murder, as a “true American” wouldn’t kill a fellow citizen.
Hey, look! I just solved the crime problem! I guess we don’t have to worry about convincing Americans not to kill each other- they can’t!

Andrew, even you have to admit that there’s a religious faction in America that can be referred to as a “Christian Reich.” These are the people who cry out for the assassination of the leaders of other nations (e.g. Mexico). These are the people who would put homosexuals, atheists, environmentalists and anyone else who doesn’t meet their standards in concentration camps, if they could. You can say they’re not “True Christians” (assuming there is such a thing), but that doesn’t change the fact that they certainly believe they are, and are carrying out subversion and intolerance in the name of Christianity.

BTW zilch, that Gopnik piece was great.

[Lewis] is never troubled by the funny coincidence that this one staggering cosmic truth also happens to be the established religion of his own tribe, supported by every institution of the state, and reinforced by the university he works in, the “God-fearing and God-sustaining University of Oxford,� as Gladstone called it.

Word.

I’d probably say that my interpretation of the scripture with any valid basis

But, Andrew, it’s not your place to interpret the Bible. The Bible is the inspired word of God. He doesn’t need an interpreter.
Jesus’s anger was driven by disappointment

How could he have been disappointed? a feeling of dissatisfaction that results when your expectations are not realized (Webster’s dictionary)
Jesus knew what they would be doing before it was done.