This CNN article is a good example of how scientists can get all happy and excited when their previous hypotheses are proven to be wrong:

Scientists say the animal’s last meal probably is the first proof that mammals hunted small dinosaurs some 130 million years ago. It contradicts conventional evolutionary theory that early mammals were timid, chipmunk-sized creatures that scurried in the looming shadow of the giant reptiles.

In this case, the mammal was about the size of a large cat, and the victim was a 5-inch “parrot dinosaur.“

Other scientists who did not work on the bones described the discoveries as “exhilarating.“

“This size range really has surprised everybody,“ said Zhexi Luo of the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh, who digs in the same area of northeast China. “It dispels the conventional wisdom.“

When was the last time any hard evidence proving a religious belief wrong was WELCOMED with EXHILARATION?

Hard evidence and religion don’t even sit in the same room together, much less share a nice cuppa tea.

GM: Uh, ever seen a person change their worldview in an experience they call “salvation” or “conversion?“  They’re useually pretty jubilant!  Also, Millions were jubilant at Martin Luther’s correcting the corruption of Catholicism, & have remained so.

DOF, your explaination holds well, much like many current discussions I’ve had of free will vs. predestination.  You are a good teacher, & probnably were a fairly good pastor.

I’ve always understood the scientific process & science to be a part of God’s design in our brains to understand His world that is not the whole.  I think we need to use faith & theology where it leaves off.  Maybe OEE’s just think science explains more than I do or think the things it does explain are more relevant than I think they are.  I just don’t see any good reason to believe anything on this earth is more than 50,000 years old.  As far as the documents data, my chemistry teacher in high school explained that water throws off carbon dating.  Most carbon dating is judged by the standard of wood in graves of a documented age.  But when that same wood was soaked in water, the date became around 10,00 years older.

You guys had me all confused, tossing around acronyms like that, until I figured it out:

OEE= wooee!
YEC= yuck!

As far as the documents data, my chemistry teacher in high school explained that water throws off carbon dating.  Most carbon dating is judged by the standard of wood in graves of a documented age.  But when that same wood was soaked in water, the date became around 10,00 years older.

Two problems with this statement: First, most carbon dating is not done on wood from graves. Carbon-14 dating, which you’re referring to, is used on anything that was once alive and is now dead to determine how long ago it died. It is limited to around 50,000 years and doesn’t take into consideration possible contamination. Thus it could be done on wood in a grave or on any other organic material found at the site in question.

Secondly, Carbon-14 isn’t the only method of Radiometric dating that’s available. There are several different types including Uranium/Lead, Potassium/Argon, and Argon/Argon which can be used on inorganic as well as organic material, is not limited to 50,000 years, and accounts for possible contamination.

Ellie said: “I just don’t see any good reason to believe anything on this earth is more than 50,000 years old.“

More interesting would be your reasons for not believing it. 

Paleoclimatologically interlaced tree-ring data goes back 120,000 years.  We have annual Antarctic ice accumulation cores that go back 420,000 years (The Vostok core.)  The rate of continental drift can be compared to the current configuration of our globe.  Some elemental isotopes decay at a far slower rate than carbon-14, and so are used to date rock strata in billions of years. And the age of the universe can be roughly derived from the known velocity of light against observed astronomical data.  One might quibble about percentages, but suffice it to say, it’s a lot more than 50,000 years.

But plainly, you don’t want to believe it.  For some reason, you’re comforted by the belief that the very consistent universe in which we find ourselves is all an illusion put together by a deceptive god which has some motive for making us think the Earth is older than it really is (and with terrible consequences if we fail to deny the evidence senses, our instruments, and of reason.) 

That’s the power of the Christian meme.  It’s nearly bulletproof: 

• It can’t be tested - in fact it’s a sin to try to disprove it
• It maintains its own integrity around a source document
• Both the reward and the punishment take place in the one place where they cannot be verified: death (spare me the “near-death experiences” of someone’s oxygen-starved brain)
• It is exclusive
• It must be passed on

How very convenient that god can’t show himself or we’d just explode. 

I was a lousy pastor, by the way.  I just wasn’t comfortable in the role - they were right to fire me.  Have you ever read a story to little children?  They don’t like any changes in the story; not even changes in emphasis.  “No! That’s not how it goes!!!  It goes like this:...“

No, I suppose the days could be metaphorical for ages, plenty of my Christian friends believe that.  I don’t see any inconsistencies, the wood used in coffins, having once been alive & having a date they can measure, is the standard from which they start to test accuracy against the bones of the person, & since the two were so contradictory, they went with the wood.  The only real gain I could percieve from taking on faith that the earth is billions upon billions of years old is that I get to feel, in my head, that I’m smarter than everyone else who’s dumb enough to have a different faith than I do.  I don’t see terrible consequences, & feel the reward very much in this life. I don’t see “sin” for testing or questioning either.  It’s as exclusive as intelligence, & I have yet to see any benefit from taking on faith that the earth is billions upon billions of years old….so you’re right, I don’t want to.  I don’t believe anything I don’t want to that leaves me no benefit.  If I do, I change it.

I guess in the sense that I am made up of molecules that have been around for long before they were funneled into this form, I’m billions of years old, so just because there’s a possibility that rocks on this earth are that old doesn’t mean they were in the form of this earth…

Ellie said: “The only real gain I could percieve from taking on faith that the earth is billions upon billions of years old is that I get to feel, in my head, that I’m smarter than everyone else who’s dumb enough to have a different faith than I do.“

I’d have to agree with you if it were necessary to take it on faith.  But it is not necessary to take it on faith.  There is hard physical evidence for it. 

The whole notion of believing in something because of some perceived personal advantage or disadvantage is corrupt, Ellie.  Does it simply not matter to you to understand your universe as clearly as you can?  Are you really content with a fantasy if it meets some emotional need?

I give up.

Yeah, but to take truth outside of any wholeness of being (including emotions & spirit) seems currupt to me…

Yeah, but to take truth outside of any wholeness of being (including emotions & spirit) seems currupt to me…

So, if you don’t feel good about it, you don’t believe it, regardless of how much evidence there is to support it? What if you decide you don’t like the idea of Australia, will you stop believing in that?

I, personally, like the idea of Australia.  I mean they’ve got way cool animals, and Dream Lines, and a bizarre opera house.  I’ve even met some funny-sounding people who claim to be from Australia.

But alas, I’ve never been to Australia, so I cannot in good conscience believe in it.  Just like evilution: I can’t see it, so it doesn’t exist.  I’d rather believe in Disneyland anyway.  Haven’t been there either, but it’s so cute.

I don’t believe anything I don’t want to that leaves me no benefit.

Well, that’s noble and virtuous.  Glad you’re a teacher, because the first thing I want my kids to learn is that you should only believe in things you like.
So, there goes WW2, Iraq, Bush, spiders, fundies, brussel sprouts, nutrasweet, mad cow, and all of Orson Scott Card’s Ender Series after Speaker for the dead.
Hello, is it raining men again?  Dang, I thought that was snow outside!

I was a lousy pastor, by the way.  I just wasn’t comfortable in the role - they were right to fire me…

I think I would have enjoyed having you as a pastor, DOF.

Zilch:

But alas, I’ve never been to Australia, so I cannot in good conscience believe in it.

*blinks* *looks round* *vanishes in a puff of logic along with the non-existant koalas and lamingtons*

I don’t believe anything I don’t want to that leaves me no benefit.

Wow, by that logic, Ellie doesn’t exist in my reality. So who the hell keeps posting under her name? I don’t want to believe people like Ellie could possibly exist and there’s not benefit for me in having her exist so where are all these silly comments from her coming from?

“...Iraq (the war, I presume), Bush, spiders, fundies…“ Poor li’l spiders; they are so misunderstood, and as a benefit to humankind, do not belong in that statement. You spiderist, you. 

shana-   and we were getting along so swimmingly.  What a cruel disenchantment.  Not only are you a spiderist, but a brusselsproutist.  And if you ask me, the Ender series started going downhill right after Ender’s Game (although Ender’s Shadow was pretty good).

Tish- you can come back now.  I do believe in Oz, I do, I do, I do!

Les- thx for correcting my typo.  I believe in you, too.

My favorite funny spider story:  I was working at my desk when a spider the size of a quarter started walking across my papers.  Afraid I’d accidentally crush him I blew him off the papers with a puff of air.  He came back, and again, puff.  It came back again, and then again.  For some reason it just wanted to be where I was working.

My graduate assistant, who was from Bangladesh, asked me, What is that?  I showed him the spider.

He recoiled in horror: What kind is it?!  Is it dangerous?  Shouldn’t you kill it?

I explained it was harmless (like almost all spiders in Illinois) and that I preferred its company to the bugs it would surely eat in its lifetime.  He went back to his desk with a close eye on the spider… or maybe on me!

Later, I realized they may have spiders in Bangladesh that you really shouldn’t let crawl around on your workspace

That’s why I like believing Rom. 8:28 anything I don’t like in the tempermental is ultimately for God’s glory anyway.

Oh, Justice…I do mean the Iraq war.  Yar, the typing.

The spiders are not my fault!  Boys used to throw them at me in elementary school.

The brussel sprouts are also not my fault!  I have the taster gene which means that I taste an odd iodine-blocking chemical in cabbages and their close relations, and it tastes AWFUL!

I read Speaker for the Dead first, and it was for an anthropological theory class…I enjoyed it as much as Ender’s Game, though Ender’s Game was more exciting.  After that, I have been disappointed.  The whole Peter and Valentine thing?  OCD planet?  WTF?  And Ender’s Shadow is so blatantly pro-life.

Now that I have given this thread the kick it needed to go completely off track, I sincerely apologize…

*Throws Huntsman and redback spiders at zilch the Unbelieving Infidel*

Oh, and Rom was great in ST:DS9

There, now we’re further off-topic

Wow, talk about a mega-thread! Fortunately it was worth the three hours of my life it took to read the damn thing. I saw some very intelligent (and some not so very intelligent) points made.

To help spin this even further off topic, a high-school teacher of mine had a very interesting idea on spiders: he said that cobwebs actually contributed to good health. Don’t know how he backed that theory up, but there you go.

It’s true, cobwebs allow spiders to catch food, the consumption of which keeps them healthy (unless they consume too much of course)

Yes, this is a very long thread.
Yes indeed.
Yep.

About those spiders- the consumption of the webs contributes to the good health of the spiders, too- they eat and recycle their old ones.

We could learn a lot from spiders, but I draw the line at having to eat my old 1962 Rambler station wagon.

And remember that Black Widow webs were used as cross-hairs in bombardier sights in WWII. That probably did not contribute to the health of the Nazis, but the Brits were grateful. I also confess that the prospect of my mate eating me after coitus does not bring up an appealing picture (uh, using the primary definition, not the slang)

OK, hopefully twenty close tags for BOLD should work…that’s starting to hurt my eyebones. I know it’s a very old thread, but if there are any further posts, hopefully they won’t all be BOLDED.