Conservatives find creative way to push creationism in school.

Posted by Les on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 at 08:26 AM. Read 6351 times. Tags: ,
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The following is a complete reprint of an artice written by John Brice for The State News and was originally published on April 15th, 2004.  It’s being reprinted here with John’s permission and remains copyrighted by The State News.

I wanted to reprint the article for a couple of reasons, first it’s a good summary of the goals of the movement to have Intelligent Design Creationism taught in our public schools, of which Michigan is one state that is considering such a move. But the main reason I wanted to reprint the article is that it includes an argument against teaching IDC in schools that I hadn’t considered previously myself and which I’m willing to bet many IDC proponents also haven’t considered before. Namely, what IDC could potentially imply about the nature of the Designer it claims is necessary. It’s a good read and I appreciate John allowing me to reprint it in whole.

    Conservatives find creative way to push creationism in school Our public schools are under attack from religious warriors crusading to inject creationism into science classes. The most recently evolved variant of creationist propaganda is known as Intelligent Design Creationism (IDC) and has been constructed with the goal of slipping into science curriculums by masquerading as a science. To pull off this feat of deception, a nebulous and unnamed “designer” replaces traditional concepts of God. By carefully avoiding direct mention of God or any Judeo-Christian concepts, IDC attempts to circumvent church/state separation concerns. Beneath the sly ruse, however, is the clear implication that the “designer” is God. That’s why religious conservatives are so fanatical about promoting the inclusion of IDC theology in public schools. In October 2002, I wrote a feature article, “The Creationist Holy War,“ for infidels.org. I discussed some reasons why including IDC in the nation’s science curriculum is damaging to both science and traditional religious beliefs. The fact that IDC is damaging to science is self-evident to the scientifically educated and has been widely discussed; however, the latter assertion is less well recognized and worth reiterating here. IDC is merely a modernized version of the “Argument from Design.“ This flawed philosophy often takes the following form: Imagine you find a watch imbedded on a sandy beach. You observe the intricate construction. If any part had been placed randomly, in any other location, the watch would not function. Blind natural processes could not possibly have produced an item of such specific purpose and complexity; thus, it must have had a watchmaker. Next, the analogical leap. Creationists claim an examination of man and nature demonstrates the necessity of a God, just as an examination of the watch demanded the existence of a watchmaker. IDC adds the assertion that if any characteristic of man or nature is judged “irreducibly complex,“ meaning that it couldn’t have evolved naturally, it’s proof of a designer. It’s an example of a fallacy called “Argument from Ignorance.“ As an aside, God, paradoxically, seems to qualify as irreducibly complex. Could God have evolved naturally from “deity precursors?“ God is supposedly perfect, without limits of power and knowledge. It would seem that such a being, in accordance with the principle of irreducible complexity, would prove the existence of a “Deity designer” and that designer must have a designer, ad infinitum. If there is to be any discussion of a creator in our public schools, it’s a safe bet the Judeo-Christian image of God would be preferred by most. This image, stubbornly difficult to extract from scripture, is of an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent deity. Interestingly, such a being is not at all what IDC would elicit in the minds of our nation’s youth - quite the contrary. To understand why, we need to return to the analogy of the watch and watchmaker. Perhaps the watch can reveal something about its designer. Let’s suppose, after a comprehensive examination, we learn the watch is constructed from recycled parts left over from other machines, and some parts don’t seem to have a purpose at all. The watch keeps inaccurate time and has a very short working life before it begins to seriously malfunction and finally fail completely. Numerous inferences about the watchmaker are possible. Perhaps he didn’t try to make a good watch. Or, conceivably, he made the best possible watch with the materials available. Incompetence is a possibility. It’s also plausible that, for some unknown reason, the watchmaker intentionally built a faulty and poorly designed watch. In summary, we can say the watchmaker is either lazy, had a tight budget, was inept or intentionally produced a flawed product. As with the Argument from Design, let’s expand this watch analogy to the natural world. The watchmaker becomes God, and the watch becomes mankind and nature. Can this analogy tell us anything about God? Obviously, humans are significantly flawed. We are made of “recycled” biological material; our genome reveals abundant examples of reused DNA, seemingly borrowed from earlier forms, as well as a large amount of redundant and “switched off” genetic code. Humans have vestigial behaviors and anatomical structures (goose bumps, wisdom teeth, appendix, etc.); moreover, much of our anatomy is designed poorly for optimum function (knees, lower back, eyes, etc). Equally obvious, we are not built to last. Human beings inexorably degrade and fail over time, often in a painful and miserable decline. Therefore, assuming we are evidence of design, what judgment can we make about God? Our hypothetical deity fares no better than the watchmaker; God may be inept, lazy or simply doing his best with the materials at hand. Each of those conclusions, however, is incompatible with traditional depictions of God. Alternatively, God purposefully designed our imperfections. Under this possibility, God has the dubious honor of being directly responsible for cancer, Ebola, anthrax, HIV, birth defects, Alzheimer’s Disease, parasites, chronic pain, plagues, natural disasters and death. God would have specifically and purposefully designed a nearly infinite number of horrors and torments in both man and the natural world. This possibility turns God into a malevolent monster rather than a loving creator. Mainstream religions grapple with this “problem of evil” by attempting to deflect blame away from their deity. Original sin, Satan, and the “gift of free will” are fashionable, yet horribly flawed, efforts to remove culpability from the Almighty. However, IDC offers no attempt whatsoever to redirect blame; it places the responsibility for all suffering and all design flaws squarely on the shoulders of the designer. Educated Americans value the separation of church and state for many reasons. Central among these is an antipathy toward government defining God for all. If government requires IDC to be taught in public school science classes, it will be promoting the concept of a sadistic or flawed creator. Coupled with the fact that IDC is not a scientific theory, theists should be as outraged as scientists with the prospect of neo-creationism being imposed on our children. John Bice is an MSU staff member. He can be reached at .

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Brock United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 04:50 PM

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Thrival makes the assumption that anal sex is a common activity among gay couples. I see it as a more exotic practice that most gays don’t experience more than once or twice, if at all.

Still you gotta have some respect for those who receive it. Having it done to you hurts like hell and I am in awe of how they manage to enjoy it.

Sorry for the unpleasant imagery but he brought up a particular misconception that too many straights have about gay sex. We have multiple methods for lovemaking and usually feel just as satisfied after as anyone else, and we can feel just as loved from it.

Sex in general can be an uncomfortable, embarrassing experience unless you allow yourself to both receive and offer passion without guilt. Have safe sex always but never have sex without desiring to please your partner. That’s just wrong!

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KPatrickGlover United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 04:54 PM

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I can’t tell if you’re just being an asshole or if you really are so blinded by religion that you don’t see the difference between child molestation and sexual relations between gay men. On the chance that it’s the later, I’m going to explain. Let’s see if you can follow this.

Children are not fully developed. They lack the ability to make reasonable decisions for themselves. An adult having sexual relations with a child, regardless of gender, is manipulating that child into an act that it isn’t developed enough to understand. It’s predatory, like rape.

Relations between two adult males, regardless of what you think about it, are between consenting adults. There are no victims. Just like relations between any consenting adults.

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thrival United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 05:14 PM

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Glover: I forgot to challenge your AIDS link; all it proves is so-called experts look at and evaluate information differently and come to different conclusions. Yes some patients showed toxoplasmosis. The error in medical science is they diagnose some people by immune deficiency alone, even when HIV is absent. Well a lot of things can & do cause immune deficiency (poor nutrition and drugs and a body riddled with parasites.) So to claim someone has been debunked takes a little more. Billions of dollars in grants are at stake and dependent upon which medical model Uncle Sam buys into. On the other hand, Jesus practiced Hippocratic medicine (doctors still swear by Hippocrates’ oath but after that their ways part.) The tradition of Hippocrates survives today in the practice of naturopathy (diet & fasting) and toxicology (poisons & antidotes, the latter often found in food) & parasitology, for which there are herbs and their refined extracts to treat. Drug companies find their cures in the plant kingdom, which is just what Genesis said, “meat & medicine.“

thrival United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 05:18 PM

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Glover: So what’s wrong with predation and rape? I mean if I find a bunch of sick assholes who agree with that philosphy, where’s your moral authority to rain on their parade?

GeekMom United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 05:48 PM

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Guys, why are you even bothering?  Thribble has shown his true colors:  he’s Yet Another Ignorant, Bigoted, Self-Righteous Asshole Christian, which are a dime a dozen around here.  He’s never going to Get It because he doesn’t want to.  He wants to reinforce his smug idiocy, that’s all.  If you must enable him to indulge his pseudo-intellectual wanking, at least wear latex gloves; you don’t know WHERE he’s been (and probably neither does he).

shana Japan Posted on 02/06/2005 at 06:15 PM

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Just being a woman, or even a geekmom doesn’t make you a sex expert.

No, you are right about that.  But what makes you think that being a woman are my only credentials?  Indeed, I never claimed to be an expert on my gender alone.  (Nor did I claim to be an expert at all, simply that you’re ignorant on some basic points.)

You didn’t make the (hypothetical) baby, you were just a brooder for the DNA you’ve been given.

My body would make that baby in the same way that a lemon tree would make flowers and fruit.

I mean I really would like to see you make a baby from scratch, without the DNA technology life has entrusted you with.

But that wasn’t the point.  My morality doesn’t come from scratch either.  You haven’t commented on the origami example, and that’s because you know you have no good rebuttal.

Sure once AIDS got engineered, it passes through mucus membranes. Dr. Duesberg, a renowned virologist who appeared on the Tony Brown Journal, asserts AIDS isn’t caused by a retrovirus as claimed, but by drugs, parasites and poor nutrition, all which Africa has a lot of.

That doesn’t even make sense.  Biologists have isolated the HIV virus.  Most people who have HIV, which is a retrovirus, eventually develop AIDS.  The only ones who don’t demonstrate a lack of receptors in their t-cells where HIV attaches.  Don’t offer bull in exchange for solid research.

He even offered to inject himself with HIV to prove his point.

Offered is the key word, here.  He didn’t DO it, did he?  More’s the pity.

There are books of people who actually went from HIV positive to negative which medical science claims is “impossible,� i.e. a ‘miracle’ by their standards.

Um, evidence?  Because I, for one, won’t buy it till I see it.  But wait, there’s more:

The error in medical science is they diagnose some people by immune deficiency alone, even when HIV is absent. Well a lot of things can & do cause immune deficiency (poor nutrition and drugs and a body riddled with parasites.)

Oh, so you’re admitting that it’s immunodeficiency that’s not nec. caused by a retrovirus, not that AIDS itself is not caused by a retrovirus.  Hold onto your Ps and Qs!

I still don’t stick mine in crapholes or suck those that have. That would be stupid and unhealthy.

So, do you suck those that haven’t?  I thought you said gay people were evil or something.

People wear condoms to avoid the repercussions of such unnatural acts, but without that protection, you’d be dancing with…

Um, this is the 21st century, Trivial.  If you’re not married/in a long term relationship with someone you trust, use a condom.  Period.  No matter what you stick it in.  That’s just common sense.
I mean, in an ideal world, I could eat ice cream and never get fat.  The truth is, I have to eat in moderation and exercise.  Does that mean I should never eat ice cream?  Hell, no!
The Ani Yunwiya, commonly called the Cherokee, had horrible problems with, if I recall correctly, syphillus.  They covered the heads of their sore, disgusting penises with copper plates to protect them.  This was from plain old hetero sex.  When you have unprotected sex, you are always dancing with…
(Whatever ... is. I’m assuming you mean STDs and were too lazy to type that.)
What, are you gonna tell us now that we have to abstain?  My answer to that is, once again:
How was your evening?

Glover: So what’s wrong with predation and rape? I mean if I find a bunch of sick assholes who agree with that philosphy, where’s your moral authority to rain on their parade?

Once again, read the posts.  Predation and rape are bad.  We don’t need god to tell us that.  Would YOU like to be raped?  I didn’t think so.  Neither would I.  Tell you what, let’s make an agreement.  I won’t rape you, you won’t rape me.  And we can live together in happiness.  Simple as that.

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elwedriddsche United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 06:39 PM

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why are you even bothering?

It’s not a bother, we only pet the troll for Les’s continued amusement.

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Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
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KPatrickGlover United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 06:57 PM

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So, do you suck those that haven’t?

BWA-HA-HA-HA!

Nice one, Shana.

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thrival United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 08:19 PM

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Shana: I would be the first to admit my ignorance on lots of things, but there’s a difference between human lack of omniscience and not giving you the answer you were looking for. Then again there are things I do know and no reason to back down from them just to make you all comfortable.

Sure your body would make the baby, but how much credit does your ego deserve for that, or your moral intelligence, or even your conscious attention or effort. Beyond a short roll in the hay, it happens without your giving it a second thought, just like the lemon tree. That’s why I say it must be an outside agency because it sure isn’t you alone, or even you and your hypothetical husband. There’s a third agency here, we’ll call it life. Without life, you wouldn’t be here, your chemicals wouldn’t be holding the coherent shape of a human being. So are you the life or the meat-machine it animates? Are you what you feel or what you think? All these things change and yet ‘you’ continue so be very careful which of these if any or something else, you identify with. An origami isn’t alive, neither is a bridge, or an automobile, and yes they did require an outside agency, in this case a live human being to make them, but not you in all cases.

Yes Shana, biologists isolated HIV, but Duesberg contests the assertion that it’s responsible for AIDS. (Aquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome is a complex of symtoms not necessarily caused by or always associated with HIV.) Not all immunodeficiency is caused by HIV so it would be stupid taking AZT for AIDS if caused by say, a nutritional deficiency. (Actually is stupid to take AZT under any circumstances since cellular repair is necessary to stave off rapid aging and death.) Magic Johnson has HIV but not AIDS and some folks who had HIV don’t anymore. Proof? Gosh Shana it’s been over a decade since I did that bit of research thru interlibrary loans. I seem to recall the title “These Conquered AIDS” and several others but you might do a Books-In-Print/ ISBN subject/title search under AIDS and just look for titles that jump out at you like that. It really isn’t my job to hand you folks everything on a silver platter. I mean take some personal responsibility seeking the truth rather than perpetually gobbling the popular so-called scientific blather. There are other forces, like greed, turf and professional egos affecting what gets published and read, not to mention you all seem to have a bias against anything that hints of a God, meaning you consciously edit out a lot.

I’m hetero and celibate by choice, not because I “can’t get any” and certainly had my share, but kinda’ past that now. I think gay people are very, very confused and bondaged to some perverse ideas. After all by swine’s standards, any behavior that doesn’t favor evolution (improvement in the gene pool for long term survival of the species) can’t be good. That’s why I say all your beliefs lack coherency and consistency, much as you want to project it on me. You assert evolution is a fact working for survival and yet you defend (gene-driven?)behaviors that are evolutionary dead-ends, so yes you could call homosexuality “evil” in that sense,
likewise any behavior proven to cause ill health.

I’ve given up ice cream. It contains the protein casein, same in elmer’s glue, glops up the intestines and arteries and implicated in alzheimers; (humans don’t have the enzyme to split casein, calves do.) Frozen Yoghurt is less harmful (predigested by lactobacilli), whey even better, as all the glue has been made into cheese. So whose ignorant here, Shana?

“Predation and rape are bad.“ hmmm. Problem is I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. Are you quoting some Golden rule like “Do unto others” or some such? Just because I don’t like something doesn’t mean a person doesn’t have the right to do it. I don’t like the color of your shoes. It hurts my asthetic sensibilities. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t wear them. You’ll need a stronger argument than mere feelings or subjective sentiments why someone shouldn’t do something. I mean forget me for a moment, and imagine you’re trying to convince NAMBLA. Yes I admit its wrong, but in an unintelligent, amoral universe, the very words ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ lose meaning. In fact throw out the whole dictionary because words like ‘perverse’ become perfectly subjective to majority rule, and someday your views may not be in the majority. And if you want to stand on the US Constitution protecting your minority rights, look out because christians take credit for that, and they’re not entirely wrong.

nowiser United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 11:55 PM

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It really isn’t my job to hand you folks everything on a silver platter. I mean take some personal responsibility seeking the truth rather than perpetually gobbling the popular so-called scientific blather. There are other forces, like greed, turf and professional egos affecting what gets published and read

Ya know, I actually agree with Thrival on this point, which is why I took a quick trip over to Amazon.com, only to find that Duesberg, and the Nobel laureate who wrote the foreword to his book, were both pretty darn sloppy.  So I agree with Thrival on this one.  There are ‘qualified’ and credentialed people out there who will outright lie in order to make a fast buck, garner themselves a little fame, or push their political agenda.  Duesberg appears to be one of them.  His book contains a number of lies and/or very shoddy science.

(Aquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome is a complex of symtoms not necessarily caused by or always associated with HIV.) Not all immunodeficiency is caused by HIV

quite true.  Not all bleeding is caused by gunshot wounds.  But a gunshot wound—will—make you bleed.

AIDS is not caused by HIV.  HIV causes AIDS.  Both statements are true.  The fact that a small percentage of the population is highly resistant to HIV infection does not change the fact that HIV causes AIDS. 

Hell, there are people who are naturally resistant to the chickenpox virus.  That doesn’t mean that varicella-zoster doesn’t cause chickenpox.

But ya know, just like the theory of gravity, and the theory of evolution, it’s just viral theory, so you can always just insist ‘you haven’t—proven—anything!‘

Of course not.  Science doesn’t prove squat.  It demonstrates high statistical correlations, and infers causality.  Sometimes it’s dramatically wrong.

side note: chickenpox infection may reduce your odds of developing gliomas, the most common form of brain tumors!

http://www.whale.to/m/chick.html

Magic Johnson has HIV but not AIDS


Magic Johnson doesn’t have AIDS because he is taking AIDS medications.  And he knows it, which is why he is teaming up with Nancy Pelosi to try and increase access to these drugs for everyone/anyone who is infected.  As MJ says, “it’s not about the drugs anymore. . .  it’s about access to the drugs.“

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/aids/2001-11-06-aids-johnson.htm
http://www.house.gov/pelosi/press/releases/July03/prMagicHIV_AIDS071103.html

You assert evolution is a fact working for survival and yet you defend (gene-driven?)behaviors that are evolutionary dead-ends, so yes you could call homosexuality “evil� in that sense

Uh, homosexuals don’t breed homosexuals.  Nor do homosexuals pose a threat to the continuation of the species.  We’re reproducing at a pretty good clip.  Humans enjoy evolutionary success because we are social animals, and we can ensure group survival through cooperation.  Alone in the jungle, a human being is a pretty pathetic critter.

Homosexuality might be an evolutionary ‘dead end’ in a species of solitary hunters, say, tigers, but its impact on the survival of the human species is clearly negligible. 

so yes you could call homosexuality “evil� in that sense

Well, as we’ve already seen, your premise is deeply flawed, so it’s not that remarkable that you come to such deeply flawed conclusions.

likewise any behavior proven to cause ill health.

only if it kills you before you have a chance to ‘spread your seed.‘

I’ve given up ice cream

Good for you.  I masturbate frequently.  And I eat ice cream.  Sometimes, when I’m feeling really frisky, I’ll do them both at the same time.

nonsequitur is FUN!

“Predation and rape are bad.� hmmm. Problem is I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. Are you quoting some Golden rule like “Do unto others� or some such? Just because I don’t like something doesn’t mean a person doesn’t have the right to do it. I don’t like the color of your shoes. It hurts my asthetic sensibilities. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t wear them.

Precisely.  Glad you understand it.  Pederasty, murder, incest, rape, none of these things are—inherently—bad. 

http://www.glbtq.com/arts/pac_art.html

Oh no!  Whole cultures of child molesting bastards!  Evil, evil, evil.  But what can you expect, right, they’re just dirty savages!  Very in touch with nature, and apparently it has corrupted them badly.

LOL.

I mean take some personal responsibility seeking the truth rather than perpetually gobbling the popular so-called scientific blather. There are other forces, like

like, like, like. . .  SAI BABA!

ROFL.

I’d love to continue, because I really believe that the discussion of secular morality is where the conversation begins to get interesting, but I have to go masturbate.  And eat ice cream.

Ta ta for now.  I’m sure we’ll dance some more, though.

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shana Japan Posted on 02/07/2005 at 01:11 AM

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Beyond a short roll in the hay, it happens without your giving it a second thought, just like the lemon tree.

Perhaps it is not a conscious effort, but it’s my egg and his sperm doing the work thanks to electricity and other chemical changes.  So, I suppose if you mean that my egg and his sperm are outside agencies, then I’ll agree on that specific case.

There’s a third agency here, we’ll call it life. Without life, you wouldn’t be here, your chemicals wouldn’t be holding the coherent shape of a human being.

You still fail to present me with evidence of “life.“  I understand the basic mechanism of conception, and it doesn’t give any support to your argument.

So are you the life or the meat-machine it animates? Are you what you feel or what you think? All these things change and yet ‘you’ continue so be very careful which of these if any or something else, you identify with.

Before you get all po mo on me, let me just say that I know that “I” is a construct.  And it’s a damn useful one.  Just because I cannot be labeled as any one component of my body or emotions does not mean that god exists.

An origami isn’t alive, neither is a bridge, or an automobile, and yes they did require an outside agency, in this case a live human being to make them, but not you in all cases.

Meaning is not alive either, so not sure where you’re going with that.  Since that’s where this all started…

Yes Shana, biologists isolated HIV, but Duesberg contests the assertion that it’s responsible for AIDS. (Aquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome is a complex of symtoms not necessarily caused by or always associated with HIV.)

Well Duesberg is retarded, then.  I learned in school several times over that AIDS is the full-blown result of HIV.  HIV weakens the immune system, opportunistic diseases have free reign>>AIDS.
Google agrees.

It really isn’t my job to hand you folks everything on a silver platter.

You’re the one with the burden of proof, here, buddy.  Besides, after quite a lot of searching, Google turned up nothing.  So I’m still skeptical.

... you all seem to have a bias against anything that hints of a God, meaning you consciously edit out a lot.

Yep, we want physical evidence.  Suck it.

You assert evolution is a fact working for survival and yet you defend (gene-driven?)behaviors that are evolutionary dead-ends, so yes you could call homosexuality “evil� in that sense, likewise any behavior proven to cause ill health.

Homosexuality doesnt cause ill health.  Also, evolution is a fact in our survival.  That doesn’t mean that the “evolutionary dead ends” are a bad thing. 

Frozen Yoghurt is less harmful (predigested by lactobacilli), whey even better, as all the glue has been made into cheese. So whose ignorant here, Shana?

Nice try.  But all the sites I found on the topic were made by conspiracy theorists and they all linked to each other.  Not a single legitimate site.  But I did find an article on findarticles.com:

Food additives

“Predation and rape are bad.� hmmm. Problem is I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. Are you quoting some Golden rule like “Do unto others� or some such? Just because I don’t like something doesn’t mean a person doesn’t have the right to do it. I don’t like the color of your shoes. It hurts my asthetic sensibilities. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t wear them.

Me wearing red shoes does not impair your health.  It doesn’t kill you, and it doesn’t prevent you from taking advantage of your rights.  Predation and rape are physically harmful and can therefore be classified as wrong. 
Christians as a whole can’t really claim the constitution as their creation alone, but I won’t get into that here, suffice to say some of the men who wrote it were not Christians.
BTW, you’ll notice I didnt say no laws, I said simply that my morality comes from reason and other inputs, and not from god.

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Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 02/07/2005 at 01:39 AM

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thrival,

If you’ve never been to a particular major city, you could deny it exists. Never mind that it exists on every international map or road atlas, tourist field guides, or that you met people who actually claimed to have been there. You could assert it didn’t exist because you yourself have never been there and no interest to do what it takes to go there

That’s actually similar to a case I made earlier in this argument.  However, I couldn’t deny that the city exists, that is a belief in it’s not existence.  However, you could have no particular belief about it.  I’m sure there’s lots of places like that for me.  For example, I’m not sure if there’s a city called Delhi.  I know there’s a New Delhi, but I have no idea whether there’s actually a city named Delhi.  That doesn’t require any justification.  Now, if I were to do what you were saying and claim confidence that a city doesn’t exist despite evidence it does, such a thing would require justification.  That though isn’t an analogue to my position.  The Delhi city thing is more akin to my example.  I’ve heard people talk about Delhi, but I never saw it on a map, I’ve never been there, so I have no idea whether it is actually a city, or whether people meant New Delhi and just left out the “New” part.  That’s the type of atheism/agnosticism that I don’t think requires justification, also that’s the type of atheism/agnosticism that I would say is my position.  People talk about God, but I’ve never had any person experience of him either directly or indirectly, as such I have no idea whether he exists or not.  That position doesn’t require any justification, I just don’t know.  I mean would you ask someone to explain themselves if they said they didn’t know the answer to some particular question you ask them?  I mean say if I were to ask you what’s the densest stable compound on Earth.  Do you think I would be reasonable if I asked to justify yourself if your reply was that you didn’t know?  If you do think that such a demand would be reasonable then you’re a prick.

thrival United States Posted on 02/07/2005 at 02:48 AM

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There are ‘qualified’ and credentialed people out there who will outright lie in order to make a fast buck, garner themselves a little fame, or push their political agenda.  Duesberg appears to be one of them.  His book contains a number of lies and/or very shoddy science.

I would leave it to the reader to decide what is and what isn’t “shoddy science.“

http://www.duesberg.com/papers/ch2.html
http://www.duesberg.com/papers/index.html

Not all bleeding is caused by gunshot wounds.  But a gunshot wound—will—make you bleed.

but sometimes maybe not:

http://www.garymcleod.org/bullet.htm

“Predation and rape are bad.� hmmm. Problem is I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. Are you quoting some Golden rule like “Do unto others� or some such?

The “do unto others” quote comes from the old testament, which is the “law of the prophets.“ If you subscribe to it then you are expressing a God-centered point of view whether you know it or not
Just because I don’t like something doesn’t mean a person doesn’t have the right to do it. I don’t like the color of your shoes. It hurts my asthetic sensibilities. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t wear them.
Precisely.  Glad you understand it.  Pederasty, murder, incest, rape, none of these things are—inherently—bad. 

(Of course they are—I was expressing deep sarcasm, not agreeing with nowiser who I glean is a stupid evil bastard and probably a satanist of the first order.)

Uh, homosexuals don’t breed homosexuals. (or at all, which is a GOOD thing.)

http://www.glbtq.com/arts/pac_art.html

Oh no!  Whole cultures of child molesting bastards!  Evil, evil, evil.  But what can you expect, right, they’re just dirty savages!  Very in touch with nature, and apparently it has corrupted them badly. ...and proves absolutely nothing at all but the depravity to which humans can sink.

Glad I’m not forced to live in such a stomach-turner and most decent people would agree.

thrival United States Posted on 02/07/2005 at 03:16 AM

thrival pic

Shana: What are you talking about? Google: (milk casein) will give you lots of links.

Life is determined by chirality, molecules 100% optically active. It’s what separates you from inorganic chemicals and dead elements and it’s very special and you don’t know how it works so IT makes the baby and you just give it some basic ingredients and a ride.

http://www.ctvn.org/origins/pdf/446.pdf

RE: HIV/AIDS, Do you believe everything you learned in school? I sure don’t. For example we were taught in electricity that there’s no such thing as a free lunch, when the fact is the universe is full of free energy to be tapped.

http://www.rexresearch.com
http://www.greaterthings.com

Les United States Posted on 02/07/2005 at 06:58 AM

Les pic

Holy shit! First Sai Baba and now Free Energy?? Is there a new-age, harmonic convergence, bat-shit crazy pseudo-scientific idea that you haven’t bought into lock, stock, and barrel? It’s almost like you’re a one man all-around bad example of how to devote oneself to every silly idea that comes along because you think that’s how reality should be.

Surely you can come up with a scientist or two who hasn’t had his ideas discredited many times over already?

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

shana Japan Posted on 02/07/2005 at 07:04 AM

shana pic

The “do unto others� quote comes from the old testament, which is the “law of the prophets.� If you subscribe to it then you are expressing a God-centered point of view whether you know it or not

Maybe it says that in the bible, but the bible was written by men.  So really, all I need are humans to get this piece of wisdom.  Also, the “golden rule” is a part of many religions, not just Christianity, so there goes that point.  Bye!

BTW, I’m guessing they took that GW story out of the textbooks because it’s a FAIRYTALE.

The link on Pacific cultures is a different situation entirely.  Their sense of normalcy is completely different from ours.  I would have to see how those men feel about such a coming of age in order to determine its morality.  Children who are molested in America are never happy about it = it’s bad.  How can you miss that repeatedly?

Shana: What are you talking about? Google: (milk casein) will give you lots of links.

I tried that, too.  I got 2 pages full of links on milk allergies (which I don’t have), some links to research on the properties/origins of casein, and   1 page about the dangers of casein (and just about any other food you eat.  Maybe I should just stop eating altogether, no dangers there!)
I lick my ice cream at you, ha!

Life is determined by chirality, molecules 100% optically active. It’s what separates you from inorganic chemicals and dead elements and it’s very special and you don’t know how it works so IT makes the baby and you just give it some basic ingredients and a ride.

Do you know what chirality IS?  Actually, don’t bother.  It’s apparent that you don’t.

here

RE: HIV/AIDS, Do you believe everything you learned in school? I sure don’t. For example we were taught in electricity that there’s no such thing as a free lunch, when the fact is the universe is full of free energy to be tapped.

First of all, that PDF file was full of sensationalist bullshit.  They don’t even know what mutations are!
DELETED!

Second of all, yeah, I would believe my middle school health teacher over you any day.  Because he was rational.

Third of all, can you feel the power?  I HAVE THE POWER!!  I AM HE-RA!

Not sure what you want me to look at on rexresearch, but any site that touts Nostradamus and weather control immediately loses all credibility in my book.

Same goes for greaterthings:

This site aims to be a primary resource for you as you do your part in establishing the kingdom of God on earth, both as it pertains to the gospel as well as it pertains to a free government.

Yeah, that’s not biased.  What’s that, is that the drip, drip of sarcasm I hear?

By the Power of Greyskull!

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“Like reindeer in the sky you can.“

nowiser United States Posted on 02/07/2005 at 09:11 AM

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I’m guessing that dribble’s link is to some guy who got shot but didn’t bleed.  *yawn*  Wow, proof that gunshots are harmless!  Dr Dribble revolutionizes teh science of medicine!  Wheeee!

And in his free time, Dr. Dribble revolutionizes the philosophy of morality! 

Step right up!  Place your hand upon the brand new, shiny, icky-ometer!  This high-end piece of chirality driven new age science is the latest in evil detection!  Designed by the eminently obscure Dr. Dribble, this magnificent machine will objectively determine the degree of morality of any human behavior by registering the tiniest fluctuations in the abdominal muscles of the Master of Moral Distinctions!  Dr. Driiiiiible!!!!!

ROFL.

Oh noez, strange and icky people!  Bad bad Bad!  They are not like Me!  They are teh nazty evil boogerz!

****
Les, is Thrival within his rights to promote me to SEB first order, and pseudo-Satanist to boot, or does that have to be done at an administrative level?

Do I get a Jr. Gman badge with the promotion?

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

nowiser United States Posted on 02/07/2005 at 09:17 AM

nowiser pic

Shana, I don’t care what Dribble says, I like your red shoes!

grin

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

Brock United States Posted on 02/07/2005 at 10:41 AM

Brock pic

Kate Bush has this covered (and I don’t mean “covered” as a redo of someone elses song):

The Red Shoes

Oh she move like the Diva do
I said “I’d love to dance like you”
She said “Just take off my red shoes
Put them on and your dream’ll come true
With no words with no song
You can dance the dream with your body on
And this curve is your smile
And this cross is your heart
And this line is your path

Oh it’s gonna be the way you always thought it would be
But it’s gonna be no illusion
Oh it’s gonna be the way you always dreamt about it
But it’s gonna be really happening to ya
Really happening to ya
Really hapening to ya”

Oh the minute I put them on
I knew I had done something wrong
All her gifts for the dance had gone
It’s the red shoes they can’t stop dancing, dancing
And this curve is your smile
ANd this cross is your heart
And this line is your path

“Oh it’s gonna be the way you always thought it would be
But it’s gonna be no illusion
Oh it’s gonna be the way you always dreamt about it

CHORUS
She gotta dance, she gotta dance
And she can’t stop ‘till them shoes come off
These shoes do a kind of voodoo
They’re gonna make her dance till her legs fall off

Feel your hair come tumbling down
Feel your feet start kissing the ground
Feel your arms are opening out
And see your eyes are lifted to God
With no words, with no song
I’m gonna dance the dream
And make the dream come true
I’m gonna dance the dream
And make the dream come true

CHORUS

Call a doctor, call a priest
They’re gonna whip her up like a helicopter

Really happening to ya
Really happening to ya

You gotta dance

Kate Bush
The Red Shoes (1993
*********************

But it’s gonna be really happening to ya, thrival

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?“
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thrival United States Posted on 02/07/2005 at 11:42 AM

thrival pic

Shana:

bible written by man, yes, the old testament where “do unto others” from the torah, which Jews credit to Moses who also gave us the 10 Commandments, i.e. thou shalt not murder, bear false witness, kill, steal, etc. Moses said it was given to him by God. So what you consider human wisdom (including our judeo-christian system of laws) actually hail from one guy. Do other religions besides christianity have corollaries? Sure. Do you enjoy living in a free and civilized country? So consider where from.

“Their sense of normalcy is completely different from ours.“ So predation of the young is OK so long as they’re psychologically “prepared” for it. NAMBLA would love you. Forget about the pervs who do it, how would you feel if it were your kid? I mean they’re just initiating them to homosexuality, which ain’t so bad. I mean adults use coercion against kids all the time, like: “Go clean up your room.“  So again I’ll ask (glover too) how you would feel if it were your kid.

Here’s a good link on how to make glue from milk
http://www.iit.edu/~smile/ch9506.html and another plastic http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem00/chem00367.htm

which is what happens when milk hits stomach acid. You can do the experiment in a test tube with a little HCl.) Also, pasteurization inactivates the lipase so the fat molecule with the calcified glue enters the arterial circulation and plugs the cardiovascular piping. See: Diet for a New America by John Robbins (heir to Baskin Robbins.) Cheese (almost all glue) and butter are no better. In India they make clarified butter (ghee) by gently boiling the butter and skimming off the bubbling milk solids. While still lacking lipase, at least most of the plaquifying properties have been removed. Whey is the liquid and spray-dried portion separated from cheese manufacture, so absent all glue. But do all enjoy your ice-cream so you can continue to babble-rant against God from your future nursing homes.

While you may not like the source (http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v12/i3/chirality.asp) this quote is accurate:

“Chirality and life: Nearly all biological polymers must be homochiral (all its component monomers having the same handedness. Another term used is optically pure or 100 % optically active) to function. All amino acids in proteins are ‘left-handed’, while all sugars in DNA and RNA, and in the metabolic pathways, are ‘right-handed’.“ Also: “A further problem is that homochiral biological substances racemize in time. This is the basis of the amino acid racemization dating method. Its main proponent is Jeffrey Bada of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, California.5 As a dating method, it is not very reliable, since the racemization rate is strongly dependent on temperature and pH, and depends on the particular amino acid.6 Racemization is also a big problem during peptide synthesis and hydrolysis.7 It shows that the tendency of undirected chemistry is towards death, not life.“ So given its statistical IMprobability, life IS very special, some would even call it S-A-C-R-E-D. I don’t know why Zilch would try to further it along if not. Maybe you’ll like this link more: http://www.nyu.edu/chirality/

So what do you have against weather control? The US government has always been interested in that.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume3/chap15/v3c15-1.htm ...and http://twm.co.nz/Beard_wmod.htm

And as far as your bias against Notradamus, what you don’t know can still hurt you.

I would say your sources are biased too, against the Creator. But because they don’t mention Him, you assert they’re not. That’s prejudice by ommission. Sorry but that’s where the founding fathers thought your rights hailed (from the Declaration of Independence: “WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,“ ...etc. It was a while later before women, blacks and the local natives were included in that.)

Nowiser: So you like Shana’s red shoes. Question is, does she like: “Pederasty, murder, incest, rape, none of these things are—inherently—bad.“ I guess only she can answer that.

KPatrickGlover United States Posted on 02/07/2005 at 12:07 PM

KPatrickGlover pic

Thrival - Penn and Teller could do an entire season just off of stupid shit you believe. I have never, in my entire life, run across a more willfully ignorant and gullible human being. You should win some sort of prize, maybe a cosmic gold fruitcake or something.

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Brock United States Posted on 02/07/2005 at 12:19 PM

Brock pic

thrival won’t address me personally. He probably thinks I don’t deserve to be acknowledged since I live that “perverse lifestyle” and thereby desire sex with little boys; it comes with the territory. Actually, I don’t know whether to be hurt or relieved that he won’t recognize me.

I guess I’m just a little bothered that he can put a clean dick in his mouth and mumble about my moral perversions at the same time.

Yo thrival, I just showered and I’m naked! You got a minute?

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?“
Unknown

KPatrickGlover United States Posted on 02/07/2005 at 12:38 PM

KPatrickGlover pic

Actually, I don’t know whether to be hurt or relieved that he won’t recognize me.

I’d go with relieved…

Yo thrival, I just showered and I’m naked! You got a minute?

And take some pictures, Brock. We can send them to his church or something.

hehehe

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thrival United States Posted on 02/07/2005 at 01:56 PM

thrival pic

Brock: Sorry, no thanks, I don’t share your lifestyle.

Glover: How so? I mean nowiser says things like “Pederasty, murder, incest, rape, none of these things are—inherently—bad.â€? ...and post links of pacific cultures that introduce children/young men to homosexuality. Shana thinks that it’s only wrong because: “Their sense of normalcy is completely different from ours.  I would have to see how those men feel about such a coming of age in order to determine its morality.  Children who are molested in America are never happy about it = it’s bad.“ Well kids aren’t necessarily happy about being made to clean up their room, so by the same logic that’s bad too. (Maybe they need to be convinced that it’s normal by a pacific cultural immersion experience, then they wouldn’t feel so bad anymore, ‘cause everyone else does it.) Then there’s Brock who practices the queer lifestyle. My question, is, why don’t you volunteer your kids to NAMBLA, sort of as an eye-opening and educational ‘cultural exchange’ program? I mean what better way to help them at an early age, overcome their bigoted, willfully ignorant ideas about ‘normalcy.‘ NAMBLA would concur as you all seem otherwise to be on the same page.

Brock United States Posted on 02/07/2005 at 02:50 PM

Brock pic

I’m starting to suspect you’re a secret card carrying member of NAMBLA, thrival, because you keep asking KPG to make his children available to it.

Either that or you’re shamelessly using NAMBLA to radically associate pedophilia with adult homosexuality in other’s minds so as to discredit the value of two consenting adults choosing to have sex with one another.

Children do not intellectualize or desire sex as adults do. Adults have sex in order to bond, to create families and to express complex yearnings, among other reasons. Children have a whole world of other concepts and emotional riddles to master first and as they are impressionable and easily manipulated adults have no rights to use them as sexual playthings.
It can certainly be argued that a child cannot even consent to sex because he or she has little knowledge of what’s being consented to. I’m an adult and still sometimes I cannot be completely sure of what I’m consenting to. SAFE sex includes waiting for the appropriate age to engage in it so that you’re mentally as safe as you can be.

I don’t know why you think it’s clever to associate pedophilia with homosexuality but your attempts to damn homosexuality through desperate and disparate comparisons are embarrassing to say the least.

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