Conservatives find creative way to push creationism in school.

Posted by Les on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 at 08:26 AM. Read 6350 times. Tags: ,
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The following is a complete reprint of an artice written by John Brice for The State News and was originally published on April 15th, 2004.  It’s being reprinted here with John’s permission and remains copyrighted by The State News.

I wanted to reprint the article for a couple of reasons, first it’s a good summary of the goals of the movement to have Intelligent Design Creationism taught in our public schools, of which Michigan is one state that is considering such a move. But the main reason I wanted to reprint the article is that it includes an argument against teaching IDC in schools that I hadn’t considered previously myself and which I’m willing to bet many IDC proponents also haven’t considered before. Namely, what IDC could potentially imply about the nature of the Designer it claims is necessary. It’s a good read and I appreciate John allowing me to reprint it in whole.

    Conservatives find creative way to push creationism in school Our public schools are under attack from religious warriors crusading to inject creationism into science classes. The most recently evolved variant of creationist propaganda is known as Intelligent Design Creationism (IDC) and has been constructed with the goal of slipping into science curriculums by masquerading as a science. To pull off this feat of deception, a nebulous and unnamed “designer” replaces traditional concepts of God. By carefully avoiding direct mention of God or any Judeo-Christian concepts, IDC attempts to circumvent church/state separation concerns. Beneath the sly ruse, however, is the clear implication that the “designer” is God. That’s why religious conservatives are so fanatical about promoting the inclusion of IDC theology in public schools. In October 2002, I wrote a feature article, “The Creationist Holy War,“ for infidels.org. I discussed some reasons why including IDC in the nation’s science curriculum is damaging to both science and traditional religious beliefs. The fact that IDC is damaging to science is self-evident to the scientifically educated and has been widely discussed; however, the latter assertion is less well recognized and worth reiterating here. IDC is merely a modernized version of the “Argument from Design.“ This flawed philosophy often takes the following form: Imagine you find a watch imbedded on a sandy beach. You observe the intricate construction. If any part had been placed randomly, in any other location, the watch would not function. Blind natural processes could not possibly have produced an item of such specific purpose and complexity; thus, it must have had a watchmaker. Next, the analogical leap. Creationists claim an examination of man and nature demonstrates the necessity of a God, just as an examination of the watch demanded the existence of a watchmaker. IDC adds the assertion that if any characteristic of man or nature is judged “irreducibly complex,“ meaning that it couldn’t have evolved naturally, it’s proof of a designer. It’s an example of a fallacy called “Argument from Ignorance.“ As an aside, God, paradoxically, seems to qualify as irreducibly complex. Could God have evolved naturally from “deity precursors?“ God is supposedly perfect, without limits of power and knowledge. It would seem that such a being, in accordance with the principle of irreducible complexity, would prove the existence of a “Deity designer” and that designer must have a designer, ad infinitum. If there is to be any discussion of a creator in our public schools, it’s a safe bet the Judeo-Christian image of God would be preferred by most. This image, stubbornly difficult to extract from scripture, is of an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent deity. Interestingly, such a being is not at all what IDC would elicit in the minds of our nation’s youth - quite the contrary. To understand why, we need to return to the analogy of the watch and watchmaker. Perhaps the watch can reveal something about its designer. Let’s suppose, after a comprehensive examination, we learn the watch is constructed from recycled parts left over from other machines, and some parts don’t seem to have a purpose at all. The watch keeps inaccurate time and has a very short working life before it begins to seriously malfunction and finally fail completely. Numerous inferences about the watchmaker are possible. Perhaps he didn’t try to make a good watch. Or, conceivably, he made the best possible watch with the materials available. Incompetence is a possibility. It’s also plausible that, for some unknown reason, the watchmaker intentionally built a faulty and poorly designed watch. In summary, we can say the watchmaker is either lazy, had a tight budget, was inept or intentionally produced a flawed product. As with the Argument from Design, let’s expand this watch analogy to the natural world. The watchmaker becomes God, and the watch becomes mankind and nature. Can this analogy tell us anything about God? Obviously, humans are significantly flawed. We are made of “recycled” biological material; our genome reveals abundant examples of reused DNA, seemingly borrowed from earlier forms, as well as a large amount of redundant and “switched off” genetic code. Humans have vestigial behaviors and anatomical structures (goose bumps, wisdom teeth, appendix, etc.); moreover, much of our anatomy is designed poorly for optimum function (knees, lower back, eyes, etc). Equally obvious, we are not built to last. Human beings inexorably degrade and fail over time, often in a painful and miserable decline. Therefore, assuming we are evidence of design, what judgment can we make about God? Our hypothetical deity fares no better than the watchmaker; God may be inept, lazy or simply doing his best with the materials at hand. Each of those conclusions, however, is incompatible with traditional depictions of God. Alternatively, God purposefully designed our imperfections. Under this possibility, God has the dubious honor of being directly responsible for cancer, Ebola, anthrax, HIV, birth defects, Alzheimer’s Disease, parasites, chronic pain, plagues, natural disasters and death. God would have specifically and purposefully designed a nearly infinite number of horrors and torments in both man and the natural world. This possibility turns God into a malevolent monster rather than a loving creator. Mainstream religions grapple with this “problem of evil” by attempting to deflect blame away from their deity. Original sin, Satan, and the “gift of free will” are fashionable, yet horribly flawed, efforts to remove culpability from the Almighty. However, IDC offers no attempt whatsoever to redirect blame; it places the responsibility for all suffering and all design flaws squarely on the shoulders of the designer. Educated Americans value the separation of church and state for many reasons. Central among these is an antipathy toward government defining God for all. If government requires IDC to be taught in public school science classes, it will be promoting the concept of a sadistic or flawed creator. Coupled with the fact that IDC is not a scientific theory, theists should be as outraged as scientists with the prospect of neo-creationism being imposed on our children. John Bice is an MSU staff member. He can be reached at .

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zilch Austria Posted on 02/05/2005 at 04:45 AM

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He’s a little little man.

Brock, Brock, Brock.  What a disenchantment.  Not only are you a Hawaiianshirtist, but you’re also a sizeist.  Some of my best friends are little little.  What’s wrong with that?  Don’t equate them with someone who needs a Skydaddy to remind him to be good.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 02/05/2005 at 05:08 AM

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Brock,

Actually I just find it really funny that a person keeps responding to me, when all I’ve been really doing is suggesting that they get Hooked on Phonics (I managed to say “Hooked on Phonics” 16 times in this thread) and intimating that they’re an illiterate idiot.

Les United States Posted on 02/05/2005 at 11:32 AM

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Is it just me, or has Trivial’s responses actually become somewhat reasonable in terms of their tone if not their actual content? It seems he’s doing a bit less of the arrogant you-guys-are-so-wrong-and-I’m-so-right-hahahahahahaha stuff as of late. Is it too much to hope he might be salvageable?

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

nowiser United States Posted on 02/05/2005 at 12:08 PM

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It seems he’s doing a bit less of the arrogant you- guys- are- so- wrong- and- I’m- so- right-hahahahahahaha stuff as of late.

Well, it -is- hard to maintain that kind of attitude when a mean old Les has yanked your spiffy new Sai Baba footie pajamas down, and your ass is hanging out in the cold night air.

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 02/05/2005 at 12:17 PM

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Is it too much to hope he might be salvageable?

It’s more likely that he violates the Troll’s Prime Directive and is getting personally engaged.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

GeekMom United States Posted on 02/05/2005 at 01:41 PM

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Remember, Brock:

It’s not the size of the ship.

It’s not the motion of the ocean.

It’s whether the ship can stay in port until ALL passengers have disembarked.

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 02/05/2005 at 02:16 PM

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ouch….

zilch Austria Posted on 02/05/2005 at 02:34 PM

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GM- LOL

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
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Brock United States Posted on 02/05/2005 at 05:07 PM

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“You’re a little little man” is a line from a movie, I think, but I can’t remember which one.

Did you guys think I meant…oh hell no! I don’t even want to know why you thought that.

Here’s another quote I like too much that applies to both thrival’s nonsense and maybe even to the subject change I seem to have brought about.

“Where’d they teach you to talk like this—some Panama City “Sailor want to hump-hump bar”? Or was today getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey. Sell crazy some place else—we’re all stocked up here.“

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?“
Unknown

thrival United States Posted on 02/05/2005 at 05:49 PM

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So many crappist mentalities to demote, so little time.

Nowiser. I didn’t say homosexuality, anal sex, sex with the dead, sex with animals, pedastery are wrong—nature did. I find it perplexing why glover et al. would be mad at me for stating the obvious. The rest of us have to obey nature’s laws at risk of life & limb, so why not y’all? I’m glad you picked a name we can agree on.

But I do agree and have no sympathy for skydivers whose chutes didn’t open. As far as I’m concerned they were taking totally unnecessary risks.

Swine: well if the origin of israel can be found documented in the bible and orthodox jews credit moses for penning the torah, the first part lends credibility to the second. Further, the jews still celebrate passover. Even if the sources you respect haven’t found physical evidence to satisfy you yet, so what, who cares? Your scholarship is disingenuous and prejudicial.

Again I never denied that atheists were unable to create their own meanings, what I said was those meanings are artificial, ambiguous, arbitrary. Most of you admitted it in your defense of perverse behaviours as “normal” because you think nature has no standards/laws or you should be able to violate them with impunity, and God (if He exists) must be a very mean skydaddy to not change the laws of His universe to suit your perverse whims. There’s a lot more to sex and health than you have any clue about. I’ll point you to chinese medicine but not further detail because if you’re too lazy or biased to follow up yourselves then you really do deserve whatever you contract. And the chinese won’t feel sorry for you either.

Les: So is sai baba a pervert or not? In your ambiguous moral system, Is it OK if he is or not?

Zilch:

Let’s just see where this kind of reasoning leads us. “Lemon trees didn’t create themselves, so their flowers/lemons MUST arise from some outside source/agency.  Thrival didn’t create himself, so his fingernails/ideas MUST arise from some outside source/agency.

Thank you. I’m glad you ‘agree’ with me. The above would apply to everything man didn’t personally make himself, so your summarization is accurate (even if that wasn’t your intention.)

Brock United States Posted on 02/05/2005 at 06:21 PM

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Thinking about it some more, I’m pretty sure Helen Hunt said “You are a little little man” on the TV show Mad About You.

Is my immense admiration for Helen Hunt (not to mention Jack Nicholson) showing yet?

James L. Brooks rocks too.

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?“
Unknown

KPatrickGlover United States Posted on 02/05/2005 at 07:43 PM

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Les said: Is it just me, or has Trivial’s responses actually become somewhat reasonable in terms of their tone if not their actual content?

I think it’s just you, Les. He’s reached the point with me that I would applaud if he dropped dead tonight.

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nowiser United States Posted on 02/05/2005 at 08:24 PM

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Nowiser. I didn’t say homosexuality, anal sex, sex with the dead, sex with animals, pedastery are wrong—nature did

*sigh*

I see that you’re still using the word ‘wrong’ incorrectly.  Nature cannot and does not determine ‘wrong’-ness.  That is the sole purview of conscious beings.

It’s perfectly ‘natural’ for us to slaughter each other in fits of jealous rage.  That’s ‘natural’.  But it’s also quite ‘wrong.‘ 

what I said was those meanings are artificial, ambiguous, arbitrary

Duh.  ‘meaning’ is a symbolic social construct.  Like value.  Of course it’s artificial and ambiguous.  Like “wrong,“ which is, in it’s very essence, a value statement.

Most of you admitted it

We do more than admit it.  We assert it as fact. 

(It would bring such sweet release if you could only grasp this fact long enough to stop trying to bludgeon us into submission with your amazing powers of incomprehension).

your defense of perverse behaviours as “normal�

Excuse me?  I certainly never asserted that ‘perverse’ = ‘normal.‘  By definition, perversion is abnormal, a deviation from the “social” norm.  The important fact, the one you insistently ignore, is that deviation from a ‘social’ norm is deviation from a norm that is artificial, ambiguous and arbitrary.

[y’all] think nature has no standards/laws or you should be able to violate them with impunity

The only ‘laws’ of nature are the laws of physics.  You can’t violate them.  To do so would require, by definition, a supernatural event.  I realize that -you- think this is possible, but you’re mistaken.  And there’s a pretty big chunk of change waiting for you if you can prove me wrong.

Just get in touch with James Randi.

and God (if He exists) must be a very mean skydaddy to not change the laws of His universe to suit your perverse whims

I don’t expect the laws of physics to be suspended in the absence of deity.  In fact, I would only expect the laws of the universe to be changed if there was a god.

There’s a lot more to sex and health than you have any clue about.

Well, I’ve gotta hand it to ya, Dr. Dribble, you’ve really impressed me, so far, with your extensive knowledge of the world, natural phenomena, and miraculous ashes and gemstones!

I’ll point you to chinese medicine

Wait, you mean. . . there’s an ‘ancient Chinese secret’ that modern medicine has been missing out on?  Fools!

but not further detail because if you’re too lazy or biased to follow up yourselves then you really do deserve whatever you contract

LOL.  Ah yes.  The voice of wisdom, nyah, nyah, nyah.  I hope you get an ingrown nosehair.  You deserve it!  You are teh nazty deviant booger!

I’m growing quite fond of you Dribble.  It’s like having a trained chimp, but less stinky!  LOL

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 02/06/2005 at 02:27 AM

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thrival,

The bible, at least the old testament, where you find exodus, was written by the Jews.  It’s unsurprising that orthodox Jews and the old testament agree.  It’s because they wrote it.  It’s not prejudicial to question a claim that has no supporting evidence.  If I made some outrageous claim to you, you would ask me to prove it as well.  Exodus makes some pretty outrageous claims, not much of it is supported by physical evidence.

By your reasoning because the Egyptians claimed that the pharoahs were gods, and because neighbouring nations, such as the Ethiopians acquiesced to that belief we should hold that it must be true that the Pharoahs were gods?  If anyone’s disingenuous it’s you.

Also I am Chinese in extraction so anyone does catch VD they have the sympathy of at least one Chinese person, namely me.  Also your lack of sympathy, empathy, and compassion for your fellow human is disgusting.  If there is such a thing as God, I’m pretty sure it’s less than impressed with you.

Also it seems that you’re the one with the ambiguous moral system.  If anything it seems that we’ve tended to hold the moral high ground extending empathy and compassion to our fellows, while you preach hatred and intolerence.  You’re the one who thinks that a pedophile is the prophet bringing you the message and providing word on your moral system.  We don’t heed the teachings of a man who violates children for his own gratification.  You’re the one that needs to justify your moral failings, not us.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 08:20 AM

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KPG: A few observations, if I may. Once in a while, the obvious needs stating.

a) Do the Drivels write fact or fiction? They may personally subscribe to the views they present in public or they may not.

b) Is it a case of Trouble with Dribbles? If a few boneheads show up in quick succession or a single bonehead doesn’t have a uniform writing style, it may well be an infestation by the inmates of a dorm room. We’ve seen it before…

c) Avoid getting personally engaged. Either mercilesly ridicule the trollvals, preferably picking a single issue (like SS’s HOP) or be absolutely objective - if you want to amuse yourself, try to identify what passes as argument or opinion, answer them dry as dust, and do not allow the thrillrant to commence unless these points have been answered. Pop Tarts is pretty good with this systematic approach. Or be obscure. Make counterpoints that are a few steps ahead and above the troll. It’s okay if the trolls don’t get it.

d) If you are rude, be extravagant and verbose. If you give the impression that something hit home, you’ve fed the troll. If an insult is approached like a piece of art, score one for you.

e) Counter-troll. Give completely whacko answers or assume a position that’s even more extreme than the troll.

Hope that helps.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

KPatrickGlover United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 08:46 AM

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sigh.

I actually know all that, but knowing it and being able to adhere to it in the face of rampant ignorance and bigotry are two different things, especially when I have a few drinks in me. My temper when faced with stupidy has gotten me into trouble on more than one occasion.

But thanks for the suggestions.

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shana Japan Posted on 02/06/2005 at 09:57 AM

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There’s a lot more to sex and health than you have any clue about.

Clearly, you’re the one poorly educated on sex.  If you were more educated, you would know that heterosexual (read: vanilla) sex is the big bastard of STD contraction.  Look at how AIDS is spreading faster among heteros in Africa than in any other group.

I honestly think that if you anti-sex people had a good sex life yourselves, then you wouldn’t be so judgemental about others’.
So, how was your evening, Drivel?

Zilch:

Let’s just see where this kind of reasoning leads us. “Lemon trees didn’t create themselves, so their…

Thank you. I’m glad you ‘agree’ with me.

Hello, my name is drivel.  I never read anything that people type to me because I am made of CHEESE.
WTF!
Lemon trees DO create their flowers and fruit.  It’s quite a nifty process, too.  But let’s remove it a step.
I didn’t make myself so that origami crane I just made must have come from some outside source.  Perhaps it spontaneously appeared out of an astral plane.
Also, how does god get to be the owner of “naturalness”?  I can make babies, does that make them artificial?  Oh, you were about to feed me some crap about how I don’t make them, god makes them.  Right.  That was god having sex with my hypothetical husband…or with me?  Where exactly does he come into this?
Oh, that’s right.  HE DOESN’T.

Cause I would totally be on channel 7 if he did.
“Dude, I just had SEX with GOD.“

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Mr.Death Canada Posted on 02/06/2005 at 10:04 AM

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Thrival said

“Personally I believe we graduate to a better existence with vastly increased capacities, that is, if we used what we were given for good (nondestructive) purpose.“

I recommend you report to your local inquisitor for your flogging and execution, as your Guilty of HERESY!

  I cannot recall the exact name of this heresy but a large number of “Christians” that subscribed to this notion were murdered in the late 13 and early 14th century.

nowiser United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 12:17 PM

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Trouble with Dribble’s?  Cheese Thrival?

Nowiser: *busts out calculator, tries to calculate how much elwed and shana owe him for new keyboard, monitor, and, oh yeah, a completely ruined pair of boxers.*

I sooooo need a ROFL smiley!  LOL

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 02:12 PM

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nowiser: GOTCHA.

For smileys, see e.g. here. Upload to some free image gallery service and enjoy.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

thrival United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 02:28 PM

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Glover: Well I sure don’t hate you and I have no problem with whoever you love, (see, you jumped to conclusions about my being a bigot); but having sex (“what’s love got to do with it”) in unhealthy ways (anal or otherwise) generally produces bad results. Nature is the killer here, not me, and I’m only stating the obvious (evil duck.) It’s sort of like a child who repeatedly skins his knees. You put a band-aid on it but hope the kid eventually grows up enough to quit falling down and blaming others for his own incoordination. At least we don’t stone gays like they did in the old testament and as people they contribute in other ways to our culture, but gayness isn’t an especially rewarding behavior, at least not by “evolutionary” standards.

Swine: I’ll repeat that orthodox jews credit moses for writing the old testament. In fact they had so much respect for the original text that copies found buried in jars from various places are textually exact. The jews still celebrate passover which is a feastday giving thanks to God for their leaving egypt on short notice. The old testament also mentions nephilim or giants, skeletons of which HAVE been found in different places but the evidence more or less suppressed because their existence doesn’t fit conveniently in godless evolutionists’ biased/ bigoted “scientific” theories. So being of chinese extraction, why don’t YOU inform your compatriots what chinese medicine has to say about “bedroom diseases?“ I mean that WOULD be the compassionate thing to do. Anyway why is violating children a bad thing? I mean just because we agree that it’s bad? NAMBLA would disagree.

You cased Ellie earlier, stating that disbelief doesn’t require justification, but belief does. If you’ve never been to a particular major city, you could deny it exists. Never mind that it exists on every international map or road atlas, tourist field guides, or that you met people who actually claimed to have been there. You could assert it didn’t exist because you yourself have never been there and no interest to do what it takes to go there, and that’s your right, to be retarded. (Actually you’re pretty smart for a pig.)

Shana:

Just being a woman, or even a geekmom doesn’t make you a sex expert. You didn’t make the (hypothetical) baby, you were just a brooder for the DNA you’ve been given. I mean I really would like to see you make a baby from scratch, without the DNA technology life has entrusted you with. Sure once AIDS got engineered, it passes through mucus membranes. Dr. Duesberg,

a renowned virologist who appeared on the Tony Brown Journal, asserts AIDS isn’t caused by a retrovirus as claimed, but by drugs, parasites and poor nutrition, all which Africa has a lot of. He even offered to inject himself with HIV to prove his point. People like magic Johnson and others have the longest survival rate because they DON’T take AZT, (a drug which stops cellular repair, so if the AIDS doesn’t kill you, the AZT will.) There are books of people who actually went from HIV positive to negative which medical science claims is “impossible,“ i.e. a ‘miracle’ by their standards. Most of those who got well have common experiences: they eat spicy foods with high essential oil (antiviral) content and they quit going to church, because members of social religions made them feel guilty and somehow suppressed their immune systems. Oh I almost forgot to mention, they quit their perverse habits/lifestyles. A connection you say? “amazing.“

I still don’t stick mine in crapholes or suck those that have. That would be stupid and unhealthy. People wear condoms to avoid the repercussions of such unnatural acts, but without that protection, you’d be dancing with…

Mr. death: sure maybe was a heresy and the catholic church murdered thousands for anyone who wouldn’t swear by the nicene creed. That’s why protestants were eager to leave europe’s inquisatorial atmosphere for the new world, granted their ideas didn’t change that much, and that’s why I don’t look to fundamentalist christianity as a touchstone. On the other hand, most religions have more or less truth mixed with missinterpretations and jerrymandered falsehoods. Don’t blame divinity for the missunderstandings, misstranslations or acts of men. That’s why we have brains, to winnow truth from crap. But since most of you have nothing you look forward to, I can see why y’all are less motivated to bother. Easier to insult folks with opinions/evidence other than yours.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 03:49 PM

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It’s as if Dale Gribble from King of the Hill has come to life and started posting comments on blogs…

KPatrickGlover United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 03:51 PM

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1 - Don’t assume too much, thrival. I happen to be hetero and married. You don’t need to be gay to be offended by your opinion of gays.

2 - Duesberg has been widely discredited. Take a glance at this article http://www.aids.org/atn/a-356-06.html and scoll down about halfway until you see a heading with Desberg’s name.

3 - I still think you’re a bigoted homophobic pig. Only you could claim to not be a bigot at the top of a post and then blather about “perverse habits/lifestyles” at the bottom and not see a contradiction within.

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elwedriddsche United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 03:55 PM

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KPG, you missed a perfectly good opening. To “That’s why we have brains, to winnow truth from crap“ you could have replied “I still don’t stick mine in crapholes

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

thrival United States Posted on 02/06/2005 at 04:43 PM

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Glover: Well for an atheist, that’s a perfectly Christlike attitude you’ve adopted. The gays won’t be reproducing much, so I think you’ll agree it’s an evolutionary dead-end. It does get kind of tiring for doctors, forever trying to fix people who don’t learn from others’ mistakes. Thankfully God gives them numberless lives/chances to get it right, but nature can be a bit ruthless over the short term.

RE: “perverse habits/lifestyles” I mean someone has to call a thing for what it is. Swine thinks violating children is wrong and I would agree with that. Is it bigoted to call THAT perverse? Why that and not gay? Where did you get your moral yardstick or right to criticize NAMBLA?
That is the point I keep repeating throughout these posts. Your morality or lack thereof is totally subjective. On the other hand, Jesus did say it would be better to have a millstone placed around one’s neck and drowned, “than to scandalize one of these little ones.“ So you seem to be on Christ’s side on this one, despite your aetheism, God forbid.

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