Conservatives find creative way to push creationism in school.

Posted by Les on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 at 08:26 AM. Read 5285 times. Tags: ,
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The following is a complete reprint of an artice written by John Brice for The State News and was originally published on April 15th, 2004.  It’s being reprinted here with John’s permission and remains copyrighted by The State News.

I wanted to reprint the article for a couple of reasons, first it’s a good summary of the goals of the movement to have Intelligent Design Creationism taught in our public schools, of which Michigan is one state that is considering such a move. But the main reason I wanted to reprint the article is that it includes an argument against teaching IDC in schools that I hadn’t considered previously myself and which I’m willing to bet many IDC proponents also haven’t considered before. Namely, what IDC could potentially imply about the nature of the Designer it claims is necessary. It’s a good read and I appreciate John allowing me to reprint it in whole.

    Conservatives find creative way to push creationism in school

    Our public schools are under attack from religious warriors crusading to inject creationism into science classes. The most recently evolved variant of creationist propaganda is known as Intelligent Design Creationism (IDC) and has been constructed with the goal of slipping into science curriculums by masquerading as a science. To pull off this feat of deception, a nebulous and unnamed “designer” replaces traditional concepts of God.

    By carefully avoiding direct mention of God or any Judeo-Christian concepts, IDC attempts to circumvent church/state separation concerns. Beneath the sly ruse, however, is the clear implication that the “designer” is God. That’s why religious conservatives are so fanatical about promoting the inclusion of IDC theology in public schools.

    In October 2002, I wrote a feature article, “The Creationist Holy War,” for infidels.org. I discussed some reasons why including IDC in the nation’s science curriculum is damaging to both science and traditional religious beliefs. The fact that IDC is damaging to science is self-evident to the scientifically educated and has been widely discussed; however, the latter assertion is less well recognized and worth reiterating here.

    IDC is merely a modernized version of the “Argument from Design.” This flawed philosophy often takes the following form: Imagine you find a watch imbedded on a sandy beach. You observe the intricate construction. If any part had been placed randomly, in any other location, the watch would not function. Blind natural processes could not possibly have produced an item of such specific purpose and complexity; thus, it must have had a watchmaker.

    Next, the analogical leap. Creationists claim an examination of man and nature demonstrates the necessity of a God, just as an examination of the watch demanded the existence of a watchmaker. IDC adds the assertion that if any characteristic of man or nature is judged “irreducibly complex,” meaning that it couldn’t have evolved naturally, it’s proof of a designer. It’s an example of a fallacy called “Argument from Ignorance.”

    As an aside, God, paradoxically, seems to qualify as irreducibly complex. Could God have evolved naturally from “deity precursors?” God is supposedly perfect, without limits of power and knowledge. It would seem that such a being, in accordance with the principle of irreducible complexity, would prove the existence of a “Deity designer” and that designer must have a designer, ad infinitum.

    If there is to be any discussion of a creator in our public schools, it’s a safe bet the Judeo-Christian image of God would be preferred by most. This image, stubbornly difficult to extract from scripture, is of an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent deity. Interestingly, such a being is not at all what IDC would elicit in the minds of our nation’s youth - quite the contrary. To understand why, we need to return to the analogy of the watch and watchmaker. Perhaps the watch can reveal something about its designer.

    Let’s suppose, after a comprehensive examination, we learn the watch is constructed from recycled parts left over from other machines, and some parts don’t seem to have a purpose at all. The watch keeps inaccurate time and has a very short working life before it begins to seriously malfunction and finally fail completely.

    Numerous inferences about the watchmaker are possible. Perhaps he didn’t try to make a good watch. Or, conceivably, he made the best possible watch with the materials available. Incompetence is a possibility. It’s also plausible that, for some unknown reason, the watchmaker intentionally built a faulty and poorly designed watch. In summary, we can say the watchmaker is either lazy, had a tight budget, was inept or intentionally produced a flawed product.

    As with the Argument from Design, let’s expand this watch analogy to the natural world. The watchmaker becomes God, and the watch becomes mankind and nature. Can this analogy tell us anything about God?

    Obviously, humans are significantly flawed. We are made of “recycled” biological material; our genome reveals abundant examples of reused DNA, seemingly borrowed from earlier forms, as well as a large amount of redundant and “switched off” genetic code. Humans have vestigial behaviors and anatomical structures (goose bumps, wisdom teeth, appendix, etc.); moreover, much of our anatomy is designed poorly for optimum function (knees, lower back, eyes, etc). Equally obvious, we are not built to last. Human beings inexorably degrade and fail over time, often in a painful and miserable decline. Therefore, assuming we are evidence of design, what judgment can we make about God?

    Our hypothetical deity fares no better than the watchmaker; God may be inept, lazy or simply doing his best with the materials at hand. Each of those conclusions, however, is incompatible with traditional depictions of God.

    Alternatively, God purposefully designed our imperfections. Under this possibility, God has the dubious honor of being directly responsible for cancer, Ebola, anthrax, HIV, birth defects, Alzheimer’s Disease, parasites, chronic pain, plagues, natural disasters and death. God would have specifically and purposefully designed a nearly infinite number of horrors and torments in both man and the natural world.

    This possibility turns God into a malevolent monster rather than a loving creator. Mainstream religions grapple with this “problem of evil” by attempting to deflect blame away from their deity. Original sin, Satan, and the “gift of free will” are fashionable, yet horribly flawed, efforts to remove culpability from the Almighty. However, IDC offers no attempt whatsoever to redirect blame; it places the responsibility for all suffering and all design flaws squarely on the shoulders of the designer.

    Educated Americans value the separation of church and state for many reasons. Central among these is an antipathy toward government defining God for all. If government requires IDC to be taught in public school science classes, it will be promoting the concept of a sadistic or flawed creator. Coupled with the fact that IDC is not a scientific theory, theists should be as outraged as scientists with the prospect of neo-creationism being imposed on our children.

    John Bice is an MSU staff member. He can be reached at .

Comments:

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*** Dave United States Posted on 04/20/2004 at 10:10 AM

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An interesting article.  Yes, Argument from Design tends to be circular, since it assumes knowledge of what’s designed in the first place, which is what it then purports to prove.

The issue of how one addresses the flaws of the material world, or the Problem of Evil, or whatever, isn’t something new brought up by IDC, of course.  For that matter, it’s certainly something that would have come up in the past when Creationism (baldly) was taught.

Though of course in that context, it would have been coupled with the religious arguments—sin, the Devil, free will, etc., which address it (to what degree of success depending on the observer, of course).

The Watchmaker hypothesis, or IDC, or whatever they’re call it these days, fits better into an 18th C Deism mold, which many of the Founding Fathers believed in.  That’s probably not the target concept the IDC proponents want, either—a distant watchmaker who built the whole mess and now sits back and watches it work.  After all, watchmakers don’t intervene to manually make the works go, or change the mechanism’s workings in answer to the gears’ prayers, or anything like that. 

The writer’s final point is correct.  The more that the government gets involved in formally proposing and defining God, the greater the problems that ensue.  After all, governmental social tinkering is hardly an unmitigated success.  And, as we can see in Europe (and in Latin America), when the Church becomes an arm of the Government, then when the Government changes (or gets discredited or gets thrown out), the damage redounds to the Church, too.

Bad business all around.  And I say that as someone who believes in a Designer and Creator, but who’d never want to have that taught in schools as an alternative (or rival or even analog) to evolution and current scientific cosmology.

did United States Posted on 04/20/2004 at 01:28 PM

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Les, do you know the status of the two bills in the MI legislature? I haven’t seen much, if any, news on the subject lately.

The article is excellent, and I’m adding it to my anti-creationism tool kit. Unfortunately, the subject seems to cause many otherwise intelligent people to lose all grasp of logic, so blunt instruments are the only tools that have any significant effect.

did

JoshMan3D United States Posted on 04/20/2004 at 02:55 PM

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You know, I was in the middle of writing a long entry about how the Watchmaker metaphor is so stupid in the first place, but I ended up losing inspiration for it because I don’t think I really need to explain it.  The article took a pretty good angle at it too.

All I can say, though, is that Creationist beliefs are stupid and completely without any grounding whatsoever.  Watches don’t have an evolutionary chain leading up to an end result; so long as you’re speaking in terms of use, not complexity.  Watches and time-keeping instruments have always held the same use over time, despite their growing levels of complexity.  Humans, however, started out as any other animal, and then found their own niche as sentient beings capable of using their environment completely to their advantage.

Watches are tools.

It’s apples an oranges, to use the cliche.  In short, Creation “theory” is bullshit.  If anybody wants to argue with me at length about it, my screen name on Instant Messanger (AOL) is JoshMan3D.

nunyabiz United States Posted on 04/20/2004 at 04:16 PM

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http://religion.aynrand.org/faith_ed.html

Religion destroys the “thinking” mind

Ingolfson Germany Posted on 04/20/2004 at 05:21 PM

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Actually, I think intelligent design is a pretty nifty theory. It can even be modified to overlap with evolution - making God the long-ago creator of the ‘syntax/grammar’ of evolution (and of natural laws and such). You could believe in both at the same time (with the above limitations on Gods character). Obviously thats not what IDC proponents want wink

As an aside:

The ‘why would God be this cruel to his creations’-question is probably one of the oldest questions in religion. I could think of a number of answers, many obviously not first created by myself (and don’t believe in any of them - as I have stated recently, I’m an agnostic):

a) God IS cruel and vindicative or at least uncaring and/or impulsive. Why shouldn’t he be? Most ‘pagan’ Gods where thus. And in a more serious vein, there are enough humans like that, so why should God be different? Because he is more powerful? There’s lots of cruel, powerful people in the world, maybe more than cruel, weak ones. Because he is wiser? Would a God *have* to be wiser than we are? Or only more powerful? Even if he was wiser, why should that automatically make him kind and just?

b) God is testing his creations. Maybe in the whole of the universe, in the life of our eternal or at least *very* long-lived souls, maybe there all the pain that the most wretched life here on Earth causes is only a pinprick of pain, no more the chinned knees you get from learning to walk.

c) We are too insignificant. Far from being the pinnacle of creation, we just happened (see ‘syntax’, above) or were an afterthought. Or are not ‘worthy’ yet in our stage. Maybe the universe is so full of better and more succesful life that we are not really important. Not exactly a fitting modus operandi for a Christian-type creator either.

In my mind, b) makes the most sense when trying to reconcile monotheistic faiths with reality. Also, I do *not* think that the ‘free will’ argument is that flawed. If God kept helping us or protecting us from ourselves (even in ways totally benevolent for all) it would still be interfering. A bit like an eternally over-protective parent. And if there’s a heaven to await everyone who is reasonably good at heart, there’s no permanent harm done in allowing free will and the resulting chaos.

And now, I’ll go to bed. Because I *have* to get up early tomorrow and free will is not going to help me much there wink

xade Australia Posted on 04/20/2004 at 08:15 PM

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I thought evolution couldn’t exist cause it violate this little fellow

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God…

And if that *is* the case, would you accept that god has been evolving to.

And out of your three points, if we are in His image, what do you think would happen to one of us who had absolute power? how does that saying go… something about corrupting absolutely… So I think you would have to lock in A. God is cruel.

JoshMan3D United States Posted on 04/20/2004 at 11:27 PM

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Or..... D: God doesn’t exist, and we’re on our own.  Seems a lot simpler to me.

Les United States Posted on 04/21/2004 at 08:56 AM

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did, I’m afraid I’ve not heard anything more on them lately myself. I plan on tracking down where they stand soon, though.

 Signature 

When one reads Bibles, one is less surprised at what the Deity knows than at what He doesn’t know.
-- Mark Twain

Ingolfson Germany Posted on 04/21/2004 at 12:39 PM

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Xade - not all Christians need to take the bible literally. ‘In his image’ could mean a lot more than just ‘looks like him’ - maybe it means ‘being able to think’ or ‘having a conscience’ or simply ‘being alive’.

Or he could have ‘stacked the deck’ so that we had to evolve.

As to option option ‘D’ - you are right, JoshMan3D. D is for default, and is what I believe. But I was trying to explain under what circumstances ID could make sense.

deadscot United States Posted on 04/21/2004 at 03:53 PM

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Great article. 

I believe that lower-mid level grades should only focus on science which we know to be true.  (Tested and proven.) I have no problem with multiple theories being presented at higher grade levels.

I grew up in a fanatically religious environment and thrived on debate.  One of the things I loved to torture my father with was this…

Suppose an omnipotentent being created dinosaur bones and footprints just to amuse humans?

Twenty years later they still pray for me daily.

Spocko United States Posted on 04/21/2004 at 04:14 PM

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Yes, theory should be taught in science class.
Creationism should be mentioned in Mythology 101 where it belongs.

Actually, it looks to me like a whole lot of people need to be taught exactly what -science- is!

JoshMan3D United States Posted on 04/21/2004 at 07:18 PM

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The problem with teaching Creation as a theory is the fact its not even a theory - there’s no tests even REMOTELY proving that it’s right, and what’s more shocking is the plethora of fake “evidence” out there to prove that it is.  As Les has said before, it’s really more of a hypothesis; I wouldn’t even give it THAT much creadit.  If the definition of hypothesis is an EDUCATED guess, then I could never consider it as thus.

The Big Bang is a theory.  Relativity is a theory.  To put Creationism in the same field is an insult not only to science, but to the rest of our society.

deadscot United States Posted on 04/22/2004 at 12:01 PM

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Teaching of theories and/or hypothesi encourage free thought regardless of the amount of ‘hard’ evidence presented.  Obviously this can be taken to the extreme.

I would categorize Relativity as a theory,
Big Bang as a hypothesis and
Creationism as speculation with the definition of speculation as the following:

1.  A hypothesis that has been formed by speculating or conjecturing (usually with little hard evidence)

2.  An investment that is very risky but could yield great profits

Spocko United States Posted on 04/22/2004 at 12:55 PM

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Theory and hypothesis are basically synonyms, no need to differentiate here. The goal is to explain something. What is important is how the theory/hypothesis holds up under the scrutiny of the scientific method.

Creationism fails miserably where the Big Bang, Relativity, and Evolution remain the most likely explanation for the observed data.

JoshMan3D United States Posted on 04/22/2004 at 06:00 PM

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I wouldn’t consider the Big Bang to be a mere hypothesis, though, considering the evidence that points towards it.

I’m not going to go too far into the subject itself, but I’ll use an example that we use to determine what’s happened in our universe’s past.  Looking into a powerful telescope or radio telescope is the equivalent of looking back in time, considering the speed of X-rays, light, and gamma rays and how long it takes to travel such an incredibly long distance.  We can only see so far back into the universe because at a certain point, there are little to no stars.  In the same area, we see a huge amount of radioactivity, remnants of what we think to be an enormous explosion.

And what would this explosion be?  Why, the Big Bang, of course!  This is why it’s widely considered a theory, for not only is it an educated guess, but it has a lot of evidence pointing to it too.  There is the issue, however, of the galaxies moving faster and faster away from each other (as opposed to slowing down from gravitational pull, or even staying at the same speed due to lack of kinetic energy, as the laws of physics would normally prove), but that’s an entirely different confusing matter (along with dark matter, antineutrinos, and the like).

I’m not opposed to learning the whole “speculation”, as you call it, of Creation, but presenting it in a scientific envirionment, like a SCIENCE class, for example, is not just stupid; it’s bullshit.  It’s more of a subject for Theology or Social Studies.

And Spocko?  Theory and hypothesis are DEFINITELY NOT synonyms.  A hypothesis is a guess using a reasonalbe amount of background knowledge as a solution to a problem (typically in an experiment).  A theory requires repeated evidence from tests and experiments to be considered thus.  That’s why some would consider Creation to be a hypothesis - but then again, it can’t be tested, cannot be proven wrong, and therefore is not one.

Spocko United States Posted on 04/22/2004 at 07:28 PM

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All my sources treat theory and hypothesis as generally synonymous (one dict even lists them as synonymns) - my point is that there is no need to pick nits about it. Creationism, ID, and IC, for that matter, are easily squashed ideas shown in the light of science and do not rate being called theory or hypothesis.

JoshMan3D United States Posted on 04/22/2004 at 07:58 PM

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True, Spocko.  However, English has a nasty habit of using words in multiple senses.  Theory and hypothesis, in the English language alone, are both considered educated guesses.

However, scientifically (and this is established in clear if you take any laboratory science class), theory and hypothesis are defined differently, in the way I mentioned before.  It’s a little nitpicky, yeah, but that’s just how they refer to it, as to categorize the validity of new ideas in the science world.

VernR United States Posted on 04/22/2004 at 08:12 PM

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It would seem that such a being, in accordance with the principle of irreducible complexity, would prove the existence of a “Deity designer” and that designer must have a designer, ad infinitum.

You can’t fool me — it’s turtles all the way down (or would it be up).

The Missouri legislature also has legislation pending that would introduce IDC into standard science instruction. The bill is in committee, has not yet been scheduled for hearings, and is not yet on the house calender. However, the sponsor has specified 8/28/04 as the ‘target effective date’.

Here are a few quotes from the bill to give a sense of what the IDC proponents are attempting to force into public school science curricula. The first two are from the three pages of definitions.

[list]"Scientific theory”, an inferred explanation of incompletely understood phenomena about the physical universe based on limited knowledge, whose components are data, logic, and faith-based philosophy. The inferred explanation may be proven, mostly proven, partially proven, unproven or false and may be based on data which is supportive, inconsistent, conflicting, incomplete, or inaccurate. The inferred explanation may be described as a scientific theoretical model;[/list]

So much for the National Academy of Science definitions.
http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/introduction.html (bottom of page.)

[list]"Destiny", the events and processes that define the future of the universe, galaxies, stars, our solar system, earth, plant life, animal life, and the human race and which may be founded upon faith-based philosophical beliefs;[/list]

Cosmology and biology become Kismet.

This is from the requirements for course material

[list]If scientific theory concerning biological origin is taught, biological evolution and biological intelligent design shall be taught and given equal treatment. Other scientific theory or theories of biological origin may be taught and given equal treatment. If biological intelligent design is taught, any proposed identity of the intelligence responsible for earth’s biology shall be verifiable by present-day observation or experimentation and teachers shall not question, survey, or otherwise influence student belief in a nonverifiable identity within a science course;[/list]

Can’t tell the students that some of the course material is hogwash.

Textbooks purchased after January 1, 2006 have to be IDC compliant. This part of the bill provides for interim course materials.

[list]The state commissioner of education shall appoint a temporary committee of no fewer than five individuals who are knowledgeable of science and supportive of intelligent design to serve without compensation. The committee shall develop supplemental textbook material for interim use by schools for the teaching of standard science and biological intelligent design by September 1, 2005. Interim textbook material shall be accessible for copying on the department of elementary and secondary education Internet web site without cost or restriction.[/list]

Notice that members of the temporary committee need not have any real scientific qualifications. They only have to be knowledgeable, whatever that means. Oh, and you get what you pay for.

OBTW, after enactment, superintendents, principles, and teachers can be fired for not complying with the provisions of the code.

Spocko, not so easily quashed if a right wing legislative majority is running with the bit in their teeth. Also, take a look at the link I referenced for the NAS definitions of theory and hypothesis. Les uses the online Wickpedia dictionary — that source provides somewhat longer definitions.

Spocko United States Posted on 04/22/2004 at 08:59 PM

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Yes I do know the precise meaning - I did caveat with “basically” and “generally” BTW. I’m just saying theory and hypothesis strive to explain reality and can be proved or disproved. I think we got off track a bit here.

VernR - you’re right about those right-wingers, they don’t give a damn about what is theory, hypothesis, or fairy tale as long as they keep Pat Robertson’s flock votin’ red ;o)

nunyabiz United States Posted on 04/22/2004 at 10:59 PM

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here’s something to make you get on your knees and dry heave

http://home.att.net/~sheryl3/PUTGODBACK/put.htm

deadscot United States Posted on 04/22/2004 at 11:56 PM

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Glad to see this thread continue.  I agree with the point that ID and creationism warrant no instruction in science courses.

Social studies does seem like an appropriate place to introduce the concept.

I do stand by big bang being a hypothesis though based in this definition:

“A tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena.”

Exposure to various thoughts is always a good thing but when it is being mandated in such a way that this bill has laid out, well… that’s just scary.

nunyabiz United States Posted on 04/23/2004 at 06:54 AM

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In physics and other science disciplines, the words “hypothesis,” “model,” “theory” and “law” have different connotations in relation to the stage of acceptance or knowledge about a group of phenomena.

An hypothesis is a limited statement regarding cause and effect in specific situations; it also refers to our state of knowledge before experimental work has been performed and perhaps even before new phenomena have been predicted. To take an example from daily life, suppose you discover that your car will not start. You may say, “My car does not start because the battery is low.” This is your first hypothesis. You may then check whether the lights were left on, or if the engine makes a particular sound when you turn the ignition key. You might actually check the voltage across the terminals of the battery. If you discover that the battery is not low, you might attempt another hypothesis ("The starter is broken”; “This is really not my car.")

The word model is reserved for situations when it is known that the hypothesis has at least limited validity. A often-cited example of this is the Bohr model of the atom, in which, in an analogy to the solar system, the electrons are described has moving in circular orbits around the nucleus. This is not an accurate depiction of what an atom “looks like,” but the model succeeds in mathematically representing the energies (but not the correct angular momenta) of the quantum states of the electron in the simplest case, the hydrogen atom. Another example is Hook’s Law (which should be called Hook’s principle, or Hook’s model), which states that the force exerted by a mass attached to a spring is proportional to the amount the spring is stretched. We know that this principle is only valid for small amounts of stretching. The “law” fails when the spring is stretched beyond its elastic limit (it can break). This principle, however, leads to the prediction of simple harmonic motion, and, as a model of the behavior of a spring, has been versatile in an extremely broad range of applications.

A scientific theory or law represents an hypothesis, or a group of related hypotheses, which has been confirmed through repeated experimental tests. Theories in physics are often formulated in terms of a few concepts and equations, which are identified with “laws of nature,” suggesting their universal applicability. Accepted scientific theories and laws become part of our understanding of the universe and the basis for exploring less well-understood areas of knowledge. Theories are not easily discarded; new discoveries are first assumed to fit into the existing theoretical framework. It is only when, after repeated experimental tests, the new phenomenon cannot be accommodated that scientists seriously question the theory and attempt to modify it. The validity that we attach to scientific theories as representing realities of the physical world is to be contrasted with the facile invalidation implied by the expression, “It’s only a theory.” For example, it is unlikely that a person will step off a tall building on the assumption that they will not fall, because “Gravity is only a theory.”

ID or Creationism don’t even come close to a ‘Theory” and NEVER will.
They are at best a Hypothesis.
Funny thing ID & Creationism are really what I would call a Hypothesis of mysticism or Mythology as they most certainly have NOTHING to do with Reality of how and why we are here, no more than Zeus & flying unicorns.

Here is “The Scientific Method” of which neither Creationism nor ID could EVER make it past step 2
and the difference between step 2 “hypothesis” and step 5 “Theory” is HUGE.

http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node6.html#SECTION02121000000000000000

Spocko United States Posted on 04/23/2004 at 06:55 AM

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nunyabiz - that was indeed sickening, these putgodback fools really need to go back to their American History class

deadscot - since we’re talking about the Big Bang, then it IS important to differentiate between theory and hypothesis. The Big Bang is considered a theory and not just an hypothesis because the amount of evidence for it is pretty good…

1. We can observe radiation left over from the Big Bang in the form of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) and even see fluctuations in that from which it is believed the galaxies formed.

2. The expansion of the universe implies that at some time in the past everything must have been a lot closer together and hotter, which sounds a lot like the Big Bang to me!

3. In GR (General Relativity), there is a theory called the singularity theory which can be used to prove that there must have been a singularity (ie. a Big Bang) at some point in the past for every possible way we know to describe the Universe.

(sorry I can’t remember who I’m quoting here)

PS. Bill O’Reilly doesn’t “believe” in the Big Bang, it’s just bullshit. What an idiot!

JoshMan3D United States Posted on 04/23/2004 at 11:37 AM

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Just to clarify, nunyabiz (and by the way, great explanation of the definitions): the only difference between a theory and a law is that a law is something that has never been and is assumed impossible to be contradicted.  Like Newtons laws of physics, for example.  Theories are explanations for certain things, but are not necessarily laws yet, as there are still instances where they could be contradicted and have not been fully tested yet.

And as for that site that you showed us: not only was it sickening, but they added MUSIC.  Or rather MUZAK, crappy elevator crap, composed by some guy so incomprehensibly religious he had to make music WITHOUT ANY words (or creativity).  These are the people who are practically destroying this country - it scares me to see how many signatures they actually have…

deadscot United States Posted on 04/23/2004 at 03:24 PM

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Thanks for that link.  I needed to lose a couple of pounds.

Why is it so necessary for these people to feel the need to impose their belief systems on others?

It’s easy to see here that you can enter differences of opinion, discuss it walk away more learned for your time.

Based on nunyabiz’s thread I began to ponder just what a final exam in Physics would look like for the ID/creationism course?

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