counterpoint, and I expect to be hit hard for this one:  Nativity Scenes and crosses.

(For the record, I’m atheist)

Now I’ll admit up front that nativity scenes and crosses aren’t a conservative/liberal issue; however, the argument is usually divided down idealogical lines.  So, how about it:  If a nativity scene offends an atheist, or if a cross (such as Mount Soledad’s) offends, how about you just don’t pay attention to it?

Ben, I assume you’re trying to illustrate how an atheist would feel (indignant) if they heard “don’t pay attention to it” in response to a religious display as is being suggested the conservatives do over the Starbuck’s quips.

First, it depends on where the nativity or cross is displayed as to the “offense” taken. I understand this Mount Soledad cross is on public land. Taxpayer owned land. And that’s a no no. Same for nativity scence on public land.

On church property or private property? Knock yourself out. Put up crosses and Disco Jesus for all I care.

I don’t think you’re going to run across many atheists or freethinkers that would actually be offended by a cross displayed on church or private property, as most are fairly intelligent people. But move the same cross 20 feet to a public space (city park?) and people have every right to be offended. They SHOULD be offended.

Now as for Starbucks vs. your ‘don’t pay attention to it’ argument...apples and oranges.

Starbucks is not a taxpayer-owned entity, so their displays or promotions are not comparable to the displays on public lands or with public funds. They’re a company and can support/promote anything they like. If people don’t like it, they can stop buying their coffee. And it really is that simple. People have no justification for getting offended. No one is forcing them to buy anything. They CHOOSE to be a patron at Starbucks (or not).

I can’t stop being a taxpayer if I don’t support the cross they put up in a public park. But I can stop being a Starbucks patron if I don’t like the political bent they’re taking on their cups. That’s the difference.

Finally, here we have unmistakeable proof of the existence of a VLC (Vast Leftwing Conspriracy)- Al Franken on millions of coffee cups! No wonder godfearing Republicans are trembling in their leisure suits!

Now I understand why we have ID in classrooms and laws against gay marriage- conservatives are scrambling madly to hold onto the tattered remains of their intellectual (to use the word loosely) domain in American thought, before all is swept away in the overwhelming tsunami of liberal coffee cup quips.

Ben, that’s just silly.  How about comparing it to exactly the same situation:  if Starbucks printed conservative sayings on their cups?  Those of us who find Ann Coulter to be a good argument in favor of abortion would just either have to close our eyes when drinking out of the cup, or find a better brand to support.  That’s all.

(Thank goodness I don’t like coffee.  This way I don’t get drawn into any ideological morasses against my will.)

Great counter-post brandi.  You summed it up nicely.

I think I sprained my eye rolling it at this story. My favorite part?

Yvette Nunez, a 27-year-old Republican from Tampa, said she hadn’t noticed the quotes on her weekly caramel machiattos. On “tall” cups, the text is obscured by a cardboard sleeve.

“There are a lot of great conservative quotes, but oh well,” she said. “I’m not surprised. I’m used to being under-represented.”

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Under-represented. Apparently the big guy in the White House who’s representing predominantly YOUR values isn’t quite enough. Greedy wankers.

So why don’t they open their own Jesus Juice/Caffenated Christ coffee chain?  Put Scripture on the cups, Holy Water mister at the door, Ann Coulter calendars, buddy Jesus from “Dogma” outside the door.  Maybe Family Christian Bookstores and the like should put in a coffee pot like every auto shop. 

Right wing capitalists who apparantly can’t compete with a liberal coffee chain.

Not like I would spend $4 for a cup of coffee, I don’t even like to spend the $1 for a refill of my 20oz mug at Einstien’s.  If I was worried about the “Ab-fab” image that Starschmuck’s gives, I’d just buy one of their branded travel mugs and put my cheap Columbian brew in it. 

I like that extra kick when you brew the coffee that was used to cover up the coke. 

If people don’t like it, they can stop buying their coffee. And it really is that simple. People have no justification for getting offended. No one is forcing them to buy anything. They CHOOSE to be a patron at Starbucks (or not).

Hmmm. Actually, I think complaining openly is a more rational first step then simply not buying the product anymore. It lets the company know that you have a problem with what they are doing and gives them a chance to rectify the situation without losing a customer.

That’s a generic answer to the “don’t like it, stop buying it” issue. I don’t drink coffee, so it doesn’t matter a bit to me. Now if someone started slapping political rhetoric on my beer mug (regardless of what side of the aisle it represented) I’d be annoyed enough to complain to my local bar owner about it. I’m not a head-in-the-sand kind of guy, but I prefer to get my news and political commentary when and where I look for it and not thrust at me at random moments.

Well, being “offended” seems to be our national pasttime.

Good reply Brandi—just what I was thinking.

In-N-Out’s cups & wrappers have scriptural citations printed on them. I haven’t patronized their restaurants in a good 20+ years.  Besides, I finally figured out that for me, their burgers are best eaten while sitting on a toilet ("In-N-Out" is exactly right!) - which is perhaps just a reaction to getting a side order of salvation with a fast food meal. Ugh, I get stomach cramps just thinking about it.

Brandi beat me to the punch and there’s not much I can add to what she said other than to say that I do think folks have a right to be offended by the coffee cups if they want to, but if it’s that big of a problem for them they should let the business know with the most powerful statement they can make and that’s to close their wallet and take their business elsewhere.

There’s a local business that sells vacuums that has painted their building with a big American flag mural and has all manner of religious slogans all over the place including a sign out front that spins in the wind that says JESUS CHRIST - HE IS RISEN! Way more blatant than just putting quotes on the side of a coffee cup. Guess where I won’t be buying a vacuum anytime soon? For all I know they may be one of the best vacuum shops in the world, but they’re obviously more concerned with pushing their religious ideology than their vacuums so I suppose I’ll never know.

I’m actually very amused every time I drive by the place and I keep meaning to stop and take a few pics. I’ll probably get arrested as a terror suspect who’s casing the joint if I do.

Brandi beat me to the punch and there’s not much I can add to what she said

Sorry Les! I was up late procrastinating on taxes. It was very important that I address this issue before getting back to my pile of receipts.

I wonder how many of those conservatives are complaining about In ‘N Out Burgers’ pasting Bible verses to their cups and wrappers?  Probably not too many…

I wonder how many of those conservatives are complaining about In ‘N Out Burgers’ pasting Bible verses to their cups and wrappers?  Probably not too many…

Probably it increases their sales to fundies. 

If I were picking quotes for the Starbucks’ cups, I’d include Bible verses - mostly from the wisdom literature.  It would drive the fundies (who know it’s a “liberal” company) crazy.  But they’d come in and buy coffee to see if they get a Bible verse - heh - heh-heh, bwa-HA-HA-HA-HA!  Like hamsters pressing a lever to get a pellet.

To be fair, looking at the actual article, the amount of bitching about the quotations is fairly minimal (the Salcido quote is the most specific).  Most drinkers shrug and say it won’t impact their purchasing decisions.

If enough people were to complain, and it impacted sales, I suspect that the quotes would go (ditto the In-and-Out scripture).  But, then, that’s the free market, and I’d rather see it work that way than have the Government step in and dictate what can be quoted on food packaging ...

Re Les and the vacuum store:  here in Glendale there’s a copy store called Trinity Worldwide Reprographics that is exactly like that.  Here’s the first paragraph of their mission statement:

As we live in these “End Times” with an ever increasing censorship of Christ, a rise in international terrorism, and on-going corporate scandals, Trinity Worldwide Reprographics Inc. was formed to be a BUSINESS that serves as a MINISTRY to provide spiritual guidance to its employees and customers by spreading the peace and joy that we all receive through the gospel message of Jesus Christ.

I’m not sure what they mean by “end times” ... are they saying the apocalypse is at hand?  If the world were coming to an end, making copies would be the LAST thing on my mind!

Oddly enough, they share the building with the local Scientology branch (I think Scientology is on the floor above). 

--Joe

Brandi has reiterated my own concerns.

I do not object to Christians posting the Ten Commandments in their church yards or lobbies, in their living rooms, basements or garages. Nor do I object to them putting crosses in church yards or on walls or wearing crosses around their necks, or posting any Bible verses on their own property but when they intrude on public domain with their slogans, icons and monuments to show the superiority of their beliefs, that’s when I object strenuously. ‘

A survey of my local churches shows NO Ten Commandments monuments in church yards although the True Believers tried to put one on our Court House lawn.

Crucifixes, etc belong in the following places:

In a cemetary out of my eyesight.

Inside of a church and out of my eyesight.

In B-movies about vampires (Good company there since they are both in the fantasy realm).

Around the necks of monks, nuns, and True Believers and out of my eyesight.

Where crucifixes and other religious nonsense do NOT belong:

In public schools.

In ANY public place in plain sight (as a permanent fixture).

In government buildings.

Any other place represented by taxpayer dollars.

Within my eyesight

Some people might say “Well if it’s on private property...” I say no way. Change the damned zoning ordinances to prevent them from being within the public view. Personally, I’ve lived where NO signs were allowed to be displayed on private property except For Sale and No Trespassing signs.

Did I mention this was in a Bible-Belt state? The local government got tired of being sued because of all of the stupid Christian signs up in everyone’s yard. The local Native American tribe and several of us “heathens” got tired of there being a cross, giant plastic bible, or ten commandments display being on every street we drove down. The True Believers tried to fight it of course, saying we were messing with their “Religious and Free Speech” rights, and we countered with Separation of Church and State, violation of ordinance codes according to the dimensions of the displays, having many of the displays classified as litter under the state anti-litter laws among other things, chief among them that the True Believers were violating OUR rights by making us feel “religiously” bullied. I could discuss this for hours but won’t, but it sure was nice to be able to drive down the street again without all of those distracting eyesores.

TheJynXed, our constitution gives you NO protection from being offended.  You don’t like crosses, crucifixes, etc?  Tough shit.  As long as they’re the expressions of private citizens you’ll just have to deal with it.

Someone else expressing their religion isn’t bullying you any more than you expressing your religion, or lack of religion, is bullying them.

Some people might say “Well if it’s on private property...� I say no way. Change the damned zoning ordinances to prevent them from being within the public view. Personally, I’ve lived where NO signs were allowed to be displayed on private property except For Sale and No Trespassing signs.

Sure, gotta watch those sign/display ordinances. They can be your friend. And as long as the rules are the same for everybody in a given area, I don’t have a problem. If my neighbor is allowed to put up Disco Jesus in his yard, I fear what I might be forced to counter with. But I most assuredly WOULD counter with something. So it’s probably best for all involved that we have zoning ordinances to keep that under control.

But a religious display on a church or private property? Pft. That’s OK. In most communities *I* know of, something is going to be a flagrant zoning or signage violation way before it becomes such an eyesore as to piss people off with it’s message.

Public property = absolutely not
Private property = within your zoning restrictions, like everybody else (which in many cases means “not a damn thing other than house numbers and for sale signs")

I’m in favor of pretty liberal zoning rules where self-expression is concerned.  Maybe a maximum size restriction but if you can’t have your say on your own damn property, where’s freedom of speech? (Recognizing “speech” as an abstraction for expression)

The first amendment can be messy - it’s a mess I glady accept.

The first amendment can be messy - it’s a mess I gladly accept.

I’ll see you and raise you one, DoF:

Moral relativism can be messy- it’s a mess I gladly accept.

to ob,

i am actually being sued by in-n-out.  in-n-out is opposing my registration of the TM Quality you can Crunch, because they have Quality you can Taste....

my product is 100% organic apples, theirs, well you know....

any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.....

see the uspto.gov site and search for opposition #91161044…

Haha, wow, I’ve never seen a bigger gathering of crybabies in all my life. UH OH!!! A RELIGIOUS SYMBOL ON PUBLIC PROPERTY!!!!! ARRRRRGGGHHHHH!!! MEEELLLLTTTTINNNGGGGGG!!!! Liberals proving once again how intolerant they are