heh, I think Dubya is the hand puppet.  I find it extremely humorous that he can’t testify before the 911 commission alone, without Cheney holding his hand.

I’m failing to see what you folks are all riled up about. Truly. This is the free market working like it’s supposed to. Some guy sells site space, someone posts stuff his consumers get upset over, and the guy yanks it. Let someone who doesn’t care what that group of consumer wants make his money off the site. Big deal. If someone wants to burn books they bought, didn’t the author and publisher make the money they wanted to make? Who loses in these situations? If this stuff is really that popular, it’ll survive, and people willing to publish it will succeed while the folks that won’t will fail.

Um yeah, lets drop the other shoe then, lets say several thousand Atheist shut down the Christian Coalition website for preaching lies and deceit while threatening to take over America and turn a secular nation into a Christian Theocracy!

Now that’s something REAL, not merely dressing up some false god in a bunny outfit, but taking over a country & forcing its populace into a Theocracy which is EXACTLY what the CC is up to and don’t even deny it, actually they advertise it as a selling point.
Just imagine the uproar that would cause, the Christians would be on a crusading warpath stoning every non believer in sight.
Lets all us Atheist get a few 100,000 Bibles that we can get free from every proselytizing place imaginable, every hotel room, every Christian evangelist TV show, etc. etc. and have us a good Ol fashioned bon fire/book burning shall we?
Course we best have the national guard there by the 1000s to protect us from all these loving Christians, I assure you a riot would ensue with all those loving “not mentally disturbed” at all Christians all red faced & horse from screaming at the top of their lungs with every vein on their face bulging, they would be on the ground spinning like Curly Joe from the 3 stooges & talking in tongues, dancing with snakes, praying for rain, crying and sobbing while piling up stones to pelt us all with.

As it is, I can’t believe Christian groups waste their time on this stuff. To me, it’s pointless in trying to get the unsaved to behave as if they are saved. If they don’t accept the same moral code, they aren’t ever going to try and live by it. So there is no point in protesting books, movies, websites or even abortions just because they are contra-Christian. Now if there is a reasonable secular case, it might be worth-wile (such as “late term” abortions). But I wish Christians would spend more time proselytizing and a lot less time protesting. The more Christians they bring into the fold, the less protesting they’d want or need to do

Ahh yes “Proselytizing” in other words brainwashing others to fall for your ignorance to bolster your false belief. Yeah your right actually that has worked rather well obviously just look at how many have been brainwashed into believing such hogwash, 2 billion.
Its a crying shame Atheist cant go out and proselytize “Reality”...Put a book on evolution in every hotel room, start several TV shows like maybe “The 000 Club” put Atheist “Learning centers” every few miles across the entire country (Churches)teaching factual reality in place of religious dogma.

Humm so unless your “saved” your immoral?
and what “moral code” is this? The one where you kill everything that moves that doesn’t believe exactly as you do?
The Christian religion as do most religions breed violence & hatred, and don’t start with the ever present “those aren’t true Christians mantra” that’s BS, that is EXACTLY true Christian behavior, has been for 2000 years, history don’t lie and has a nasty habit of repeating itself.

Show me a “Atheist based Hate Group” what cant find any?

Imagine that, all us immoral unsaved heathens just happen to be the ones non violent, non racist, hoping beyond hope to “teach” not “preach” scientific facts that to the best of current human “knowledge” not ancient religious dogma is the reality of life/death and human existence.

Now show me “Christian based Hate groups” what don’t have enough bandwidth to list that many? LOL

HUMAN forgiveness, HUMAN feelings, Sympathy, compassion toward your fellow HUMAN, kindness, love & understanding have absolutely NOTHING to do with ANY religion or being “Saved”.

Human beings are born with that inherent.
Human children which obviously have not been infected with religious belief yet show all these traits, we show from childhood we can forgive, that we have feelings for others or any creature/animal, children exhibit the truest human emotions, true innocence we are all born with, put a white & black baby together and all they see is a playmate, if one gets hurt the other will likely cry with him/her and so on.

Its not until a human is taught otherwise (with the exception of chemical imbalances either naturally occurring or self inflicted) that they exhibit hatred, racism, discrimination, cruelty.
Religion teaches/brainwashes humans all these things in spades.
so if that’s what it is to be “saved” then Im glad I’m just a plain ol immoral heathen.

Can you really not see the difference?

I can see that difference. But I cannot see how one offense is any less than the other. Remember that Christians have been (are in some countries) persecuted to the point of death too. I’m not saying that is happening in the US. But I don’t see it too far away in the future.

Same with the people who originally protested Life of Brian. Think THAT’LL start up again with the re-release?

I hope not, I love that film. If you cannot laugh at yourself, can you really laugh at all? Although, it’s really the RC church, and not my faith they’re really on top of.

Apples and oranges. And the oranges are fake.

I think that’s a matter of opinion. Isn’t the standard for self defense “feeling threatened”? So it doesn’t matter whether it’s real to you, it’s real to them.

[quote[Um yeah, lets drop the other shoe then, lets say several thousand Atheist shut down the Christian Coalition website for preaching lies and deceit while threatening to take over America and turn a secular nation into a Christian Theocracy!

If you’ve got the muscle to do it through the free market, bring it on. Nothing makes Christianity spread like a little persecution.

Now that’s something REAL, not merely dressing up some false god in a bunny outfit, but taking over a country & forcing its populace into a Theocracy which is EXACTLY what the CC is up to and don’t even deny it, actually they advertise it as a selling point.

Last I checked, it’s still a free country. You’re on a crusade to lock us all in wards and pipe us full of thorazine. That’s an actual physical threat, and I don’t see the FBI locking you up.

Just imagine the uproar that would cause, the Christians would be on a crusading warpath stoning every non believer in sight.

Try a finer brush. I don’t know or associate myself with anyone that’s interested in killing any non-Christians. That would be antithetical to our entire cause. Killing people you know aren’t saved BECAUSE they are not saved is the stupidest thing I can imagine a Christian could do.

Lets all us Atheist get a few 100,000 Bibles that we can get free from every proselytizing place imaginable, every hotel room, every Christian evangelist TV show, etc. etc. and have us a good Ol fashioned bon fire/book burning shall we?

So you’d get hem under false pretenses then? Oh, that’s the same as buying them? You really are as stupid as you come across, aren’t you?

Ahh yes “Proselytizing” in other words brainwashing others to fall for your ignorance to bolster your false belief. Yeah your right actually that has worked rather well obviously just look at how many have been brainwashed into believing such hogwash, 2 billion.
Its a crying shame Atheist cant go out and proselytize “Reality”…Put a book on evolution in every hotel room, start several TV shows like maybe “The 000 Club” put Atheist “Learning centers” every few miles across the entire country (Churches)teaching factual reality in place of religious dogma.

I’m not a “right by strength of numbers” kind of guy. But it occurs to me that if you could, you would. The fact that you can’t because most people don’t agree with your view might be a clue to something.

Humm so unless your “saved” your immoral?

By definition. Of course, this is only my (and by your count 2 billion others) definition. If you’ve got another way of defining right and wrong, I’m all ears.

Show me a “Atheist based Hate Group” what cant find any?

http://christianssuck.com/
http://www.satan2000.com/
http://www.satanosphere.com
How’s that? That took me about 5 seconds to find. I’m sure if I tried, I might find out that there are several entire countries in the mid-east, not to mention the nation of China (20% of the world population).

Imagine that, all us immoral unsaved heathens just happen to be the ones non violent, non racist, hoping beyond hope to “teach” not “preach” scientific facts that to the best of current human “knowledge” not ancient religious dogma is the reality of life/death and human existence.

Funny, but this is exactly what I was saying about Christians, but somewhere in your incredibly deluded mind, you twisted what I wrote into me and other Christians wanting to kill others. I think it may be time for your medication again.

Now show me “Christian based Hate groups” what don’t have enough bandwidth to list that many?

You’re the one so certain there are so many, why don’t you go find them? Of course, being a Christian, I’d tell you that it is specifically against Biblical teaching to hate anyone, particularly our enemies. I may dislike you a great deal ninnybiz, but I don’t hate you.

HUMAN forgiveness, HUMAN feelings, Sympathy, compassion toward your fellow HUMAN, kindness, love & understanding have absolutely NOTHING to do with ANY religion or being “Saved”.

Forgive and forgiveness are mentioned almost a hundred times in the Bible, The second greatest commandment is “Love your neighbor as yourself”, Love is encouraged in over 500 verses. Love and forgiveness are indeed the central theme of the entire NT. I’m no more fond of “religion” than you are, but I know what my Bible teaches. And if you think Christians do not value those virtues, than I don’t know what translation you’ve been reading, but it’s not one I’ve ever heard of. At least get the basics of Christianity down before you start trying to speak out against it. Maybe, if you’ve ever seen anything related to actual faith in Christ, you’ve heard “For God so LOVED the world, that He gave His only begotten Son.” And that the Son’s purpose for coming was forgiveness?

Human children which obviously have not been infected with religious belief yet show all these traits, we show from childhood we can forgive, that we have feelings for others or any creature/animal, children exhibit the truest human emotions, true innocence we are all born with, put a white & black baby together and all they see is a playmate, if one gets hurt the other will likely cry with him/her and so on.

Oh sure. People raised without religion are so pure and unprejudiced. Since there are many countries where there is no religion, why don’t you go do some studies? Oh. What’s that? Can’t prove your point? Imagine that, you making claims you can’t even begin to back up with proof or logic. Who’d a thunk it?

I think that’s a matter of opinion. Isn’t the standard for self defense “feeling threatened”? So it doesn’t matter whether it’s real to you, it’s real to them.

Apples and oranges still. The pledge in its current form is calculated to reinforce or induce belief in Christianity and is a direct threat against the way I’d like to raise my children. If a site mocking a Christian religious symbol is a perceived or even actual threat against Christianity, then I need to fundamentally reassess my opinion of that religion (and not for the better).

http://christianssuck.com/ http://www.satan2000.com/ http://www.satanosphere.com How’s that? That took me about 5 seconds to find. I’m sure if I tried, I might find out that there are several entire countries in the mid-east, not to mention the nation of China (20% of the world population).

Once again ill say this slloooowwwlly for you
Show me an “ATHEIST” baaasssed Haaaatttee Grroooupp.

You listed 3, 1st you obviously didn’t even read at all since it was entirely nothing but yet another list of “Christian Based hate Groups” DOH! and nothing else.

The 2nd I looked through the whole site, its some so called “Satanic RELIGION” based site but yet not one mention of doing anything hateful towards Christians, was nothing but information on how completely ignorant Christianity is, actually the site was right on the money, and I didn’t see one thing about doing anything to Christians other than “exposing them as idiots” the entire site was simply exposing the Atrocities IN THE BIBLE, not condoning violence in anyway whatsoever by whomever it is that prescribes to this “religion” “Satan2000” and it certainly wasn’t Atheist LOL.
Hell even so called Satanist behave better and advocate peace and understanding more than the Christians ROTFL now that’s bad.

The 3rd one was like a duplicate of SEB, nothing but news and few ideas few comments, etc., once again nothing I saw at all condoning any violence towards anyone at all.
“Welcome to Satanosphere, a place where intelligent people come to report on, discuss, and comment the not-so-intelligent people of the world. You decide what the content is.” LOL

You’re the one so certain there are so many, why don’t you go find them? Of course, being a Christian, I’d tell you that it is specifically against Biblical teaching to hate anyone, particularly our enemies. I may dislike you a great deal ninnybiz, but I don’t hate you.

Of course you would since we all know Christians can do no wrong.
Iv already done that there are 1000s, simply type in “Christian based hate groups” into Google you come up with 345,000 sites, and the vast majority of them are TRUE hate groups, they condone violence, some commit violence, they ALL preach it.
I typed in “Atheist based hate groups” came up with 36,000 sites I glanced through the top 100 and NOT ONE page was actually a listing of an “Atheist Based hate group” all were sites of Atheist being “Hated” by Christian hate groups LOL

The worst thing I saw in the whole top 100 was some Atheist calling for boycotts of Star Jones & her payless shoestore ads for her hateful remarks about Atheist. That was the entire extent of “Atheist based hatred” pretty horrible huh?

Oh sure. People raised without religion are so pure and unprejudiced. Since there are many countries where there is no religion, why don’t you go do some studies? Oh. What’s that? Can’t prove your point? Imagine that, you making claims you can’t even begin to back up with proof or logic. Who’d a thunk it?

I cant think of one country where there is no religion, since there “are many” why don’t you give me a few examples.
Oh what’s that? cant prove your point? Imagine that.

My statement had NOTHING to do with anything other than Children anyway dipshit. Since very young children is the only way you could possibly get to the inner Human being in all of us, inherent Human behavior is what we are BORN with.
Has absolutely NOTHING to do with religion or being saved.

Religion ANY religion can not be either proven nor disproved, its nothing but pure dogma based on nothing but faith and belief therefore very EASY to interpret anything you damn well like into it, which is exactly why you have how many different Christian beliefs/factions/congregations/cults?, whatever you want to classify them as over a so called “Infallible” book where however many 1000s of Christian groups all think THEIR interpretation is THE ONE AND ONLY true religion. LOL
There is no such thing, its nothing but pure lunacy, the only thing that can be proven about Christianity is that it cant be proven & that regardless of it’s so called “teachings” it in fact breeds hatred, racism, violence, it is by far the most divisive action in all of human history.

Oh sure. People raised without religion are so pure and unprejudiced.

Why yes, the certainly can be. No more or less so than those with religion.

Children shouldn’t be raised with religion anyway. Their minds are not mature enough to handle what’s REALLY being dealt to them. Then they get indoctrinated and it’s hard for them to start questioning. Oh, but that’s the point, isn’t it? Grab ‘em up young.

I prefer the relatively “clean slate of mind” when it came time for me to look into my own religious opinions. Not that I was ignorant of religion, but I was not warped or biased from early on about it.

Show me an “ATHEIST” baaasssed Haaaatttee Grroooupp.

Oh, wow, thanks, now that you say it in whale, I get it. Now that I know how to communicate with you: Chrrrrissstiaaans Dooooooo nnnnoooooottttt Haaaaaaattttteeeeeee. Thooooosssseee ppeeeeeeeooooooplllllleeee arrrrrrreee jjjjjjuuuuuussssstttt saaaaayyyyyiiinnnnngggg thhhhheeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrr Chrrrrissstiaaans.

You see, it’s by definition that you are wrong. Just try reading the rest of my post.

Brandi: Exactly my point. I think any adult is responsible for their own behavior, no matter how they were raised. But the ninny thinks that we can only be a product of our parents, and is clearly not responsible for his own behavior. Explains a lot to me…

Oh, wow, thanks, now that you say it in whale, I get it. Now that I know how to communicate with you: Chrrrrissstiaaans Dooooooo nnnnoooooottttt Haaaaaaattttteeeeeee. Thooooosssseee ppeeeeeeeooooooplllllleeee arrrrrrreee jjjjjjuuuuuussssstttt saaaaayyyyyiiinnnnngggg thhhhheeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrr Chrrrrissstiaaans. 

OK, I understand that you have your own definition of who is and isn’t “really” a christian. But in the societal scheme of things, I’d say anyone or any group who wishes to self-identify as “christian” gets to be called one. Whether or not they actually get through the pearly gates by YOUR definitions isn’t the point.

What I mean is, every bad-apple “christian” group out there does in fact get to average in to our discussion of “christians” as a whole...as a segment of the population.

Just like there are alot of needy, clingy, vapid women out there giving “women” as a whole a bad name. And I do not like them. They do not fit with my definition of a “real” woman, not as I’d choose to define it (although there are of course no scriptures to reference in that regard). But they still get to call themselves women and I have to just get over the fact that I share a category with, and often suffer an inaccurate stereotype from, these creatures.

It’s not my definition. If you’re going to call yourself Chrisitian, aren’t you basing it on the Bible? Or at the very least, a little Christ, a follower of Christ, who claimed to fulfill the OT by bringing in the new covenant (essentially the NT)? And isn’t then your set of ethics fairly well codified? Forgiveness and love of your enimies is not just in a spare verse or two, it’s thematic throughout the Bible. People who hate or murder in God’s name are just rationalizing their own perversions. Just as our friend Nunyabiz uses atheism as a mask for his hate of Christianity. I doubt that deep down he so much feels there is no God as he just hates Christians.

It’s not my definition. If you’re going to call yourself Chrisitian, aren’t you basing it on the Bible? Or at the very least, a little Christ, a follower of Christ, who claimed to fulfill the OT by bringing in the new covenant (essentially the NT)? And isn’t then your set of ethics fairly well codified? Forgiveness and love of your enimies is not just in a spare verse or two, it’s thematic throughout the Bible.

I understand what you are saying. But if you are going to call yourself a christian, then where secular society is concerned, you are a member of that diverse and widely varying group of people known on the whole as “Christians”. Maybe the bad apple christians think YOU are misguided in how you fulfill your Christianity. It’s not my place to decide, nor do I give a shit, who’s interpretation is better. I think they’re all wrong. Wholesale.

Just the sheer fact of believing in tall tales and God handing down an instruction manual is enough for me to dismiss the whole lot of them. I don’t need to dissect who hates/loves/worships/lives/etc. correctly enough to be called a “true” christian.

I doubt that deep down he so much feels there is no God as he just hates Christians.

Careful. I know alot of atheists that react very badly to being told they “really, deep down believe in God”, just as childfree people are told smugly “you’ll change their mind”.

Just as our friend Nunyabiz uses atheism as a mask for his hate of Christianity.

So his atheism is a mask? Surely you aren’t suggesting the tired old “he REALLY believes in God/Jesus, he just doesn’t want to live like the bible says, so he just says he doesn’t believe in God”.

I am perfectly able to dislike the Christian religion, as well as all revealed religions, AND maintain a belief in God.

Good job of putting the concept in context Brandi. David still doesn’t understand that the only person he can decree a Christian or non-Christian is himself and even then he’s probably called it badly.

Track down a few of his posts and decide for yourself. I’ve no idea what he believes, generally because he’s too busy trying to convince people that anyone who’s Christian should be institutionalized, to articulate a clear picture of what he actually believes truth is.

But if you refuse to have discernment between someone who calls themselves Christian and clearly contradicts the obvious teachings of Christianity, and people who believe in Christ and actually attempt to follow the example, then aren’t you being a bit naive? I mean, when a used car salesman tells you it was only driven by a little old lady from Pasedena on Sundays, do you believe him too?

But if you refuse to have discernment between someone who calls themselves Christian and clearly contradicts the obvious teachings of Christianity, and people who believe in Christ and actually attempt to follow the example, then aren’t you being a bit naive? I mean, when a used car salesman tells you it was only driven by a little old lady from Pasedena on Sundays, do you believe him too?

Ah, but I’m not BUYING the Christian, am I? Funny, I can’t tell you how much I don’t buy them…

If one self-identifies as Christian and ever uses/spouts bible verses to back up anything or to support how they live their life (right or not), that’s close enough for me.

You’re trying to make the argument that “real” Christians, and therefor Chritianity, is great and wonderful, it’s just all those bad apples giving it a bad name. And when a Christian or group goes out and makes an ass of themselves, well they are the “real” ones, so it shouldn’t count.

But it does count. It counts in the here and now. I don’t care about what happens in eternity, not for this discussion. I only care about the people, any people, who self-identify as Christians because we have to deal with and live with them in this life.

Bible+Jesus (+/- Agenda) =Christian...everything else is just fluff and flavoring.

then aren’t you being a bit naive? I mean, when a used car salesman tells you it was only driven by a little old lady from Pasedena on Sundays, do you believe him too? 

The difference is that the used car saleman KNOWS he is lying, and any self-identified Christian believes that they are, in fact, a Christian, no matter in what capacity they actually fit the bill.

YOU go tell ‘em they’re wrong and you’re right. It doesn’t matter to me. From over here, you’re both wrong, just for subscribing to a revealed religion in any form. Maybe you have a deeper and truer understanding of that particular load of silly dogma. OK, you win.

Track down a few of his posts and decide for yourself. I’ve no idea what he believes, generally because he’s too busy trying to convince people that anyone who’s Christian should be institutionalized, to articulate a clear picture of what he actually believes truth is.

Im curious David CAN you read? Do you bother reading anything I say or just glaze over it real quick? or is it just you’re incapable of comprehending what’s being said?
Maybe because of your Cognitive Dissonance kicking in high gear when you read factual evidence that opposes your false God?

Iv made myself perfectly clear.

I do NOT believe in ANY God of ANY kind whatsoever.
ALL religions are utter hogwash, NONE have one shred of empirical evidence to support them.
I never did believe anything I heard in Church even as a child I had more common sense than that, I was confused on why all these adults seemingly thought these fairytales & Fables I was hearing were real. To me it was just Dr.Church Seuss.
By age 9 I had written it all off as some weird story telling class where adults go to play pretend.
By 16 when I graduated high school when I was fully aware of all the lunacy & fully understood what it was I witnessed earlier combined with learning REALITY, discovering science, learning FACTS, evolution etc. I became hard-core dyed in the wool ATHEIST.
Im now 45, iv spent about 30 years researching and studying debating religion and the insanity that goes with it.
In 30 years I have yet even once to hear one argument from any Christian that makes sense, Iv yet to see one single shred of evidence that supports ANY religion, Christianity being the one that comes up most simply because of the odds since I live in America.

and for oh about the 50th time and why I bother to keep repeating it I don’t know.
My main gripe are with the so called Fundamentalist Christians, not ALL Christians, actually more of the ones YOU call “True Christians” are the ones I feel must have some mental disorder because frankly I just can not conceive of any other reason why a 100% sane person could possibly believe all the totally absurd things they do.

Rest of you here can some how rationalize how someone that is “sane” fully 100% believes something that is “insane” well good for you.
I cant.
Various mental disorders such as “Shared Psychotic Disorder” “Delusional Disorder” “Temporal Lobe Epilepsy” “Cognitive Dissonance” just to name a few are my Occams razor
because it takes something that just does not make any sense at all & puts a label on it, and simplifies it, which is how can a sane human being when given all the facts that are currently known beyond any reasonable doubt remain in total denial, will flatly refuse to acknowledge any empirical evidence, will dream up shit or believe something some deluded nut like Duane Gish spews before facing real tangible empirical evidence that is presented by 1000s of various scientist, not just one source but many and all those sources collaborate each other.

Fundamentalist Christians which seem to be on the rise, while people that just somewhat believe themselves to be Christian, say they are Christian when asked, because they want to believe in some god seem to be shrinking.
It appears some Christians approx. 1% per year are learning reality and facing it, thus denouncing what is obviously BS, others instead of learning the facts, & accepting it their cognitive Dissonance kicks in forcing them to dig in deeper and hold onto even more hard-core beliefs in order to maintain their ridiculous faith.
Its becoming almost a necessity for Christians in the information age to either become hard-core Fundamentalist Christians and believe every single word of the Bible as absolute 100% truth cover to cover & put their fingers in their ears while going LALALALALALALALlalaALAh! as so much overwhelming empirical evidence is there in everyday life in their face so they just have no choice but to completely deny it, don’t listen to it, refute it, refuse to acknowledge it, go to more Church functions, watch more Christian only TV, surround themselves only with those equally as deluded, etc. in order to remain status quo.

So while the rest of you here don’t have any problem rationalizing how someone presumably sane can so easily 100% believe something as absurd as the Bible being absolute 100% fact and truth cover to cover, well I cant.
To me that’s not the actions of someone sane and using all their faculties, so I attribute it to some imbalance of some sort since that at least makes perfect sense.
Somehow that makes me some Fundamentalist Atheist hate monger troll, oh well.
I don’t “Hate” Christians, I “PITY” them.
They are poor confused souls wanting so desperately to believe in their little fantasy world that most just can not let it go.
Their mind contorts and twist any and all information to fit their belief, so that they can compartmentalize it and still function in society as a whole.

If you believe the Earth to be just 6000 years old or that some 600 year old man built some ark to house every animal & just 8 humans while every living thing on the planet were all cruelly drowned by some massive Global flood just 3500 years ago, then your delusional, no ifs ands or butts.

To me that is no different in anyway than some poor soul in some sanitarium somewhere that thinks he can fly & walk through walls but only when nobody is watching.
To me a full blown delusion is a delusion I don’t recognize these absurd religious beliefs as somehow rational in anyway.

So, Brandi, if I tell you that I’m a nature lover, and then you see me hop out of my SUV to litter, cut down a bunch of trees, and then start a couple of forest fires, you still believe I’m just like those folks in the Sierra Club because I say I am?

By your standard, I should lump all non-believers in the same group and start treating you all alike. I should treat you with the same level of respect as, say, Nunyabiz here?

Nunyabiz: Appearently, I can read, hence my response. I realize this requires you to use a little abstract thinking, but I promise it won’t hurt. Although why I bother in your case is something I’m starting to question again. You spent close to 1,000 words telling me what you DON’T believe. The only thing I saw in there that you do believe is that Christians have a mental disorder, which I think you could have communicated in maybe 10 words or less. So I remain to my point:

I’ve no idea what he believes, generally because he’s too busy trying to convince people that anyone who’s Christian should be institutionalized, to articulate a clear picture of what he actually believes truth is.

Unless, of course, you are trying to say that atheism is an active belief system, not the lack thereof.

nyb;

I sense/have sensed similar frustration regarding all things organized religion.

The main point of my frustration has been that most of them seem to separate a person from their ability to think clearly and recognize their situation in the world, instead they impose their will or method of thinking which IMO takes a person who is striving for the truth in the opposite direction.

I do believe in correcting oneself to develop virtuous qualities.

David;

Atheism could be considered a belief system,
or a disbelief system, either a person believes in God as their creator or they don’t, it has nothing to do with right or wrong/good or evil, then again does the noun ‘systems’ accurately represent what our search for truth will encompass?

Please bare with my anality for a moment while
I list a few of the possible definitions:

1)A group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole.

2)A functionally related group of elements, especially:
a) An organism as a whole, especially with regard to its vital processes or functions.

3)An organized set of interrelated ideas or principles. 

Do any of these definitions accurately describe in detail the religious processes that are being taught in the present day?

If I might be so bold, at the foundation of our search I think we are all at least trying to resolve our confusion, maybe our negativity, lust, whatever the form of our self delusion.

Not merely trying to be right, or pointing out someone else’s inexactitudes.

The skirmishes that have occurred or are occurring in the world in the name of religion: the ongoing middle east struggle and resulting terrorism, Waco Texas, the people’s temple(Jim Jones).

All of these problems are reducing the good name of true religion to fear, not the self modulation of inner virtue which I believe to be true religion, not the dogmatic attack of Sunday morning zealots, the thieving televangelists, they are part of the problem. 

I do tend to go on don’t I?

The mind that has put its house in order.

Thanks for your time
DA

ROTFL

Needless to say if I don’t believe in some fictitious God/Religion then obviously evolution is what I know to be true.
No Atheism isn’t a “belief” system since its based entirely on empirical evidence, pure logic, and reasoning.
Belief and faith are for those that have zero evidence i.e.: All Religions, that choose to believe in fairytales & are too scared to face reality.

Like everything iv said, you also fail miserably to comprehend what Brandi is saying also.

You’re the one *not me* thats lumping ALL Christians in the same mental disorder catagory also, im not going to bother explaining that again, its obviously a pointless effort you’re completely clueless.

David “A”
If the “Them” you’re referring to is organized religion in general then I basically agree.

Nothing deadens the thinking mind more than religion.
Religion demands that you stop thinking and in the case of Christianity at least believe 100% in the Bible without question.
That’s where the belief and faith come in since your forced to believe something so absurd with zero evidence

David A, I’ve been around the block with Nunyabiz before. So it’s not that I’m being lazy in my use of the word system (in belief system), it is that I invited him into the trap of saying that atheism is a belief, making it, in the end, no different from a belief in anything else. I know that if I just started out in that direction on my own, Les would have swooped in with his arguments against that concept, and he’s right, atheism can be just non-belief. However, if Nunyabiz was going to start defending his prior statements about having actually made a positive claim to a belief by saying that advocating atheism was an actual belief, well then, I could not help but to expose the weakness of his arguments against religion in light of that statement. BTW, that was what my Dad sometimes calls me: “David A”. I really am starting to think I’m talking to myself...maybe Nunyabiz is right!

I like your argument bout the basis of the search for God. I like to think that I am searching for Truth. But I know that the reality is far more like that God drew me to Him in order to resolve my confusion, maybe my negativity, lust, whatever the form of my self delusion (as you put it).

However, Nunyabiz, saying you do not believe in God does NOT mean that you automatically believe in evolution. Geekmom put forth a rather interesting argument in that direction a while back, but Les closed the thread before I could get her to continue. I did, however invite her to do so in the forums, but she’s yet to bite on it.

In fact, from all the evidence I’ve seen, belief in evolution takes an amazing amount of faith. It seems to me that when I asked for proof of it before, you rambled on about breeding, but never actually could point to proof that any one species evolved from another. And you never will, because there is none. Look: all the theories of evolution rely on aberrations in DNA that produce beneficial adaptations for survival prior to mating age. Since whenever DNA is affected by an outside source (the evolutionist favorite is usually gamma radiation) it becomes less, not more, complex than before, continued evolution does not work. Life forms would not tend to become naturally more complex, but less. This also follows the generally accepted 2nd law of thermodynamics as well. If anything, evolution should produce less and less variation (as less and less genetic material becomes available to work with) and the organisms less and less complex (as the 2nd law would indicate). Your belief requires more faith than I have, Nunyabiz.

Additionally, Humans are irreducibly complex. Which also means there is no way we cold have evolved one way and then another, there would have had to have been one major mutation that produced multiple interdependent systems. That’s more than a little unlikely to happen randomly.

In fact, from all the evidence I’ve seen, belief in evolution takes an amazing amount of faith.

It takes no faith whatsoever. The scientific theory makes sense and is consistent with whatever actual fact we can observe.

It seems to me that when I asked for proof of it before, you rambled on about breeding, but never actually could point to proof that any one species evolved from another. And you never will, because there is none. Look: all the theories of evolution rely on aberrations in DNA that produce beneficial adaptations for survival prior to mating age. Since whenever DNA is affected by an outside source (the evolutionist favorite is usually gamma radiation) it becomes less, not more, complex than before, continued evolution does not work. ...

Rather than refuting the same old “arguments” again, let’s try a different approach.

Do you believe that DNA exists? If you don’t, then we’ll stop right there. If you do, I’m curious to find out at which point your religious beliefs override modern biology.

I don’t have much time at the moment but wanted to quickly chime in and ask the Davids to please arm wrestle over some more distintive monikers. I’m already confused. If it were up to me, I’d call them Christian David and The Other David. But it’s not up to me.

hi
I would suggest that it is a mistake to place empirical science on the same pedestal that religion once occupied.
Like religion it is flawed.
Like religion it breaks down under close scrutiny.It becomes a thing of probabilities not certainties.
Use logic and rational by all means but remember that 50% of the tool you are using to look for answers ie your brain does not work at a rational level it is intuitive.
Our reliance on the scientific rationale
has tended to suppress the intuitive,this is reflected in the world we have created.
It’s my belief that a balanced use of the rational and intuitive helps to create a less distorted and truer picture.
It is entertaining and informative seeing you guys trying to persuade each other that one point of view is truer than another even if sometimes it seems a little like trench warfare.
n

E: It seems that you missed completely that which you actually quoted me as writing. Of course I believe in DNA. I’m not sure how you managed avoid it in what you quoted, you chose to ignore the facts even as you read them? Ah yes, that must be it. Now your statement “It takes no faith whatsoever. The scientific theory makes sense and is consistent with whatever actual fact we can observe.” Makes sense! You go through life deciding the facts before reading them, and then simply blot from your memory anything that does not agree with your version of reality. I like how this goes with your statement. First: “The scientific theory makes sense” because to you, that is of utmost importance, then: “sense and is consistent with whatever actual fact we can observe” And if the facts don’t, we simply refuse to acknowledge them, eh? Well, the way I was taught was that when the facts don’t fit, you change the theory. There are many facts that do not fit with the theory of evolution. I named three in my posting above. Why don’t you give those a shot, and then will go from there.

Brandi: Sorry, we thought we’d worked it out when he started using David A instead of David. I kinda liked Geekmom’s David (prime), but I think that’s my ego speaking. I’ll try to come up with something.

David, David…

You go through life deciding the facts before reading them, and (so on)

You are projecting again, aren’t you? Isn’t what you say more closely related to the creationist bunker mentality?

To get back to the beginning, you misunderstand the purpose of my question. I’m honestly curious where the common ground between us ends and I thought a series of yes-or-no questions would make it easier to establish a frame of reference.

So you accept that DNA exists. Unless you say otherwise, I’ll assume that you agree with the non-creationist understanding of the DNA’s role and that molecular and cellular biology doesn’t induce any discomfort.

Next. You seemed to express some scorn about the effect gamma radation can have on DNA. Do we agree that certain chemicals and types of radiation can introduce random changes to the DNA, i.e. mutations?

If you do not accept the concept of mutations, then we are done.