Starting at the end of the book of Serge: 

Your bud, Serge

If you self-identify as our “bud”, is that supposed to make us feel more kindly toward you?  Forced familiarity just makes me suspicious that you’re trying to sell something.

And we do too my friend, we care about every single human being, even muslims that believe in islam, i pray for them as well, the implications of having a Creator is quite simple actually, it means “accountability” to the One who created us.

Try playing those words back and pretend for a moment that you didn’t believe in “the One”.  You show up with a lot of god-jargon, and calling people you don’t even know ‘friend’ and ‘bud’, and apparently lack even the smallest clue as to why that might be a teensy bit off-key.  Well Les and Swordsbane are saintly, patient individuals.  Me, I’m just gonna jump to the point and let you know it sounds misguided, clueless, or even insincere.  But it does NOT sound respectful.  We are strangers, we just met you, and you aren’t our friend yet, or our bud.

And if you think we should be accountable to your god, first you have to establish that it exists.

Belief or faith is most certainly the way Christians come to know God and apparently the only way to please Him, i do hear you and i won’t force my faith on you nor anyone else here, as a matter of fact, i don’t believe that the Word of God should be taught in secular schools nor in politics, these are things that should be taught at home so in a sense, we are kind of agreeing on something here, maybe Christians should start their own schools teaching creation or Intelligent Design and let the masses of unbelievers be with their evolution theory but that would create a “two states in one” kind of unmanageable monster though.

Wow, lots of junk there.  First of all Christians already do have their own schools where they substitute mythology for science.  And they have the right to do that to their own children, sadly.  To handicap them in distinguishing reality from fantasy, science from stories about talking snakes.  No wonder they grow up and try to ban Harry Potter.

In what way does faith enable you to come to know anything?  The fact that you believe in something is only evidence that you believe in that something, and nothing more.  If you believed in Allah that wouldn’t prove Allah to us, so how does your belief in Jesus prove Jesus?  All you have is a subjective feeling. That is not evidence.

You have placed faith in god opposite evolutionary theory, and it makes me wonder if you understand either one.  Evolution is only a scientific theory that describes the biological process of speciation.  It is not a cosmology, a theology, a psychology, a philosophy, or a system for organizing your sock drawer.  It does not require faith because it is supported by tangible evidence and because it is predictive and explanatory.  It has nothing to do with the big bang, or Nazis, or politics or really even religion.  You are comparing apples and newspapers; they’re not even related to each other as opposites. 

Your right, maybe Christians are afraid for you guys, we sometimes have a fleshy way of sending the message out of concern for those that are deaf or rebelling against it, maybe is it too emotional on our part? I would certainly agree with that, the certainty of the existence of hell for us makes us want to convince others that it does exist and that the expression “hell on earth” is nothing compared to the hell described in the Bible, that way of sending the message ie “in the flesh” rather than “in the Spirit” is too often how some of us do it because we care for even those that insult or hate us.

Touching; you Christians care so much that sometimes you vandalize our cars for us.  But it’s only because you are so emotional. Back in the day you used to care so much you’d torture us into confessing your faith.  I don’t know how much more of your compassion we can take.

“Certainty of hell”?  Listen, friend, buddy, old buddy old pal, that’s just a story written by people who thought that most of the world’s animals lived within walking distance of Noah’s backyard.  People who thought the stars were, like, a mile away.  Who didn’t know that blood circulates in the body. So they postulated that there is a non-corporal ontology to personhood, and that it could suffer eternally unless it kowtowed to an almighty, invisible being.  But you’ve got bupkiss in the way of evidence.  Don’t confuse being certain with being right.

This applies to your video where some guy says “the vast majority of secular historians agree the non-biblical sources are authentic”. Name them.

So Jesus “revealed himself” to you.  You know, in most places that will get a guy arrested.  But maybe you liked it.

But it’s only because you are so emotional. Back in the day you used to care so much you’d torture us into confessing your faith.

That’s it, that’s it exactly. Anyone who pretends that the christians would allow us heretics to live one second longer than they have too is strongly deluding himself.

Take note of that Serge: You and your ilk talk of “christian love” only because you no longer have the option of resorting to force. We’ve all seen what happens to heretics like us when christians past and present think/thought there will be no temporal consequences for their actions.

So can the “christian love” bullshit unless you can come up with a good explanation for the Inquisition, the Crusades (all of them), Malleus Maleficarum, the whole fucking medieval period, the witch-hunts, Matthew Shepard and Fred Phelps. And no, the no true Scotsman argument won’t wash.

In addition to what DOF wrote allow me to add the following:

Serge writes…

Your right, maybe Christians are afraid for you guys, we sometimes have a fleshy way of sending the message out of concern for those that are deaf or rebelling against it, maybe is it too emotional on our part?

Your mistake is in assuming that we’re either deaf or rebelling against the idea of Hell. Both assume that Hell is an actuality. Surely if you’re going to be intellectually honest you will admit that there’s the possibility that Hell does not exist no matter how certain you are that it does. I don’t accept the idea that Hell actually exists so stories about how horrible it happens to be are meaningless to me.

Your questioning of the truth that i hold is very legitimate, in fact, i don’t, as a human being, posess the Truth, it is rather the Truth(Jesus) living in me that i hold up high as commanded by Him and out of certainty that He is alive right now and reveals Himself to those who sincerely call on His Name for He did reveal Himself to me and to many millions of people, believers and unbelievers alike and from all walks of life or background.

Again you make the assumption that I and others like me have never attempted to ask Jesus to reveal himself to us. You know what they say about ASSumptions, don’t you? You should spend some time in the archives here and you’ll learn that I was once a believe myself, a Baptist in fact, and was considering becoming a pastor in my youth. You’ll learn that I’ve studied the Bible quite extensively including having read it front to back four times over. You assume that I’ve never thought that Jesus was a presence in my life or that I’ve never bought into the same nonsense you’re peddling now. Those assumptions are incorrect.

Tell me friend, do you believe that Caesar ever existed?

We’ve had that argument before here and it failed to be convincing last time. I doubt you have a new wrinkle that would make it any more convincing this time.

Let me put it to you this way: Before even thinking of trying to convince me that Christianity is the only true belief system you’re going to have to convince me that a God of any kind is not only possible, but likely enough to be worth considering. Then you’ll have to convince me that said God bears any resemblance to the one described by Christianity. I’ve studied a lot of God myths in my time. I’ve no real reason to accept the Christian version over any of the others as they all have about the same amount of evidence behind them.

That is to say, not much at all.

Serge! Bud! Have I got a question for you, dude! What version of the Bible is the one true version?  You know, the one true, infallible Word of God?  Please explain in sentences why and how you came to that conclusion. 

Bonus points will be awarded for using complete and coherent sentences. 

Please Note: You will be graded on spelling, punctuation and grammar, and you work will be proofed against published works. The copying in whole or part of works in either physical or web-based form without proper citation is considered a breach of contract and will be grounds for expulsion, so please do not copy and paste someone else’s answer; plagiarism is an intolerable crime. 

If you choose to use the work of another, please rephrase it, since it is the policy of this establishment to maintain a high standard of academic integrity. Thank you.  Please record your message at the sound of the beep. 

Now wait a minute, Julian. Maybe the love that Serge has for us is the kind that David had for Jonathan (re: I Sam. 18:1,3,4; 20:17, 20:30; 20:41, 42; 23:16, 17, 18). After the California Supreme Court ruling, you wouldn’t need to reject Serge. 

What the others said.

For some reason, Serge’s approach is reminiscent of a cold reading and forget about the “not preaching” bit.

Sergy dude, when you’re in a hole—stop digging. Go and read the archives and perhaps you’ll figure out why we’re not buying what you’re selling.

Ok Decrepitoldfool, i guess it would make it easier for you if i had writtene: Your enemy Serge? : )

But i’m not your enemy man, i can surely stop calling myself bud if it strikes ya fancy but i sure don’t have any miracle water to sell nor any Bibles for that matter, all that i have is free to take and His Name is Jesus, you are even free to reject Him, that’s how much He loves all of us for he ain’t needin’ any robots! : ) : ) : ) oh and in Canada, we are that way with total strangers, just like the Aussies! : )

To Julian:

i hear you, the whole Roman empire is responsible for the organized religion that we have today and it is a total mess man, it started with that Constantine guy in 325 AD but prior to that(from the early church apostles, disciples and saints), the real Christians were in hiding being persecuted by the roman emperors, Rome is responsible for the stupid inquisitions and real christianity doesn’t belong to the stewpid freekin’ papacy man. Roman catholics have a religion, real christians have a relationship with Jesus directly without any human intercession AND ESPECIALLY WITHOUT ANY HUMAN AUTHORITY, when you become a Christian, you belong to Christ alone, not to churchianity! Same for the stewpid crusades, some religious figures took on themselves to fight the heretics in the Name of Christ but Christ had never commanded that nor even prophesied about it, it is a religion that did this, don’t you blame that on Christ, He is love.

Oh and by the way, have you ever wondered who crucified Jesus and why they crucified Him?

Les, now that is interesting, you were a christian? WOW, COOL!
The good news is that you’ve read it twice as much as me, i am in the second reading right now, i would have a couple of questions for you then if you don’t mind, were you baptized with water only? Or did you also ask Jesus to baptize you with fire(His Spirit)? I’m asking because it does make a huge difference especially when you know that John the Baptist preached about that in the desert and which is also well explained by Jesus to Nicodemus in John 3:1-21 ie that we are to be born of the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God, that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit, helps the believer to understand the Scriptures in a more spiritually discerned way...I think God says what He means and means what He says so hell is a real place, the enemy of our souls is also real.

Aweright Mr Bogman, i’ll bite

The best version of the Bible is in my humble opinion, for the Old Testament; the canonic texts that were written in Hebrew from the whereabouts of 400 BC in the time of Esdras or yet, the version of the Masters of the law that were gathered in Janmia Palestime around 90 AD, pretty close to the death of Paul and John i would say.

Now for the New Testament, the Septuagint, written in Greek and to which was added the Old Testament also translated in Greek should be the best version that one could buy today at a much higher price than let’s say a King James 2008 edition but Oh so worth it! : )

Leguru, don’t be jealous, i love ya too! : ) : ) : 0

elwedriddsche, no one said that you had to buy anything from me and i sure don’t feel like going through the archives to read negative thoughts about either my God or against my brothers in Jesus.

My point here is made anyway for i stood alone in Christ with respect and civility, with love even if i sensed a strong resistance towards me by some of you.

The thing is guys, you don’t have to believe like me, i love freedom of speech and use it to express who i am in Christ, tis all that matters to me, some of you guys are free to group like wolves and attack Christ followers while others among you are mature enough to try and listen to what i or other Christians have to say and that part pleased me, really.

No hard feelings towards anyone here, i’ll read your replies even if i might assume that i will receive some tomatoes, LOL!

Best

Serge

Like I said: Drugs.

Why does this all sound so familiar?  We’ve all seen this cat before, and we all know that déjà-vu means a glitch in the Matrix.

Serge- here’s a quote from Moby Dick you might like (a great book, by the way):

“Now, as I before hinted, I have no objection to any person’s religion, be it what it may, so long as that person does not kill or insult any other person, because that other person doesn’t believe it also. But when a man’s religion becomes really frantic; when it is a positive torment to him; and, in fine, makes this earth of ours an uncomfortable inn to lodge in; then I think it high time to take that individual aside and argue the point with him.”

I think I can speak for most of the atheists here when I say that I don’t really care what someone believes, as long as they behave nicely.  Unfortunately, many believers are making this Earth of ours an uncomfortable inn to lodge in, and it’s high time that we take them to task for it.

Swordsbane: as Les said, well said.  You’ve got beer and Doritos for the Lord?  Well, we don’t have Doritos here, but we do have good beer and some pretty good tortilla chips:  my treat if you, or the Lord, ever come to Vienna.  Meanwhile, in the immortal words of Greg Brown:

Oh Lord, I have made you a place in my heart among the rags and the bones and the dirt.
There’s piles of lies, and the love gone from her eyes, and old moving boxes full of hurt.
Pull up a chair by the trouble and care. I got whiskey, you’re welcome to some.
Oh Lord, I’ve made you a place in my heart, but I don’t reckon you’re gonna come.

Tried to fix up the place, I know it’s a disgrace, you get used to it after a while -
with the flood and the drought and old pals hanging out with their IOU’s and their smiles.
Bare naked women keep coming in and they dance like you would not believe.
Oh Lord, I’ve made you a place in my heart, so take a good look - and then leave.

Oh Lord, why does the Fall get colder each year? Lord, why can’t I learn to love?
Lord, if you made me, it’s easy to see that you all make mistakes up above.
But if I open the door, you’ll know that I’m poor, and my secrets are all that I own.
Oh Lord, I’ve made you a place in my heart and I hope that you leave it alone.

Dof- you say:

[Evolution is not] a system for organizing your sock drawer.

Well, I don’t know about your sock drawer, but mine seems to have evolved a mind of its own: despite all my efforts to maintain racial purity, my socks engage in Rassenschande (miscegenation- but doesn’t it sound better in German- “racial disgrace”?) I would swear that I pair up black with black, white with white, but under cover of night, they reassort themselves willy-nilly, just to mess with my brain.  Maybe God does exist, and this is how He is attempting to communicate with me.  God knows that all His other attempts have fallen flat…

Zilch: I have only black socks, so no sorting is necessary.  What that means, I don’t know.

Les, there’s your problem: when patting your head and rubbing your belly for the lord, remember to rub clockwise.  It makes a huge difference.

Serge:  You are a victim of magical thinking.  Being at a point in life where you were ready for change and for some different frame of reference, you came upon Christianity.  You were ready to believe: the experiential difference for you was going to happen no matter what you latched onto.  Because the experience correlated with the particular frame, your Christianity, you attributed the former to the latter.

That is the essence of tumultuous “conversion”.  A lot of what we mistake for experience is individual neurology.  Reality is what it is, but what we experience of it is far more subjective than we would like to think, because the brain does a lot of filtering and framing. Now because of the particular wiring in your head, you insist everyone else seek the precise same experience. 

Ain’t gonna happen, because we don’t have your head, we have our heads. Some of us have already been through something analogous to what you went through, but in time it burned itself out.  For many people it is a non-repeatable event.

There is a method for knowing some, limited things, with pretty fair certainty, by using controls that compensate for personal bias and perception.  By using instruments to measure. By being prepared to discard an explanatory theory if it is superceded by one that fits the data more closely.  By accepting that if something lies outside the scope of the epistemological method that it is conjecture, not to be insisted upon in polite company.

Ok Decrepitoldfool, i guess it would make it easier for you if i had writtene: Your enemy Serge? : )

But i’m not your enemy man, i can surely stop calling myself bud if it strikes ya fancy

Another clear miss—a breach of etiquette, projection, and a logical fallacy wrapped into one.

To spell it out: You’re still asserting a familiarity to which you don’t hold a claim. The fallacy you’re committing is known as a false dichotomy; you make it sound like it’s either friend or enemy, but the semantics of “not friend” and “enemy” differ. This way of thinking tells more about you than your god ramblings. As Zilch may quote, “Und willst du nicht mein Bruder sein, so schlag ich dir den Schädel ein.”—which neatly summarizes many centuries of Christian history.

no one said that you had to buy anything from me and i sure don’t feel like going through the archives to read negative thoughts about either my God or against my brothers in Jesus.

Another clear miss.

We don’t have negative thoughts about something that hasn’t been shown to exist. If you refer to the portrayal of the alleged Christian deity by Christians themselves, you can’t blame anybody for forming the opinion that this alleged deity is an immoral monster that isn’t worthy of worship. And don’t make me laugh about “negative thoughts about your brothers in Jesus.” Any such thoughts are well-earned and if you don’t understand where we’re coming from, you really should stop digging the hole you’re already in.

You’re not just preaching, you’re not even listening. Well, turnabout is fair play; can you give me a good reason why we should bother with your “positive thoughts”?

My point here is made anyway for i stood alone in Christ with respect and civility, with love even if i sensed a strong resistance towards me by some of you.

Bullshit. If you’re not a condescending ass, you’re trying very hard to come across like one.

The thing is guys, you don’t have to believe like me, i love freedom of speech and use it to express who i am in Christ, tis all that matters to me, some of you guys are free to group like wolves and attack Christ followers while others among you are mature enough to try and listen to what i or other Christians have to say and that part pleased me, really.

Another clear miss. This is a private website owned by Les and there is no freedom of speech for you (or anybody but Les) to exercise. Some have the patience to reply to sermons, others cut the crap. In my judgment, you don’t warrant patience, but anybody here is free to waste their time as they see fit.

I can tell that you like playing martyr, though.

No hard feelings towards anyone here, i’ll read your replies even if i might assume that i will receive some tomatoes, LOL!

And now you come across like a sanctimonious prick.

By the way, do you have anything on-topic to say?

decrepitoldfool:

That is the essence of tumultuous “conversion”.  A lot of what we mistake for experience is individual neurology.  Reality is what it is, but what we experience of it is far more subjective than we would like to think, because the brain does a lot of filtering and framing. Now because of the particular wiring in your head, you insist everyone else seek the precise same experience.

“Reality is that which when we refuse to believe it, doesn’t go away”

Put any two people in a room and bring up the subject of religion, and they’ll find something to argue about, even if they belong to the same church.  Put two people in a room with a lit light bulb and you’ll never get them arguing about whether the light is on or off.  (You might get the odd person who will say odd things and laugh at a spot on the wall, but that doesn’t count)

The universe seems to behave rationally (to you) if you believe in God and seems to behave rationally if you don’t.  We are the only variable.  That kinda makes me think that we’re the one’s inventing God, not the other way around.

The universe seems to behave rationally (to you) if you believe in God and seems to behave rationally if you don’t.

The first part is debatable. Christian apologists have conniptions when faced with theodicy; for the universe to be rational, they have to resort to cop-outs and lots of hand-waiving to distract from the existence of evil. Alternatively, they may abandon rationality one way or the other.

This Jesus and Mo seems fitting:

That kinda makes me think that we’re the one’s inventing God, not the other way around.

It’s self-evident to me that religions and their gods are entirely man-made.

Serge, now we know what you said and what you believe. We can all download and copy and even print it. Please tell us where we can find what Jesus said and what he believed. NOT third, fourth, or fifth parties writing what others had said that Jesus said or believed - FIRST hand evidence. EVEN ONE WITNESS would be impressive. We are all waiting with bated breath. 

The universe seems to behave rationally (to you) if you believe
in God and seems to behave rationally if you don’t.

The first part is debatable.

No, I’m sure it looks very rational to them after they accepted (on faith) some fundamentals that supports that “rationality” Like someone who wears special glasses that make him see strange things, I have no doubt that he see what they claim to see.  I just doubt that it is what he believes it is.  You ask him and he says that the glasses “allow” him to see the things he does and he feels pity for you that you don’t.

You’ve got convince him not only to take off the glasses (which he might have been wearing 24/7 since birth and may not ever realize he’s wearing them) but also that it’s okay not to see those things because they aren’t real.  Sometimes, they think you can see those things too and are confused when you can’t.

Good luck with that.

The one’s that bother me are the one’s who come at you with a fly swatter shouting “There’s a wasp on your head!!! Let me get him!” I still think they truly think they’re doing me a favor, but it’s annoying.  It’s okay though… At least they’ve stopped using hammers.... for the most part.

No, I’m sure it looks very rational to them after they accepted (on faith) some fundamentals that supports that “rationality” Like someone who wears special glasses that make him see strange things, I have no doubt that he see what they claim to see.

I know that it’s a matter of perspective. Of course the universe is rational for True Believers™—given suitable definitions of universe and rational. Boneheaded as they may be, some still figure out that there’s something wrong with what they’ve been force-fed, but then they’re happy with a cop-out that relaxes the definitions even more.

The one’s that bother me are the one’s who come at you with a fly swatter shouting “There’s a wasp on your head!!! Let me get him!” I still think they truly think they’re doing me a favor, but it’s annoying.  It’s okay though… At least they’ve stopped using hammers.... for the most part.

If you see somebody coming at you with said flyswatter, deck them before they get too annoying… Figuratively speaking, of course.

Pat Condell: God is not enough

elwed- how did you know that that’s my motto?  Along with this:

Und willst du schon mein Bruder sein,
Frag’ ich: wo kommt der Hacken rein?

and, as you might say:  I loves me some Pat Condell.  I’m showing this to my kids tonight!

“Bog Brother”
What a Bigot.Hate speech too.
So much for tolerance.Just beat and curse people you don’t like or agree with.
With the measure you use it will be measured to you.....

“creo” -

What exactly did I say that would cause you to call me a bigot? I have written a few things on this string that even I find offensive, but I can’t know what you are pissed at if you don’t point it out.  I know the quote button might be a bit too tough for you to use though, and you clearly don’t have a handle on quotation marks, so if you want to, you can use the following format (I assume you can copy and paste text, that’s usually the first thing people like you learn to do so that you can copy and paste some essay or other from a different site as your own opinion):

Bog Brother said: (Psst! put the text that I wrote that pissed you off here! Don’t worry if it’s something you wouldn’t say, I’m pretty sure “Thou shalt not copy and paste obscenities” isn’t in the Bible!)

If you use the above format, then I can explain to you what I meant, and maybe we can come to some kind of understanding of why I said it.  We might even find that we agree on something, though I have my doubts about it. 

OR, you could use the quote button like so:

So much for tolerance.Just beat and curse people you don’t like or agree with.
With the measure you use it will be measured to you.....

At first I almost thought you were just berating me for not being liberal enough because you obviously didn’t catch the sardonism of most of my comments (I find fundamentalists in particular need more subtle humor fully explained in painful detail, and thus totally ruin the actual humor.  I won’t even begin to try to explain the irony of someone who is probably a Fundamentalist Christian calling someone else a bigot.)

True, some of the comments I made on this and other threads border on obscene (OK, they are obscene), but I don’t really mean anyone any harm, I just like getting a rise out of sputtering fundamentalist nutjobs. The kind that I’m pretty sure you are, though I could be wrong.

Anyway “creo”, have a great day and may the Flying Spaghetti Monster and His Magical Host of Pretty Pink Unicorns bless you and keep you and protect you from all the misery and pain and suffering and terrible wine in the world, forever and ever, until the end of the endless pasta bowl. Ramen.

LES:

In argument makes much more sense in this case!

A real scientist, based on observably experiments, namely Louis Pasteur, first came up with the background idea that leads Chuck to state such thing.

PH.D Jonathan Sarfati demonstrate that Chemicals could bind together to form more complex molecules, but could not have arisen into DNA, nor a cell, nor a code, nor any detecting and error-correcting codes.

DNA is a code, and is not analogous to code
DNA is an error detecting / correcting code
DNA is a language, and linguistics agree

This is confirmed here, please read the objections ( it takes hours to get through, so set aside a week or so ):

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/iidb.htm

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/atheists_riddle.htm

The problem between evolutionist that believe in abiogenesis, whether in a new model of abiogenesis or not, is that they automatically reject the obvious evidence BECAUSE they already conclude that God is not real. Thus, they accept the “ Alternative “. Honest evolutionist have stated this. I am not saying that micro evolution is not true, it has been demonstrated experimentally no long ago and appeared on answersingenesis.org. But that does not explain Chemicals and then “Molecules to man” evolution with Dramatic and drastic increases in information.

Brian
Lack of explanation is not proof of a god.

There is no evidence for God. It is wrong to argue that because we can not explain something ergo it must be caused by God.  Things we understand now, such as lightning, we know are not caused by God.  When we did not understand them, the cause remained the same, still without God.

I was bored enough to follow the links to IIDB. After looking at the first two pages worth of thread, it’s obvious that “pmarshall” is getting his ass handed to him in a sling. I won’t invest the time to read the train wreck to its end, but I suspect that pmarshall confuses a debate on IIDB with a game of “last man standing”.