OK, I’ll buy that. I think this is the first time I’ve been lectured about Creationism by a VJ. It would help, however, if you read few several of the other threads here before telling us to read a Bible or where to go to read Creationist fairy-tales. Most of us have already done both.

Most of us have already done both.

Les - when you wrote that it just dawned on me that the majority of Christians have never actually read the bible.  They’ve read portions of the bible and held bible studies or listened to sermons around said scripture but they haven’t actually sat down and read the entire thing.  In reading the bible cover-to-cover it becomes increasingly difficult to resolve those pesky contradictions and details and I doubt many faiths would encourage it.

BongSmokingChicken - Take a weekend and read the entire bible and then let me know if you still think it is the complete infallible, inspired word of God.

I apologize, I am not a Bong smoking Chicken.  I am TheGreatBongChicken.  It’s my legendary SN on several sites.  The name has nothing to do with drugs.  I picked the name because of a real Chinese food called “Bong Bong Chicken”.  One day, I was just sitting around and thinking of words that sound funny together and all of the sudden I remembered a chinese food that I read about long ago and almost fell over laughing about.  Then shortly after, take of one “Bong” and add “The Great” and TheGreatBongChicken is born!!!  Well… Now that that misconception is cleared up, we can move on to other misconceptions.  First… Not everyone who says “I’m a Christian” is a Christian.  I assume you know it’s about more than that.  Being Saved/Born again and being a Christian are not the same thing.(Now listen carefully here because I am about to make a point that is verry difficult to understand)I am saved/born again, that means I am going to heaven(According to the bible).  That does not mean I am a Christian(Which I am).  I am a what you call saved/bornagain Christian.  When you get “saved” or “Born again"(What ever other Christianese there is for it) That guarruntees you heaven.  But technically, you’re not a Christian unless you not only believe but live it out.  Getting to heaven is easy(Just ask Jesus to forgive you for your sins)but living the “perfect” Christian life every day is impossible.  Jesus doesn’t ask us to be perfect though, and being perfect won’t get us to heaven, being forgiven will.  Most Christians have not read the bible cover to cover because it’s HUGE!!  It’s too big to read over a weekend.  I read it on a regular basis, but I have never read the whole thing(It’s huge).  I have never read anything that’s really contradictory when read in the right context and compared among different translations.  Just because the majority of people who say they are “Christians” never read the bible doesn’t mean that the majority of people who really attempt to live out the Christian life(motivated by love, not just fear that God will strike them dead if they don’t) do not read it.  I am not trying to say those who don’t try to read the bible are not going to heaven, I am saying that they cannot technically call themselves a Christian.  I would love to stay and debate, but my school is retarded so they are blocking the site.  You can all talk to me at http://www.Christianforums.com There are several athiest, pagans, Christians, muslims, Agnostics Ect… It’s not just for Christians.  You can probably guess my screen name…
TheGreatBongChicken

A side note:
There is a book out called something like “1,000 contradictions in the bible”.  Anyways there is another book out called something like “1,000 cleared up contradictions in the bible”.

Getting to heaven is easy(Just ask Jesus to forgive you for your sins)but living the “perfectâ€? Christian life every day is impossible.  Jesus doesn’t ask us to be perfect though, and being perfect won’t get us to heaven, being forgiven will.

So THAT’S how Jeffery Dahmer got into heaven!

It’s perfectly clear.  We just get saved, then continue raping, pillaging, and plundering, and we STILL get into heaven.  Of course the religion has survived all these centuries - it’s the easy way out.

I am about to make a point that is very difficult to understand)I am saved/born again, that means I am going to heaven(According to the bible).  That does not mean I am a Christian(Which I am).  I am a what you call saved/born again Christian.

Actually, being ‘born again’ does make you Christian.  It’s being a Christian that doesn’t necessarily make you ‘born again’.  Tricky corollary argument.

The majority of Christians have staked their so-called eternal lives in a document in which they know rather little about and blindly follow the teachings of modern day religious leaders.  In turn Christians beget more Christians that are more ill informed than the last and any sort of fundamental usefulness of the religion is lost in the security blanket antics perpetrated by the modern church.

It’s one thing to be a believer in order to deal with personal issues in your own life, it’s another issue entirely to attempt to thrust those views on a nation in order to buttress your belief system.  Why not just be content that you’re going to heaven?  Or are you?  Where’s heaven?  Do you really need validation from the entire populous at large?

Bong Smoking Chicken actually made more sense but thanks for the story.

“Actually, being ‘born again’ does make you Christian.  It’s being a Christian that doesn’t necessarily make you ‘born again’.  Tricky corollary argument.”

Well, people can certainly be religious and not be saved.  They can believe in God yet not know God, but that is not what a Christian is, that’s what a religous person is.  A Christian is someone who is born again or saved and is living it out, not just someone who got saved.

“So THAT’S how Jeffery Dahmer got into heaven!

It’s perfectly clear.  We just get saved, then continue raping, pillaging, and plundering, and we STILL get into heaven.  Of course the religion has survived all these centuries - it’s the easy way out.”

I don’t know if Jeffery Dahmer got to heaven or not, but I see that there is a clear misunderstanding here.(Now I know that you don’t neccesarilly wan’t a theology lesson, but you asked for it whether intentionally or not.  But I’ll try to make it quick.) There is a teaching out there based on a scripture that says “Nothing can separate you from the Love of God, which is in Christ Jesus”.  Now if I had my bible with me I could cite, but sorry I didn’t bring it to school today.  This doctrine has caused many to believe that once you get saved, no matter what you do you are allways going to heaven.  This doctrine has been tagged “OnceSavedAlwaysSaved” or “OSAS”.  I have had many discussions about this doctrine and have had many different opinions about it.  I finally decided that for the most part, it’s not true(The doctrine, not the scripture).  If you read the scripture closely, you will see that it says “nothing can separate us from the LOVE of God”, it does not say “Nothing can separate us from God”.  This is important because God loving us doesn’t save us, we have to let him.  John 15 talks about Jesus being a vine and us being the branches, it says to stay joined to him and he will stay joined to us.  It says if we don’t than we shall be “cut off...gathered up and thrown into the fire”.  Now those two scritures can seem to contradict each other unless you read them carefully and don’t just fly over them.  The bible also says that “It is his will that none should perish” and that he loves everyone, no matter how much they hate him.  People have been arguing for centuries about just what “Stay joined to me” means… It’s pointless to debate about it right now, but the verse says that there is a point where enough is enough.  But then you say, “Is there ever hope after that?”.  Yes.  There is another scripture that says “He is able to graft them in again”.  It’s in Romans I believe(I’m tired, it’s early, I don’t have my bible).  There is also one that says “If you disown him, He will disown you.  But if you lose faith, he will not disown you, for he can not disown on his own”.  Basically I think it’s clear, it’s not about beint good, it’s about being willing to accept forgiveness.  Ted Bundy could accept it, Charles Manson could, I could, you could, Adolf Hitler could, and that just plain makes some people mad.  But those are the people Jesus died for.  Do you really think he went through all of that just so people who only did a few bad things could be forgiven?  No, he died for the rapist, murdurers, adulturers, and the not so bad people.  Sin is sin in Gods eyes.  When he was being crucified, a murdurer was no his left.  He had no time to do any good to make up for his bad, but he was still forgiven.  Why?  Because that’s how it works.  He asked for forgivness, and he got it.  God said “he who comes to me I will not cast out”.  Now let me ask you a question, who needs a doctor more, a person with a cold, or a person with a life threatening disease?  Obviously a person with a life threatening disease.  Now who needs forgivness more, a rapist/murdurer or a kid who stole a cookie from the cookie jar in Sunday School?  The only difference is, God doesn’t see little sin and big sin, he just see’s sin.  That’s why Jesus had to die for us, to take our punishment so that we wouldn’t have to.  He also had to live a perfect life, remenicent of the passover, with the blood of an innocent lamb on the door.  Death passed over the houses with the blood of the lamb on them, and eternal death will pass over the souls covered by the blood of the lamb.

When you get “savedâ€? or “Born again"(What ever other Christianese there is for it) That guarruntees you heaven.  But technically, you’re not a Christian unless you not only believe but live it out.  Getting to heaven is easy(Just ask Jesus to forgive you for your sins)but living the “perfectâ€? Christian life every day is impossible.  Jesus doesn’t ask us to be perfect though, and being perfect won’t get us to heaven, being forgiven will.

A Christian is someone who is born again or saved and is living it out, not just someone who got saved.

So what you’re saying is we only need to be saved to go to heaven, not be Christian.

This doctrine has been tagged “OnceSavedAlwaysSavedâ€? or “OSASâ€?.  I have had many discussions about this doctrine and have had many different opinions about it.  I finally decided that for the most part, it’s not true(The doctrine, not the scripture).

Did you change your mind between posts?

The only difference is, God doesn’t see little sin and big sin, he just see’s sin.

I find a “one size fits all” punishment to be unacceptable and unjust.  Like having the death penalty for jaywalking.

So many bong-smoking religoids, so little time!

GreatBongChickenAndRice:

Has it occurred to you to wonder:  If the Bible is the word of god and god is infallible and he wants us to believe in the Bible, except Christ, and all that crapola (I’m sure you’ll agree those are all reasonably universal beliefs in Christianity)...then why are there so many arguments and interpretations of the Bible?!

You just said yourself that some think that “Once Saved Always Saved” isn’t true because of the nuance of the wording (which is, BTW, a tad questionable since the Bible has been translated and retranslated many times and, as we all know, no language is entirely precise).  You don’t believe it, but many Christians do.  If you think these Christians are otherwise decent people and try to follow the word of god, why would god purposefully allow them to follow an inaccurate interpretation that could lead to their missing out on heaven and all the candy?

Isn’t it infinitely more likely that the Bible was written by men...very superstitious men (remember, this is gotta be like 1700+ years before Newtonian physics even) who attributed natural laws of the universe to some more powerful creature that they couldn’t see, believing he lived in the sky that must have seemed awfully large and awesome back then…

Damn, no edit button.  That should be “accept” Christ (which would make a lot more sense in that sentence...)

“So what you’re saying is we only need to be saved to go to heaven, not be Christian.”

Yes.  Exactly

“Did you change your mind between posts?”

No.  What made you think I did?

“I find a “one size fits allâ€? punishment to be unacceptable and unjust.  Like having the death penalty for jaywalking.”

Than argue with God, not me.  I didn’t write the bible, I just believe it.  The good thing about the “One size fits all” is that it makes salvation a “One size fits all” doctrine.  Anyone can get it. 

“GreatBongChickenAndRice:

Has it occurred to you to wonder:  If the Bible is the word of god and god is infallible and he wants us to believe in the Bible, except Christ, and all that crapola (I’m sure you’ll agree those are all reasonably universal beliefs in Christianity)...then why are there so many arguments and interpretations of the Bible?!

You just said yourself that some think that “Once Saved Always Savedâ€? isn’t true because of the nuance of the wording (which is, BTW, a tad questionable since the Bible has been translated and retranslated many times and, as we all know, no language is entirely precise).  You don’t believe it, but many Christians do.  If you think these Christians are otherwise decent people and try to follow the word of god, why would god purposefully allow them to follow an inaccurate interpretation that could lead to their missing out on heaven and all the candy?

Isn’t it infinitely more likely that the Bible was written by men...very superstitious men (remember, this is gotta be like 1700+ years before Newtonian physics even) who attributed natural laws of the universe to some more powerful creature that they couldn’t see, believing he lived in the sky that must have seemed awfully large and awesome back then…”

Well, let’s take this one piece at a time.

Ahem…

(clears throat)

“If the Bible is the word of god… then why are there so many arguments and interpretations of the Bible?!”

People who read the bible with different mindsets are going to read the same thing and get something different out of it.  I will not argue that there are many different churches and denominations within the Christian faith, but nonetheless, regardless of whether they are into Mass, the eucharist, or baby baptism, or adult baptism, they all have the same concept of salvation.  That is, Jesus dying on the cross to pay for our sins.  They all believe that there is only one way to salvation like Jesus said in Mathew, Mark, Luke and John “I am THE Way, THE Truth and THE Life.  Nobody comes to the father but through me”.  That is a statement that no Christian will argue whether they are Protestant, Catholic, Russian Orthodox or Messianic( The four major sects within).  There are many differences of opinion between those four groups, but if you go to one and ask the other if the other groups are still Christian they will say yes.  I have many friends of all four groups(Baptist, Roman Catholic, Messianic Jews, Jesuit, Pentocostal(Like myself), Methodist, Presbyterian, AG… I could go on and on but it would be pointless) and they all agree that we are all saved and going to heaven.

“...a tad questionable since the Bible has been translated and retranslated many times and, as we all know, no language is entirely precise...”

Allow me to educate you fair sir.  The bible was translated by scribes in the begining.  They wrote it all down and compared it diligently with the former.  Once the former was all worn out they used the new copies.  Soon people in far away lands wanted bibles.  The church exploded and was scattered all over.  They sent out scrolls with the scriptures on them to all of the individual places and told them to each continue the copying proccess independantly.  They did so.  So many hundreds of years later they were making the KJV and decided to gather all of the different scrolls now copied several times over from all of the several different places and compare them.  They did so and recieved hundreds of copies of each book and then compared them.  It took much time but in the end they found out that the only differences were in spelling and grammar.  That was how the KJV was put together.  Aside from the fact that they changed the book of Jacob to the book of James in honor of King James himself, it was an accurate translation.  Now there are many translations out.  I read them all, and I have to say that for the most part, they all say the same thing, just with different wording.

“...why would god purposefully allow them to follow an inaccurate interpretation that could lead to their missing out on heaven and all the candy?”

Having the wrong theology doesn’t mean you aren’t saved.  It means you have the wrong theology.  The bible doesn’t say John 3:16 “For God so loved the world… that whoever has the right theology… Shall have eternal life” No, it says “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son, that whosoever believes in him shall not persih, but have eternal life.”
Like I said, getting to heaven is easy, just get saved (For the most part as far as I’m concerned, you’d have to go pretty far to lose that.  Look it up for your self and decide whether that’s what it says or not.)

“Why not just be content that you’re going to heaven?  Or are you?  Where’s heaven?  Do you really need validation from the entire populous at large?”

I can’t bear the thought of you or anyone suffering in Hell forever, and neither can God.  So that is why I talk to people like you and others.  The reason is Love.  I know that makes people cringe, but that’s the reason.  I don’t get “Religous Brownie Girl Points” for this, I don’t care either, I just care about people.  I wan’t them to know what I know.

TheGreatBongChicken see’s a misconception!!  He must do something about it!
He will tell you this:

I did not mean to or intend to make anyone here think that I am belonging to or in anyway promoting “ChristianExodus”.  I have personally never even heard of them untill your post.  I do not agree with them, and was not necessarily tryint to defend them.  I was defending Christians as a whole, and at times that may get me thrown into the same category as the ChristianExodus guys but I do not intentionally associate myself with them.  I do not completely agree with what they are doing, they have good intentions, but I feel there methods are incorrect.  But then again, I have never really talked to one before so I don’t know.  From what I have seen, I do not promote what they are trying to do.  So I(TheGreatBongChicken) apoligize for possibly (unintentionally) leading some of you to believe I was part of the organization.

“...no edit button.  That should be “acceptâ€? Christ (which would make a lot more sense in that sentence...)”

No prob, buddy.  I got what you were saying.

It is so hard to take anything you say seriously.

No.  What made you think I did?

B/c you go and tout that being saved guarantees you heaven, and later you say you disagree with that thinking. 

Than argue with God, not me.  I didn’t write the bible, I just believe it.

Maybe God is speaking through you, so you would therefore be required to answer the question. 

Having the wrong theology doesn’t mean you aren’t saved.  It means you have the wrong theology.

And since you only need to be saved, does theology really matter?

“It is so hard to take anything you say seriously.”

sorry.  Another particular reason I selected this SN was to sort of give off a “Down to earth” vibe.  Ya know, not the traditional “Holier than thou art” Christian mindset. 

“B/c you go and tout that being saved guarantees you heaven, and later you say you disagree with that thinking.”

NO no no… I probably should have been more careful about the wording that I selected(My own, not the scriptures).  I apologize, I will attempt to clarify it.  What I personally believe about the issue is that once you ask Jesus to forgive you for your sins, no action or sin you commit is big enough to take away that forgiveness.  In other words God will never deny you forgiveness, but(This is where the “but” comes in)just because he offers it doesn’t mean we accept it.  I believe the only thing that could stop ust from recieving forgivness is our willingness to recieve it.  It says that “if we disown him, he will disown him, but if we lose faith, he will not disown us, for he cannot disown on his own”.  In order for him to “disown” us we have to willingly disown him first.  And even after that it says he can graft us in again.

gtg.  I’ll get back

“And since you only need to be saved, does theology really matter?”

As long as you as Jesus Christ to forgive you for your sins you are saved and going to heaven(As long as you don’t totally reject God and change YOUR mind).  Alot of Christians have different views on subjects such as the Rapture, OSAS, speaking in toungues, ect… Basically, I would say that Theology doesn’t affect whether you go to Heaven or not, BUT(And there’s that annoying little “but") it may affect how you think which affects how you live.  So I definately think that all who accept Jesus are going to heaven regardless of theological doctrine issues as long as they never turn away from God willingly.

Sorry gtg bus is here.  PM me at http://www.ChristianForums.com if you would like to talk more often, I can rarely get on here because of my school.  It’s been interesting chatting.

How do you make the quotes blue?  It looks really cool.

You take off your shoe and beat the comment until it’s black and blue?

Failing that, I use the quote BBcode tags, but you can presumably use HTML-style blockquote tags, as well.

Try something like [ quote ]QUOTED TEXT[ / quote ] without the spaces between the square brackets; it should yield

QUOTED TEXT

Hmm… Let’s give this a try

Ahem....

BongChicken is trying to make a blue quote

Now let’s try the first method.

BongChicken is trying to make a blue quote

(BongChicken takes off his shoes and beats the quote until the screen breaks and then he decides that he likes the other one better)

Hey cool.  I did it!!  Yay!

I’m confused. Okay, someone thinks being gay is immoral. Personally, I don’t see how two people loving each other is immoral, but hey, have at it! You don’t like abortion. Okay, so ... don’t get one. All of these points are moot. We’re not a theocracy. We’re supposed to be a democracy. So, EVERYONE gets religious freedom. Not just certain groups. Moreover, it isn’t a question of morality at all. It’s actually a question of being treated equally under the law. Using the example of someone who is homosexual, it is not whether or not you think it’s immoral. Instead, the actual pertinent question is whether you believe everyone should be treated equally under the law. If you do believe it, then people who are gay should be able to get married. If you don’t believe it, then, well, maybe it’s time to go support that theocractic dictatorship you really want, instead of a democracy.

Hmm. Now that I’ve read this, I see that’s what they’re doing. They’re moving to South Carolina to start their own theocratic dictatorship. Not that it isn’t happening already to a certain extent.

Well, then, instead of disguising it as some sort of democratic call, they should just be honest.

You know, “We’re a group of Christians who want to force everyone else to believe what we believe--the hell with the Constitution and Bill of Rights! Oh, yeah! And to hell with the love thy neighbor as thyself, turn the other cheek thing, too!”

I know many very nice, wonderful Christians, but frankly, some of them are just buttheads, really.

By the way, great place you have here.

It’s not Christians that pull this stuff, it’s Protestants. Stop with the generalisations.

Uhm…

It’s not Christians that pull this stuff, it’s Protestants.

Almost sounds like ”No True Scotsman”, no?

Hate to break it to you, Protestants, Catholics, the Westboro Batshit Church, Fundamentalists, Quakers, and a whole bunch of others are all Christians… they all may not like being lumped in with the others, but they are all Christists

John, I have taken to call it the “No True Christian^TM fallacy” instead.

Heh…

Yeah… why denigrate Scotsmen further