This is just sad. Honestly, martial arts has its advantages, believe me, but if an opponent is determined enough, nothing will stop them. I’ve seen woman old and frail enough to piss dust take down grown men with pain compliance techniques and I’ve seen self defense instructors beaten senseless by people who’ve had no training whatsoever. This is just sad.

One of the priority conditions for candidates will reportedly be knowledge of kung fu

Why? So they can get beaten up?  Too much is made of martial arts- they don’t work like Bruce Lee movies. Virtually all martial arts are sports, and so stylised. As a martial arts teacher once told me, try a kick to the head against a quick enough opponent, and you feel really stupid as he grabs your ankle and holds you like an open pair of scissors.  I believe this feeling of stupidity lasts about 3 seconds. They then swing you round, pull you onto the floor, and stamp on any part of your body they choose (think about this one boys...).

We are given to understand that “Bond knew and used the basic holds of Judo” which basically meant he got a lot of headbutts in the nose and knees in the crotch.

There are a number of fighting styles developed by various law enforcement agencies and more specialised military units, such as Savate, which rely much more on the dirty strret fighting techniques the rough boys in bad parts of town use.

So, Last_Hussar, what you’re saying is that my awesome Tai Chi skillz will not help me win the war on terra!? Damn… I knew I should’ve taken up needle point instead.

You’ll be fine, but only if the terrorists moooooooovvvvvvveeeeeee rrrrrrreeeeeeaaaaalllyy sssssslllllloooooowwwwwllllyyy.

Story I heard from one of my instuctors was that one instructer we knew was sleeping with somebody’s wife.  Husband of said wife caught that instructor in the parking lot as he was getting out of his car.  Husband pushes door to so that instructor’s head was sticking out and pinned between door and roof.  Husband then uses instructor’s head as punching bag. 

I knew street fighters in my younger days who could care less about black belts.  To them it meant nothing until you had been in a real throwdown. 

State of mind is a big factor in any fight. 

Of course martial arts don’t work like Bruce Lee movies - didn’t he have different cameras film the same techinique and play each take to make it look like multiple kicks?  And you can’t settle it in the Thunderdome either, so forget about any fancy wire work. 

Besides, if a stewardess starts fighting with a hijacker, it’s likely to prompt passengers to jump in and help.

LH: You’ll be fine, but only if the terrorists moooooooovvvvvvveeeeeee rrrrrrreeeeeeaaaaalllyy sssssslllllloooooowwwwwllllyyy.

I thought of saying that. 

Al Capone: You can go a long way with a smile.
You can go a lot farther with a smile and a gun.

Haven’t they already invented a pistol and ammo that won’t show up on an airport security X-ray?

It’s nice to see the US isn’t the only country wasting money on worthless shit.

Virtually all martial arts are sports, and so stylised.

I think you haven’t studied any Chinese martial arts.  Try Choy Lay Fut, Ving Tsun, or San Shou.  I guess though it depends more on the instructors.  The best instructor I had was one that taught us practical techniques that could be used in real life.  Not that stupid pointless shit you learn in Tae Kwan Do.  Which for me was interesting, since I quickly found out my style I learned in Tae Kwan Do was worthless.

The Translation and Intention of the Airline seems to be the missed issue. When the Airline say’s “Trained “ what are the referring too? 20 minute course ? or Expert ? Twenty years ago I went through a 4 year Academy taught by the Koreans. I have a second degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. Yeah a lot of it was about History, Forms, Exercise, and Mental concentration principles. What I left with was an abundance of confidence and determination in what I undertake, that I do!!! Regardless if it’s hitting a nail with a hammer, or stopping someone from harming me. It’s not about style, It’s about the person’s mental determination. A law enforcement technique of grabbing someone by throat and locking down thier air-way is good. But you have to have the inner confidence in yourself to do that. And that is what Martial Arts is about. Building the inside of a person, The USMC does the same thing. Al-Quieda does it too. So now the Airlines want in on it, and I applaud thier beginning. You fight fire with fire. The one with most wins. I found this to be true in most confrontations. It’s not about kicking or punching, It’s about the confidence level in your voice (Persona) that wins. If it escalates beyond that, a thumb twisted behind someones back, or a nicely cracked rib works. If I had to take a plane down, I would not want to go through my Teacher to do it. And I would not suggest others to do so either. You’ll probably lose....

This still worries me. As Hussar put it, there are much more potent styles of fighting in the world. I’ve been qualified as a combat skills instructor here in Sicily and although I believe that in an ordinary fight these skills may come in handy, its going to do nothing against a determined opponent. Case in point, every MA here who stands on a gate has been trained in basic hand to hand combat as well as various small arms, etc. However, we still have an overwatch for every gate who is armed with an M16A2E3. The point? Don’t bring a knife edge of a hand to a gun fight. I still say this is just stupid.

Don’t bring a knife edge of a hand to a gun fight.

Agreed. Since Bruce Lee’s been mentioned a few times, I’d like to point out that he essentially believed the same thing. A person with a gun, even at close range, is like a fighter with a deadly blow and only the slightest of a telegraph - usually the twitch of a finger. At a distance, a gun is such a severe advantage over an unarmed assailant that you’d be stupid not to run. Even if your opponent only has a knife or something, you are still at a disadvantage.

But that said, it really depends on the kind of training going on. Martial arts should be appreciated as an art form, but used as a tool. Train competent people to be tools and it might actually work better

The Topic of Air-Security encompasses many factors, Personal defense of the staff is just one they are attempting to work on, which is better than just completely ignoring it.( It’s a starting Point ) The Ground Crew Security and observation is where this should start. Even a good Military working Dog could be taught to sniff out suspicious people, My Dog can tell me who not to Trust..Not to change topics..But if the Airline Security staff feels uncomfortable with you for any reason. Then your not leaving until everybody is satisfied. Another outlet that I would rather see used. If the Airline is uncomfortable with you, they can elect special seating for you, If you don’t mind being confined and hand-cuffed to your chair under armed guards, then you get to go. 3 classes of Travel, First Class, Economy, Gitmo. And if the Arabs don’t like,"Tuff Shit” Don’t Travel..Problem Solved

Paul, I’m gonna call you on this one. I’ve been working with Military Working Dogs and their handlers for almost two years now and there is nothing to say that they are capable of detecting a suspicious person. Of course, you have a point with airline security, at least they are trying. No one would fault them for that, we I would argue is that they are going about it completely wrong.

Hey Paul. As the USA uses 25% of the worlds energy, howabout if the rest of us limit your fuel usage to the 4% that is your proportion of the population.

Tuff Shit

Or as US forces are currently the number one in killing civilians, howabout other countries start prosocuting as them as war criminals, even though Bush refuses.

Tuff Shit

Howabout given the racism in the south all white men have to handcuffed to 2 black men at all times to stop the racist killings.

Tuff Shit

As a western man you are the most likely to commit a crime. Lets put you in jail, just in case.

Tuff Shit

Neodromos, My comments about the Animals was mostly speculation, However I did read a de-classified report about an Israli Terrorism Task Force that was using Canines. The Theroy was based on Chemistry. A local school in Israel used the public water supply. If an outsider came in, the scent of that person would alert the dog. All the people who drank had a urine smell that was equal, and outsider who had drank different water had a different urine smell was alerted by the dog as a stanger. Also on the A&E Channel I watched a program about dogs where they were taught to alert in Cancer studies. The Dogs could differientiate in a woman, Benign and Malignant Tumors. Ovarian and Uterus. Very Smart… I think what I am suggesting is that if the Dogs were used in a Airport Scenario, the alert trigger would have to be a very guarded secret as to what alerts the dog. And as for Hussar’s comments
http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d143/kaseykahne9_2005/?action=view&current=arnoldstfu.jpg

I think using dogs at the airport is a horrible idea.  It encroaches on civil liberties.  I know I don’t want a dog sniffing my ass when I am trying to visit my grandparent.

On another topic…

But if the Airline Security staff feels uncomfortable with you for any reason. Then your not leaving until everybody is satisfied.

So I suppose that if a black flight attendant felt uncomfortable with your racist ass then the flight would not leave until she is satisfied appropriate measures were taken.

Another outlet that I would rather see used. If the Airline is uncomfortable with you, they can elect special seating for you, If you don’t mind being confined and hand-cuffed to your chair under armed guards, then you get to go. 3 classes of Travel, First Class, Economy, Gitmo.

Okay, using the scenario from above I say we take racist piece of shits like you and cuff you down in public places.  Non-racist tax payers like myself don’t feel comfortable with you being able to roam freely, and feel you are a security risk.  But according to your illogical idiot reasoning that is ok right?

And if the Arabs don’t like,"Tuff Shit” Don’t Travel..Problem Solved

You know Paul, people like you are the reason why I feel uncomfortable with people from other countries.  I wonder if they see comments like yours and the flag next to your name, and equate your intelligence with those strips and stars. 

You are probably one of those that make sure everyone knows that America is spreading freedom and democracy around the world.  When you want to take exactly that away from your own citizens.  What a great message to send huh…

Man, I just don’t see a downside to this.  Kung-fu stewardesses!  An invincible corps of hot women with mysterious powers.  Next up: the producer of Shao Lin Soccer does a hilarious movie about terrorists getting their asses kicked in a triumphant final scene…

OK, I guess I’m not taking this as seriously as I should.  But the more nonterrorists on a plane who know how to fight, the better.

Well I should add for Husar’s and Web’s Benefit. With regards to the Gitmo remark. And Arabs. It does not make any difference who or what you are. If the Airline is not comfortable with you, then you could elect to sit it the Gitmo ( Contained ) Section. That would include White Drunk Cowboys, or Black Drunk CEO’s. It is not about race, it’s about safety.

I think using dogs at the airport is a horrible idea.  It encroaches on civil liberties.  I know I don’t want a dog sniffing my ass when I am trying to visit my grandparent.

Actually, according to the courts it doesn’t encroach on civil liberties at all, regardless of the fact that you submit to security screening, voluntarily waiving some rights, once you walk through a metal detector.

That being said, there’s practical reasons that having dogs wouldn’t work too well.  They’re expensive and time consuming to train, need frequent breaks, and get distracted in noisy environments like airports.

Actually, according to the courts it doesn’t encroach on civil liberties at all

This was for very specific cases, and the dissenting opinion in every case still had strong support from the other judges.  Also, every time, the judges of the dissenting opinion have said that people just lost more of their civil liberties. 

As far as the metal detector, the reason that does not encroach on your liberties is because (in a perfect scenario) it doesn’t take anymore time to have someone walk through a metal detector on their way to a flight.  A dog has to spend some time sniffing to narrow down a scent of someone in a busy place like an airport.  So you would have a hard time convincing me that having a dog sniff me in the airport would not make me wait. 

Have ever been stopped by the police and had a dog sniff your car in a residential area when being pulled over for speeding?  And have the people looking out their windows?  And don’t forget about the ones in the cars driving by very slowly with their windows rolled down to get a good look at me.  I thought I was guilty for a minute. Anyways, it was not fun, and coming from experience I can only imagine what it would be like at an airport.

A more efficient use of dogs would be to have them sniff luggage that was boarding the plane, which would not hold people up, since they are waiting to board anyways.

In any case, just give me the Ninja Stewardess.  She can check me for paraphernalia any day!

Given the choice between having trained staff or not, as DOF says, I can’t see a down side.

As for Bruce Lee, he took part in street fights when he was young in Hong Kong, he knew about how to put people down.

On the issue about dogs being used in airports, there are already, but as far as I can see they are for drug detection, although this may now also include explosives detection (UK).

As far as the metal detector, the reason that does not encroach on your liberties is because (in a perfect scenario) it doesn’t take anymore time to have someone walk through a metal detector on their way to a flight.  A dog has to spend some time sniffing to narrow down a scent of someone in a busy place like an airport.  So you would have a hard time convincing me that having a dog sniff me in the airport would not make me wait.

The wait is irrelevant as far as air travel is concerned. 

I made plenty of people wait as I rooted around in their bags back when I worked at the TSA (like on occasions when something fell through a hole in the lining of a purse and I wanted to get it out without cutting another hole)/patted them down, used a hand held metal detector (sometimes randomly). 

The way it was explained to me, a person consents to all necessary security screening once they step through the metal detector.  At that point, they’ve already willingly submitted themselves to one form of screening, and implicitly consent to further screening.

Wow, mad props to you for working that job and still having your wits about you. I thought Disney World was a rough a job, but on second thought working at the TSA or a DMV would probably be a little rougher.

The wait is irrelevant as far as air travel is concerned.

I know from my classes I had that dealt with law, that time is relevant assuming your rights have not already been waived.  So in the case of the man pulled over in Illinois and had his car sniffed, the Supreme Court assumed that the man did not have to wait any longer after being pulled over, so having the dogs sniff his car was not an unreasonable search.

So you are correct, time is irrelevant if we assume the dogs are sniffing people after they walk through the metal detector.  However, if they were held up from reaching their flight, could a case be made for unreasonable search?  Did the issue ever come up?

The thing about air travel is that you’re voluntarily waiving some rights.  You’re using a private air carrier for your transport, not a personal car on a public roadway, so there are fewer guarantees.  I haven’t flown in a few years, but I’m willing to wager that there’s some consent granted by purchase of a ticket as well.

There would be no grounds for an unreasonable search if a person misses their flight provided there’s no willfull/wanton misconduct on the part of TSA or police at the airport (and since we’re talking federal policy here, you can forget about suing and recovering any money from the federal government).  All necessary security measures/screening have been consented to the moment somebody walks through the walkthrough metal detector.  If somebody decides they don’t want to be hand wanded/ETD tested, etc, they get escorted back to the non-secure side of the terminal (it did occasionally happen when somebody decided that they didn’t want to be checked after alarming).

They might be able to get their tickets switched over to another flight, but that’s an airline decision.

Interesting point about civil liberties. Of course, the assumption that you submit to search upon entering an airport is valid, that is, if course, unless you intend to walk right back out the door. Another interesting point would be the use of dogs and searches within an international terminal. Within the confines of the terminal, state and federal law do not necessarily apply because the terminal itself is not under the jurisdiction of the state or the federal government. Of course, the property is still under the ownership of a private individual so so certain property law is still applicable as well as the inherent right to self defence which allows airports to ensure the safety of passengers within the terminal, but otherwise, the terminal itself is a legal grey area.

You must excuse me for not being up on my law terminology, but I think that Federal government does have jurisdiction over international terminals because of the Commerce Clause.  I believe that is what it is called at least.  This allows for the feds to have jurisdiction since the International terminal affects US commerce.

But regardless it is an interesting subject.