Whether you love or Hate Bush, he’s right. It’s the national anthem for America, so it should be sung in English.

Also, all American citizens should know how to speak American English. I’m not going to move to France, without knowing how to speak French. If you don’t care enough to learn how to communicate with the people of that country, don’t live there. Plain and simple.

Whether you love or Hate Bush, he’s right. It’s the national anthem for America, so it should be sung in English.

Actually, according to the First Amendment, the national anthem can be sung in whatever language one wishes. Sing it in Klingon if you so desire.

If you don’t care enough to learn how to communicate with the people of that country, don’t live there. Plain and simple.

What makes you so sure that it’s simply a matter of “not caring enough” to learn English? English is reportedly one of the planet’s most difficult languages to learn. I’m sure that lots of immigrants at least try to learn English or desire to be fluent in it. Some just have trouble doing so.

James makes the following assertion…

Whether you love or Hate Bush, he’s right. It’s the national anthem for America, so it should be sung in English.

So explain to me why it “should” be sung in English and what’s so bad about singing it in a different language? If the intent is the same, the love of country is the same, then what difference does it make if it’s sung in, say, Pig Latin?

Also, all American citizens should know how to speak American English. I’m not going to move to France, without knowing how to speak French. If you don’t care enough to learn how to communicate with the people of that country, don’t live there. Plain and simple.

From a practicality standpoint I agree with you, but I don’t think it’s an issue of them not caring enough to bother to learn the language. Honestly I think it’s a testament on how much some of these people love America that they’re willing to try and live here despite the difficulties that come from being illiterate in the native language.

But I don’t recall anything in the Constitution that requires knowledge of English in order to be an American citizen.

Actually, according to the First Amendment, the national anthem can be sung in whatever language one wishes. Sing it in Klingon if you so desire.

Note the use of the word “should” in what I said. It’s important to what I actually said.

So explain to me why it “should� be sung in English and what’s so bad about singing it in a different language?

Because it’s the “American anthem.” If I was going to sing the French one, I’d do so in French, out of respect for the origins of the song and the people for whom it relates to and matters most. It’s a courtesy thing.

From a practicality standpoint I agree with you, but I don’t think it’s an issue of them not caring enough to bother to learn the language. Honestly I think it’s a testament on how much some of these people love America that they’re willing to try and live here despite the difficulties that come from being illiterate in the native language.

Love it so much, they can’t communicate with the majority of the population of America. Love it so much they don’t want to go through the process of becoming a legal citizen of the country, the way millions of others have.

Maybe it’s just the cynic in me, but I doubt love of this country is their reasoning, given the issues I just outlined. They might love some of the oppertunities they can get in America, that they can’t anywhere else, but the fact they can’t be bothered to learn how to communicate with the people of the country, certainly doesn’t show me they “love” America.

Of course, the fact that a good portion of those who can’t speak the language, aren’t able to get educated because they are living in the the country illegally, is just another of the reasons I doubt the “love”. If you love America, then go through the process to become a citizen, no matter how much a pain in the ass it might be. After all, when you “love” something, you’d do just about anything for it, wouldn’t you? Or… wouldn’t you?

Love it so much, they can’t communicate with the majority of the population of America. Love it so much they don’t want to go through the process of becoming a legal citizen of the country, the way millions of others have.

Love it so much, they can’t communicate with the majority of the population of America. Love it so much they don’t want to go through the process of becoming a legal citizen of the country, the way millions of others have.

Maybe it’s just the cynic in me, but I doubt love of this country is their reasoning, given the issues I just outlined. They might love some of the oppertunities they can get in America, that they can’t anywhere else, but the fact they can’t be bothered to learn how to communicate with the people of the country, certainly doesn’t show me they “love� America.

James, you’re making an awful lot of assumptions about a very large group of people. Cynical, indeed.

And tell me, outside of the opportunities (and in some cases, freedom) that immigrants can find in America, what else is there to love about it? Do you believe that this country has some sort of intrinsic value outside of its social/economic/political structures? Frankly, with attitudes such as yours (and you certainly are not alone), why would you expect immigrants to love this country in the first place?

James, you’re making an awful lot of assumptions about a very large group of people. Cynical, indeed.
And tell me, outside of the opportunities (and in some cases, freedom) that immigrants can find in America, what else is there to love about it? Do you believe that this country has some sort of intrinsic value outside of its social/economic/political structures? Frankly, with attitudes such as yours (and you certainly are not alone), why would you expect immigrants to love this country in the first place?

Yes, I do think there’s an intrinsic value in America beyond the socio-politico-economic one.

See, I feel that all the freedom we have is all well and good, but very few stop to think about the responibilities it comes with. Freedom of speech, for example. Yes, we all love to be able to say what we want. And the right to it does protect speech you hate, not just love. But how many think about the consequences of that freedom? That just because you have the RIGHT to say something, doesn’t mean you SHOULD say it. Not very many, from my view.

I think too many immigrants allow themselves to be under the false illusions of what being in America is all about. Yes, you have oppertunites that probably can not be found elsewhere in the world. That’s why they come here. But it’s not all rainbows and sunshine. While America can let you be what you want to be, it certainly doesn’t let you do it easily. There’s a lot of bullshit and pain-in-the-ass nonsense you have to deal with to get that right. Just like ANY relationship, you have to take the good with the bad. Unfortunately, illegal immigrants don’t want to. That makes me question the “love” they have for America.

I don’t like the shit i have to deal with as a citizen of America sometimes, but I DO deal with it, because I know it comes with the territory and I truly do “love” this country.

Being an American DOES have it’s perks. Of that you can be sure. But they don’t come cheap or easy. And it’s being able to accept that and still strive for them anyway, that shows a true “love” of America and a respect for her people. Just as singing the country’s national anthem in her native tounge does.

James said:

Unfortunately, illegal immigrants don’t want to.

Mate, you keep going on about illegal immigrants.
You make this silly leap of faithful logic, or is that logical faith, to believe that anyone who can’t or isn’t courageous or smart enough to learn the language of the country in which they live, must be an illegal.

There is at least one other way of looking at the issue of the Spanish version of your NA. They love and respect the country so much they wanted to sing a song about it and the NA sounds good and it’s also patriotic, to them.
You may or may not like this fact, but 10.7% of your US population is Spanish speaking: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People
That’s almost 30 million. Imagine them all singing your NA with passion and gusto. Nah, I can’t see it either but, imagine if they did.

You make this silly leap of faithful logic, or is that logical faith, to believe that anyone who can’t or isn’t courageous or smart enough to learn the language of the country in which they live, must be an illegal.

Considering many the demonstrations when the anthem is sung in Spanish are those dealing with the current issue of illegal immigration, it doesn’t take a PhD in rocet science to figure out why.

They love and respect the country so much they wanted to sing a song about it and the NA sounds good and it’s also patriotic, to them.

Then take the next step and learn the language in which it was originally written in. If you have the love and patriotism, it should be a big burden, should it?

You may or may not like this fact, but 10.7% of your US population is Spanish speaking: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People
That’s almost 30 million.

Which leaves 89.3 % of the population that does not. Majority rules, even in America.

Imagine them all singing your NA with passion and gusto. Nah, I can’t see it either but, imagine if they did.

Well, since it’s a moot point by even your own admission…

Seriously, maybe if it wasn’t the fact they are singing it in Spanish at protests, it might not seem like it’s meant more as an insult, rather then a true love of what the song stands for.

I’ve admitted I’m a cynic on this. And so far, no one has provided anything to make me feel differently. I suppose this is simply one of thos things where we just have to agree to disagree. Something which is also a right provided for in America.

James, I agree with just about everything you say because, being a laid back apathetic Ozzie, I don’t really give a fuck one way or another what people do, think or say as long as they don’t throw their rocks into my glass house.
I haven’t noticed any yet.
But, when you crumple logic and say:

Which leaves 89.3 % of the population that does not. Majority rules, even in America.

You shoulda followed with ‘nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah’.

I wonder if you realise that all of the 89.3% won’t agree with your point of view.
Wouldn’t it be boring for you if they did though? Just the two of you: you and your version of the Spanish collective?
Oh, by the way, I like some of the stuff you’ve written on your god, you’re a fuckwit, site. And I like the name of the site; especially its at-least-four-way ambiguity.
Made me grin a bit.

James: But how many think about the consequences of that freedom? That just because you have the RIGHT to say something, doesn’t mean you SHOULD say it. Not very many, from my view.

But who decides what “should” or “should not” be said? The majority? It doesn’t work like that, James. In America we are protected from the tyranny of the majority. You may not like it that some immigrants (illegal or not) sing the anthem in Spanish, but that does not mean that they “should not.”

For the record, I would generally agree that societies work best when the citizens speak one common language. However, I see nothing wrong (in fact I see numerous positives) to at least having some Spanish or other foreign languages being spoken in the public sphere. Diversity is good.

Considering many the demonstrations when the anthem is sung in Spanish are those dealing with the current issue of illegal immigration, it doesn’t take a PhD in rocet science to figure out why.

Has it occurred to you that, perhaps because these people are participating in demonstrations, that they may be engaging in more extreme tactics to get their point across? Have you ever participated in a mass protest? I have several times, and there are some people who will take fairly exaggerated measures in the heat of the moment. Demonstrations aren’t an everyday activity for most people. You’ve got to expect that some of them might get a little worked up and *GASP* possibly offend some people.

But who decides what “should� or “should not� be said? The majority? It doesn’t work like that, James. In America we are protected from the tyranny of the majority.

WTF?  The majority can to decide that English is going to be the only language.  It sure as hell is not tyranny to mandate that if someone wants particular privileges, you learn the damn language.  You don’t learn the language you don’t get the privileges.

I don’t know what is happening elsewhere, but this isn’t playing well here.  If the Republicans want a wedge issue to get out the vote, all they need to do is turn their backs on Bush and his stupid idea regarding de facto amnesty for Mexicans only and they have it.

Have any of you even read the lyrics of the Spanish version of our National Anthem??
Go to this link Spanish Version of U.S. National Anthemand you will see the lyrics there - they aren’t our lyrics.

It was rewritten by British music producer Adam Kidron who has been a US citizen for 16yrs.

Here is a sample from the Spanish version:

We are brothers in our anthem.

In fierce combat, a symbol of victory

(My people fight on.)

and the march toward liberty.

(The time has come to break the chains.)

Does that sound like the Star Spangled Banner??

According to the United States Citizenship requirements, of which there are nine (9), here is a small sample of one very important requirement: 

The ability to read, write and speak ordinary English unless they are physically unable to do so due to a disability such as being blind or deaf, or suffer from a developmental disability or mental impairment.

(they can be found at:U.S. Immigration Naturaliztion Requirements )

So it is not a question of love, it is a question of desire and legality that one who wishes to become a citizen of the U.S. learn the English language.

As to the Spanish version of our National Anthem it is but a perversion of it, full of slogans that should be on posterboard instead of a national anthem.  And most importantly the wording has been changed, thus changing the entire meaning of the anthem.

You don’t learn the language you don’t get the privileges.

Agreed. But that has nothing to do with whether or not the national anthem should or should not be sung in Spanish (on one’s own time), now does it?

It is not a question of whether they are singing our U.S. National Anthem’s lyrics as written by Francis Scott Key in Spanish, it is a MATTER of them singing the Spanish version of a national anthem created by Adam Kidron and trying to say it is Our’s.

There may be more agreement here than is apparent, but we need to distinguish the issues.  As Sadie points out, singing in Spanish is not the same as not learning English.  I’m all in favor of making knowledge of basic English a requirement for American citizenship.  If such a law had been enforced in 2000, we wouldn’t have been saddled with the current Administration.

The other issue is whether or not people should sing Spanish lyrics to the melody of “The Star Spangled Banner”.  As far as I can tell from the article Les cites, no one claimed that this song was the “American National Anthem"-

His [Bush’s] remarks followed release of the Spanish language version of the song, called “Nuestro Himno” or “Our Anthem.”

“Our Anthem” is not the same as “the American National Anthem”, is it?  Not that it would disturb me if they had claimed it was- national anthems, like flags and pledges, should be satirized, to remind people that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
By the way, the melody of “The Star Spangled Banner” was swiped from a popular British song “To Anacreon in Heav’n”.  Here’s the first verse:

To Anacreon in Heaven, where he sat in full glee,
A few sons of Harmony sent a petition,
That He their Inspirer and Patron would be;
When this answer arrived from the Jolly Old Grecian
“Voice, Fiddle, and Flute,
no longer be mute,
I’ll lend you my Name and inspire you to boot,
And, besides, I’ll instruct you like me to entwine
The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus’s Vine.”

Try it out and see if you don’t like it better than the separatist Yankee perversion of it!

Again, I have no qualms with requiring the ability to speak English to be a U.S. citizen if for no reason other than pure practicality, but that still doesn’t explain why the anthem “should” be sung in English. James claims it’s a matter of respect and courtesy regardless of the intent or sincerity of the person singing it in Spanish (or some other language), but I don’t see how singing a song—patriotic or not—in another language is a form of disrespect if the intent behind the act is sincere. When Rosanne Barr belted out her cat-screeching rendition of the anthem on national TV at a baseball game THAT was disrespect.

DarO suggests the changing of some of the lyrics is a form of disrespect, but as Zilch points out the anthem is already a rip-off of an old English drinking song modified to turn it into a celebration of rebellion. He also correctly points out that they’re not claiming it as The Star Spangled Banner, but “Our Anthem” which seems entirely appropriate considering the changes that they made to it.

Perhaps it’s just a matter of me not being particularly good at knee-jerk patriotism, but I fail to see why everyone got so upset about this.

your erronous claims made me feel compelled to comment on your fallacy.  President Bush is fighting to grant illegal aliens work permits and temporary citizenship.  if you think he is such a “douchebag” then maybe you agree with the majority of citizens of our country in thinking that illegal immigrants should get deported.  obviously you make claims without having any knowledge to back them.  before getting into politics, you should know what your talking about, until then, go back and mow some fucking lawns

You’ve failed to show where I’m using a fallacious argument, John. You then go on to draw conclusions about my position on the issue that are in no way represented by my statements. Laughably you then chide me for making claims without having any knowledge to back them.

Take your own advice, John, you’d be better served by it than I would.

Few years back Radio 4 reported that California printed election material in over 200 languages, including Inuit.  Don’t ask for precise sourcing- it’s just one of thos facts that sticks in your head. If ability to speak English* is the problem, then the national anthem is the least of the issues.

* 2nd pointless fact- when Congress voted for the official language of government, English only beat German by one vote.  Has that changed history?

John:

if you think he is such a “douchebag� then maybe you agree with the majority of citizens of our country in thinking that illegal immigrants should get deported.

I don’t really have an axe to grind other than about 22% of the US population dictate what’s good for the planet, but I’ll leave that aside.
Ummm. The ‘majority’? Where did you pluck this from?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2004 reckons that only 62 million citizens voted for Bush. That’s about 22% of the population. Are you saying they ALL agree with Bush and illegals should not be deported? OR, are you saying that the other 78% of citizens agree they should be deported?
All generalisations are dangerous – even this one.
But I am interested on what you base your assumptions. B O’R, Fox?
By the way …

before getting into politics, you should know what your talking about, until then, go back and mow some fucking lawns

It’s YOU’re talking about. It’s more to do with the contraction of ‘you are’ than ownership.
Maybe you spent TOO much time mowing some sexually fornicating lawns and not enough time in English class.
I know – cheap shots – but we all take them when we can, don’t we?

John:...go back and mow some fucking lawns.

Take your own advice.

In fact, the little lawn outside my apartment needs trimming. Get on it, boy.

only 62 million citizens voted for Bush

We have to accept a majority can only be considered out of those voting.  Of your 78% many will be ineligible to vote due to local or national laws on age, mental capability or criminality.  If some one chooses not to vote then the winner can not be held accountable for that.  What is wrong is that even on the ‘official result’ of 2000, Gore garnered more votes than Bush.  It is the location of the votes that wins it for Bush. 

Part of the problem here is the central states, many of which are the so called ‘Red States’ have electoral college votes disproportionately high to the population.

As I understand it (and please be gentle with me, remember I’m English, so US voting is not top of my list) each state receives 1 vote per congressman, plus 1 per ‘x’ of population.  This means that a state with 2x pop gets 4 votes, while those with only ‘x’ gets 3.  Given there are more red states than blue, even though they have lower population, it would be interesting to look at the result if each state had it’s 2 ‘free’ votes taken off. 

Why do most Democrats live in the coastal states?  Because they are waiting for the rescue boats.

I wish I could remember who’se joke I have just mangled.

it would be interesting to look at the result if each state had it’s 2 ‘free’ votes taken off. 

To answer your question, Gore would’ve beat Bush in 2000, 224 to 213 electoral votes. I only had pretty pictures for 1940 to 2000, but the 2000 election was the only one that was close enough to have been changed by that.  It wouldn’t have affected any others in that time frame.  Going back to the other elections where the winner didn’t have the popular majority, it may have affected it, but I don’t have the data on hand.

Also in that sixty year period, in five elections, five electors voted for a candidate other than the one they were expected to.

Looks like my worthless-at-semester’s-end govt text came in handy.  Maybe I just might keep it around.

its about damn time a politician said what the public has been saying for years...you want to live here weork here and belong here SPEAK FUCKING ENGLISH!!!!

who gives a damn what they speak or whether they’re in the country, so long as they don’t get in my way or cause me any inconvenience