I knew somehow he’d bring weapons of mass destruction into the matter.

But wasn’t George Bush responsible for the delay? If that’s the case, why is he—of all people—overseeing the probe? Impeach the retard already.

Hey, consider it an internal review

Fault will be found - outside.

This doesn’t tell all the facts.

The Senate, also, is bringing together a bipartisan commission to investigate the disaster.  I seriously doubt we can have too many people analyze the who’s, how’s, and why’s of this situation.

Yeah, and when the Senate tries to request documents, those will mysteriously be unavailable, destroyed, missing, or redacted beyond utility for “national security reasons”. 

But wasn’t George Bush responsible for the delay?

No, he wasn’t. He actually called the governer of LA to implore that she press for the evacuation of N.O.

The delays came from state and local officials.

Ah, Warbi, the eternal, assumptive cynic.
You neglect to remember that some of The Most Powerful Republicans have been hyper-critical of FEMA’s and DHS’s response.  If you listen to the Republican Leadership (i doubt many of you do), you would realise this shift of power in recent months.  Concern over the 2006 election has much to do with this silent RNC coup.

Bush has little political capital to stonewall the Senate anymore.

I predict:
[] FEMA’s Brown shall resign very soon
[] Chertoff shall resign by the end of this president’s term
[] 9/11v2 shall make this disaster look like a dry-run

Daniel Medley: I’m sorry, are you putting this on the Governor! The man who was on vacation until Thursday morning (9/1), who accepted a guitar from some country star on Wednesday (8/31)? You think he wasn’t responsible for the delay?

Do you know that he declared New Orleans a disaster area on Monday or Tuesday. I can’t remember that one.

I’m not saying that the local government doesn’t have some questions to answer. One I have is why wasn’t the poor bused out of New Orleans when the “Mandatory” evacuation order come in. We have seen lots of pictures of hundreds of school buses sitting halfway underwater now. They could have been used to get the folks out of town instead of being destroyed in the parking lots that they are at now.

No, the President has a lot to answer for and if he “heads” the investigation, he will never be held accountable for his actions.

We need an “independent” investigation into the matter, like the 9/11 commission.

Dave M. I reeeally don’t think there’s going to be any independent investigation. Speaking as someone who believes the 9/11 comissions ended up more like a puppet show than anything, it would be a colossal waste of time and money. I firmly believe that any ruler should be held accountable for their actions, but I think we’re more than a little too late to the party to do anything about this administration.

Dave M.

Tell me how this is Bush’s fault. How would’ve you done had you been President?

Your kidding, right? The man was “vacationing” from Sunday, to Wednesday (8/28 - 8/31)!

This wasn’t a storm like we see here in St. Louis, this was a CAT 4 HURRICANE! Did he really think that the hurricane was going to do no damage at all! Did he really think that there would be no power outages, that water would keep running? If so, the man is more of an idiot than anyone ever estimated him to be!

He needed to get off his butt, get to the White House and start telling people what to do! Not sit on his ass at his ranch and watch. However, it was keeping true to form for him. Look at when he was told about the World Trade Center on 9/11. He sat there reading a stupid book with children while our country was being attacked!

Also, where the hell has Chaney been all this time! Not to mention Condi, oh that’s right, they were on vacation too. Gee, really hate to cut their vacations short. Sheesh!

As I said before, it’s not fully him. There are questions to be answered by the local government too, but ultimately, Bush is responsible for this country! IT’S HIS JOB!!! It’s what the MAJORITY of the American people HIRED him to do!

HE is the one who put FEMA under Homeland Securty! HE is the one who ultimately put Brown as director of FEMA! HE is the one who put Ridge and Chirtoff into their positions!

If your child breaks a window somewhere, are you saying that you are not ultimately responsible for your child?

Sheesh!

Daniel Medley:No, he wasn’t. He actually called the governer of LA to implore that she press for the evacuation of N.O.

The delays came from state and local officials.

The call “imploring” evacuation of N.O. came on 8/28 just before the Governor and Nagin held a press conference to announce the mandatory evacuation, casting doubt over [Brit] Hume and [Brian] Wilson’s suggestion [on Fox News] that Bush’s phone call triggered the decision to evacuate. Further on 8/26 the Governor executed the State Emergency Plan on 8/26 and on 8/27 requested that the President declare a [Federal] State of Emergency for Louisiana. Having said that, it’s clear, in retrospect, that the local plans (or their implementation) were not up to the task at hand. It is also equally clear, not in retrospect, that a lot of Federal help would be necessary very quickly. When the Feds declared, I believe on 8/27, they assumed responsibility.

Dave M. HE is the one who put FEMA under Homeland Security! HE is the one who ultimately put Brown as director of FEMA! HE is the one who put Ridge and Chirtoff into their positions!

Clinton’s FEMA director, James Lee Witt, had actual, not made up, experience in disaster management. He was big on pre-positioning stuff—something noticeably absent during Katrina. The Federal response was slow off the starting blocks, and that goes right to the top.

Dave M, you also forgot about cutting funding for the levee projects, ignoring warnings as recently as last year regarding this scenario, reversing policies of his father and Clinton regarding wetlands and barrier islands to open them up to developers which would have lessened the storm surge had they been left alone, having the National Guard and their amphibious equipment (in a desert, no less!) in a foreign country, and finally, his sloooooow reaction.  Hell, Venezuela and Canada were already offering aid to the US before Bush could be pried loose from his vacation.  Yes, there are others to blame, including previous administrations, and state and local governments, but Bush made a bad situation worse.  In addition, he is supposedly the commander-in-chief.  I know that when I was a manager, I was held responsible for failures made by my employees.  I was the one ultimately responsible for what my unit did or did not do.  You know damned well, that Bush would have been the first to claim credit if everything went as smoothly as possible.

Man, you guys don’t listen.

Dave M says:

He needed to get off his butt, get to the White House and start telling people what to do! Not sit on his ass at his ranch and watch.

It appears as though you’re not familiar with the Constitution and how the process is supposed to work. In a local disaster the chain of command flows up from the state and local level. The national guard is under the control of the state. The call for evacuation is supposed to come from the city officials. The Feds don’t get involved until state officials ask for it. It wasn’t Bush’s job to “tell people what to do”.

Bush is responsible for this country! IT’S HIS JOB!!!

Uh, no, it’s not his job to take care of people. The attitude you are displaying probably played the largest role in this tragedy. People waited around waiting for someone to take care of them instead of doing it themselves. The Mayor failed to act and waited for someone else to do his job and the governer acted like a deer caught in headlights.

vernR says:

The call “imploring�? evacuation of N.O. came on 8/28 just before the Governor and Nagin held a press conference to announce the mandatory evacuation, casting doubt over [Brit] Hume and [Brian] Wilson’s suggestion [on Fox News] that Bush’s phone call triggered the decision to evacuate.

That may be true but it’s not the point. It’s not the President’s job to manage state affairs. It’s the governer’s. The fact that the President felt he had to call meant that the governer was a day late and a dollar short.

warbi says:

Dave M, you also forgot about cutting funding for the levee projects . . .

I’ll repeat, again:

According to the Army Corps of Engineers the lack of funding had nothing to do with what happened and the section that broke was actually a section that had been refurbished.

Now some in the ACE are indicating that a large barge may have been pushed into one of the levees, breaking through it. If, after an investigation, this proves to be true I’m sure y’all will be claiming that Bush was driving the barge.

The slooooooow reaction came from state and local officials.

Bush made a bad situation worse.

The facts say otherwise. Bush pushed the locals to do their job.

You Bush bashers have yet to come up with one shred of factual evidence that Bush is guilty of some huge failure. The only thing he’s guilty of is, god forbid, trusting state and local officials to do their job.

I’m starting to believe that more fingers should point to state and local officials.  Yes, the ACOE budget was cut over and over again, but even with solid upkeep, the levees were only meant to be capable of withstanding a category 3.  The flooding and devistation is due to a natural disaster.  The death and carnage is due to the fact that New Orleans, a city just waiting to be flooded, did not have a disaster preparedness or evacuation plan.

The “plan” to evacuate to the superdome did not include such silly things as food, water, and transportation.

Yes, the feds stepped-in too late, and GWB’s perma-smirk needs to be smacked off his stupid mouth, but I believe that the local N.O. government should have been prepared to act FIRST.

Here’s some interesting facts regarding the ACOE funding.

After looking at your website Mr Medley, I understand your position completely. So I’m not going to waste my time and anger on you. I’m actually surprised you are not quoting some of the religions sites that are claiming that New Orleans had it coming to them.

Moving on…

Here are two detailed time lines. One at Wikipedia and the other at dKosopedia.

The one at Wikipedia (currently) begins on 8/23/05 with the National Hurricane Service announcing the the formation of Tropical Depression 12 over the Bahamas. We see that the Governor of Louisiana slooooooowly declared a state of emergency after the storm hit Florida a Category 1 hurricane and before it was upgraded to Category 3.

It appears as though you’re not familiar with the Constitution and how the process is supposed to work. In a local disaster the chain of command flows up from the state and local level. The national guard is under the control of the state. The call for evacuation is supposed to come from the city officials. The Feds don’t get involved until state officials ask for it. It wasn’t Bush’s job to “tell people what to do�?.

Well thank you for the civics lesson, but according to the second time line, here is what someone at the Department of Homeland Security said on 3/01/2002.

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America’s families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.

The rest of the time line is, IMHO, a litany of FEMA incompetence.

Apparently we listen better than you read.

According to the Army Corps of Engineers the lack of funding had nothing to do with what happened and the section that broke was actually a section that had been refurbished.

  First of all, it was more than one section of levee that broke.  Secondly, it was the opinion of some engineers and not all:

Several critics, including a former head of the Corps of Engineers (emphasis mine), suggested in a Tribune story Thursday that the flooding in New Orleans could have been less severe had the federal government fully funded projects to improve the levees and drainage in the city.

  Here is February article on the funding issue.  Here is a Project Fact Sheet from March by the

Army Corps of Engineers.  This coupled with the destruction of the wetlands and barrier islands made the flooding more severe.

The facts say otherwise. Bush pushed the locals to do their job.

 
  What facts are those?  Bush was too busy enjoying his vacation, dodging Sheehan, and playing guitar to pay attention to requests from the local governments for help.  As for Bush “waiting” for local government action- States’ Rights are okay when the States do what he wants.  Ask California medicinal marijuana clinics about Bush’s feelings on States’ Rights and local government purview.

“My party is demonstrating that they are for states’ rights unless they don’t like what states are doing.“

- CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Republican congressman of Connecticut, on the Schiavo case.

Dave M states:

Bush is responsible for this country! IT’S HIS JOB!!!

And Daniel Medley responds:

Uh, no, it’s not his job to take care of people.

Ok…so all those people who voted for Bush because they thought Bush would take care of them (in terms of terrorism) were what?  Deluded?  Lied to?  Both?

Putting aside the blame game for a moment, if the President is not supposed to take care of people (as well as other duties), then what is his job?  Just take care of corporations?  Oil supplies?  Himself?

Running a country implies some level of taking care of its citizens.

You may want to rethink that statement…unless you are telling us the true meaning of “compassionate conservative”.

In terms of this hurricane, I’ve said before but this guy says it best:

I am fully aware of the challenges of having a quick and responsive emergency response to a major disaster. And there is definitely a time for accountability; but what isn’t fair is to dump on the federal officials and avoid those most responsible—local and state officials who failed to do their job as the first responders. The plain fact is, lives were needlessly lost in New Orleans due to the failure of Louisiana’s governor, Kathleen Blanco, and the city’s mayor, Ray Nagin.

The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center.

These are the facts, period. You may want it to be otherwise but this is how our government is supposed to work.

So, no, I have no need to rethink my statement.

These are the facts, period.

That’s funny.  The facts?  That’s an editorial page you got, there.  Nevermind what the DoHS officials themselves say.

The death and carnage is due to the fact that New Orleans, a city just waiting to be flooded, did not have a disaster preparedness or evacuation plan.

It’s worse than you say: New Orleans did have a disaster preparedness and evacuation plan. The problem is nobody in local government seems to have been aware of its contents, or, if they were (as I believe they were), in the run-up to the hurricane they dropped the ball.

Thank goodness we have Bush to kick around.

I think Foamy the squirrel sums it up best.

First, I would encourage everyone that has not already done so to donate money to the disaster relief efforts through a charity of your choosing.

Second, I believe that there is enough fault to go around for everybody. 

1) Brock mentioned this an another thread, but it bears repeating.  Americans by their nature think that we can conquer anything including Mother Nature. By and large we do it with much success, shrugging off hurricanes regularly. This led to a false sense of security which resulted in fewer people evacuating.

It is certainly true that many that stayed were ill or incapable for whatever reason of evacuating.  This was not everybody, nor would I hazard to guess even a majority.  It is equally true that many stayed because they wanted to.  These folks did not take adequate measures to provide for themselves.  The most basic preparations begin with stock food and water supplies.  Even I can figure out how to fill up milk cartoons and pop bottles with water from the tap before the storm hits.

Obviously the sheer number of those that stayed, and their failure to prepare in a meaningful way complicated the logistics of the rescue efforts. Some of the blame for this is properly placed on the residents themselves.

2) I initially thought that some blame lay with the National Hurrican Center. I wasn’t paying any attention to the storm until Sat. evening.  Upon review, the Hurrican Center was on the phone to the mayor and governor telling them that a disaster was coming their way long before they started speaking publicly. 

3) The levee system should have been designed differently or we should not have let people live in NO.  Even I knew before the storm that NO could not successfully sustain a CAT 5 hurricane.  Given that, those of us that were intelligent enough to figure out that NO was a soup bowl waiting to be filled owed it to those that couldn’t or didn’t put it together. Those folks that didn’t understand the danger beforehand deserved better from us, and we failed them.

Having said that, the funding issue some people are trumpeting about is a red herring.  To my knowledge there is no levy system in place anywhere in the world that could sustain a direct CAT 5 hit, which is what needed to be in place.  To my knowledge there were no plans to build such a system. 

The most that can be said is that with additional funding the flooding MAY not have been so bad. Does anybody really think that 9 ft of water is somehow more acceptable than 12 ft?  Let it go. Those of you trumpeting this are trying score cheap political points from the suffering of U.S. citizens. 

4) Poor leadership by the mayor of NO. This guy is an absolute moron. I have nothing but contempt in my heart for him. If he was a leader he would have been leading the charge to get food and water rather than goading others for his fauilures.

It appears that LA had an evacuation plan for New Orleans.  It also appears that somebody even created crib notes for the eternally stupid, and wrote use the school buses.  Despite this, there was a Yahoo photo that shows I don’t know how many school buses under water.  All the mayor had to do was keep the buses dry and you have a ready means to evacuate people right there. 

When the buses and other city assets were not preserved, this created a logistical problem.  NO is LA’s largest city.  It lacked other assets.  This meant that the feds had to first find buses, then get the buses to NO before they could start evacuating.

4) LA’s governor lacked leadership.  She did not request mobilization of National Guard troops in a timely manner.  No matter what folks think Homeland Security does, the responsibility for mobilizing the Guard rests with the Governor. 

5) President Bush and his staff are culpable as well.  They had to know.  There is no way that they could not know that the local and regional leadership was failing the citizens, yet it does not appear that they did anything. 

Whether the administration is democrat or republican, we pay a lot of smart people to think about all kinds of shit that could go wrong.  It was projected that Katrina would hit as a CAT 5 (came ashore as a 4) and yet local authorities did hardly anything.  The people we pay to think about this stuff should have been sounding alarm bells to admin. officials to kick local officials in the ass and to initiate more prepositioning of rescue resources.

6) Corrupt police force.  For those of you have been reading the blog The Interdictor, there is no doubt that the police participated in the looting.  When the officers of the law are leading the charge to pillage the community any hope of maintaining the social fabric in a community is gone.

I don’t believe that this was foreseeable.  Nobody expected “The Man” to walk off the job and grab some for himself before he did so.  However, because of this evacuation efforts were complicated dramatically.  There were shots being fired at rescue workers evacuating hospitals.

Now, instead of being able to rush aid into the afflicted area, the area has to be secured. It creates a rescue effort that is much more difficult to pull off in any type of timely fasion.

8) The victims of the hurricane also bear some responsibility for the breakdown in the social fabric within the city. The number of law abiding citizens there vastly outnumbered the thugs. Yet, I’m not aware of anybody stepping up to the plate and taking on a leadership role to organize the refugees themselves while they were waiting. A great deterrent to the trouble makers at the convention center would have been to administer a bit of street justice. The failure to organize themselves resulted in a lack of any cohesion and they were prey for the wolves.

9)  Mother Nature was a real bitch when she delivered this punch.  The disaster was not just in NO.  It was widespread along the Gulf coast with signfificant damage as far inland as Jackson, Miss.  The disaster area was in effect larger than the state of KS.  The logistics of coordinating aid for the entire area is staggering. 

10)  The Media fell down on its job.  Everbody has 20/20 vision in hindsight.  However, it appears that everybody in the media and blogosphere went just as dumb as the government officials before the storm.  There was no outcry from anybody that I know of on radio, on tv, or on the internet, screaming that NO was going to flood and kill tens of thousands of people.  If I recall there was that pre-strom excitement about getting reporters stationed to televise the fury of Mother Nature firsthand.

The flip side to this is that if it was so predictable that NO would end up the way it was, why wasn’t someone, anyone, screaming from the top of their lungs about this?  Because nobody did.  I think that reading a report about what could happen, and actually envisioing it happening are too different things.

11) In taking stock of all that went wrong, and there was a lot, we must not forget that there were and are truly heroic men and women that risked their lives to save complete strangers.  First among these are the NO police officers that stayed on the job, the NO fire department, and the Coast Guard. 

Those are my thoughts on the manner.

That was certainly worth the effort, Consi.

Daniel said (way back there) The national guard is under the control of the state. The call for evacuation is supposed to come from the city officials. The Feds don’t get involved until state officials ask for it. It wasn’t Bush’s job to “tell people what to do�?.

I wonder why they call it the NATIONAL Guard? They should have called them the State Guard or the City Guard, Parish Guard, Rich City’s Guard or anything but National Guard. Maybe you suspect the confusion this can bring, Daniel?

Bush should have just sent the military the moment he declared the area in a state of emergency. Those soldiers, they’ll go anywhere you tell them to.

PS: I’m gonna quit saying allot for a lot. But when I make it the one word alot, the dictionary yells at me.

English is hard, people!

Even more incredible intelligence from FEMA:

From MSNBC:
It turns out, according to the worker, who like the other aid workers spoke on condition of anonymity, that the call to the FEMA number does not open a claim; it results in a package containing the claim form being mailed to the address of the evacuee.

Since the evacuee is in a shelter, mail service has been suspended in many of the hardest hit areas and some of the homes are likely still under water, it seems clear that those claim forms won’t be mailed back any time soon.

Stories like this seem to be popping up all over the net.