I’m not a betting man, but I’ll always take a bet I’m almost sure to win.

Given that McCain’s nose is so far up Bush’s ass right now because he wouldn’t otherwise be able to dream of the Presidency, I’ll say he’s (for once) going to keep his mouth shut.

He’ll weasel.  Someone suggested to me that it might not be a wonderful idea to have a president who was tortured by the Commies for five years.  He might not really be quite right in the head.

As for what Bush’s excuse might be, I have no idea.

Does “Inquisition” come to mind? They had a wonderful torture museum at San Diego a few years ago. Fascinating what we can do to our fellow human beings in the name of “religion” - or are those really human beings doing that? Just saw “The Legend of Sleepy Hollow” on the tube, with Johnny Depp. Fabulous scars! Especially the memory ones.

No matter who wins we are fucked. It all comes down to what you want to be fucked with, McCain (a horse cock), Clinton (a ten inch man), Obama (a four inch dildo). I hate politicians, their all whores that don’t tell you their price until after you have done the deed.

The only reason I rate obama so high (low) is he has no chance of pushing through his ideas (to extreme).

There is something to be said about McCain advocating torture because he was tortured.  Just like an abused child that grows up and abuses their own children.  Given, some abused children don’t abuse their own children, but the cycle of abuse is well documented, and I cannot see why it wouldn’t also apply to a victim of torture.  In any event, he hasn’t come out and publicly spoken against the Bush administrations stance on torture.

Sad to see it go that way. The general public doesn’t want another Bush in office, and there’s been more than a few attempts in the last year for both parties to distance themselves from Bush and let the chips fall where they may.

In that light I would have loved to believe McCain would take the stance against torture. I know he won’t. What’s being tossed around as torture, waterboarding and all, that shit is nothing. Come back with real scars. Which is precisely the point - they’re taking non-torture and panning it as torture. Anyone who tries to take a stance screws themselves.

In the meantime, I’ve had to convince a friend that a) Fox news is still propaganda (which she doesn’t believe because they published one piece comparing Bush to Hitler, she claims) and b) that Obama is not a Muslim. She feels she has to vote for McCain because she doesn’t like Hillary and she’s scared Obama is going to commit treason.

At the very least, I’m trying to convince her to take five and use Google.

All around the table, reason has failed to make the appearance I’d hoped for in this election. That leaves me more disappointed than I once was, and far less hopeful for the state of things.

What’s being tossed around as torture, waterboarding and all, that shit is nothing. Come back with real scars.

Sure - it’s just a little water up the nose.  But Darius Rejali, a genuine expert on torture, identifies waterboarding as part of a trend in which governments are moving toward “clean” torture precisely because the scars it leaves are not visible to the eye, allowing even more widespread practice.  He says that the long-term effects are just as bad as torture that is done with pliers and torches.

Pfft. He already weaseled. He voted against it.

He says that the long-term effects are just as bad as torture that is done with pliers and torches.

Indeed, but does he have something other than anecdotal evidence? The problem with psychological scars is that, for the most part, they are as dependent on the person being scarred as the methods used to inflict the scars.

I am easily emotionally scarred. I am also prone to overcoming adversity in leaps and bounds. I tend to heal fast and recover fully. The same cannot be said of anyone regarding physical torture. I cut off your tongue, it won’t grow back.

Indeed, but does he have something other than anecdotal evidence?

Read some of his articles.  Read his biography.  Read this one. He knows what the hell he’s talking about.

The nasty thing about “clean” torture techniques—and especially the six reportedly approved CIA techniques: the attention grab, the attention slap, the belly slap, the cold room, forced standing, and waterboarding—is that no one can tell how much pain the subject is in as the torture is done. And after the fact, victims have nothing to show to their communities or even to their families—who want to believe them.

Clean tortures are unlike other tortures because they are calculated to prevent any kind of public expression of outrage or sympathy. They are also exceedingly hard to monitor and track, so their corrupting influence is pernicious.

Patness: The problem with your friend is that she sees politics as a religion (which it is) and you fail to see it that way. Does that view make any more sense to the way most people vote? Can you see why Jesus George Bush still has a following after all his fuck-ups?

The problem with your friend is that she sees politics as a religion (which it is) and you fail to see it that way.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand that the current state of US politics is largely derived from cult political movements (popular movements in general, which established religions will inevitably play some part). It is also a practice of division. But the direct subclassing of politics as a form of religion, I don’t see. Got a few pointers?

Where it concerns allegations that Barack Obama is a radical Muslim, as far as I can tell, this was a story first ‘reported’ by Fox News. If your vote is important enough to be a sensitive moral issue for you, personally, then doesn’t it deserve at least a five-minute Google?

There are inordinate numbers of people who, apparently, don’t think so. I don’t think that’s a religious issue. Religion or otherwise, that’s bad. To me, it’s also morally convoluted. It could be consistent, but it would have to put the value of truth very low.

Consider: If you tell a big enough lie often enough, people will believe it. (Mein Kampf, Adolph Hitler) Review the teachings of any organized religion with this thought in mind and you can readily see the connection. All organized religions become political organizations, complete with hierarchal lines of authority. The authorities learn to manipulate the masses and, over time, to manipulate them better and better . . . Check out this link and compare with GWB or the Pope or any other authority figure: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.asp

Thanks for the Snopes reference on that quote - I had a general idea of what the quote was and that it was attributable to a Nazi, but I remembered so little of it that I had trouble finding it.

It raises a troubling systemic question, though. Morally good people, by most stripes, tend to be produced by an acknowledgement of one’s connection to one’s community. We tend to teach this using emotive reference and authority, because it is effective. Yet, it is this same method, used against a collective identity, that allows entire masses of people to be subverted in a single fell swoop. This religion and nationalism share in common.

I’ll be thinking a little more on this. Thanks, Leguru.

Religion and politics are both organized movements of ideology for the purpose of governing members and influencing non-members.

Okay, up (or lower) the bar a little: Will Obama OR Hillary call McCain on his torture stance.

And the corollary question: does anyone care, you know, what with the Iraq War all but won?

Solonor, actually, according to this, McCain HAS spoken out clearly aganst waterboarding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#As_a_political_issue_in_2008_presidential_election

A little light here, it seems. Still, I don’t think he will do much about it. No gain to be had from that, so the best course in his opinion will be to keep mum, and if elected, ban it then.

There was a time when I like McCain. But really since his gimmick about walking the free streets of Iraq was just silly, and I felt embarresed for him. That was the point that just put the nail in the coffin for my opinion of him. So, I am willing to bet he will just weazel his way out of the issue now.