In other words, just because you’re Jewish, does not mean you believe that what Israel is doing in the West Bank and Gaza is right…No sane person would say all Muslims are terrorists, so why bracket all Jews in the same way?

You’re absolutely right. This is partly why I find the far-Right claims that Jews should really be voting Republican to be so slimy.

I initially wrote several paragraphs on this subject, then realised I was only repeating myself, when I could sum up my feelings on the subject in one line.

World war two was over 50 years ago, get over it now please and move on, Jews are not the victims anymore!

I dislike Caterpillar myself, but for more serious reasons (so they are using caterpillar bulldozers for bulldozing Palestinian houses - so what, not Caterpillars fault).

But Caterpillar is known to kick anyone out who is suspected of union activity. Like fucking Walmart. While I don’t think unions are the magic bullet to working poor, such behaviour is really below despicable. And it should be illegal. That is one of the lines where I stop being a libertarian, I guess.

I think the argument is more that they are encouraging a boycott BECAUSE they don’t like Jews, and therefore they are not sympathetic to the Israeli issues, not the other way around.

Serai, will you be booking your next vacation in Tel Aviv, then?  Or will you wait until its current inhabitants are “driven into the sea,“ as is the stated goal of the current democratically elected Palestinian government (not to mention Iran and many of its other neighbors)?

I don’t see how me booking a holiday in Tel Aviv would help me to find a sudden rush of sympathy for people who play the persecution card every time someone disagrees with something they say or do.

As for Israel being driven into the sea etc, well if you build a nation and surround yourself with enemies, what else can you expect? It’s not like Israel has gone out of it’s way to get along and be a good neighbour.

I daresay I will be labelled ‘anti semitic’ for my views, but I don’t have any issue with peoples racial background unless they use it as an excuse for special treatment.

I am a pagan and a celt, do you think I go off crying about the witch burnings whenever someone gives me a hard time? Or perhaps I could drum up some sympathy by quietly whimpering about the way the English treated the Scots during William Wallace’s day?

If I thought for an instant that Jewish people really were being persecuted I’d stand up for them like I would stand up for anyone else. But the incessant use of the ‘anti semitic’ card when people express a view that they don’t like has worn out it’s welcome with me.

As I said before the holocaust was over 50 years ago, yes it was a terrible thing and should never ever happen again. However it does not mean we cannot disagree with, or oppose what we feel are wrongful actions of Jewish people or more specifically the nation of Israel.

I daresay I will be labelled ‘anti semitic’ for my views, but I don’t have any issue with peoples racial background unless they use it as an excuse for special treatment.

For the record, I do label you as anti-semitic.

The question is, do you understand why you well deserve that label?

I daresay I will be labelled ‘anti semitic’ for my views, but I don’t have any issue with peoples racial background unless they use it as an excuse for special treatment.

On this point, I couldn’t agree with you more.

It’s not like Israel has gone out of it’s way to get along and be a good neighbour.

I’m not sure how to respond to this, mainly because I’m just so stunned.  Serai, how do you propose that a good neighbor respond when your neighbor does something that is just a bit annoying, like oh say, bombs the cafes that your children frequent?

I don’t know, but I’d began to think that good fences make for good neighbors.  Just a dumb ol’ country bumbkin though.

Course, if prior to the bombing of my cafes I was just scooby-doing on down the road goin’ bout’ my business, and then all my neighbors got together behind my back, and without so much as a howdy neighbor, came storming into my yard trying to kill me, I might have a wee bit of problem with that.  I suspect you would too, lass.  In fact, my displeasure over such unneighborly behavior might lead me to believe that it would be helpful for my survival if there was a bit of a buffer zone between myself and my neighbors.  So, after I kicked their ass for being unneighborly, I might just keep a bit of their property, not cuz I really wanted it, but just because I might be, oh a bit paranoid they might still want to kill me.

That’s just crazy ol’ me though.

The question is, do you understand why you well deserve that label?

Nope no idea, as I said before I have nothing against jewish people at all, I treat anyone no matter what creed or race they are equally. I do however object to people of any race creed or religion who play the victim, and cry anti semitic anti christian anti whatever at anyone who disagrees with them.

I don’t believe anyone deserves special treatment just because of their racial or religious background.

World war two was over 50 years ago, get over it now please and move on, Jews are not the victims anymore!

I personally don’t have enough knowledge concerning the Israel/Palestine conflicts, and therefore I have refrained from forming a strong opinion on the issue.

It is true that, in America at least, Jewish people are enjoying a lot more freedom, more wealth, and less overt discrimination than was the case in the past. They certainly seem to have it better than a lot of African-Americans.

However, there is speculation concerning the idea that anti-Semitism may be on the rise in Europe. This is a contested issue (like most such issues) and there is a page of   BBC interviews with people with diverse views on the topic that you may be interested in checking out. Many of those who give their opinions are Jewish or of Jewish descent.

As far as “moving on” goes, I would think that moving on would sometimes be difficult as far as the systematic murder of six million people goes. Especially since the Holocaust only occurred sixty years ago.

Nope no idea, as I said before I have nothing against jewish people at all, I treat anyone no matter what creed or race they are equally.

Really? On the one hand, you indiscriminately condemn all Jewish people, on the other hand you state that you have nothing against Jewish people at all. How to reconcile these contradictory statements?

Your claim that Jews aren’t persecuted today is stunning in its ignorance. Why does El Al have the most extreme security of all airlines? Why have there been metal detectors at D.C.‘s Holocaust Museum since the day it opened? And of course all the white surpremacist groups in the U.S. and elsewhere are completely incapable of more than hot words?

You cannot even reasonably complain about the way Israel purports itself in the conflict with the Palestinians and neighboring nations unless you understand the history and cultures. You may start by answering why Palestinians are an issue in the first place. It’s cheap talk to lean back in an armchair and criticize others, so what about some workable ideas of how to defuse the Middle East? Billions of people would be in your debt if you can pull it off.

The simple fact is that Jews have been victims ever since Christianity needed to whitewash the host nation of that religions infancy, the Roman Empire. There have been times and places when they could live largely unimpeded, but there are plenty of other examples, too. Seen the Fiddler on the Roof, say?

There are African Americans that “play the race card.“ Out of curiosity, do you apply the same yardstick to them and tell all African Americans that slavery was abolished quite some time ago and cut out whatever complaints they have?

you indiscriminately condemn all Jewish people

No I don’t, what I actually said was,

I don’t see how me booking a holiday in Tel Aviv would help me to find a sudden rush of sympathy for people who play the persecution card every time someone disagrees with something they say or do.

Notice how I qualify my remarks, ie people who play the persecution card, that’s my objection right there. It’s all the cries of ‘anti semitism!‘ anytime someone says or does something that is against the interests of these ones. I have every sympathy for people who have lost family and friends on both sides of the conflict, I sit and cry when I watch the news and see more killings.

I suppose the media in the US shows more of a bias towards Israel with its’ reporting, whereas here in the UK we see more footage of Israeli soldiers shooting our journalists and aid workers than we do of Israelies killed by suicide or car bombs. I personally think both sides are to blame in this conflict, they are both guilty of restarting hostilites, and both guilty of atrocities against innocents.

If my remarks somehow came across as anti semitic or anything else, then I apologise as that truly isn’t my stance or my intent. I am sickened by the killing on both sides, and very saddened to see children and innocents suffer because of idiotic racial conflicts that really serve no purpose to man or beast.

I have to say I was surprised by my own strong feelings on this issue, and after some thought realised it was down to a story I read not very long ago that upset me a great deal. I admit that perhaps this coloured my response here, and I realise I perhaps should sit and think a bit more before I post comments, but sometimes, well sometimes emotions get in the way, what else can I say?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1332219,00.html

Notice how I qualify my remarks,

Like in your first post in this thread:

Jews are not the victims anymore!

Or this one:

If I thought for an instant that Jewish people really were being persecuted

Or this border-line one:

However it does not mean we cannot disagree with, or oppose what we feel are wrongful actions of Jewish people or more specifically the nation of Israel.

It is difficult not to read an anti-semitic bias into your posts, particularly since you’re leading with your chin…

SERAI, you are not anti-semitic. You have not attacked jews or their culture.

If someone says “ I fucking Hate them “ well that’s an other story. As far as most people are concerned we do have the right to criticise other people’s actions.
We have a responsability to denounce even your friends when they go overboard.

I am a friend of the jewish community here where I live and I very often disagree with political and social moves they make here in canada and also in Israel.

Sorry to disagree with anybody here but you’re going to find that many times a lot them play the victim’s card…either because of lack of knowledge or just because they feel they will insult some of their family members if they voice their opinions.

I will expand if I get insulted.

Well oddly enough I stand by my remarks Elwed, and I still say they are not anti semitic they are my opinions that I have formed from the information available to me. To be anti semitic I would have to be anti Jew on principle and I am not at all.

For instance Jews are no longer the victims, I stand by that remark, I don’t see any gas chambers or concentration camps any longer do you? Also I don’t know how things are around the world, but seeing as the story was about the UK Jewish community and the church of England I based my posts on the situation here.

I can tell you of all the racial abuse I have ever encountered or read about in the news here, I cannot recall more than a handfull of them being against Jews. There is hardly an epidemic of persecution here in the UK, if anything the Jewish community are doing very well for themselves thank you very much.

I also stand by my right and anyones right to be critical of the state of Israel and it’s policies as much as we are of any other nation that shoots journalists and children. So no sorry Elwed I am not going to agree with your call on this, I do not hate Jewish people, or any other race of people, but I do reserve my right to criticise them and disagree with them.

I can tell you of all the racial abuse I have ever encountered or read about in the news here, I cannot recall more than a handfull of them being against Jews. There is hardly an epidemic of persecution here in the UK, if anything the Jewish community are doing very well for themselves thank you very much.

I would encourage you to expand your reading.  Although racist violence appears on the downward trend in the UK, violence against Jews appears to be on the upswing.  See British crime stats here http://www.axt.org.uk/

Want to know how long it took for a foreigner with cable internet to find something that substantively counters what you are saying?  Less than 2 minutes. 

I’m not saying your anti-semetic.  I am saying your opinion is just wrong. You need more information before posting that only a handful of incidents have ever happened in the UK.  You also need more information to inform your opinion regarding the victimization of Jews.  Not all Jews are victims of persecution, but the statment that Jews (all Jews is what you are saying) are not victims (presumably of persecution) is again just flat wrong.

Umm the most recent reports they have on the UK are from 1998? Hardly current I’d say, I will see if I can find some unbiased and current crime statistics that show crimes with an anti semitic motive, as it’s no good just saying crimes against Jews in general have gone up, as that just means crime has gone up in general and it’s reflected throughout all areas of society.

If you are going to call me wrong or Ignorant at least do so with some current and unbiased source please Consi.

Again you are misreading what I say, perhaps it’s the tomato potato thing, but my point here is that Jewish people in general are not victims. You almost never hear about hate crimes against Jews on TV here, most recent one I can recall was 5 or 6 years ago when a Jewish cemetery got vandalised.

I grew up in East London in the 80’s during the skinhead revival, and yes in those days you’d see swastika’s painted on walls, and gangs of aggressive young men with shaved heads giving nazi salutes, though I believe they spent more time fighting with Asians and Afro gangs than they did Jews.

Seriously when I say I don’t see Jews as victims, I mean it in the sense of them as people in general, by the same token I don’t think women are victims either, even though we are also subjected to attacks because of our gender, even if it’s for a whole other reason.

There are some ethnic groups in the UK who I would consider to be persecuted, but even then I think they would be insulted if I called them victims as a whole. I think we are verging on semantics here, but I think some of you are looking for a bias in my posts that just isn’t there.

I am not anti semitic end of story, there is no fox to chase here so stop baying, honestly people really, you are being quite anti ( pagan, celt, feminist ) in your criticisms of me now.

Well oddly enough I stand by my remarks Elwed, and I still say they are not anti semitic…

It’s your prerogative to think what you will and to express yourself as you do. How your words are received, however, is not for you to decide.

Oh, and what Consi said. I am happy to disagree with him on one point, though. Even if born out of (willful?) ignorance, in the context of this thread a opening statement like “World war two was over 50 years ago, get over it now please and move on, Jews are not the victims anymore!“ meets the dictionary definition of anti-semitism, because it implies a prejudicial generalization.

It’s not that I’m particularly happy about the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. However, there is a fundamental difference - Israel wants security, the Palestinians by and large want the nation of Israel wiped off the face of the Earth.

Now, I may be a politically left-leaning, morally permissive guy, but I’m not a lovey-dovey pacifist by any stretch of imagination. The Palestinians have been on my shit list since 1972 and will remain there until such time as they irrevocably commit in word and deed to a peaceful coexistence with Israel and forcefully distance themselves from those that don’t. When you think about it, Israelis and Palestinians have a lot to commiserate about; after all, even the Palestinian’s Arab brethren couldn’t care less about them other than a propaganda tool. It’s not like they started and badly lost a war with Israel and then welcomed the Palestinian refugees with open arms, eh.

If you want to criticize the actions of the Israeli government, that’s your call. However, I’m still waiting for your remedial suggestions.

I am not anti semitic end of story, there is no fox to chase here so stop baying, honestly people really, you are being quite anti ( pagan, celt, feminist ) in your criticisms of me now.

And another hasty generalization. I am anti-Serai at most. Where did anti-paganism, anti-celtism, or anti-feminism enter the picture unless we were right on target with our criticism all along?

“World war two was over 50 years ago, get over it now please and move on, Jews are not the victims anymore!“ meets the dictionary definition of anti-semitism, because it implies a prejudicial generalization.

No it doesn’t, I wasn’t going to bring this up but seeing as you keep on trying to paint me as anti semitic, my grandfather came to the UK during ww2 to escape persecution in Poland, because his parents were Jewish. No I don’t consider myself Jewish nor does my grandfather, but his parents certainly did.

I am not anti semitic when I say that I disagree with Israeli soldiers shooting children, I am not anti semitic when I say I am sick and tired of hearing about the holocaust every time someone makes a valid criticism of Israel. Yes we know it happened and we hope it never happens again, but it does not excuse the aggressive acts committed against innocents by Israelis. Both sides see I am saying it again, both sides in the conflict have behaved absolutely diabolically, both sides have killed innocents and continue to do so.

Remedial suggestions for the middle east conflict were not the topic as far as I was aware, and nor did I presume to have any solution. Not having a solution to a problem does not disqualify one from criticising the killing of children by soldiers, or suicide bombers for that matter, I equally condemn the actions of both sides in this conflict.

Oh and just a side note, if historical suffering means you can claim special treatment, then I think the Arabs have a good case against the Jews. After all wasn’t it the original nation of Israel that invented ethnic cleansing? That is if the biblical account has any basis in truth.

Serai, I have generally been very impressed with your comments in the past and, as an individual with Wiccan/Pagan leanings, I have something in common with you. I do not know enough about you to call you anti-Semitic, and I agree with Serge that there is not enough conclusive evidence from your posts to label you as such.

However, I feel that your World War II comment was out of line, especially considering that there was nothing in either Neil T’s entry or in the original article that even touched upon World War II or the Holocaust. That was something that you pulled out of thin air; it is relevant to Jewish affairs, of course, but it still was something that you alone brought up in this thread. I would not label your comment as anti-Semetic so much as merely insensitive and uncalled-for.

And another hasty generalization. I am anti-Serai at most. Where did anti-paganism, anti-celtism, or anti-feminism enter the picture unless we were right on target with our criticism all along?

Sorry forgot to add the wink, I wasn’t seriously playing the victim card, I forget you upstart colonials have a different sense of humour to us Brits.

Sadie if you read back, well ok I’ll quote myself but I did say on a previous post that I was a bit surprised how strongly I felt about things, my remarks may have been uncalled for agreed, I don’t dispute that.

I have to say I was surprised by my own strong feelings on this issue, and after some thought realised it was down to a story I read not very long ago that upset me a great deal. I admit that perhaps this coloured my response here, and I realise I perhaps should sit and think a bit more before I post comments, but sometimes, well sometimes emotions get in the way, what else can I say?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1332219,00.html

When I read about that bastard shooting that little girl I was incensed, and deeply upset to think that people can be so callous and sick as to do that to a child. I wanted to get a hold of that soldier and tear bits from him with my bare hands, I am very very sick and tired of hearing all this bullshit from people about why they need to go kill other people all the time. I get angry and upset too sometimes, and people who kill or hurt children I reserve a special kind of venom for, I think some of it spilled over and I admitted that in my post above.

I am not taking sides in the Israeli Palestinian conflict, had the article been about Palestinian outrage over the church of england pulling funding from say the company that makes their rocket launchers I’d have given a similar response. I am just very bloody fed up with hearing people justify killing other people, that’s really the crux of it with me right now. I apologise again if I have given offense, I actually telephoned my grandfather and asked him what he thought, and he said it was probably an ill advised comment but he could see my point.

I accept what you’re saying, Serai. I just wanted to provide my $0.02 as well.

I forget you upstart colonials have a different sense of humour to us Brits.

That remark just exposes the depth of your ignorance. If you don’t know why, I’ll leave you guessing.

It exposes your lack of perception too, if you don’t know why I’ll leave you guessing too hehe. You just seem determined to be pissed off at me so go ahead, be pissed off, I am done being concerned with your angst.