I love it when people try to come up with novel schemes to disrupt the ACLU.  As an athiest, there are few groups who will look out for the rights of individuals.

Funny folks you people are. All this attention only serves our purpose in spreading the word.

It’s also funny that you’ve totally misrepresented the purpose of the entire 10 Commandments campaign. The purpose is simply to respond to the anti-1st amendment crowd by multiplying the 10 commandments you folks hate so much. It seems to be working quite nicely.

Many of you appear to have trouble with the 1st amendment. Roy Moore is a citizen, his status as a (former) judge, in no way prevents him from the protection of the 1st amendment. If that weren’t true, George Bush would have been jailed a long time ago for his professing of his faith as the President. Where is the ACLU on this one? Shamefully silent, that’s where. Where’s the lawsuit? Are you going to try and convince the world that Roy Moore can’t display a ‘decoration’ (printed text) in the courthouse that he was given exclusive management of, but that it’s OK for ole George to exclaim his religion to the entire country and the world? I’m surprised you folks aren’t convulsing every time he says “God Bless America”. Or, are you? But of course, this is somehow different. He’s talking. It’s pure speech, is that it? Is that the explanation? The Supreme court has held numerous times that printed or written speech is deserving of the same protections as verbal speech no matter who the person is.

And where does the Atheist community get their twisted interpretation of the 1st amendment? It has obviously been completely ignored that Congress had zero influence on the Roy Moore decision to place a Decalogue monument in the AL courthouse rhotunda. And, there certainly were no laws created on the subject. Moore was simply exercising his freedom of speech and certain of your little groupies didn’t like it so they sued.

As for con artists, liars and the like: The majority of Americans (who are also God fearing) would conclude the opposite of your rants about me. In fact, it seems that those in your camp (atheists and ACLU), who completely ignore the clear writing of the 1st amendment, are the real con artists. You so hate the words of God, and you are so obviously pained to see the 1st commandment “I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me” that you would prefer to simply do away with freedom of speech so that you don’t have to hear or see that which your master hates.

You are all slaves to your own nearsighted, close minded, hate mongering bigotry that you can’t even think clearly. You have such enormous difficulty forming a cohesive, sane and relevant argument that you’d prefer to call names (like 4 year olds), lie, slander, demonize and, avoid logical argument/debate and, if it weren’t illegal, would probably kill those you don’t agree with.

Try this bit of prose from Alan Keyes. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34270

He’s a much better arguer than I. I’m sure you folks could start a whole new blog just trying to get your little heads around this. But we already know what you’re going to say.

Have fun in your little worlds. The truth will be revealed before too long and you will wish you were on the ‘right’ (winning) side. But it will be too late.

And thanks again to all you atheists and ranters for helping increase our traffic and getting more signs out there. Your work is extraordinary.

Les - Yes, your domain tells it like it really is doesn’t it? And what’s wrong with us, people? Some of us have brains in our heads. If that’s wrong then I’m glad to be wrong.

Funny folks you people are. All this attention only serves our purpose in spreading the word.

Drawing attention to your self-serving underhandedness in the guise of promoting religion is not something I’m afraid to do. After all, one can hardly discuss why something is a problem if people aren’t familiar with what you are talking about. Will it help to bring you new sales? Perhaps, but then do you really think there are a ton of Christians hanging out on this website waiting for me to show them places where they can buy cheap ass reproductions of the Decalogue? If you do then you’re either amazingly optimistic or hopelessly naive.

It’s also funny that you’ve totally misrepresented the purpose of the entire 10 Commandments campaign. The purpose is simply to respond to the anti-1st amendment crowd by multiplying the 10 commandments you folks hate so much. It seems to be working quite nicely.

I’m not anti-First Amendment, if anything I’m all for it, it helps to protect me from the likes of yourself. And who said I hate the Ten Commandments? There are at least four of them that I consider to be good advice regardless of where they originated from and I’d be much happier if more Christians made a serious effort to follow them. Honestly, I think more Christians would do well to hang copies of the Ten Commandments in their homes and take some time to ponder them on a regular basis as many seem to have forgotten some of them, like that one about “bearing false witness.” Even if every house in my town had one of your cheap ass displays on the front lawn it wouldn’t bother me in the least. If anything, I’d be pleased to see people exercising their First Amendment rights. Stick one in front of the courthouse or some other government building, however, and we’ve got a problem.

Many of you appear to have trouble with the 1st amendment.

Funny, I’ve said the same thing about many Christians. Personally, I love the First Amendment and consider myself a staunch defender of it.

Roy Moore is a citizen, his status as a (former) judge, in no way prevents him from the protection of the 1st amendment.

The above statement is absolutely true and I agree with it wholeheartedly. However, his stance as a judge doesn’t give him the authority to utilize his office to promote his religious beliefs as being superior to all others and the First Amendment itself is what restricts him in that capacity. He can have a million Decalogues all over his yard at home, he can even have a copy in his personal judicial chambers it would seem, but not in the courtroom nor in the rotunda of the building nor on the front lawn of the courthouse where it could be construed to be a government endorsement of a specific religion.

If that weren’t true, George Bush would have been jailed a long time ago for his professing of his faith as the President. Where is the ACLU on this one? Shamefully silent, that’s where. Where’s the lawsuit? Are you going to try and convince the world that Roy Moore can’t display a ‘decoration’ (printed text) in the courthouse that he was given exclusive management of, but that it’s OK for ole George to exclaim his religion to the entire country and the world? I’m surprised you folks aren’t convulsing every time he says “God Bless America”. Or, are you? But of course, this is somehow different. He’s talking. It’s pure speech, is that it? Is that the explanation? The Supreme court has held numerous times that printed or written speech is deserving of the same protections as verbal speech no matter who the person is.

Former Judge Roy Moore has professed his faith many times publicly in much the same way as the President has without so much as an eyelash being batted as a result. Last I checked, however, President Bush hasn’t tried to place a five ton granite “decoration” featuring the Ten Commandments in the foyer of the White House. If he did I wouldn’t be surprised to see a lawsuit spring up over it. Such monuments imply an endorsement by the government when in such settings, an endorsement which is restricted by the First Amendment.

Do I convulse every time Bush says “God Bless America?” Nope, just like I don’t when someone says “bless you” after I sneeze.

And where does the Atheist community get their twisted interpretation of the 1st amendment? It has obviously been completely ignored that Congress had zero influence on the Roy Moore decision to place a Decalogue monument in the AL courthouse rhotunda. And, there certainly were no laws created on the subject. Moore was simply exercising his freedom of speech and certain of your little groupies didn’t like it so they sued.

I can’t speak for the “Atheist community” as a whole, but I get my twisted interpretation from a variety of sources including the Supreme Court and Thomas Jefferson himself. It’s also clear that you don’t have a firm grasp of who filed the lawsuit in Roy Moore’s little debacle as it wasn’t anyone I would consider to be part of my “little groupies,” as you put it. The lawsuit was filed by Melinda Maddox, Robert Beckerle and Wade Johnson. Maddox is a Roman Catholic, Beckerle and Johnson are Southern Baptists. Last I checked that makes them all Christians. Imagine that, Christians who felt the monument violated the First Amendment and took a stand against it. I suppose some Christians do try to do the right thing after all. But then let’s not let facts get in the way of a good spurious argument, shall we?

As for con artists, liars and the like: The majority of Americans (who are also God fearing) would conclude the opposite of your rants about me.

Perhaps they would, but considering that this same majority seems to think shows like American Idol are the highpoint of entertainment, that’s not saying a whole lot. Regardless, until the majority does speak up and vents their opinion on you we’re left with your speculation only and I consider that dubious at best. The only person here who’s ranting is you.

In fact, it seems that those in your camp (atheists and ACLU), who completely ignore the clear writing of the 1st amendment, are the real con artists. You so hate the words of God, and you are so obviously pained to see the 1st commandment “I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me” that you would prefer to simply do away with freedom of speech so that you don’t have to hear or see that which your master hates.

You’re drawing conclusions based on faulty assumptions. Actually it’s more likely that you’re deliberately misrepresenting the issue, but I can’t say that with certainty so I’ll give you a small benefit of the doubt and go with my first statement. I don’t hate the words of God mainly because I don’t believe they are the literal words of God. I also have no problems with hearing or reading the words as I keep the Bible handy for reference purposes and have read the book through several times over. Surely if your claim were true that I am “obviously pained to see the 1st commandment” then I wouldn’t keep such materials within easy reach. My issue isn’t with the Bible or anything it says, it’s with the government endorsing one religious viewpoint over all others.

You are all slaves to your own nearsighted, close minded, hate mongering bigotry that you can’t even think clearly. You have such enormous difficulty forming a cohesive, sane and relevant argument that you’d prefer to call names (like 4 year olds), lie, slander, demonize and, avoid logical argument/debate and, if it weren’t illegal, would probably kill those you don’t agree with.

You seem to know an awful lot of what I am like for having only just visited my website for the first time. It’s clear that you’re again forming conclusions based on your preconceived biases without having looked around my website enough to know how much of an argument I’m able to form. I’m sure the stunning hypocrisy of sitting there calling me a nearsighted, closed minded, hate mongering bigot and then complaining about how I’d prefer to call names like a four year old is completely lost on you. Your conclusion that I would probably kill those people who don’t agree with me is ironic considering quite a bit of Christian history is filled with that very same attitude on the part of believers.

Try this bit of prose from Alan Keyes. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34270

As soon as I have more time, I will check into this link.

He’s a much better arguer than I.

Well, if this reply of yours is any indicator then I’d say you’re probably making a gross understatement here. Then again, I haven’t actually looked at Alan’s writings yet.

I’m sure you folks could start a whole new blog just trying to get your little heads around this. But we already know what you’re going to say.

Not really, I’ve had no trouble getting my head around this. You’ve not really presented much of a challenge so far. Still, you seem to be making claims of psychic ability now so, please, enlighten me on what I’m going to say.

Have fun in your little worlds. The truth will be revealed before too long and you will wish you were on the ‘right’ (winning) side. But it will be too late.

Yes, we’ve heard that one before. Not exactly a compelling argument.

And thanks again to all you atheists and ranters for helping increase our traffic and getting more signs out there. Your work is extraordinary.

Like I said before, more Christians putting up signs aren’t necessarily a bad thing as far as I’m concerned so long as it’s on private property. It’s just a shame so few of them will actually bother to follow the rules they profess to believe in.

Les - Yes, your domain tells it like it really is doesn’t it? And what’s wrong with us, people? Some of us have brains in our heads. If that’s wrong then I’m glad to be wrong.

The question you have to ask yourself is this: Is my domain a reference to myself or to everyone else? Subtlety doesn’t appear to be your strong point and I’ll hold off judgment on how much of a brain you’ve got until you’ve been examined by a qualified neurologist. If you have one, you’ve not demonstrated it terribly well here today.

Suddenly, I feel all warm and fuzzy inside!

Wonderful fisking Les!

And now, a parable:

A man came upon another man hitting himself repeatedly in the head with a rock. “Why are you hitting yourself in the head with a rock?” The first man asked the second.

The man paused. “Because,” he said, “it feels so good when I stop.”

We can both lay claim to being the first and the second man now.

Thanks for the linkage!

Say, is this my rock or yours? :-D

Thanks for such a succinct and eloquent response to ignorance. I really appreciated your writing that. Hopefully he will read it and maybe, just maybe, something will take hold. Why is it that people like him don’t get it. Here’s a scenario he might get. He walks into court and there as he’s sitting at his trial is a huge monument to Allah complete with excerpts from the Koran (the judge is a Muslim in this scene – an American born, Muslim. (I know, I know he’s claim that this country is based on Judeo-Christian beliefs but in his argument this judge is simply expressing his first amendment rights. So is mine.) :dance:

Even if he reads it I doubt it would sink in because he’ll probably brush off anything I have to say as being unworthy of consideration for the simple reason that I’m an atheist. It’s clear by many of the statements he’s made that facts and logic aren’t a part of his thinking process in this matter.

At least if we give him the benefit of the doubt and accept the idea that he’s truly doing something because he thinks it’s the right thing to do and not because he can make a few bucks off his fellow believers and stir up trouble at the same time. The nature of his sales pitch on his website leads me to believe he really is just a conman trying to hustle people by intentionally misrepresenting an emotional issue so he can sell some overpriced cheap ass yard signs. He’s no better in my mind then the asshats who perpetuate the too-good-to-be-true used car sale scams on their fellow Christians.

Well, I’m a Christian, and I want very much to protect my right to my faith.

When the government starts formally endorsing other people’s view of how religion should be practiced, that right is in jeopardy.

The president can, in a speech, say that he believes in God. He can even be seen praying in the oval office before meeting with John Ashcroft..I certainly would.

But the first time he says that people who aren’t religious can’t be patriotic..I have issues.

When he signs legislation that provides extra money to religious groups, which is not available to non-religious groups...I have issues.

The first time I hear of a judge showing the Ten Commandments...and atheists have a legitimate fear of getting screwed in child custody proceedings, or not getting sentence reductions that “God-Fearing” people get, I have issues.

And believe me..I do not need to be a groupie, follower or anything else of Les, to figure these things out for my self.

WRONG! You are totally off base Les:

“underhandedness”? How is selling a sign to those who want it, underhanded? And don’t try the same lame crap about “lies, con artist” etc. It’s called libel, and you made it up. I already challenged you the proof, which was conveniently dodged.

“I’m not anti-First Amendment”. Wrong. You are totally anti, especially when it appears in public. Why else would you support a completely incorrect “interpretation” ? And it doesn’t require interpretation unless you’re an idiot. It’s perfectly clear, concise and limited to CONGRESS.
If you were truly FOR the 1st, then we wouldn’t be having this ‘debate’.

“However, his stance as a judge doesn’t give him the authority to utilize his office to promote his religious beliefs”

Sure it does. He is still a citizen. You prove your ‘anti’ yet again.

“as being superior to all others and the First Amendment itself is what restricts him in that capacity.”

He didn’t claim it to be superior. You put words in yet another person’s mouth. And again, you’re wrong. The 1st in no way prevents him from doing as you say. The 1st is a prohibition on CONGRESS (read Les, read) not on anyone else. It’s to prevent laws on the subject Les, NOT on individual liberties. And NO Les, Roy Moore is not the law, and is not CONGRESS. Can you say “brain dead”?

“five ton granite “decoration” featuring the Ten Commandments in the foyer of the White House. If he did I wouldn’t be surprised to see a lawsuit spring up over it

So it’s the 5 ton monument now huh? How about just over 2 tons. get your facts straight Les. Not that it really matters but it DOES shoe how much emphasis you place on it’s relative ‘permanency’. That’s what really bothered you folks. The fact that Moore intended it to be relatively permanent was the real problem.

A lawsuit over a monument in the Whitehouse Les ? What about all those drawings and carvings on/in the Supreme Court building Les? It’s only a matter of time.

“I can’t speak for the “Atheist community” as a whole” Wow, then you aren’t even up on your own ‘religious’ doctrine are you Les? How can you then speak about Christians, or even purport to being able to discern a true one from a fool, if you don’t even know your own? You can’t.

“Christians who felt the monument violated the First Amendment”. I would argue that they aren’t Christians at all. I would guess they are Atheists in disguise, who are using the term ‘Christian’ to try and support their false positions. You can’t deny that SATAN is wise also.

“Perhaps they would, but considering that this same majority seems to think shows like American Idol are the highpoint of entertainment, that’s not saying a whole lot.” Huh? Are you sure that the “Majority” that you speak of is the same “Majority” that actually watches the crap on TV like A.I. ?  YOu have no clue. There are MILLIONS of Americans who are smart enough to avoid the liberal and morally bankrupt TV. Not you obviously.

“I don’t hate the words of God mainly because I don’t believe they are the literal words of God.” We know this already Les. And you DO hate them. By being an atheist, you know that God exists but you shun him anyway out of some desire for self-god-like-governance.

“obviously pained to see the 1st commandment” then I wouldn’t keep such materials within easy reach. My issue isn’t with the Bible or anything it says, it’s with the government endorsing one religious viewpoint over all others.”
That’s crap Les. You keep it in reach because you want to be able to quote it properly soas to try, in endlessly feeble attempts, to one-up those who DO beleive in the inspired wortd of God. Those of us who are wise Les, know your master’s tactics.

BTW- There is NO prohibition on the government ‘endorsing’ anything. Again, let’s read together Les “CONGRESS shall make no law”...that says NOTHING about endorsing, talking about, promoting or even recommending. It ONLY says that no LAWS can be made to establish an “OFFICIAL” religion and to try and FORCE you to worship, believe etc.. You still can’t read can you Les?

“You seem to know an awful lot of what I am like for having only just visited my website for the first time.” Les, it’s obvious what you are like from the RANT you first made which I shold have known better than to dignify with a reply. You’re too shallow to be any fun Les. You’re standing on a mountain made of sand from which you preach, not realizing that your foundation is slipping away.

“I’m sure the stunning hypocrisy of sitting there calling me a nearsighted, closed minded, hate mongering bigot and then complaining about how I’d prefer to call names like a four year old is completely lost on you.” Not lost on me Les, lost on you. You are too blinded by your master’s “wisdom” to know the truth.

“Your conclusion that I would probably kill those people who don’t agree with me is ironic considering quite a bit of Christian history is filled with that very same attitude on the part of believers.” Ironic Les? So only Christians have ever killed for their beliefs? I can’t help what some people (called Christians) did hundreds of years ago Les. That should be obvious. But alas, you attempt to use it to hipocratize ALL Christians. Go ahead Les. Sticks and stones....

“I’ve had no trouble getting my head around this. You’ve not really presented much of a challenge so far” The challenges have always been dodged Les. You can’t prove a word you said originally where you acuse me of being a liar and a conman. And yes, TRUTH IS a defense for libel, but you can’t defend yourself, nor absolve yourself of your libel Les.. Dodge, Dodge, Dodge..

“Still, you seem to be making claims of psychic ability now so, please, enlighten me on what I’m going to say.” No claims of psychic ability here Les. It’s just that your beleif system is so insane and illogical that it’s very limited in its ability to deal with Truth. So yes, we DO know what you’re going to say. You can look up your own answers on the Internet Les. They’re the same tired, specious arguments that non-believers have been using for ages. Sounds like a classic attempt at damage control Les. Defleting and dodging again. You’re so bad at it too..

“Like I said before, more Christians putting up signs aren’t necessarily a bad thing as far as I’m concerned so long as it’s on private property.” Again you PROVE that you know nothing of the 1st. There is no stipulation anywhere in the 1st about public or private Les. You make it up as you go along. and.."aren’t necessarily a bad thing “ ? What Les, can you not decide? Either it IS, or it isn’t. You need to make up your mind. NO wonder you cant form a cohesive.

I’m done Les. You can have all the fun you want with your ‘follower’ sheeple. I would be as big a fool as you to continue trying to reason with you.

“Is my domain a reference to myself or to everyone else?” You never cease to be funny Les. Your skill for self deprecation is awesome. If you were truly after everyone else you would have registered “StupidEvilBastards” Les. But you didn’t. You even gloat on your home page with tat sinister picture of yours. “StupidEvilBastard” is SINGULAR Les, Not Plural. So you are obviously talking about yourself. No need for retort here Les, you’ve backed yourself into a corner.

Like they say, ‘you can’t tell a fool from a wise man, if they continue to argue’. And I know from my experience here that it won’t be me that continues to rant.

Ciao.

Wow Robert, so much anger and bile in one reply, you do your religion proud.

The only point you made that came close to being accurate was the weight of the monument (5,280 pounds) so a big thumbs up on your trivial pursuit skills. Parsing your rant has only made it even more clear why the government should not be in the business of funneling “faith based” funds to religious organizations involved in teaching anything to anyone. I may be wrong and the fault does not lay with religion, maybe your madness is organic. Lots of fruitcakes gravitate to religion for reasons known only to that individual fruitcake. Some wrap their heads in tinfoil to keep out mind control rays. Some believe their neighbors dog is commanding them to kill. You just happen to believe that atheism is a religion and that “satan” is our master, that people who do not believe in your view of the “holy trinity” cannot possibly be christian, and that people who are opposed to a government employee sneaking his religious iconography into a taxpayer funded building are “anti” first amendment.

And the way you put your ideas across...so very acidic. Let me tell you that IF there is a hell and I do indeed wind up there that I will not be surprised at all when I bump into you. Well, you and all of the other loud mouthed, ill tempered, narrow minded, bible thumping bullies that figure shouting down an opponent equates with winning an argument. Here’s a hint: we quit arguing after if becomes clear you are unreasonable and will only respond with more angry blather.

Go ahead and sell your signs to the gullible and prepare to bilk the same mouth breathers when the next big “battle” appears for you to haul in your holy dollars. They would probably only end up giving it to some idiot televangelist who would use it to hire a prostitute (ala Jimmy Swaggart), put air conditioners in their dogs houses (ala Jim and Tammy Baker), or air a television show where the televangelist would suggest blowing up the U.S. State Department with a nuclear weapon (ala Pat Robertson on the 700 Club).

Maybe we do need to put an icon up, I vote for a plaque which reads:

“You see the mote which is in your brother’s eye; but you do not see the beam which is in your own eye. When you cast out the beam from your own eye, then you will see to cast out the mote from your brother’s eye.”

Can you read past your beam?

WRONG! You are totally off base Les: How is selling a sign to those who want it, underhanded? And don’t try the same lame crap about “lies, con artist” etc. It’s called libel, and you made it up. I already challenged you the proof, which was conveniently dodged.

Looking back at your earlier reply you didn’t make any such challenge at all. How is selling a sign to those that want it underhanded? If that’s all you were doing it wouldn’t be, but you’re implying that this will in some way damage the ACLU which is quite simply not true. That’s called deceptive marketing practices, but then you seem to be well versed in deception. If you feel I’ve libeled you then feel free to file a lawsuit at anytime. After all, isn’t that the threat you tried to use on Brent? I’m willing to bet you’re not even remotely aware of what it takes to win a libel lawsuit and are just tossing the threat around to try and scare people into keeping quiet.

For someone who claims to be such an honest and upstanding Christian perhaps you can explain why you’re lying right here on this website? Why the use of false names and email addresses in your previous two comments, Robert? The ones under the names “Who ?” and “Bill Blass” in another thread? I know they were you because 1) The typing style is exactly the same right down to how you quoted the entry you were responding to and 2) they were all posted within an hour of each other and they all have exactly the same IP address attached to them.

The rest of your argument in this reply would be amusing if it weren’t so pathetic. Not only do you claim to have the only right opinion, but you also claim to know how I feel and what I believe. You must be related to Miss Cleo. She was a pretty well-known lying con-artist as well. You function wonderfully as a perfect bad example of what a Christian should be and I appreciate you demonstrating it so well here at SEB so I can use you as such in future discussions.

I doubt you’ll be able to resist checking back in from time to time, but you’ll probably continue using false names to make any more replies so just remember that I’m tracking your IP address. Shame you have to lie to try and bolster your opinion. That’s usually the tactic of someone who knows he’s wrong.

Thanks for that tidbit Les, I was going to take the time to respond to Who? and Bill Blass because I thought that a plague of morons had descended on your blog, but now I won’t waste my time.

Nope, just a single religious nut trying to pretend he has more support than he really does.

Hey, do you like that “sinister” picture of me up in the corner? Ooooo! Scary!

Robert Frey & others of the like:

Many people such as yourself are arguing for a 1st Amendment “right” to display the 10 Commandment statues. But see, we’re talking about actions of the government, not the private citizens. If you want to display that gaudy statue on your private property, then go for it. But...the government (as a collective entity) isn’t insured a right to free speech. Likewise, when they exercise YOUR (religious view of) “free speech” & not mine, then they are breeching the line that separates church & state. Most importantly though, they are using MY taxpayer’s dollars have such statues created, installed, & maintained. In a case such as Alabama’s, the government also uses taxpayer’s dollars to fight lawsuits to retain the statue. Bottom line: A government sponsored/funded religious statue cannot be defined as “free speech.”