God was obviously trying to make a statement.
Damned if I know what it was because we all know God works in mysterious ways.
Either that or he’s got on hell of a sense of humour!

“Look at all these votive gifts,” Diagoras the atheist was told in the sanctuary of Samothrace, which houses the great gods who were famous for saving people from the dangers at sea.  “There would be many more votives,” the atheist unflinchingly replied, “if all those who were actually drowned at sea had had the chance to set up monuments.”

He’s probably just practising for the second coming.  I mean first time round He had His son flogged, revil-ed (I think I sang that once, when forced at excommunication pointinto the school choir to warble some easter hymn) struck with a reed and crucified.  Just think of the horrors He can inflict on His offspring second time round using 21st century technology.  See how these Christians love one another.

This clearly proves there is no god.  If there was, Clara Jean woulda been toast!

If Jesus was killed now we would all be walking around with little electric chairs on a chain around our necks!!!!

I’m surprised you scientist-types haven’t considered the millions of times people have said such prayers when lightning did NOT strike?

I’m surprised you scientist-types haven’t considered the millions of times people have said such prayers when lightning did NOT strike?

Ah, silly christian, you can’t have “free will” and prayer. Do you think the other christians that sank at sea didn’t pray? Or weren’t as “faithful”? Maybe god had a plan for them? If so, then “free will” doesn’t exist and you are pre-ordained to do “as god wills”. If so, why did god bother at all? Maybe it’s a test...then, if god is all knowing, why does he need this test at all?

I love all the circular logic you christians, jews, and muslims use to kill other humans.

you can’t have “free will� and prayer.

Why not? I’m defining free will as “within my human power,” whereas I pray for the things that are not within my human power. How are these mutually exclusive?

Do you think the other christians that sank at sea didn’t pray? Or weren’t as “faithful�?

No I don’t. I become uncomfortable, in fact, when Pat Robertson, or anybody, labels a tragedy as divine retribution for their sins. This pastor’s comments sum it up perfectly for me:

At the time of Our Lord there was a tragedy in Jerusalem. The tower of Siloam fell and killed eighteen men. Our Lord asked His hearers if they thought those eighteen were worse sinners than all the other inhabitants of Jerusalem. Their response isn’t recorded. But Jesus answered His own question. He said “I tell you no.â€? They were not worse sinners, but they were sinners. Jesus rejected the idea that the tower’s fall was retribution for specific sins. That tragedy was part of the chaos that sin inflicts upon all men, forgiven believers and wicked unbelievers alike. Still, our Lord does not shy away from using it as a call to repentance. He says: “I tell you no. But unless you repent you will all likewise perish.â€? (Luke 13:1-5)

Maybe god had a plan for them? If so, then “free will� doesn’t exist and you are pre-ordained to do “as god wills�.

Maybe we are not sharing the same definition of free will? With mine, those who God drowned because it was His plan (I think I’m following you here), are still not deprived of their free will while alive. If you mean God killing them (for whatever reason) negates free will, then your definition of free will would have to include the ability to choose not to die.

If so, why did god bother at all? Maybe it’s a test...then, if god is all knowing, why does he need this test at all?

Ouch. Good question. I don’t claim to have resolved the long-standing Calvinism/Arminianism debate, but I will offer this plausible response to this particular situation:
Perhaps, even though God knows what we will choose, He has us go through with the action so that, at judgement, we can’t claim: “But God, you’re wrong! I wouldn’t really have done that in that situation. How can you condemn me with no actual proof of how I would have acted?” When we’ve acted it out, the historical record stands, not because God has a bad memory, but for our benefit to see that we’re being judged fairly.

I’m surprised you scientist-types haven’t considered the millions of times people have said such prayers when lightning did NOT strike?

What actually is the point and meaning of this comment.  Are you some how claiming that lots of other people have prayed not to struck by lightning, have not been struck by lightning, ergo their prayer has worked? Do you know the odds of being struck by lightning?  Also what does God do, ignore 1 prayer in a million?

Perhaps, contrary to popular belief, not all the lawyers are in hell. Perhaps the Divine legal dept said ‘Hey boss, she is only praying for her family- she isn’t covered- zap her.’

Let’s get this straight.  A woman prayed for her family. God allowed the lightning to strike he kitchen (which has got to be at least a mild inconvenience) but decided to save her. Why- oh I forgot- anything that is contradictory, illogical or just plain stupid is because God is ineffale, and being only human I can’t understand.

This is an arguement up their with ‘Carbon Dating is wrong- God made it look old.’ Why? oh yeah, ineffable.

If God really wanted free will, why does he keep getting involved?  Anytime he interferes he removes that free will.

Lucifer- what are you doing here.  Go and play with the Republicans I gave you.

What actually is the point and meaning of this comment.

The amazing fact that this story was posted as a great description of “how God works/is.”
How about the millions that pray daily, for whatever blessing, that aren’t struck by lightning? How does one incident define God’s character? Why don’t we look at the millions who have not been struck by lightning while praying? I mean, is that all (the lightning bolt) God was responsible for that day? Could He not have also done countless good things that day?
The interpretation here even assumes that the final outcome of the lightning is bad. How do we know the aftermath won’t lead to incredible blessings in the woman’s/family’s /someone’s life?

If God really wanted free will, why does he keep getting involved?

So you’re not an athiest either? You can’t blame events on something you don’t believe exists.
Maybe He keeps getting involved to save our sorry butts from how things would go down if He didn’t?

L4T I would take this as a sign of the incredible gullibility oft substituted for faith in contemporary christians.

“I prayed to God. My house lit on fire. How should I feel?” Answer: “Praise Jesus!”.

Gotta admit man, that’s a damn awkward logic to follow.

The amazing fact that this story was posted as a great description of “how God works/is.�

So you’re not an athiest either? You can’t blame events on something you don’t believe exists.

Wrong and wrong.  Les was commenting on the irony.  I was commenting on the fact that if your point of view was correct, God is a bit of a busy-body.  When a person is pulled alive from a collapsed building, I don’t see the love of a supreme being at work- I see plain blind luck.  If it was God, why save one and not another?  The only answer to that is ‘unknowable plan’.

If prayers for intervention really worked is that not admission that the original outcome was wrong, or in someway not pleasing to God (NB I do not admit God’s existence with that comment).  Why allow the original outcome if not pleasing to Him?

‘Dick was terminally ill- the doctors gave him x weeks to live.  But I prayed and he got better.’

Options
1) The docs were wrong.
2) There was something the docs didn’t know about happening, because that bit hasn’t been discovered by us yet.
3) The docs had a rethink, and cured him.
4) God thinks ‘Now Jane has prayed, I’ve changed my mind’. What in that prayer could change God’s mind?  As God knows all about us, he couldn’t suddenly think ‘My, Jane really loves Dick- better cure him.’

What is it precisely the prayer has changed in God’s mind.  If you love him, he knows, and as a omnipotent, loving being really shouldn’t need the flattery to make sure he helps you.

(LOL- Submit the word you see below:
reached - no, don’t think I have been)

L4t, Diagoras already answered you, more than four hundred years before Christ was born.  God does indeed work in mysterious ways…
Your position is “heads I win, tails you lose”:
a) man prays, is not struck by lightning:  God heard the prayer, so He exists.
b) man prays, is struck by lightning:  God had other plans, so He exists.

L4T: This pastor’s comments sum it up perfectly for me:

Your pastor: Hurricane Katrina is our inheritance from Adam.
Keep it simple and bible-based for simple bible-based children.
WTF.

This post is for Les: are you still working at Best Buy?  I’m looking to apply and am curious how it’s going.  Do they do a urine screen?  Do they test for advanced knowledge of all the different products or just a specific area?

Zog, I never got hired by Best Buy. They interviewed me and decided I was over-qualified for the job even thought I tried to point out that, after 10 and 1/2 months of being unemployed I would be eternally grateful to be working at all.

Hahahaha…

When I read this story, the first thing that popped into my mind was how much you want to bet she wasn’t just praying for her family to be okay but also for something negative to happen to someone else (or something insanely selfish).  I just figured that was nature balancing out her request.

Zilch:

Your position is “heads I win, tails you lose�:
a) man prays, is not struck by lightning:  God heard the prayer, so He exists.
b) man prays, is struck by lightning:  God had other plans, so He exists.

That’s not the position at all. Read Luke 13: 1-5 again. It states neither a) or b), but
c) Tragedies happen to everyone regardless of whether they are praying.

Your pastor: Hurricane Katrina is our inheritance from Adam.
Keep it simple and bible-based for simple bible-based children.

You might like this take on childlike faith.

Last Hussar: O.K., I understand now, you are an athiest, and you were just posing questions in the form of: “If God does x, how come y. I was just checking your status.

‘Dick was terminally ill- the doctors gave him x weeks to live.  But I prayed and he got better.’

Options
1) The docs were wrong.
2) There was something the docs didn’t know about happening, because that bit hasn’t been discovered by us yet.
3) The docs had a rethink, and cured him.
4) God thinks ‘Now Jane has prayed, I’ve changed my mind’. What in that prayer could change God’s mind?  As God knows all about us, he couldn’t suddenly think ‘My, Jane really loves Dick- better cure him.’

What is it precisely the prayer has changed in God’s mind.  If you love him, he knows, and as a omnipotent, loving being really shouldn’t need the flattery to make sure he helps you.

How about Job? God let Satan have at his servant, even though God didn’t specify what kind of faith-testing nastiness Satan should dole out.  Job’s story is a prime example of God permitting (vs. actively causing) temporary evil for the greater end result of Job’s increased reliance on God.
The Bible repeatedly gives these examples of God calling his creation to trust Him. Prayer is not a tool to get God to “wake up and smell the coffee,” but an ongoing process for us to see that His ways are better than ours, so we will cease to trust in our own understanding. In answer to prayer, God sometimes says ‘yes,’ and sometimes says ‘I’ve got a better plan - sit tight (maybe for a long time)and watch this’. Even the eternal judgment separates between the two types of people: 1) Those who say to God “Thy will be done,” and 2) Those to whom God says: “Thy will be done.”

More for Last Hussar:

Let’s get this straight.  A woman prayed for her family. God allowed the lightning to strike he kitchen (which has got to be at least a mild inconvenience) but decided to save her. Why- oh I forgot- anything that is contradictory, illogical or just plain stupid is because God is ineffale, and being only human I can’t understand.

Well, I’m glad you have the magical ability to know how the Clara Brown incident will all shake out. If this whole Christianity thing is correct, I’m hoping God will not force me to watch when He shows you how Brown’s incident turned out. I suspect you won’t be calling it/Him contradictory, illogical, or just plain stupid then. However, that’s just my belief.

L4T: According to Ravi’s ravings …
Matthew 18:3 - Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
In other words: become trustingly simple.
Matthew 18:4 -Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
In other words: become trustingly simple.
Ravi Zacharias - Let us do away with this cultural misconception that “childlike faith” equals “intellectual simplicity”; and let us walk boldly forward as humble children of God into the wisdom and greatness the Kingdom of God affords.
In other words: trustingly simple babble for simply trusting sheeple.
It was interesting and gave me something to smile about but I’m disappointed he didn’t mention Matthew 19:14 – Suffer the little children.
The whole bible was written for un-educated masses and they gobbled up its simplicity along with the divine sticks and carrots (thanks Zilch).

I call Dad every weekend for about 30 minutes. He loves the net. His current mission is to find out How Constantine chose What books went into the bible and Which were knocked back and Why. (Do you know? I think I asked it before.)
It was in response to my 2nd brother sending us both an article about brain exercises and whether he (dad) should do something differently.
I laughed and told him he was already doing everything the article suggested.
At almost 89 he’s interested in anything that stretches the mind as well as playing many games of computer solitaire to keep his hand eye coordination happening.
And according to your doctrine after he dies I’ll meet him again in hell.
If only that were true. I like his mind; I like him. sigh

L4T,
I feel compelled to point out that you quote or allude to the Bible often in order to prove something, but to those who lack belief in the Bible as divinely inspired, this ploy means nothing.

Try presenting information we can falsify or accept as valid without having to depend on faith to get us there. An outdated War and Peace-like novel won’t accomplish this.

Right now it just seems to me you’re a Teacher’s Assistant with no credentials.

I have to say, too, that the link you provided suggests a troublesome attitude that many accept as a positive one:

Brennan Manning spells it out this way, “For the disciple of Jesus ‘becoming like a little child’ means the willingness to accept oneself as being of little account and to be regarded as unimportant,” and may I add—that God is of great account and of utmost importance.

Even ignoring the non sequitur, that’s a truly fucked-up view and anyone who promotes it could surely benefit from counseling.

Tragedies happen to everyone regardless of whether they are praying.

So what good is prayer, L4t, and how is the result of prayer distinguishable from chance?  There have been, and continue to be, many studies done on the efficacy of intercessory prayer, and so far they’ve come up with, you guessed it, zilch.  No, wait- that Columbia University study showed positive results.  Too bad it was a fraud.

Of course, even if prayer doesn’t stop lightning, or anything else, there are at least two other possible benefits it could conceivably bring:
a) it could comfort those who pray, and give them strength to deal with adversity.
b) it could show God that they believe, and make it more likely that they win the car, I mean go to Heaven, when they die.

I’m quite willing to believe in one of these possible benefits.  Guess which one…

His current mission is to find out How Constantine chose What books went into the bible and Which were knocked back and Why. (Do you know? I think I asked it before.)

We’ve discussed this here before, John.  The short answer is that, apparently, no one really knows very much about exactly what happened at the Nicene Council.  As far as I recall, the discussion here ended up as a food fight between the Christians and the skeptics, with one group holding that the books making up the current accepted scripture were chosen on the basis of their truth, and the other group claiming that the decisions about what to include were political, aimed at consolidating the power of the Church.  Guess which group held which opinion…