Sexy Sadie:

Even if the entire Bible were to be refuted, True Believers wouldn’t hear a word of it. Indeed, parts of the Bible have been proven scientifically inaccurate (i.e. the age of the Earth), yet you don’t see Young Earth Creationists changing their beliefs to fit the facts.

Admittedly, if the entire Bible were to be refuted, I’d probably still be a long while in coming around. I’d be praying something like:
“God, surely this must be some gross misunderstanding. Please, show me how this proof can’t be true!” If no answer came, I’d still wonder if the “proof” itself wasn’t some test from the Almighty Himself a la Abraham with his son Isaac.
Trust me folks, I have nothing but respect for athiests (even more so since coming to this board), and have my own share of times when I wonder if I’m just whacko.
I even contemplated praying to God: “God, if the whole Chritianity thing is just a hoax, would you make that evident to me.” Hows that for nuts?
Even despite those moments, something still whispers to me that I’ve connected with God. On top of that inner sense, I’d have to discount countless things I’ve experienced in the last three years as “coincidence” to entertain unbelief.
Hopeless fool? Maybe. I wouldn’t want anyone to come to a useless faith. Y’all have probbly heard this before, but in my personal experience, faith does come before external confirmation. I love the example my pastor used. In one of the “Raiders of the Lost Ark” movies, the main character must literally step out on to thin air (to a stepping stone that he has been told IS THERE, despite it’s invvisibility). In the movie, each step he takes in to the invisible is rewarded with solid purchase on a step that becomes visible - but not until he takes the potentially fatal step.
Out of curiousity, has anyone here ever prayed something like, “God, if Jesus really is you, and Christ really is the way, could you send me some sign?” Just wondering.

Out of curiousity, has anyone here ever prayed something like…

Not once in my life.

KPG:

Try reading a well-rounded look at the issue at http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm

It’ll give you a better idea of what ideas are out there.

Thanks for the link. Reading it now, and not just cause I was born and raised near Toronto (the site you provided is maintained by the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance).

L4T: Out of curiousity, has anyone here ever prayed something like, “God, if Jesus really is you, and Christ really is the way, could you send me some sign?�?

No, although when I was nine I used to pray every night that the small business owners that I knew in my town would get more patronage. It didn’t work--today, many of those businesses have either been bought out or razed. 

Also, when I was a Christian (prior to age twelve), I did not believe that God and Jesus were one and the same--I assumed that they were merely father and son.

has anyone here ever prayed

Sure and I don’t recall ever getting any ‘proof’ other than staying alive but, shit, heaps of non-believers stay alive too so, that’s no proof of any invisible alien, is it?
Do bad things happen to good people? We all know they do, don’t we.
If you’re really paranoid you’d think god was getting even for some major/minor transgression - if you weren’t paranoid you’d just realise that, Shit Happens.
But, what’s praying got to do with the existence of invisible beings? One could just as well be talking to oneself; to concentrate the strength to keep going.

Frank Sinatra: Basically, I’m for anything that gets you through the night - be it prayer, tranquilizers or a bottle of Jack Daniels.

LuckyJohn: Sure and I don’t recall ever getting any ‘proof’ other than staying alive…

Well, you can tell by the way you use your walk, you’re a woman’s man: no time for talk.

Out of curiousity, has anyone here ever prayed something like, “God, if Jesus really is you, and Christ really is the way, could you send me some sign?�? Just wondering.

L4t, you piqued my curiosity, so I just now prayed “God, did you send L4t to bring me to Jesus?  If so, make this coin flip come up heads”.  Then I flipped.

I should explain here that I flipped a two-Euro coin, a German one to be exact, and it doesn’t really have a head on its obverse side, but just a map of Europe and “2 Euro” stamped on it.  But this side counts as “heads”, because the reverse side has a German eagle on it, and hereabouts they don’t say “heads or tails”, but “Kopf oder Adler”, that is “head or eagle”.  I chose the result of a coin flip for God to reveal Himself, because I didn’t want to make it too hard for Him ("God, make Bush honest") or be greedy ("God, send me to Allah’s paradise").

Lo and behold, it came up heads.  L4t, that means that God says it’s your responsibility to bring me to Jesus.  I don’t envy you.

I have difficulty understanding how matter came out of nothing. No matter how small we understand the components of matter to be, where did those smallest elements come from? As basic as this argument is, I can’t get over that question. How do athiests resolve this?

Elwed and KPG have ably answered this already.  I’ll just try to give you another angle.  I too have difficulty understanding the origin of the universe.  In fact, I don’t understand it.  But that doesn’t lead me to postulate a God who created the universe, because that is no explanation at all.  Or rather, it’s an “explanation” in the same sense that postulating Thor is an “explanation” for lightning, or Santa as an “explanation” for all those presents under the tree.  Just because a phenomenon is not understood, does not mean there is some sort of ghost or spirit or god behind it.

Zilch: Not being a scientist, I hesitate to get in to the whole creation argument. I would quickly embarass myself with my scientific ignorance.[...]Surely, if the Bible had been solidly refuted, I would have heard the news?

Do you see the problem here, L4t?  Scientific ignorance, in this case, is the same as not hearing the news.

S-Sadie: you can tell by the way you use your walk, you’re a woman’s man: no time for talk.

Zilch: L4t, that means that God says it’s your responsibility to convert me.
Jesus. I don’t envy you. (mis-quoted)

L4T writes…

I love the example my pastor used. In one of the “Raiders of the Lost Ark�? movies, the main character must literally step out on to thin air…

I’ve been working on a rather lengthy entry for the past couple of years titled “Skepticism" is NOT a four letter word” that talks about how even in non-religious movies our culture still tends to paint faith as more important than knowledge. The example you give from Raiders is a pretty mild example of this.

Another more common example that comes to mind is from the film Dante’s Peak with Pierce “Don’t Call Me Mr. Bond” Brosnan. Pierce plays Dr. Harry Dalton, a volcanologist who can’t shake the feeling that a long-dormant volcano is about to become very active again even though all of the scientific evidence he’s coming across says nothing out of the ordinary is happening. His boss, Paul Dreyfus, spends most of the movie arguing the skeptic’s position that the data says there’s nothing much to worry about and that Harry’s just overreacting. Of course the mountain ends up blowing its top requiring Harry to engage in all manner of ridiculously improbable heroics (he’s apparently able to run alongside a lava flow mere feet away with no special protective clothing without bursting into flames from the heat and drive a truck over molten magma while only losing the tires in the process) while his boss, the nasty old skeptic, dies a horrible death in a pyroclastic cloud for the sin of being a Doubting Thomas. Oh, and the grandmother of the story, who was also a skeptic (though just because she was a stubborn old cow and not a scientist) also dies in an act of redemptive sacrifice by jumping into an acidic lake to pull the leaking boat with her grandkids, daughter, and Dr. Harry to shore. Her sin of being a dumbass being cleansed in the process unlike Harry’s nasty skeptic boss who only manages to get out an “I’m sorry I didn’t believe you” before he’s fried alive.

Hollywood movies engage in these sort anti-skeptic bullshit plot lines all the time. Here’s a hint: Don’t believe everything you see in movies, or read in 2000 year old books.

Out of curiousity, has anyone here ever prayed something like…

Lots of people have. I can tell you that during my crisis of faith I often said prayers along those lines. Repeatedly and sincerely. Near as I can tell they went completely unanswered.

our culture still tends to paint faith as more important than knowledge.

For that matter, why is religious faith considered a virtue?

Elwed, I have no idea. Probably because wishful thinking loves company.

It just occurred to me that it wasn’t Raiders of the Lost Ark that had Indy’s leap of faith in it, but the third movie, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, wherein they’re chasing the Holy Grail.

It’s interesting to note that all of the religious clues in the story were planted in order to get past very real obstacles as opposed to miraculous traps. In fact the only supernatural elements in the film are at the end with the still-living King Arthur guarding the cup, the water from it healing Indy’s father and washing away the bullet wound, and the earthquake caused by trying to leave with it. Everything else, improbable as it may have been, was totally secular in origin up to that point despite the fact that it often appeared supernatural.

Psychomorbidus wrote:

The best belief system to have is your own.

So what happens when your beliefs conflict with someone else’s? Who gets the right of way?

Zilch wrote:

L4t, you piqued my curiosity, so I just now prayed “God, did you send L4t to bring me to Jesus?  If so, make this coin flip come up heads�?
Lo and behold, it came up heads.  L4t, that means that God says it’s your responsibility to bring me to Jesus.  I don’t envy you.

I know you’re only semi-serious. The sense of humor here, I think, is part of why I keep coming back to this den of snakes.

That said, your scenario assumes that God must answer the prayer request within your specific rules of “how the answer must come.”

Rather than shouldering the responsibility for proving God’s existence, I’ll leave that to Him. I’m just one ‘o’ them there witnesses.
I’ve done some back-reading here, and found that many of you have not stated that your athiest position is necesarily fixed/permanent. Les, for example, remains open to the possibility of changeing his beliefs if/when God chooses to reveal himself more conclusively.
It was actually saddening to read Les’s account of “virtually begging” God to reveal Himself during his crisis of faith. I can only conclude (without abandoning my own faith) that:
a) God will reveal Himself to all in time (at least, before the person dies).
b) The only sign God will give is the one He already has - Jesus’ resurrection (the sign of Jonah).
In a mental flight of personal conjecture, I wondered if God is using Les and this blog to sharpen the Faith of His so-called followers, glorify Himself through ultimately showing how He can forgive “even the likes of Les,” and demonstrate that His love knows no bounds. Pure conjecture, that.
This hypothetical situation seems cruel to Les, until I consider the insignificance of Les’s earthly lifetime of spiritual frustration, compared to His eternity of joy.
On another note, I wonder if typical drive-by fundies here consider that Les may just be going to heaven despite his rants? The OSAS (once saved always saved) position would require this.

since Psycho was in agreement with me, I think I’ll step in and say my own personal piece, and he/she can say as it pleases them.

who gets the right of way in who has conflicting beliefs? He who has more power. It’s not a matter of right and wrong, just a reality of the procession. Bush did a lot of shit “wrong”, including leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and perpetuating a massive lie, and he’s enjoyed a lengthly 6 years in office and counting.

The rub behind adopting this as a social tool, as I see it, is in raising oneanother to empower ourselves. Many people are not personally independent, yet nor do they see the advantage in cooperation. As a rule I tend to be paranoid, but the reality is, once you’re in with me, you’re in and I’ll help in whatever ways I can.

I’m curious, L4T, why’d you think the possibility of conflicting beliefs was important?

I’m curious, L4T, why’d you think the possibility of conflicting beliefs was important?

To demonstrate that most people have a set of beliefs that they hold dear. Then the question becomes: Where did we get our sense of values? As you might guess, I’m going to suggest that our shared value system comes from God. If athiests believe there is no god, and thus no final set of moral imperatives, how do they settle disputes? I don’t see any other solution than “survival of the fittest?”

and found that many of you have not stated that your athiest position is necesarily fixed/permanent.

To paraphrase somebody from another forum: I can believe that controlling aliens exist. I could be convinced that a creator exists. Nothing will convince me that the god of any religion could possibly exist.

As opposed to Les, I ditched my religious beliefs, if there ever were any, during second or third grade. After having had a few decades since to think things over, I am as certain as I can be that I won’t catch religion. Short of a personality changing accident or illness, but then it wouldn’t be me…

L4T: I’m going to suggest that our shared value system comes from God.

I seem to recall that adherents of other religions have conflicting claims…

If athiests believe there is no god, and thus no final set of moral imperatives, how do they settle disputes?

Same as everybody else, of course.

Do you know the right answer to every moral dilemma, conceivable or not? Can you list the moral axioms and rules handed to you from your deity and show how your answers are derived from these? Will these answers be consistent and cohere with the world out there?

Here’s something for you to chew on:

“The only absolute truth is change, and death is the only way to stop change. Life is a series of judgements on changing situations, and no ideal, no belief fits every solution. Yet humans need to believe in something beyond themselves. Perhaps all intelligences do. If we do not act on higher motivations, then we can justify any action, no matter how horrible, as necessary for our survival. We are endlessly caught between the need for high moral absolutes - which will fail enough that any absolute can be demonstrated as false - and our tendency for individual judgements to degenerate into self-gratifying and unethical narcissm. Trying to force absolutes on others results in death and destruction, yet failing to act beyond one’s self also leads to death and destruction, generally a lot sooner�?

L.E.Modesitt, Jr., “The Parafaith War�?

I don’t see any other solution than “survival of the fittest?�?

Do you know how much energy it takes for a kangaroo to jump as high and as far as they do? Did you know that if you add it up for each and every jump, you’ll find that kangaroos can’t exist? There’s just no way for them to satisfy their energy demands.

...your scenario assumes that God must answer the prayer request within your specific rules of “how the answer must come.�?

If He doesn’t answer within some rules, how am I supposed to know a) if it’s Him and not just random chance, the Devil, or the CIA, and b) what counts as an answer anyway?  If anything goes, I might just as well say to myself, as Clara Jean Brown must have, “Okay, God exists, and He destroyed my kitchen.  But He didn’t fry me!  It’s a sign- He heard my prayer!” Sorry, I have minimum standards of logic.  If God doesn’t abide by logic, there’s no point in making any statements about Him at all.

If athiests believe there is no god, and thus no final set of moral imperatives, how do they settle disputes? I don’t see any other solution than “survival of the fittest?�?

Elwed has answered this well.  I’ll just add this:

If you don’t see any other possibility than the “survival of the fittest”, there are two possibilities to consider.  One is that you haven’t seen all possible solutions that atheists have come up with, or might come up with.  I’m willing to bet this is the case.  The other is that the atheist’s solution is indeed “the survival of the fittest”, but broadened to include the fitness of the entire biosphere of the Earth, as far as is practicable.  Realizing this solution means living at peace with our fellow beings, as far as we can- in other words, thou shalt not kill, the golden rule, and all those other nifty, pre-Biblical, logical society builders.  Just without the divine carrots and sticks.

Here’s where I’d like to slide in the notion of fitness, L4T, and where I disagree with Elwed’s posted quote, above.

Of course I can justify any action for my own survival - after all, if I die, what do I have left? It should only seem fitting that a God exist, or an afterlife, to limit (and equate) the value of human life. But lets face it, if my life is so endangered that I have to kill everyone in the world to save myself, I’ll gladly place bets that I’ll never get around to wiping out the whole human race. It’s a natural balance of power, although cradled very loosely. In general, it makes more sense and takes less effort to conform to your society and to play the slave of some man so that you are NOT so endangered. Just the consequence of working together, playing a role in a society, that prevents us from those extremes most often. In that way, “fitness” is still displayed (see, it’s not so bad, is it?).

Unless that counts as believing in something beyond myself (society, which I use for my own welfare), I don’t think there’s a need for such beliefs, ethical or otherwise.

I have to admit, though, all this depends on our ability to assess our place in such a world. That’s my catch-all, and you can grill me for it all you like. What I said at the beginning about my life being everything? Try telling that to the suicidal.

Do you know how much energy it takes for a kangaroo to jump as high and as far as they do? Did you know that if you add it up for each and every jump, you’ll find that kangaroos can’t exist? There’s just no way for them to satisfy their energy demands.

Elwed, as you’ve probably heard, bumblebees can’t fly either.  So God must exist, to power up the kangaroos and bumblebees.  But that’s all He does.  Oh wait- He holds the protons and neutrons together in atomic nuclei too- Jack Chick told me so.  But that’s really it.

Sorry, I just remembered- God put together the bacterial flagellum.  Behe said so.  I can’t think of anything else He did.

Oh yeah- He knocked up Mary.  But that’s really it.

Zilch: Oh yeah- He knocked up Mary. But that’s really it.

This one always amused me. Can you imaging it happening today - a girl comes back from the back paddock and says God’s fucked her and she asks her Dad: D’ya think I’m still a virgin?
Yeah.

I don’t know if L4t is still out there, but I couldn’t let this go:

On another note, I wonder if typical drive-by fundies here consider that Les may just be going to heaven despite his rants? The OSAS (once saved always saved) position would require this.

Why didn’t anyone ever tell me about OSAS?  It’s like a bargain basement version of Pascal’s Wager.  Does that mean I could accept Christ, and backslide the very next day, and for the rest of my life wallow in the joys of atheistic partying and sinning, and still go to Heaven? Where do I sign up?

Zilch asked:

Where do I sign up?

Say something like:
“Jesus, I admit I am a sinner, and I accept your sacrifice on the cross for my sins.”
Of course, only God knows the sincerity of your statement.

Does that mean I could accept Christ, and backslide the very next day, and for the rest of my life wallow in the joys of atheistic partying and sinning, and still go to Heaven?

The apostle Paul addressed this very question in Romans 6: 15-23

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As you might imagine, the OSAS vs. OSNAS (Once saved not always saved) is a huge debate amongst Christians themselves. I very much lean toward the OSAS side, but there’s plenty of scripture for both sides.
The debate often takes the form of “Well, if a person backslides that intensely, were they ever really saved to begin with?” Like I say, only God knows one’s heart.
Tom