Les, this is the kind of shit that makes me want to grab the nearest shotgun (which, in a very redneck Hoosier fashion, is less than ten feet away) and run out to do some of my Lord’s work. (Not that I have a lord, but maybe if I claim it in the name of my ‘god’ they’ll give me insanity plea.)

But, in all seriousness, this is fucking disgusting. I had a girlfriend who went to Battle Cry in Detroit, and when she came back and told me about it, I broke up with her on the spot. It horrified me. I told her “If you’re going to be part of some Hitler Youth-esque self-righteous bullshit propaganda like that, you’re definitely not the chick I thought you were.“

Ugh, disgusting. Thats the only word I have right now. Next thing ya know, they’ll be doing the Pledge of Allegiance’s original straight-arm salute.

It appears that the hours-long equivalent of the Two Minute Hate has arrived, and its minions congregated less than an hour’s distance from me. Makes me feel all warm inside. Canada, anyone?

Caution is all I gotta say.  We gotta be careful that we all arn’t painted black and blue by some youth propaganda machine or something.  I found the article to be horribly anti-Bush basised and politically charged.  Don’t really consider that article good journalism in the least.

So I dug deeper (as I always do) and went on their forum boards for the events.  For the most part it was just “yah Jesus” stuff and all love and peace.  However there are alwyas bad apples and with this much “zeal”, fanatics are sure to be around.  Maybe I’m just too kind.  All I can say is that they were quick to damn, very quick.  I say let them go on about the kingdom of God and fighting for it, no worse then what we have already weathered.  This isn’t a religious war, its a culture war and one that has targeted theocracy, not Jesus man.  Aren’t we after the religious nuts, not just the religious.  I say let them rally, but one wrong move and we may come down harder then Robespierre’s Church of Reason during the French Revolution.  Course that is just purly SICK radical there but hey, nuts may bear fruit.  Just wait

If a bunch of folks start killing people to force their agenda on the populace, it won’t be Christianity you’re watching. No more than the crusades were indicative of Jesus’ message. The Jews of Jesus day wanted him to rule by force, but they ignored the “savior must suffer” part. Jesus actually ducked out when they were trying to force him to take the throne.
  Many will claim to be Christians, and act in all sorts of horrible ways. Don’t mistake it for the gospel.
  This Christian (not that I’m the definition of a perfect one) will continue to resort to “violent prayer” and strive for “forceful selflessness.“ Now that’s radical.
  Humans won’t bring on any serious theocracy. Jesus, in fact, steps in before humans wipe themselves out. Strive to do right, but realize we won’t get it right on our own strength. Christians who believe they have the power to bring on armegeddon/prophecy are just as silly as humanists thinking their efforts can create a utopia.

Looking4truth if I had objetions to anything you said (even accepting the truth of the bible, though I do not) it remains that Christianity is a powerful, populated banner for people to rally under. What is “true” Christianity in a day when most proclaimed Christians haven’t even read the Bible well? Certainly, the statistical billions aren’t all true Christians, are they?

Given enough people who endorse you any aspect of a belief can be emboldened, whether it’s accurate or not. And if you fall in with the Christians and they support you as Christians, then you’re effectively a Christian.

Now all they need to do is talk about what you do to prophets of other gods. *shudders* It’s like an episode of the Outer Limits come to life.

arc:

We agree. Even though I vehemently disagree with Les’s spiritual beliefs, I read his blog because he does a great job reporting the nutty behavior of so-called Christians. Heck, I might even (in a strange moment) wonder if Les (and some of the rest of you) are secretly Christians in disguise, with some warped ministry to lead others to a truer faith. BTW, how do I get smilies here. Is that a members-only feature?

Clicking the “Smileys” link just below “Post a comment” will pop up a window full of ‘em

Humans won’t bring on any serious theocracy.

Are you serious?  Afghanistan and Iran come to mind…

This BattleCry shit literally turns my stomach. There are already too many people ready and willing to kill in the name of God, and it is beyond depressing that there are actually adults in the 21st fucking century who are not only stupid/lazy enough to believe this shit, but allow children to be indoctrinated as well.

Truly frightening.

Christians who believe they have the power to bring on armegeddon/prophecy are just as silly as humanists thinking their efforts can create a utopia.

Bush is a Christian, and he has the power to bring on armageddon.  And humanists cannot create utopia.

Of course, one might say that a “true” Christian would not push the button, or go on Crusades, and that WWIII is not Armageddon if it doesn’t fit scripture, but these piddling differences of definition are small comfort to those of us who just want to live and let live.

Humanists cannot create utopia, because utopia cannot exist, any more than Heaven and Hell can exist.  We are social animals, but our genetic predispositions were evolved for life in small roving tribes, not huge well-armed nation-states.  So conflict is built in, and while I’m enough of an optimist to say that a lot of improvement is possible, and desirable, I don’t believe in any perfect society, for the same reason that the lion is not going to lie down with the lamb.

Heck, I might even (in a strange moment) wonder if Les (and some of the rest of you) are secretly Christians in disguise, with some warped ministry to lead others to a truer faith.

I know many believers I admire for their efforts to make the world a better place, and I don’t even need a “strange moment” in which to wonder: I know that there are living and loving human animals in them, who have chosen, for whatever reasons, to express themselves through Christianity.  Or Judaism, or Islam, or Buddhism, or Paganism.  And all ministries are “warped”, including the various flavors of secular humanism, for the same reason that no utopia is possible:  our genetic agenda, and the means we have of accomplishing our ends, have built-in conflicts, and thus are necessarily imperfect, or warped.  That’s the curse, and the glory, of life.

Sorry for the doubledipping, and the linkfrenzy, but this fits in nicely with warped ministries:  Slavoj Zizek wrote a very nice article about atheism, from which I’d like to quote:

During the Seventh Crusade, led by St. Louis, Yves le Breton reported how he once encountered an old woman who wandered down the street with a dish full of fire in her right hand and a bowl full of water in her left hand. Asked why she carried the two bowls, she answered that with the fire she would burn up Paradise until nothing remained of it, and with the water she would put out the fires of Hell until nothing remained of them: “Because I want no one to do good in order to receive the reward of Paradise, or from fear of Hell; but solely out of love for God.“ Today, this properly Christian ethical stance survives mostly in atheism.

Rabbi Avi Shafran replied indignantly, seemingly to illustrate the fact that bigotry is not confined to Christians, and was in turn nicely skewered by PZ Myers at pharyngula.  Highly recommended.  Thanks to elwed at fallacio for bringing this to my attention.

Looking4truth, you’d hit it on the nose with me. I’m a young man who voluntarily (albeit with some psychological circumstance prescribing) entered the Church at the age of ten, after 2 years of attending catechism. Gradually disturbed by the conduct of people “acting in the service of God”, by 17 I was done with Christianity, by 21, as I am now, I’d discarded moral fabric in the traditional, Christian sense (in the notions of free will and upholding of principles of right and wrong).

The tale of Jesus carries a lot of great ideas, and it deserves to be passed on - just as other tales relevant our era are passed on for their messages. There are still useful things to be learned; but just as you have to read the Bible to get the story, so do you have to listen to the world around you to learn about it. Too many “Christians” won’t take time to do the former, much less the latter. Even that said, very little of either Testament is really useful as a standalone as much as it is a single frame of reference for you to appoint a system of morals to guide your life by until you’ve grown enough to decide your own.

Looking4truth, you’d hit it on the nose with me. I’m a young man who voluntarily (albeit with some psychological circumstance prescribing) entered the Church at the age of ten, after 2 years of attending catechism. Gradually disturbed by the conduct of people “acting in the service of God�?, by 17 I was done with Christianity, by 21, as I am now, I’d discarded moral fabric in the traditional, Christian sense (in the notions of free will and upholding of principles of right and wrong).

The tale of Jesus carries a lot of great ideas, and it deserves to be passed on - just as other tales relevant our era are passed on for their messages. There are still useful things to be learned; but just as you have to read the Bible to get the story, so do you have to listen to the world around you to learn about it. Too many “Christians�? won’t take time to do the former, much less the latter. Even that said, very little of either Testament is really useful as a standalone as much as it is a single frame of reference for you to appoint a system of morals to guide your life by until you’ve grown enough to decide your own.

I completely agree with you arc legion.  The best beleif system to have is your own.

Zilch:

  Christians who believe they have the power to bring on armegeddon/prophecy are just as silly as humanists thinking their efforts can create a utopia.

Bush is a Christian, and he has the power to bring on armageddon

John 19:10

10"Do you refuse to speak to me?“ Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?“

11Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.

Don’t fear man (including Bush), but God alone. The fear of God is the beginning of understanding. My point is not that armegeddon is not possible, but that Christians are mis-guided if they think they can bring it on outside God’s timing/will.

our genetic predispositions were evolved for life in small roving tribes, not huge well-armed nation-states.

Is this proven? Sounds more like theory to me. Even if so, what/who is responsible for the original genes?

The fear of God is the beginning of understanding.

No, L4t: dropping the Book and looking around you is the beginning of understanding.

Is this proven? Sounds more like theory to me. Even if so, what/who is responsible for the original genes?

Blogbite version: Evolution.  If you really want to know more about the theory of evolution, which is, like the theory of gravity, amply proven, although not completely understood, check out talkorigins.  For a more Socratic approach, with some entertaining mudslinging, do a search here at SEB on “evolution”.

If you are prepared to do some hard thinking, there’s no story more fascinating than evolution.  If you just want quick answers, stick with religion.

Don’t fear man (including Bush), but God alone. The fear of God is the beginning of understanding.

What zilch said… AND…

While I don’t quite FEAR human beings, I do pay attention to the nutty ones, since I’ve no reason to doubt either their existence or their capacity to hurt their fellow creatures in innumerable ways. However, I’d no more fear God than I would Zeus or the Easter Bunny, because they’re all the same to me.

L4T: The fear of God is the beginning of understanding.

I disagree.
The fear of god is the beginning of a fearful life dogged by ignorance and guilt.
To be brainwashed into loving and respecting an invisible being that you fear is truly, (my vocabulary is obviously inadequate) fucked.

Eric Hoffer: You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you.

Oh, and what Zilch/OB said.

The fear of god is the beginning of a fearful life dogged by ignorance and guilt.

The nice thing is with Christianity, the fear vanishes once you become a believer. The fear alluded to in “The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom” refers to the acknowledgement of sin, which the believer can then let go of once he/she allows Jesus’ sacrifice to cover that sin. Accepting Jesus is the end of that fear, since all of your sin (past, present, future) is then covered.
  Many Christians do struggle with ongoing fear, since even as a Christian, it’s hard to remember the permanence of one’s salvation. Also, the Holy Spirit will convict a Christian if they continue to “grieve the Holy Spirit,“ but that is different from losing one’s salvation.
  I can certainly understand one’s hesitance to even look into Christ if they think becoming a Christian means a life of grovelling, fear, and guilt. Who would want that?
  This also ties in with the wrong assumption that one must become perfect if they accept Christ. Had I believed I would have to drop all my sinning ways on my own will-power alone, I never would have come to Christ. The fact is: attaining any level of ongoing “holiness” is not just difficult for the natural man, but absolutely impossible. Even attempting to be righteous often results in increased sin rather than success. Ever tried to follow the 10 commandments to the letter? Good luck. I had no idea how impossible that would be until I (in my early days as a Christian) tried to stop engaging in a particular sin. My resulting dismay at my dismal failure was only alleviated when my fellow “mature” Christians explained to me the folly of trying to attain righteousness on my own.
  God does not ask us to sign up for a life of self-chastisement, but a life of continually recognizing the all-encompassing salvation that Jesus performed for us, and continually turning to Him for the power to have any victory over sin. 
  Paul chastised some of the Jewish believers of his day for attempting holiness on their own. See Galatians 3, or click here ...

As for the living in ignorance part, well, that’s the natural conclusion for one who has not come to faith. Nobody has accused me of having become an idiot since I came to Christ, and I haven’t suddenly found my I.Q. drop a few points, but that is a common accusation and fear of non-believers.

L4T: The nice thing is with Christianity, the fear vanishes once you become a believer.

From where I’m standing, it appears that fundamentalists lead lives that are based on fear.

The nice thing is with Christianity, the fear vanishes once you become a believer.

The same thing happens when you drink a fifth of tequilla but at least you come to your senses when it wears off…...

L4T: The fact is: attaining any level of ongoing “holiness�? is not just difficult for the natural man, but absolutely impossible.

If you’d said ‘almost impossible’ or variant, I’d have gone along with you.
But ‘absolutely impossible’?
All absolutes are dangerous, including this one.
When I see or hear the word ‘holy’, I think of the current Dalai Lama.
Do you see him as Satan in colourful red and yellow robes?

Ever tried to follow the 10 commandments to the letter?

As you know, there are at least three versions of the 10Cs in the bibble.
I think I know which ten you’re talking about.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3dVpfvDmTKs&search=george Carlin has an interesting take of them. Rather clever I thought and, pretty easy to stick to as well.

From where I’m standing, it appears that fundamentalists lead lives that are based on fear.

Bummer for them. Guess they don’t really understand the faith they claim to have.

The same thing happens when you drink a fifth of tequilla but at least you come to your senses when it wears off…..

And then back to fear? I tried that with weed for years. The problem (as I saw it) was not how the drug made me feel, but the fact that I had to have more and more of the stuff to maintain that feeling. Like in Ecclesiastes, the author does not take the puritan view of “everything that feels good should be shunned,“ but instead reports that such earthly pleasures do not lead to final, ultimate satisfaction.
  Yeah, I’ll admit it. I’m selfish. I want the best. From where I stand, I believe I’ll get the best, but not in this life. There’s no denying it’s a massive gamble. What a wasted life if I’m wrong! What indescribable pleasures await if I’m right.

OB:

  Humans won’t bring on any serious theocracy.

Are you serious?  Afghanistan and Iran come to mind…

I stand corrected. I meant that I don’t believe Christianity will ultimately succeed/prevail by force before the second coming.
  Even Afghanistan and Iran have their Christian/non Muslim populations, but as to the majority, you are certainly correct.
  Anyhow, my statement was sloppy. Thanks for the correction.

And then back to fear?

The point was that the peace or freedom from fear that religion gives you is no more real than the one brought on by booze or mind altering chemicals. It is more dangerous, though, as most people don’t recognize that their belief is nothing more than a self deception, a programmed escape from reality.

Yes, maybe reality does involve a certain amount of fear or disquiet. I’d rather worry about things that really exist than to be soothed by fairy tales.

You are familiar with the expression “Ignorrance is bliss”?

The fear of God is the beginning of understanding.

The nice thing is with Christianity, the fear vanishes once you become a believer.

Isn’t it interesting how differently one can interpret the preceeding statements?

KPG:

It is more dangerous, though, as most people don’t recognize that their belief is nothing more than a self deception, a programmed escape from reality.

Your statement assumes the belief is false. Obviously, I don’t belief it is, or I wouldn’t hold to it. You’re absolutely right that if I’m wrong, the Faith IS dangerous. 1st Corinthians 15:19 -

If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.

L4T- the only reason you are able to type is that the Flying Spagetti Monster lets you.

Really this isn’t an answer - ‘God lets you’.  The usual Christian response- ‘free will’.  What about all the crap that happens that isn’t free will- like the man who had a heart attack while driving- the resultant crash killing his daughter (speaking to the wife was one of the worst phone calls in my professional life).