Atheists are America’s most distrusted minority.

Posted by Les on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 at 02:12 PM. Read 3171 times. Tags:
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Several other blogs have picked up on this and I’m late to the game, but what the hell, I blame it on my WoW addiction.

It’s true, I am the guy your mother warned you about.

According to a new survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology Atheists are considered to be bad, bad people by the majority of Americans:

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

The parents of the first woman I asked to marry me weren’t thrilled with the idea of their daughter marrying an atheist and they worked hard to bring about the end of our relationship once we got engaged. It wasn’t the sole reason our relationship fell apart, but it was a factor in it and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Which is why I was so surprised at how accepting my in-laws are of my unbelief despite the fact that they are a reasonably religious family, certainly more so than my own family ever was.

Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.

Edgell also argues that today’s atheists play the role that Catholics, Jews and communists have played in the past—they offer a symbolic moral boundary to membership in American society. “It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that ‘core’ has historically been religious,” says Edgell. Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.

I’ll give ‘em the materialism and even the cultural elitism, but criminal behavior? Folks, check your prisons and you’ll find the majority of people in there are good old fashioned believers who are supposedly all moral and upstanding thanks to their religious beliefs. Least represented belief group proportionally speaking? Atheists. Must be that cultural elitism making us so damned clever we never get caught or something.

Edgell believes a fear of moral decline and resulting social disorder is behind the findings. “Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong,” she said. “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”

Which is really ironic to me considering that the vary majority of truly apathetic and self-centered people I’ve known in my life have been true believers while the vast majority of people I’ve known that actually gave a damn about the common good were atheists. It’s entirely possible that my personal experiences are different from the norm, but I haven’t any reason to suspect that is the case.

The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one’s exposure to diversity, education and political orientation—with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts.

Being more educated makes you more accepting of other’s differences, or in other words, more liberal?!? GASP! Whodathunkit?

In all seriousness, there’s not a whole lot in this new survey that we atheists haven’t known for a long time already. The archive here at SEB has similar entries about previous surveys/studies that have said the same thing. We already know that an openly gay politician with a felony record and an alcohol problem would still be more likely to be elected to political office than an openly atheist candidate. We are the people you love to hate and that’s likely to stay that way for awhile yet to come. So long as being stupid remains fashionable at least.

Not that I’m complaining as entry into The Evil Atheist Conspiracy gets us these wicked cool black capes and long “Snidely Whiplash” mustaches that we can twirl in a sinister fashion as we cook up our plots to take over the world. 

Comments:

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agog United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 11:30 AM

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The thing that bothers me most about studies such as these is that they interview 2,000 people (who knows where these people are?) and say “most Americans”.  I am originally from the South.  I can completely sympathize with Tina’s position at work.  I worked for a company for 8 years that felt it was OK to pray before luncheons and had a warehouse supervisor who was a “reverend” at his church, and was one of the most intolerant, self-righteous idiots I’d ever met.  I’d been working there about 3 months when he cornered me in the copyroom to ask me if I’d accepted Jesus as my personal savior.  After trying to tactfully remove myself from the conversation, and him not allowing me an out, I finally went back at him with “what in the world makes you think that this is appropriate at work?” When he made a comment about being concerned for my immortal soul, I responded that he wasn’t concerned about me, he was concerned about getting abother conversion under his belt, and exerting power over me by bullying me into the conversation.  We never really got along after that.  Other people at work, who were Christians and knew about me had no problem with my beliefs.
My other problem with studies like these is that I feel they are trying to get the word out that this is how the “majority” feels, possibly in order to allow others to think they are justified in their feelings, which compounds the intolerance.
My answer for the people who ask me about being a good person without religion is, really, who’s the good person?  The person who is good because of threat of punishment, or promise of reward, only, or the person who makes the decision on his or her own to do what he/she thinks is right knowing there is no reward/punishment forthcoming?  Of course, I only bring that out for people who are being passively nasty/condescending instead of asking me in honest curiosity hoping to learn.
I’ve actually referred quite a few people to this site for deeper answers than I can give. So, thanks, Les.
Sorry for the long comment.

Doctor M United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 11:33 AM

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Perhaps if they did some research they could figure out that Anton Levey didn’t even believe in satan existence.

Proper spelling, anyone?
(LaVey, or La Vey)

EyesOnly Great Britain (UK) Posted on 03/30/2006 at 11:50 AM

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Anton Szandor LaVey (born Howard Stanton Levey).

Daryl Cantrell United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 02:50 PM

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Les: The parents of the first woman I asked to marry me weren’t thrilled with the idea of their daughter marrying an atheist and they worked hard to bring about the end of our relationship once we got engaged. It wasn’t the sole reason our relationship fell apart, but it was a factor in it and it left a bad taste in my mouth.

My daughter turned nine months old today.  A problem like this is not going to come up anytime soon, if ever.

However, I have to admit I would do the same thing if she wanted to marry an unbeliever one day.  Not because I personally have anything against atheists and pagans (my daily lunch buddies are a Hindu and an agnostic/lapsed Roman Catholic).  I would try to talk her out of the idea because a Christian marrying an non-Christian is just asking for trouble.

Of course, people are free to make their own mistakes and live with the consequences.  I thought I’d give you the perspective of someone devout and conservative.  Speaking for myself, I wouldn’t marry a non-Christian for the following reasons:

1. Kids. I can’t even imagine trying to raise my kids if my wife were not Christian.  What exactly am I supposed to tell my kids as we’re heading off to Church every Sunday?  “Daddy, you said that Church is the most important thing we do every week.  Why isn’t Mommy coming with us?” “Daddy, you said it’s important for us to pray every day, why doesn’t Mommy pray with us?” “Daddy, why doesn’t Mommy come with us to picket the abortion clinic?  Unborn babies need someone to speak up for them—doesn’t she care?”

Any honest answer I give them is going to cause friction in my marriage.  Inevitably there will be cases where I have to choose between my kids and my faith on the one hand, and my wife on the other.  And the Bible is absolutely clear on this point: Christ comes first, always.  Before children, before parents, before spouse, and before self.

2. Money. Christians are required to provide for the less fortunate.  Liberals and atheists often want the government to sieze their money by force, instead of taking personal responsibility.  What if my wife starts to resent charity as a “Christian tax”?  Or what if she wants to donate to the atheist Red Cross while I prefer the evangelical Samaritans Purse?  What about that money I “waste” every week by putting it in the collection plate?

3. Divorce. Many atheists regard marriage as a temporary way of telling another adult, “I think you’re groovy!” The secular world tells people that if they are unhappy in a marriage, they should walk away.  “Consequences to your children be damned: What’s important is that you are happy.”

Christians are forbidden to divorce.  The Bible tells us that marriage is a promise you make to your spouse, to your children, to your community, and above all to God.  A promise which cannot simply be “set aside” because it is no longer wanted.  So we can see that even the foundation of a mixed marriage is defective: You have two people married, but they don’t even agree on what it means to be married.  I want my daughter to marry a man who understands that when she isn’t quite as young and pretty as she used to be, he still has responsibilities—to her, to my grandchildren, and to God.

4. Kids again. Most unbelievers want few kids, or none at all.  Most liberals will have no kids or one kid.  A few have two kids.  Conservative, religious people overwhelmingly favor large families.  Just speaking for myself, I’d like to have 4-6 kids plus some adoptions.  This isn’t an issue which a couple can compromise on.  You can’t “sort of” have five kids; you either do or you don’t.

5. Where to live. I’d like to live in a socially conservative area.  This makes it easier for my children to grow up around other Christian children.  When it comes time for them to look for husbands and wives, they will need ready access to a large number of other Christians from which to select a spouse.  A non-Christian wife might resent living in the Bible Belt for the sake of my religion.

Those are the reasons that I, personally, would never marry a non-Christian.  Christian love and charity (to say nothing of parental duty) would demand that I make those same arguments to one of my children if he or she were in danger of straying.  But I wouldn’t have to, because God beat me to it:

2 Cor 6: Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

Of course, a lot of atheists think that these issues are “no big deal”.  They wonder why someone would make a fuss about something “unimportant” like religion.  That’s not surprising, because religion is obviously not a big deal to an atheist.  Try to think of it in non-religious terms, and I think you’ll get a clearer picture.  Let’s look at a completely secular example.

Suppose your daughter really, really wanted kids, and told you she was going to marry a man who expressly didn’t want kids and figured she could “bring him around” over time.  I don’t know about you, but I would read her the riot act about how much trouble and heartbreak this would cause her five or ten years down the road.  I would tell her that however nice this man might be, marrying someone who has wildly different goals in life is just asking for trouble.  I would say that she was being dishonest—not only to herself, but also to the man she was marrying.

I would tell her all those things, even if I rather liked the gentleman in question and thought he was a swell guy.  Would you?

Kysstfafm United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 03:38 PM

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Hmmmm....

This makes it easier for my children to grow up around other Christian children.

Would 49 states be enough room for you? Or would you and your brethren insist on occupying all 50? Kinda revealing isn’t it? What about the odd child that - despite being surrounded at all times - doesn’t choose to believe?

Conservative, religious people overwhelmingly favor large families.  Just speaking for myself, I’d like to have 4-6 kids plus some adoptions.

Sounds like (subconciously maybe?) some are planning to win by population what can’t be won by reasoned discourse.

Tina United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 03:47 PM

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I have a different stance on raising children (that is, if DH and I choose to have any) when it comes to religion. I refuse to force any belief from my children. If they want to see what church is all about, I’ll take them and let them form their own opinion. If they want to believe in God, fine. If they want to be buddhists, that’s also fine. What’s important is the thought process behind it. There’s nothing I hate more than blind followers of anything.

Regarding divorce… I don’t even know how to respond to that given the divorce rate among Christians. And christian parental duty? Ha! What a joke! My family is southern baptist/evangelical and both of my parents abandoned me. My grandmother provided food and shelter, but not much more. What about all the neglectful christian parents that would rather do anything other than parent their children? The ones that drop their kids off at the mall, etc. every evening…

No offense, but we must not be living on the same planet.

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 04:12 PM

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Zilch: Being an atheist is no big deal here [Austria].

According to my good friend Pete, who has literally traveled to every corner of the globe over the last five years, Austria is a wonderful place. Pete is gay, and he says that the reception in Austria was very warm nonetheless. He preferred Austria over Hungary and other neighboring countries (though he did love Prague more than Vienna).

I’ll have to check out Austria some time. I’m sure it’s stunningly beautiful (though probably a little chilly for my tastes). I’d love to visit central Europe, having already been to northern Europe several times. Hell, I’d love to travel just about anywhere. When I was sixteen, I really wanted to see Mongolia for some reason. I’ve always loved exoticism.

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Sadie Jane United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 04:21 PM

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Tina [regarding Daryl]: No offense, but we must not be living on the same planet.

Tina, meet Daryl. While Daryl indeed lives on Earth, he definitely resides in a different world than most of us.  rolleyes

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Les United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 04:25 PM

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Wow, Daryl, you’ve demonstrated practically all of the stereotypes about atheists in a single comment. The fundamentalists really got their hooks into you it seems. It’s kind of sad for me to see a mind that I regarded as great be diminished by theistic hogwash.

Not all the reasons you list are bad, having common values and interests is important in a marriage, but the the assumptions you’re basing them on are bigoted at best. For example, I don’t know of any atheists that regard marriage as just a “temporary” thing that you should walk away from if you’re unhappy. In fact, according to a 1999 study by The Barna Group Christians were more likely than non-Christians to get a divorce in America:

    Surprisingly, the Christian denomination whose adherents have the highest likelihood of getting divorced are Baptists. Nationally, 29 percent of all Baptist adults have been divorced. The only Christian group to surpass that level are those associated with non-denominational Protestant churches: 34 percent of those adults have undergone a divorce. Of the nation’s major Christian groups, Catholics and Lutherans have the lowest percentage of divorced individuals (21 percent). People who attend mainline Protestant churches, overall, experience divorce on par with the national average (25 percent).

    Among non-Christian groups the levels vary. Jews, for instance, are among those most likely to divorce (30 percent have), while atheists and agnostics are below the norm (21 percent). Mormons, renowned for their emphasis upon strong families, are no different than the national average (24 percent).
    ...
    These findings were both expected and surprising, according to George Barna, president of the firm that conducted the study. “The national statistics have remained the same for the past half-decade. While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages.”

Christians may be forbidden to divorce, but that doesn’t seem to be stopping them.

It is true that religious people tend to give more money to charity than secular people and that may be because secular folks tend to be more supportive of government programs, but to characterize that as lacking “personal responsibility” is just idiotic:

    Secularists are distinct from religious people in their view on the government’s role in providing social welfare. According to the National Opinion Research Center’s 1996 General Social Survey, secularists support greater public spending for social programs — even if it means higher taxation — at slightly higher rates than religious people do. This support might logically correspond with disfavor for private, charitable alternatives to public-sector social welfare provision. To understand why, consider the attitudes evident in this recent passage from the opinion magazine the Nation: “A program that deals with drug addiction as sinful behavior curable through Bible classes — and much touted by the supporters of faith-based approaches to social problems . . . actually costs more to deliver than conventional drug treatment.� Obviously, the religious person interested in the spiritual needs of a drug addict as well as his or her physical problems will see the efficacy of a faith-based drug rehabilitation program (and hence the need for private charity to the program) differently than the secular person who is interested only in the non-faith outcomes. In effect, neither party is necessarily incorrect. The secularist views fostering the faith of a drug addict as a waste of resources, while the religious person sees it as essential to true rehabilitation. It is hardly surprising that the faith-based approach to combating addiction costs more: It has a bigger task to accomplish. Consequently, the secularist may find a mechanism that does not subsidize any spirituality, such as a government program, to be more effective than a solution based on private giving.

Of course, a lot of atheists think that these issues are “no big dealâ€?.  They wonder why someone would make a fuss about something “unimportantâ€? like religion.  That’s not surprising, because religion is obviously not a big deal to an atheist.

Give me a break. Your average atheists is well aware of just how big a deal your average True Believer considers religion to be—mainly because you folks won’t let a day go by without reminding us how seriously you take that nonsense. There’s no wondering involved, though there may be the occasional amusement or even dismay, but no wondering.

You really need to get out and deal with more atheists it seems.

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Daryl Cantrell United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 04:32 PM

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Kysstfafm: Sounds like (subconciously maybe?) some are planning to win by population what can’t be won by reasoned discourse.

I don’t know if anyone’s “planning” to win anything.  A common misconception on both the left and the right is that there’s a secret cabal of “the other guys” somewhere which meets to set long-term objectives.

However, your basic premise is correct: one reason that liberals are becoming an endangered species is that they simply don’t breed.  Very few liberals have more than two children.  Even at two children per couple, a population group will have negative growth.  At one child, the size of the population will more than cut in half every generation.  Slightly more than two children per couple is called the “replacement birth rate”.  Search through the SEB archives, and you’ll find GeekMom and I have already had this conversation.

The same thing happening to liberals in the US is happening on a titanic scale in ultra-liberal Europe.  Germany, UK, Italy, Spain: All are dying off.  Russia is a basket case with an astounding 3 deaths for every 2 births.  Right now the problem is “manageable” but given their extensive social safety net, everything will implode when the aged start to retire and there aren’t any young workers to keep their country functioning.

It reminds me of something a read about a year back.  An old-line feminist was lamenting that the membership of NOW was getting older every year, and that young women weren’t joining.  I didn’t even know how to respond to her comment.  I guess I’d say this:

“You spend all your days and night disparaging traditional marriage, mocking women who choose to be a mother and raise a family instead of pursuing a career, and demanding a so-called right for your members to kill off any babies which accidentally occupy their womb.  Now you wonder where the next generation of feminists has gone???? I’d start by checking the bio-hazard dumpsters behind your local abortion mill.  You’ll find some of the ‘missing’ younger generation in there..”

Patness Canada Posted on 03/30/2006 at 04:50 PM

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While that’s a funny potshot to abortion, Daryl, the reality (as it’s been in my life, at least) is that feminism in it’s modern form has become a lot more amorphous. There are still the goals of a woman’s liberty, and her equality with men, but there’s a lot less following now that the conflicts are far less apparent.

The next generation of feminists, I would guess, are simply getting on with their lives thanks to the efforts of the previous generation. I know lots of empowered, free, liberated women. I know, perhaps, one that would call herself a feminist. That said, not aborting doesn’t necessarily mean more feminists.

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***Dave United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 05:01 PM

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To address a couple of Daryl’s comments:

I think there are some distinct advantages/conveniences in marrying someone with a similar—not identical—point of view.  There are areas where, as you note, just some problems ("I want kids / I don’t want kids / I’m sure you’ll come around to my view") that *can* be worked through, but that can also cause serious, long-term problems or failure in a relationship.

That said, there are always going to be some differences.  Some of them may be profound. Some of them may not be.  Some can be worked through, or around.

Raising kids is a tough one, if the parents both (a) aren’t on the same page about belief, and (b) aren’t on the same page about how to act that belief out.  Yes, if Daddy wants to go to an abortion clinic protest, and Mommy doesn’t, that can lead to some difficult questions.  (This begs the question as to whether even of Mommy is Christian she’d be out there painting signs and protesting, too, though I suppose that depends on your interpretation of what a Christian is.)

What’s missing from your equation in that case is how the parents *together* decide to present this.  ("Mommy, why does Daddy want to go to picket the abortion clinic?  Women need to be free-doesn’t he care?") The answer is that, even if (especially if) there’s a profound difference of opinion on a moral point, the parents need to work to make sure the kids aren’t taking sides.  Mom needs to be ready to explain her position (and her understanding/respect of Dad’s), and vice-versa.

It’s tough. But it may be necessary.  Sooner or later, unless Mommy and Daddy are in absolute and unnatural lockstep, there will be some significant, even profound, difference of opinion. 

Any honest answer I give them is going to cause friction in my marriage.  Inevitably there will be cases where I have to choose between my kids and my faith on the one hand, and my wife on the other.  And the Bible is absolutely clear on this point: Christ comes first, always.  Before children, before parents, before spouse, and before self.

I understand, and fundamentally agree with what you’re saying.  On the other hand, I think the number of circumstances where it comes down to something that apocalyptic and “Get thee behind me, Honeybun!” are probably very few.

Christians are required to provide for the less fortunate.  Liberals and atheists often want the government to sieze their money by force, instead of taking personal responsibility.

Again, I’d strenously question (a) your setting up “Christians” and “Liberals and atheists” as opposites, (b) your lumping of “Liberals and atheists” together, (c) your characterization of “liberals and atheists” as preferring government seizure of property vs. charitable contributions (or even that the two can’t go hand in hand).

What if my wife starts to resent charity as a “Christian taxâ€??  Or what if she wants to donate to the atheist Red Cross while I prefer the evangelical Samaritans Purse?  What about that money I “wasteâ€? every week by putting it in the collection plate?

What if you think you should give X% and she thinks you should give Y%?  What if she thinks the donations should go to your church and you think they should go to another Christian organization?  What if you think the money is better spent evangelizing the heathen in Eastern Europe and she thinks it’s better spent feeding the homeless here?  What if you think they are better off going to a charity and she thinks she should instead be giving money directly to the poor (e.g., to panhandlers).

You can get into arguments over “providing for the less fortunate” even if you’re both Christian and giving.

Now, if one of you believes that giving to the less fortunate is a moral duty, and the other of you thinks that it simply promotes dependency on largesse, there may be arguments over it.  But that’s not necessarily a Christian vs. Non-Christian argument. 

Divorce. Many atheists regard marriage as a temporary way of telling another adult, “I think you’re groovy!â€? The secular world tells people that if they are unhappy in a marriage, they should walk away.  “Consequences to your children be damned: What’s important is that you are happy.â€?

Christians are forbidden to divorce.  The Bible tells us that marriage is a promise you make to your spouse, to your children, to your community, and above all to God.  A promise which cannot simply be “set asideâ€? because it is no longer wanted.

Again, you can find plenty of Christians who will dispute, morally and sincerely, the issue of divorce.  And you can find plenty of ostensible Christians who will take the very attitude that you attribute to atheists and secularists.

I want my daughter to marry a man who understands that when she isn’t quite as young and pretty as she used to be, he still has responsibilities—to her, to my grandchildren, and to God.

I agree.

4. Kids again. Most unbelievers want few kids, or none at all.  Most liberals will have no kids or one kid.  A few have two kids.  Conservative, religious people overwhelmingly favor large families.  Just speaking for myself, I’d like to have 4-6 kids plus some adoptions.  This isn’t an issue which a couple can compromise on.  You can’t “sort ofâ€? have five kids; you either do or you don’t.

Not necessarily a Christian/Non issue.  I agree, though, that going into marriage there should be some agreement on timing and number of kids.  The “we’ll work it out later” (a/k/a “I’ll get him/her to change their mind and agree with me") approach is fraught with problems, regardless of religious affiliations.

5. Where to live. I’d like to live in a socially conservative area.  This makes it easier for my children to grow up around other Christian children.  When it comes time for them to look for husbands and wives, they will need ready access to a large number of other Christians from which to select a spouse.  A non-Christian wife might resent living in the Bible Belt for the sake of my religion.

Where a family might want, or be willing, to live is certainly also something that transcends religious boundaries and is something that any couple should discuss before marriage.  Especially in the context of an employment market and jobs that might lead to opportunities to live elsewhere.

The assumption that your kids will inevitably court and marry in the same neck of the woods, though, is probably not one you should bet hard money on. They might.  Or they may go off to school somewhere else.

Of course, a lot of atheists think that these issues are “no big dealâ€?.  They wonder why someone would make a fuss about something “unimportantâ€? like religion.  That’s not surprising, because religion is obviously not a big deal to an atheist.

For what it’s worth, I think a lot of atheists (at least those who took their atheism seriously) would have hesitation over marrying a conservative Christian.  And for many of the same reasons.

Kysstfafm United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 05:03 PM

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That said, not aborting doesn’t necessarily mean more feminists.

Possibly. Tempting to simplify things too much (watch out, temptation).

Is it possible that Daryl (just for one on this board) considers the matter closed when the child is raised in a particular home (don’t we all now that every child raised in an environment always stays with that belief system their whole life?)? If those possible humans had been realized wouldn’t they have just as much chance of accepting or rejecting their parents’ beliefs as every other infant in the world?

Mick Australia Posted on 03/30/2006 at 05:15 PM

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Of course, to some True Believers the distinction between atheism and Satanism is nonexistant, or both mindsets are viewed as part of the same continuum.

Technically speaking, LaVeyan Satanists are atheists. Of course you can’t expect most fundies to realise that. They just think all unbelievers follow Satan.

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 05:17 PM

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I wonder how Daryl would square with the fact that I was raised in Kansas--one of the most stiflingly conservative states in the union--and yet I turned out ultra-liberal and non-Christian.

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Kysstfafm United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 05:26 PM

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Interesting, Sadie, good thing you escaped with your capacity intact. Maybe there was some higher power behind that (like God does exist but he isn’t on the side he’s claimed to be on - nah, too unlikely)? I can confirm the stifling atmosphere of the state known as Kansas. And 1967 was an excellent year, child.

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 05:43 PM

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Thanks, Kyss. As traumatic as it was at times, I wouldn’t want to have grown up anywhere else. I got a good sense of what I was not, and that was a very valuable experience. I could not say with any certainty that I would be the same person I am today had I grown up in New York City, for instance.

And yes, the Summer of Love was the greatest! cool smile

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Daryl Cantrell United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 09:41 PM

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Les: In fact, according to a 1999 study by The Barna Group Christians were more likely than non-Christians to get a divorce in America....

I am disappointed, Les.  You are generally a worthy debater, but here you have dragged out the ludicrous and discredited “Barna Study”, propped it up and tried to convince people it’s alive.

That dog just won’t hunt.

For the record, this study asked people their religion, and whether they had ever been divorced.  They were then shocked, shocked! to find that religious and non-religious people are equally likely to be divorced.  This is often held up as evidence that religion doesn’t make you any less likely to divorce, which is complete hogwash.

News flash: Religious people are far more likely to get married in the first place.  This is particularly true of the more conservative denominations like Catholics and Evangelicals.  So even if the same percent of Christians and atheists have been divorced, the fact that Christians are far more likely to marry means that fewer of their marriages end in divorce.

In any case, the benchmark study in this area is the City University of New York’s American Religious Identification Study (PDF file here).  For starters, the CUNY survey is almost 15 times as large (Over 50,000 respondents versus 3,800).

Skip forward to page 27 for the relevant numbers: Amongst adult Catholics, 60% are married while 9% are divorced.  Amongst atheists, just 19% are married while the same 9% are divorced.  The rest is left as an exercise to the reader.

One added note: Christians are even less likely to divorce if they’re married to another Christian, as opposed to struggling to make a “mixed marriage” work.  Which just gets back to what the Bible told us thousands of years ago: Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common?

Les: Not all the reasons you list are bad, having common values and interests is important in a marriage, but the the assumptions you’re basing them on are bigoted at best.

If I came off as bigoted, I didn’t present my case very well.  Let’s try again.

It was not my intention to argue that these are 5 areas where Christians and atheists will never agree.  For example, some atheists are commited in marriage, while some people who call themselves “Christian” will insist that divorce is A-OK—despite the specific, repeated and completely unambiguous teaching of Jesus himself that divorce is never permitted.

Similarly, some atheists give money to charity.  And plenty of pro-life people aren’t religious: In fact, pretty much all of my in-laws are vehemently pro-life, and not a church-goer amongst them.

My intent was to point out areas where having very, very different worldviews would make marriage difficult or impossible.  Having said that, I would add that while some atheists could agree with me on most of these issues, none would escape the problems listed in point number 1: Teaching the kids.

Les, consider an alternate universe where Daryl married someone exactly like my wife, but she wasn’t Christian.  The year: about 2012.  Daryl sits down with his children for weekly home Bible study.  The oldest is 7 years.  Today we’re reading the 25th chapter of Matthew’s Gospel.

Let’s watch.

Daryl: (reading from Matthew 25) When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”
Little One: (raises hand) Daddy?
Daryl: Yes, little one?
Little One: Who are the people on the right?
Daryl: Jesus is talking to His People, the Christians.
Little One: Oh.  Like you and me, but not Mommy.
Daryl: Right.
Little One: That sounds nice.
Daryl: It is very nice.  Ahem.  Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...”
Little One: (worried) Daddy?
Daryl: Yes, little one?
Little One: Won’t Mommy be on the left, with the goats?  She’s not a Christian.
Daryl: That’s right, little one.  Mommy will be with the people on the left.
Little One: But I don’t want Mommy going in the fire with the Devil!!
Daryl: Neither do I, little one.
Little One: Why can’t she be a Christian like us??
Daryl: Mommy is an adult and has to make her own choices.  We live in America, and people can be Christian or not if they choose.
Little One: But Daddy, the lake of fire!!

You get the idea.

You be the judge, Les:

1. Is that conversation fair to my imaginary kids?
2. Is it fair to my imaginary wife?  I’m not exactly badmouthing her, but I do have to be honest with my kids about our Christian faith.
3. Is it fair to me?  At some level, it’s forcing me to choose between my faith and my own flesh (my wife).  Why would I want to put myself in that position?

Regardless of how socially conservative my imaginary atheist wife is, she’s not a Christian.  So the conversation above would happen.  Repeatedly.  Probably every single time I sat down with my kids to read the Bible and talk about what it means to be a Christian, what salvation is, the nature of sin.  Does this seem like a good idea?  If my kids wouldn’t like it, my wife wouldn’t like it, and I wouldn’t like it, how is it a good idea?

***Dave: For what it’s worth, I think a lot of atheists (at least those who took their atheism seriously) would have hesitation over marrying a conservative Christian.  And for many of the same reasons.

Well, now we’re finding common ground ***Dave.

QWERTY United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 10:23 PM

QWERTY pic

Anybody else think that Daryl is a complete fucking nutjob!?

NeonCat United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 10:34 PM

NeonCat pic

Back when I was a young man, my personal belief system was rather closer to fundamentalist Christianity than anything else.  I gladly read Hal Lindsey, etc.  Then, in my early high school years, I encountered people I deeply liked and admired and people I did not like nor admire.  Among those I liked and admired were a Wiccan and an atheist, among those I did not like were many, many Christians.  So I decided that I would rather spend eternity in the lake of fire with my friends than spend eternity in heaven with a bunch of jackasses like Daryl.
I have never found cause to regret this decision.

Indeed, the people I trust most are “feminist, hippie, Pagan/Wiccan, childless-by-choice, bisexual young women” like Sexy Sadie.  But then I guess I’m not in step with mainstream America at all, at all.

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 10:51 PM

Sadie Jane pic

Thank you for the compliment, Neon. grin

Anybody else think that Daryl is a complete fucking nutjob!?

Count me in, Q!  LOL

Seriously, though, Daryl Cantroll strikes me as a misguided and very angry person.

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Thinking is the best way to travel.

Brock United States Posted on 03/30/2006 at 11:26 PM

Brock pic

Daryl makes the all too often made mistake of believing that Christians can be identified in a crowd. It’s a nebulous and inexact method of identification and since GodJesus is the only one who can apply the distinction, studies can’t really matter.

It’s just more examples of his ego-dancing and repressive mimicry.

Daryl, if you raise your kids the way your last pretend conversation suggests you will, they’re going to be getting their little holier-than-thou butts kicked on the playground every day.

I feel sorry for them already.

 Signature 

“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?”
Unknown

Ragman United States Posted on 03/31/2006 at 12:18 AM

Ragman pic

I can pretty much use Daryl’s reasons as to why I wouldn’t marry a religous woman. 

Compatibility is a big factor in marriage.  Religous beliefs, interests, habits… An athiest and a born again Baptist would have problems like a dem marrying a repub, or a slob marrying a clean freak.

zilch Austria Posted on 03/31/2006 at 02:04 AM

zilch pic

Well, my significant other is Catholic, and I’m atheist, and that hasn’t been a problem so far.  Of course, when we’re dead, she’ll be in Heaven and I’ll be in Hell, but we’ll cross that bridge when the time comes. tongue laugh

Daryl a nutjob?  A matter of definition.  I would say that Daryl is an intelligent guy who’s been infected by a virulent meme, one that posits a capricious division of humankind into two categories, saved and unsaved.

Of course, we are all infected by a wide variety of more or less virulent memes.  For instance, one way I divide the world is between people who do, or do not, play Quake III (go ahead and snicker).  But I keep the fragging in cyberspace, and I don’t live there.  The points of intersection between the fantasy world of Q3 and the real world are few and well circumscribed.

But the fantasy worlds of religion, however, are not so circumscribed.  The fragging, and the charity, and the love, and the hatred, inspired by religion, have very real consequences, for believers and nonbelievers, for good and ill.

So is Daryl a nutjob?  Let’s just say he has different filters than some of us.  None of us see the world unfiltered, but we have some choice about which filters we think are the clearest, or the best, or the truest, or the most fun.  Seeing the world through the filter of the Bible puts a different spin on things that seeing it through, say, the Koran, or Finnegan’s Wake.

Daryl chooses to have a filter I view as flawed, because it doesn’t jibe with what I see in the real world.  That is fine with me, as long as he keeps it to himself; and that’s the rub with religion.

Btw- our kids, now 15 and 17, are both atheists.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

zilch Austria Posted on 03/31/2006 at 02:23 AM

zilch pic

Oh, and Sadie- yes, Austria is a nice place to live in lots of ways.  The gay community here is active and pretty well accepted.  The Viennese can be rather aloof, but they are (for the most part) civil and tolerant.

Prague is more beautiful than Vienna because it is better preserved- a poorer country, not as much new construction.  But St. Stephen’s Cathedral is magnificent.

If you’re afraid it will be too cool here, come over in the summer- it’s a lot warmer than SF.  Let me know if you’re coming, and I’ll take you out for a beer or a coffee.

That invitation goes for all of you SEB’s out there- you too, Daryl.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

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