Brandi: You’re missing a few important points.

First and foremost, branding Christians as low-IQ individuals is as reprehensible as the gay-bashing that some self-declared Christians are engaged in. I just don’t want to go there.

Second, it is a meaningless exercise to enumerate brilliant Christians (by whatever definition) unless you can demonstrate that their Christianity is directly responsible for their achievements.

Third, enumerating Christian and non-Christian brilliant people amounts to name-dropping at best.

Randall: Speaking for myself, I am deeply wary of a certain type of self-declared Christian that tries to force their beliefs and morals onto others.

nunyabiz: It’s no skin off my nose if a Christian believes the Genesis to be literally true. All bets are off once they try to impair my religious self-determination, but even then all I want is to be left alone, not to convert them to my point of view. Making broad derogatory statements about Christians per se is not very impressive, by the way.

nunyabiz,,

i just dont have it in me to argue with insanity.

why did you even engague then???  does it get your pants to dancin’ to ridicule the poor pitiful lil low IQ Christians.  Nunya (reminds me of “dubya") if your assumptions/caluculations/theories are true then that means the majority of the population of the U.S. is insane.  Of the 83% of the population that claims to be some form of Christian I would assume that some fell forced to feel that way.  but that would still leave most of our nation deserving of medication and possibly to be institutionalized.

although i disagree with the atheistic view of spirituality (no surprise there) i do not see them as insane or having a low IQ.

Though you may not need medication for you point of view toward The Creator and The Christ (praise the Holy name of Jesus) , you may need a little counseling for your anger issues and view toward the majority of the American population.  Though I doubt you would seek pastoral council, perhaps Dr. PHil has an opening in his schedule.

Yes you are correct, a large percentage of the population of the US is borderline insane.

Of that supposed 80 some odd percent which thankfully is diminishing at approx 1% per year there is only about 30% of those that actually *like you* take the Bible litterly.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

This survey was taken in 1991 and has since dropped considerably since then.
62% “Believe in God and have no doubts”
only 33% “take the Bible litterly” that has dropped to less than 25% today thankfully.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_comp.htm

and BTW the percentage of so called Christians in teh US was at its peak in 1986-1990 which was 86% in the latest poll that percentage was at (from 2001-2004 actually dropped more than the predicted 3%)approx.72% which means today the same poll should put it in the 68% range. and yes many “feel forced to feel that way” least they be judged harshly & looked down upon by their neighbors or relatives so they “go along with it” which is better than causing rifts amongst overtly religious relatives, because we all know how intolerant and hatefull religious people can be.

In other words believe the Earth to be less than 10,000 years old, believe there was some Global flood that eradicated all life on the planet just a few thousand years ago, etc etc.

THAT is insane ramblings there is no other word for it, and yes anyone that thinks this way and believes in such hogwash is obviously mentally ill and suffering from Cognitive Dissonance.

I have no “anger issues” thank you, i certainly wish you no harm in anyway, but wish you and those like you to seek psychiatric help.
There is therapy and medication that can snap you out of that religious stupor you have brainwashed yourself into .

With any luck if current trends stay on course then Atheist will out number Christians by 2040 or so.
That is a VERY good sign for this country, maybe we can pull ourselves out of the darkages and move forward as a nation.

I don’t believe that religious people are insane or stupid.  I believe that there is some very central portion of our psychological makeup which NEEDS to believe in supernatural events and entities, and it is so strongly inborn that most people aren’t even aware that it’s there.

Religion has been responsible for the creation of some of the most brilliant and beautiful art, music and literature in human history.  It has also been the source of some of the vilest, most irrational hatred and violence the world has ever known.  No matter how you slice it, it is a potent force that isn’t going away.

Nunyabiz, would you mind moving over to another bench?  It’s okay with me if you’re an atheist, but I don’t want to be associated with your kind of atheism.

nunyabiz,

from your posts i clearly see how you view me as a person, and i accept your point of view.  In the future please accept the fact that anything I post is not directed toward you.  I do not want to offend your intelligence.

You have a right to your opinion and I will not dispute it, but even if it turned out the bible was a farce, and there is no God, that does not mean that Christians are insane or in need of medical attention.

I was glad that we were able to cross paths though even if it was in posting on this site.

i think you are the atheist my mom warned me about!:)

What Geekmom said. Nunyabiz, you come across as the atheist version of the proselytizing Christians.

I understand nunyabiz’s anger. I think if you’ve been on the hyper-focused receiving end of Christianity’s oxymoronic “we love you but we hate you” kind of wholesale dismissal of other peoples rights and beliefs, you tend to get thin skinned over pretty much everything Christians have to say. I’ve said some mean things myself about Christianity and to some of it’s professed members. I feel if you embrace the tenets you deserve the flak for not being able to apply it rationally to humans.

If it weren’t such a hateful organization, and if more “good Christians” actively and vocally confronted the assholes who have such stentorian voices, I might be more willing to say it isn’t a dangerous organization on the whole.

If you support the bad aspects through tithing, counseling and political actions, you can hardly say you’re well-meant and innocent of hurtful passions and actions.

In case I didn’t make myself clear enough; I’ve gotten so much loving attention from Christians that I’ve taken to carrying a condom with me for them, in case I run into them and they want to have their way with me.

Getting lucky like this I don’t need!

well you can practice whatever form of Atheism you like there “Geekmom” i could careless what you do i speak my mind im a freethinker, i have no ficticous deity to defend or fear.
I base by “knowledge” on logic and reasoning backed by hard evidence, period.

BUT to me when i see someone that “believes” the Earth to be 6000 years old, believes humans lived to be 900 years old, that a Global flood distroyed every living thing on this planet merely 3500 or so years ago, that some omnipotent being spoke a few choice words and created trillions upon trillions of stars, planets, etc etc in 6 days, or hell for that matter 6 million days, that man ever walked with Dinosaurs, and on & on the utter nonsense is endless.

Then YES without any doubt in my mind whatsoever these people are insane & or very ignorant, the information is as clear as can be, the evidence of Evolution & the age of the Earth etc cant be denied “by anyone sane”.
The reason they refuse to accept reality is Cognitive Dissonance which is a mental disorder.

There is no difference at all between Christian fundamentalist/evangelist than other nutcases like “Heavens Gate” thinking you kill yourself so you can hop on the tail of a comet passing by is no more insane, or the Aztecs making 1000s of human sacrifices in order to appease their bloodthirsty God, its all the same.

And Brock is correct Iv about had it with the insanity of Christianity, its extrememly draining to explain what is virtually certain by all accounts as Evolution, age of Earth, the likely hood of some/any god existing etc.
Have Christians completely ignore enormous amounts of evidence that has all but totally been proven beyond any reasonable doubt, then spew in rebuttle total hogwash that is clearly delusional and stand by it as if there is absolutely no other possibility other than “The bible tells me so” while discounting hard tangible facts.

Not only that its not just that they are insane, they are dangerous, and not just to themselves, IF the human race becomes extinct other than the real possibility of a comet or other such thing hitting Earth then it will be because of Religion.

If i ever heard anything from any Christian fundamentalist that made any sense or was based even remotely on anything other than religious dogma where 90% of it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be total BS then i would gladdly listen and debate the issue.
That has never happened yet in over 30 years of debating this subject.

What i stated above im my first couple post Randall didnt understand 1 single word of it, his answers showed that clearly.
Its impossible to debate someone on a “belief” no matter how ludicrous the belief especially if that person refuses to acknowledge strong evidence to the contrary because of their mental disorder (CD)..

I “Believe” aliens are watching us all just outside this solar system and learning english by watching I Love Lucy shows that are just reaching them now.
Now “prove” im wrong!
you cant, as a matter of fact there is more evidence that backs up that therory than there is that backs up Christianity.

ironic,

This thread began with a false report of an atheist in a devil suit proving the false love of Christians (in case your just joining us, see above,,,way above!)

now we are back to more dialogue of… the most evil presence on the face of the earth is Christians.

Nunyabiz, you’re purposely picking the most extreme cases of religious belief to tar the whole group.  I don’t argue that it takes a whole lot of ignorance and a whole lot of willful belief to counter established laws of physics and a very large body of proven science.  But as I mentioned in an earlier post, people pick and choose what they want to believe, and in my experience there are plenty of religious people who, aside from that desire to believe in something bigger than themselves, are intelligent enough to throw out the most improbable, contradictory, and mean-spirited parts of whatever they’re being fed.

At heart, we are ALL subject to being fooled, to deluding ourselves, to picking and choosing what to accept as real.  It takes a lot of education and specific training to teach someone to question EVERYTHING.  In the meantime, we are all of us in danger of buying into the next conspiracy theory, medical recommendation involving avoiding something or having too much of it, or other form of pseudoscientific hysteria.

I know plenty of very intelligent, sensible Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, etc.  If we don’t distinguish between the ignorant, hypocritical, delusional ones and the reasonable ones, we are just as bad as the fundamentalists.

So Nunya, I feel compelled to speak out against ANY kind of fundamentalism, especially if it’s coming from a group I claim nominal membership in.  You’re making the rest of us look bad.  You may have a chip on your shoulder the size of David’s ego, but that doesn’t justify being as bad as the people you’re criticizing.

Just sayin’.

Nunyabiz, I can understand that Brock as a constituent of a Christian focus group - so to speak - is fed up with the lot of them. However, it is not acceptable to tar all members of a ill-defined group of people with the same feather and considering my national background, I have to hold myself to an even higher standard.

Let me express the error of your ways in predicate logic. You say

(there exists)x: P(x) => (for all)x: P(x)

I trust you understand why the above is sort of funny?

What’s funny about the equation for invisibility?

My husband Steve informs me that there was an episode of ‘Jackass” on the other night where one of the regulars dressed in a red devil suit and paraded a sign reading “Get God Out of California” in front of a theater screening… Oh, what else?
He tells me most of the the passersby giggled, including an ancient Mexican-American woman who pointed and laughed, “Ha! El Diablo!” But eventually a noxious overweight blondish guy showed up, went into a screeching fit, and belted the Jackass a couple of times over the hood of a car.
This being ‘Jackass’, after all, the belt-ee raised a fist in victory. 
Good footage reigns supreme.

Life is good… Normal Bob Smith actually dressed up and went to see “The Passion of the Christ!” And took pictures!

His review is here

And I kept waiting for Jesus to teach all of these mo’fo’s a lesson. I was thinkin’ “Oh man, wait’ll they really piss Jesus off! They’re gonna pay for that one!” And then they’d just keep kickin’ and whippin’ Him all over the place… and He didn’t do shit! It was unbelievable! “What the hell is going on?” I yelled! “Do something Jesus! What are you waiting for? Kill them with your powers! What’s wrong with you!?!?”

And he never did crap. He just kept forgiving them and apologizing for them. I’ll warn you now, don’t get popcorn and soda before hand. If anything, bring a box of tissues and a fucking barf bag! You’re gonna need it..

:evillaugh:

Oh and I forgot to add that Bob was not only verbally taunted in the theater, but someone actually threw a Coke at him (and missed).  No Jujubes though. 

(there exist)Christians
(not all) are insane..

approx 2,100,000,000 Christians on the planet
The global average of Christians that take the Bible 100% litterly word for word as absolute truth is approx 28-30%.
So globally lets say there are approx between 500 Million to 700Million “Christians” that are for lack of a better or more discriptive word, “Insane”....well actually now that i think about it an more discriptive word thats closer to a true definition would be “Psychotic” as they are obviously suffering “psychosis”

Yes to “believe” something such as The Bible which is clearly a Fable and no more, and worship this fable, consider every word in it the absolute infallible truth of some magical omnipotent invisible being to the point of brainwashing yourself into a religious stupor til Cognitive Dissonance takes over as your minds defense system, yes I firmly believe they are mentally ill.

Would you consider Jim Jones insane?
David Karesh? Marshall Applewhite? Randall Terry?
Pat Robertson? Jerry Falwell? I could list 100s of lunatics.

Now maybe you dont consider 500-700 Million delusional mentally ill humans roaming the planet with impunity as any sort of problem or need to worry but I do.
Im not concerned about that other 1 1/2 Billion so much, although they are still more likely to support the more delusional ones if push comes to shove.

Now why worry you say about lets see there are approx 235 Million Christians in this country that would mean approx 70 Million or maybe more that fully believe the bible as 100% absolute truth cover to cover, word for word, Creationism, Noah’s flood, etc etc.
K now to me personally 70 Million delusional mentally ill psychotics walking the streets is something to worry about.
Especially when they are doing everything possible to gain political power ie: such psychotics as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Judge Roy Moore which fortuantely have not been able to make it into high political office thankfully, BUT are still a large influence in washington.

Look at the lunatic congressmen, Senators, etc that are desparately trying to pass bills & amendments for the religious right/Christian coalition, trying to have the Ten Commandments placed in every courthouse, prayer in school, make being homosexual an actual crime, trying to rewrite history books, forcing schools to “preach” Creationism and deny “Teaching” evolution and on and on.
Basically turning this nation into a Theocracy.

That does’nt worry you eh? well what does then?

Hisory has a bad habit of repeating itself, im sure i dont need to list the atrocities that Christianity has inflicted upon the human race throughout history, suffice it to say the list is very long and so is the death toll.

There are just as many “Christians” today if not more that fully 100% abide by this fable and worship it as there were 1000 or 2000 years ago, look what those numbers have done for millenia and that Christian today in 2004 has the exact same values, exact same thoughts, exact same ideals, reading the exact same fable, worshiping the exact same invisible deity with the exact same delusional thoughts as Christians did in the year 50AD, 1004, 1804, and today the only thing thats changed is the clothing.

“The mission of the Christian Coalition is simple,” says Pat Robertson. It is “to mobilize Christians—one precinct at a time, one community at a time—until once again we are the head and not the tail, and at the top rather than the bottom of our political system.” Robertson predicts that “the Christian Coalition will be the most powerful political force in America by the end of this decade.” And, “We have enough votes to run this country...and when the people say, ‘We’ve had enough,’ we’re going to take over!"--Pat Robertson

We want...as soon as possible to see a majority of the Republican Party in the hands of pro-family Christians by 1996.” --Pat Robertson, Denver Post, 10/26/92

Now this particular delusional psychotic ran for President, and still is influential in washington.

If you dont find this scarey then i dont know what to tell ya.
I certainly do.

Those who understand that religion and philosophy are exercises in abstraction akin to poetry or art can deal with these issues in a rational manner… they know that abstractions exist within the human mind… but those who wrongly imagine that these internal abstractions are concrete external reality have taken the step over the line into the land of delusion and insanity.” Caroline Evans

This about sums it up, i agree with everything stated in this post:
http://www.skeptictank.org/psycho.htm

Nunyabiz, calling you an atheist bigot would also sum it up.

Yes, is there is reason to be concerned about a certain bunch of narrow-minded, bigotted, jingoistic individuals that hide their personal agenda behind a selective and fundamentalist set of allegedly Christian values. If you’d simply say that organized religion is being used throughout the world as a cover for or even a willful accomplice to a number of Bad Things, probably few posters here would argue. You can even make a case that Christianity has design flaws that lends it more readily to this kind of abuse than other religions. What you say, however, is of the same quality as the nonsense that the e.g. gay bashers spout.

For that matter, did it occur to you that an opening statement of “you’re mentally ill and require treatment” can only result in the further entrenchment of the very people you want to reach?

By the way, has anybody read Philip K. Dick’s “Clans of the Alphane Moon”?

Your entitled to your opinion as am i Elwed.

I call it like i see it period.

What i stated BTW i can back up with polling data and facts as far as percentages.
So 70 Million of “What i call” mental ill is a factual statement, you can choose to bury your head all you like.
and 70 million is bit more than a “certain bunch”
especially when included in that 70 million are zealots that have the ear of over 200 Million over the airwaves.

Now just out of curiosity, what do you call someone that is clearly delusional?
That obviously “believes” a fable that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be false?
That worships this false fable?
That will deny vehemently any evidence that does’nt agree with their delusion?

There are no less than 70 Million loose in the USA alone, and your definition of them would be?

That is the very definition of Psychosis & Cognitive Dissonance.

and im not an Atheist “bigot” i could careless what you are who you are til you clearly show me you are mentally ill, then i come out and call you mentally ill.
I dont believe in the walking on eggshells routene everyone seems to adhere to when talking to religious zealots.
When someone shows me without a doubt they suffer delusions, i dont say oh thats nice, i come right out and say what the evidence shows beyond a reasonable doubt.

That evidence shows that someone that believes in teh Bible 100% word for word cover to cover is delusional, then when they totally deny facts and evidence that is verifiable/falsifiable/repeatable in order to bolster their delusion thats Cognitive Dissonance just as sure as the sun shall rise in the morning.

You and a few others choose to not face the facts, and try and sugar coat it, i choose to face them and call a nut a nut.

you can call me any ol thing you like, meaningless to me.
If calling me a Atheist Bigot makes you feel better about you burying you head in the sand, great glad i could be of assistance.

Meanwhile til i see any proof whatsoever that my views are incorrect then i shall continue to state my opinion exactly as i have been.

Feel free btw to prove to me im wrong, that approx 70+ Million Christians in the USA are’nt delusional, and suffering from either Psychosis and or Cognitive Dissonance.

Nunyabiz,

you make the extraordinary claim that 70+ millions of Americans are mentally ill. The burden of proof is squarely on you and to avoid any misunderstandings, since you specifically use the phrase ‘mentally ill’, you’ll have to support a clinical diagnosis.

You are utterly and even laughably mistaken in your belief that I’m unaware of or ignoring the dangers posed by (purported) Christian fundamentalists. Where I don’t want to go are sweeping generalizations and broad accusations. You, on the other hand, apparently fail to grasp that you appear as fundamentalist as the particular Christians you dislike so much and that your own type of bigotry is counterproductive to your own cause.

You ask:

Now just out of curiosity, what do you call someone that is clearly delusional?

Delusional, of course.

However, I’d guess that 100% of the population are delusional in some way, shape, or form - we all have false beliefs about something, haven’t we? It’s still up to you to prove that the Christian belief in the Genesis is delusional in the clinical sense.

For somebody who doesn’t care what I call him (or her, or them ), don’t you protest a little bit too much?

PS: I find it somewhat ironic that an agnostic defends Christians against an atheist.

OK, I’m way impressed by elwedriddsche and geekmom. I know this means almost nothing to them, coming from me, but I must admit that it never occurred to me that they’d see Nunyabiz the way they seem to. I apologize for the lack of respect that I have given them in my heart, some of which I am sure came through in my postings. I hope you two can forgive me.

Nunyabiz, if English is your primary language, I think it’d be a good idea to drop your IQ argument now. You damage your case every time you post.

In general I do have a problem with calling Christians insane. I’m not going to even try out a definition of insane here, I seem to have a bad rep in that area, so I’ll just ask Nunyabiz to give us one. And by the diagnoses that it keeps giving, I’m going to have to insist it stick to a clinical definition, not a general usage definition.

Next, I’ll point out that saying there are more of these or those that believe in such-n-such proves only that a majority feels a certain way. If that kind of argument were any good at all, we’d not be having this discussion. Majority does not make right. In my earlier post I did not mean to indicate by numbers who had the greater claim, just that their are plenty of PhD’s that are plenty smart and believe in creation. I know plenty of PhDs. I married one. Most of them will admit that creationism takes less faith to believe in than big bang/evolution. But generally it comes down to what your presumptions are. And most believe in some cross between – usually a form of Deism. So answer me this: If there is no creator, why is there something instead of nothing?

There are some folks that are way more clever than I am that I’ve seen debate both sides of this issue (creationism vs. evolution) and I have to say that neither are conclusive, both do an excellent job of explaining most of the facts. But again and again, it comes back to the assumptions they started with heavily influencing the interpretation of the facts they agree on. I usually find folks like Nunyabiz are convinced not because they possess facts I don’t have or I have not considered, but because they are interpreting them in light of assumptions that are unproven (but they feel are self evident). Which in itself is faith. Just not the same thing I have faith in. If there is anything intrinsictly insane about my point of view, such people surely cannot claim to be free of the same sickness.

I was amazed at geekmom’s entry about all of us having an innate desire to believe in the supernatural. I hoping she’ll expand on this and tell us why she thinks that is. What evolutionary purpose could that possibly serve? Or in the Evil Daemon Hypothesis, does she come out believing in the Daemon?

David said: - I usually find folks like Nunyabiz are convinced not because they possess facts I don’t have or I have not considered, but because they are interpreting them in light of assumptions that are unproven (but they feel are self evident).

And how many times have you argued from:
Fear - Gay marriages will be bad for our society.

Prejudice - a child of two people of the same gender would be mocked and ridiculed.

From an appeal to authority?
From an appeal to common belief?
From the straw man fallacy?
How often have you made a statement and failed to assume the burden of proof?

GeekMom and elwedriddsche may be applying reason and attempting to forgo bias, but they hardly deserve your gloating over it.

I seriously doubt that any of your “considered” opinions have been at risk from your visits here, unless you want me to count your new level of respect for GeekMom and elwedriddsche. But then that was totally predictable. 

When you have been shot at by a “good Christian man” whose actions were defended by “good Christian people,” as I was for being a “devil-worshipper” (which is bullshit), or when another “good Christian man” nearly ruins your daughter’s 13th birthday party by standing out in front of your house screaming that you are a “devil-worshipper” (which is bullshit), you might more furiously continue to ask your previous question “what the fuck is wrong with these people?” All it took for the above to occur was the rumor that we were Pagan.
Nunya might have picked the worst cases as examples, but the start of those cases began somewhere, and those of us who have witnessed first-hand the true insanity of religious zealots tend to get a little gun-shy, no pun intended, when we see the seed sewing itself.
Though I can truly relate to the hostility felt toward most Christians and anything they have to say (see Covie posts), I know that hate is not the answer. I don’t have an answer, but I know that isn’t it. I might contradict myself from earlier posts, but lets just say I have seen the error of my ways.

Nunya is also the reason I refuse to accept any label. I do not want the responsibility of representing an entire group, and I do not want just anybody representing me.

I think people are truly scared right now, and I know everyone’s emotions are running high. There is such tension building everywhere, and looking around, we are watching (again) absolute destruction in the name of religion. You have zealot Muslims out to kill as many as possible, and then you have fundamentalist Christians responding with “crusade” mentality. Even though Bush and his like are no longer saying it publicly, I don’t believe for a minute they aren’t still looking at it this way. That’s pretty scary when these two groups believe the world will end with a “holy war,” and now weapons do exist for them to self-fullfill this prophecy (nuclear winter). I know this example is extreme, but I think this has to be in the back’s of minds everywhere. Trickle the bigger picture down to personal experience, such as my own, and you meet people like me whose neck hair is standing on end while watching religion (and the fight against “evil") become the excuse for denying civil rights and due process.
I think it was David who said people are no more clever than they were 3,000 years ago, and I think in this sense, he is right. That leaves only one question - where will this one lead? And I think that is what has everyone on edge, some more than others.

That was supposed to be a parentheses, not a wink.