Atheist Dilemma: Reaching Out to the SEB Community

Posted by Webs on Saturday, November 24, 2007 at 10:09 AM. Read 1411 times. Tags: , , ,
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I’ve always considered myself an Atheist teetering on agnosticism, but never really had a reason to think there might not actually be a God. It was only when I really became interested in Science and the world and less interested in pop-culture that I actually thought about it. That and the death of close friend made me start to think.

I met my girlfriend (now fiance) 5 years ago, before I started thinking more about life and the world. At the time I didn’t really participate in any churches or faiths, I just didn’t really care one way or the other and it never occurred to me I should care or should think about it. Out of respect of my fiance I attended church with her and her family on a few occasions.

The church is a Christian denomination, it’s called Trinity Church, and has a very modern appeal. At first I thought it was a normal church and not much seemed all that bad. Then came the day when the preacher said in his sermon, “Now you have all the other religions and ideas out there. And it’s not that these people are bad or evil, just that they are all wrong and going to hell!”

This was after I had been there 3 or 4 times. I was infuriated at this and really the event for me was a culmination of little things that lead to it. After the service I was driving with my fiance, then girlfriend (this was a couple years ago) and I told her I was upset about what was being said in the sermon. Coming from a Unitarian Universalist (UU) background I was very much against this, besides the obvious wrongs of such a statement.

At the time I remember my fiance stating something to the effect of, “Yes, I know, it upsets me too.” And not much more was really discussed. Then after another problem with the church about a year later I told my fiance, “I am never going to that church again. I really can’t stand what they preach. And to make matters worse they teach this ideology to little children that don’t know any better.” I was very much against what the church was doing and wanted little to do with it. I just couldn’t keep pretending I cared.

We got into a little discussion (well I guess an argument) and she said, “Well they’re Christian! What are they supposed to say!” Referring to me bringing up sermon on everyone else is going to hell from a year ago. I said something to the effect of preaching exclusivity is wrong and it essentially teaches hatred and bigotry. Another important thing to keep in mind here is the story my fiance told me of how the church had a sermon 6 years back (before we hooked up) that on Mother’s day told everyone how Mother’s Day is a day to remember what the Mother has done for the family and to show her love, but it’s still the Mother’s job to cook, clean, and take care of the family. ON MOTHER’S DAY!! I was told this story a few years before this argument.

So anyways, we are getting married and it will be by a UU minister from the local UU church. Which I am happy about because it will cater to both of us. But I am worried about her Christian background and my Atheist background. Not because neither of us couldn’t make it work, but because we haven’t really had a conversation about our beliefs. At least not one that wasn’t started from a fight. My fiance seems to have a harder time than I do at keeping the emotions out of things, and I’m thinking she may not be as moderate of a Christian as I once thought, for as liberal as she is.

So I don’t want to offend her, but I want to talk to her about our beliefs. I want to get it all out on the table and discuss whatever either side wants to discuss. I want her to know that I don’t really care if she believes in God, so long as her faith isn’t hurting herself or others, but I care in the sense that she and her beliefs are important to me. To me our love for each other is and should be stronger than all this. I’m just worried that if we don’t discuss anything now, it might snowball to something worse down the road. Conversely I am worried about what such a conversation could lead to.

So after making you all read this now we get to the important part… Any advice on how to go about this? Has anyone had such a conversation before? If not, have you had a similar one with a sibling, parent or close friend? I am just looking for some tips, because I tend to screw up these types of conversations and this is one I really want to get right… At least as best I can.

If you don’t have any tips but would like to tell a story I would love to read it and maybe others here have a similar dilemma they could use some advice on.

Thanks you to those of you that will leave comments I really truly appreciate it and I will respond as time permits. And thanks Les for giving Atheists a community. This blog has helped me in many ways and really has done a lot for me. I appreciate it. Happy Holidays everyone!

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Bahamat United Kingdom Posted on 11/28/2007 at 07:48 PM

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Webs: I want to get it all out on the table and discuss whatever either side wants to discuss. I want her to know that I don’t really care if she believes in God, so long as her faith isn’t hurting herself or others, but I care in the sense that she and her beliefs are important to me

Then show/tell her these exact words

Also don’t let it get to you if it only ever makes you feel bad. Only challenge each other within the limits of your bond. Maybe invite her to SEB to challenge + get challenged by the rest of us without the blame falling much on you, that maybe we are in a better position to say what you cannot

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

Webs United States Posted on 12/17/2007 at 11:50 AM

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I got the chance to talk to my fiancee last Tuesday. Unfortunately it was on our way back from a funeral for a close friend that died, but at least we had the opportunity to talk. It was hard for both of us this last week and a half, but I think it felt good to talk about these issues for both of us.

The whole conversation started about our friend that died and my fiancee and I were reliving some of the events from the funeral. She told me it was hard for her because she had a near direct line of site with the father of our friend which made it hard for her not to cry. I told her I broke down when the priest was giving me a blessing. I’m not sure what it was but whatever. We weren’t sitting by each other because I was asked to be a Pall Bearer, which also made it hard for us to some respect.

The point of all of this is that this conversation lead to the next. My fiancee stated she wasn’t sure how people got through these types of events without God. I stated there was a flip side to that in that I thought it was fucked up how people could say our friend Maggie died because of God’s plan. To me that’s pretty fucked up. Maggie was the most amazing person I ever met and she died alone, in Nebraska, a place she didn’t even want to move to, by a deranged gunman, before she could say goodbye to the people she loved. What the fuck kind of plan is that?

Anyways, I stated this, but in much kinder words and a softer tone. My fiance didn’t speak for a little bit and I think this statement made her think in a somewhat new way. I proceeded to state that “[...] if there is a God or some kind of omniscience being, I think there is a lot of things that are out of his/her control. What happened to Maggie was not a PLAN, but just a fucked up random occurrence. I think if there is a God it would be like Bruce in ‘Bruce All Mighty’ where Bruce takes over and suddenly he has 5 million emails in a matter of minutes. God unfortunately has to pick and choose and some things are out of his control.”

This all again made her think and for a long time on the ride home we had a wonderful conversation. I told her at some point, it didn’t have to be right that very minute, I wanted to talk a little more in depth on our beliefs. She asked me what specifically and I brought up some of the questions I had and talked to her about my concerns. And we again had a great conversation. No yelling, screaming, fighting, or proselytizing. Just a civilized conversation on the funeral and issues of beliefs.

I made sure to bring up children, as many here suggested, and she was very receptive to my thoughts on the matter. I told her I didn’t want the child to be brought up atheist or religious, but rather be given the opportunity to choose latter in their life. I said I have no problems with the child learning a little bit about such topics, but that I was very much against indoctrination. She already kind of new my stance on this and was fine with that. We both were also okay with our future children going to the UU church, which I think my fiancee will become a happy member of.

So thank you all for your help, and I am glad to report my worries have been swept aside.

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Patness Canada Posted on 12/17/2007 at 11:54 AM

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Good.

Happy holidays to you and yours, then, I hope.

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One sure and primary and fundamental fact is the joint existence of a subject and of its world. The one does not exist without the other. I acquire no understanding of myself except as I take account of objects, of the surroundings. I do not think unless I think of things — and there I find myself. - Bruce Lee

Bahamat United Kingdom Posted on 12/17/2007 at 07:01 PM

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Webs: Maggie was the most amazing person I ever met and she died alone, in Nebraska, a place she didn’t even want to move to, by a deranged gunman, before she could say goodbye to the people she loved. What the fuck kind of plan is that?

An unexpected death can be kinder - the person + family isn’t in mortal fear (at least not for as long) or watching the clock counting down on them, and having to face their agonising families. There isn’t the same mental pain for the victim.

I try to make it so that I don’t have to tell my family I love them, I want them to know that all along

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

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