Death toll is already over 80,000, expected to top 100,000 and that is without considering the possibilty of disease and famine.

I’m curious about where you get the 24000 people number.  I think just about everyone has been saying 40000-80000 for the last day or so.  Although that number is irrelevant since any number is terrible.  I’d like to hope that we’re all dropping money into the Red Cross right now to help people who had little and now have nothing.

Where are all the wealthy American citizens in all of this? The NYT indicated that at this time only 250 million had been pledged ALTOGHETHER so far by all countries in the world. That is a pitiful and disturbing number—to give you some perspective its what ONE F/A 22 fighter jet costs. Where the fuck are the multibillionaires like Bill Gates and the Walton clan—-these capitalist toads wipe thier collective asses with 250 million dollars. Oh, I forgot you have to have a soul and compassion in order to do such things—in the case of the Walton clan they only exploit poor Asians they don’t help them.
Maybe they can finance a cheap products factory in some of the regions struck and the poor homeless people there could work 18 hours a days for a bowl of rice and a sheet of plastic to sleep under—you know a fair Wal-Mart style quid pro quo.
  As far as the earthquake changing the wobble of the Earth. I’ll beleive it only when I know in what direction the change occured. If it was to the right that’s good and beleiveable God is punishing the unbeleiveing heathens in that part of the world. If however it was to the left—-this means that the democrats inspired god to cause the earthquake because they in their heathenistic attitudes have angered God and this is the result. In either case praise Jesus his will be done.

Good rant, Rufus, but just so you know, Bill Gates has already given something like $40b for world health causes - especially the eradication of malaria but others as well.  And his donations come with rather intelligently designed performance requirements so they don’t end up in the pocket of some tyrant. 

I just hate him for his crappy software, but I can’t hate him for his greed.  He’s a top philanthropist.

Wouldn’t be surprised to see him kick in on this as well.  But even if he didn’t, he’s paid his dues in world health and in education too.

Mitch, I took the number I listed from the article I linked to. This week in December is the only real vacation I get every year so when it comes I tend to avoid doing the stuff I normally do every day such as reading or watching the news so I didn’t hear about the tsunami until my Mom mentioned to me. When the TV’s been on it’s either been something I had recorded on the PVR, a DVD I got for Christmas, or a video game I wanted to play. So, needless to say, I’m a little behind on what’s going on in the world.

I’m with DOF about Bill Gates, though. As much as I begrudge his software’s popularity I can’t fault him in his generosity. He is easily one of the more charitable-minded rich guys out there and the amount of time and effort he puts into it makes it clear that this is more than just a tax shelter for him, though I’m sure it doesn’t hurt in that regard either. He doesn’t milk it for PR either so it’s possible he’s already donated or in the process of donating money toward the relief effort.

I concur with DoF. I am no lover of Bill, but he uses his money and charities wisely.

What I find troubling is that we are supposedly trying to win the hearts and minds of the Muslim world… and when a disaster of this size hits the largest Muslim country (Indonesia) our President doesn’t bother to interupt his vacation to speak about it.

All he had to say was something like:

“While no money amount could ever begin to fully rebuild the lives of those effected by the current tragedies, the People of the United States stand with those in need, and our hearts are with them. We do not know what it will cost to rebuild this part of the world, but we will help in every way that our Country can. Money is no object when it comes to aliviating suffering”

See, he wins hearts and minds of a large muslim population, looks Presidential, and actually accomplishes something. One simple statement would have gone A LONG WAY ...

but then we have a chimp who’s vacations are more important than world events for a president :(

I just hate him for his crappy software, but I can’t hate him for his greed.  He’s a top philanthropist.

I agree.

It’s tough for me to even wrap my mind around the thought of 116,000 and counting, dead as a result of this.  I doubt I will ever fully comprehend the magnitude of this disaster unless I go see it up close and personal.  Knowing what happened, how it happened, and seeing the video just isn’t the same as seeing it in person.

Regards,

Hey Les, I just realized your friend Shana (sp?) from Japan was in Bangkok when the Tsunami hit. Anyway, looks like he/she is ok (I was just looking at their website).

Okay, I obviously hit a nerve with you cyber geeks by referencing Bill Gates when I was ranting about stingy American billionaires. Maybe he has been a philanthopical Mother Teresa but what the fuck else is he going to do with 50 or 60 BILLION dollars. That being said how about the other 100 odd American billionaires and the 3.9 million millionaires (Newsweek 03) in our great country. Does it ever occur to any one that if these greedy shits each donated 10000 dollars each that the amount would total almost 40 BILLION DOLLARS and indivually they would’nt even miss this chump change. It’s about scale people. Maybe this is part of the reason so many people the world over are beginning to depise us. Our hubristic greed. I don’t mean the little people of this country like us who I beleive do plenty, but the wealthy among us who would rather amass a pile or buy a Porcshe than help his fellow man or try to make this world a better place to live. I say tax these shits into obilivion so we ALL can live a better RICHER life. Nuf’ said.

Rufus, I have no love for BillTheGates, but he’s the wrong target for your rant, that’s all. 

Trust me, you could redistribute all the wealth in the world, and all you’d accomplish is making the total economy less productive for a while until everyone wised up. 

Whose responsibility is it to make third world societies work?  It’s their responsibility.  The US has schlepped billions of dollars overseas over the years and all it’s done for the most part is enrich tyrants.  The world economy isn’t a zero-sum game where only a few rich countries can exist.  If they want a rich society they have to overthrow their corrupt dictators, focus on education and infrastructure development instead of AK-47’s and RPG’s, and change their laws and constitutions to promote personal liberty, innovation and business. 

Just for example, The Economist magazine found you can’t even get a truckload of beer from the city to rural beer drinkers in many African nations without paying bribes to every two-bit sheriff along the way.  Now imagine building a factory or a road. No wonder their economies don’t work.  We can’t fix that: it’s up to them.

So the inauguration will cost a bundle.  You think that money goes down a rat-hole?  It will wind up in the pockets of service-industry people who need it to pay their mortgages, send their kids to college, and drop a few bucks in the Red Cross bucket.  People like valet parkers, musicians, flower arrangers, cooks, servers, janitors… the list goes on and on. 

I’d like to see our country really pull out the stops to help the (mostly Muslim) victims of this disaster, because it would help build a bridge to the Muslim world.  So we agree on that point.  But redistribution of wealth won’t make the world better.

I realize that my thoughts are socialist, I will be labeled as a commie and this topic is getting way off…uh, topic, but what does that mean “less productive”?

Why is it that we are so fascinated with being over productive , where is this leading? Am I the only person with the foresight to realize that living above our needs, is stressfull, unhealthy and will eventually burn us all out? What happens once we reach our peak productivity?  Are we all just here to work to make the fat cats richer?

Seriously, the capatalist system doesn’t reward the hardest working, smartest individuals; it helps those who already own the wealth. Sure every once in a blue moon, some amazing individual rises to the top effortlessly, striking it rich. However most of these individuals, have already had some assistance, such as being born to a wealthy family, to begin with.

The truth of the matter is, if you were born poor, you are more then likely screwed, and you better off using your brains to leach off iof the capatalist system through corruption, then you are trying to work hard and settle somewhere in the middle.

Whose responsibility is it to make third world societies work?  It’s their responsibility.  The US has schlepped billions of dollars overseas over the years and all it’s done for the most part is enrich tyrants.  The world economy isn’t a zero-sum game where only a few rich countries can exist.  If they want a rich society they have to overthrow their corrupt dictators, focus on education and infrastructure development instead of AK-47’s and RPG’s, and change their laws and constitutions to promote personal liberty, innovation and business.

Actually if you check your history, a lot of these so called tyrants were acutally USofA sponsored individuals that rose to leading their countries: ie. Noriega, Saddam, Ossama (well terrorist, not tyrant, but same idea)...

I realize that you uphold a wonderful ideal, a country that supports freedom, equality and and a chance at being all that you can, this is an ideal that I would support, however it is fictional.

The equality is non existant, you’re only equal if you are white, rich and Christian. Your government panders to corporations at the expense of your personal freedoms. Your average citizens vote means less then what your companies can pay. Your freedom, is a freedom that exists only as long as you are following the majority. The majority seems to be a lot well meaning citizens who are so brainwashed by the lies Fox media tells them, they are willing to believe anything. Everyone else is too scared to question what they are told to believe because they will be labeled as a traitor or a terrorist lover.

You’re right, TeRRoRan, it is off-topic and I apologize to everyone for that.  By “productive” I mean the production of goods and services and the remuneration of those goods and services. 

Why we’re so fascinated by production?  Add “progress” and stir.  If you don’t count modern life as progress, consider the tsunami warning system already in place in our Pacific coastal states.  Or just all the vaccinations you got as a kid.

Actually if you check your history, a lot of these so called tyrants were acutally USofA sponsored individuals that rose to leading their countries: ie. Noriega, Saddam, Ossama (well terrorist, not tyrant, but same idea)...

Yep.  If this is leading to “all the world’s problems are America’s fault” there’s some truth to that. But many more nations got to poverty and corruption the honest way: they did it themselves.  And it isn’t within our power to go fix every country - they have to roll up their sleeves and kick their own bums out.

The truth of the matter is, if you were born poor, you are more then likely screwed, and you better off using your brains to leach off iof the capatalist system through corruption, then you are trying to work hard and settle somewhere in the middle.

This attitude is a recipe for remaining poor.  Working hard won’t make you filthy rich: for that you have to also be brilliant or lucky, preferably both.  But it will usually lift you out of poverty.  If there are strikes against you, it will be necessary to work harder.

The one thing that will hold you back is feeling sorry for yourself because the system is fixed and there isn’t anything you can do.

I realize that you uphold a wonderful ideal, a country that supports freedom, equality and and a chance at being all that you can, this is an ideal that I would support, however it is fictional.

The equality is non existant, you’re only equal if you are white, rich and Christian. Your government panders to corporations at the expense of your personal freedoms.

All true: absolutely correct.  It is a wonderful ideal.  And it is partly fictional but mostly achievable.  A lot has already been achieved but there’s a ways to go.

I don’t equate socialism with communism, BTW.  Under socialism, private property is allowed and individuals can get rich.  Under communism, not.

Sorry about the diversion.  Back on topic: you are right that the US contribution to tsunami relief is small in proportion to our economy.  Here is how it breaks down right now, and if you compare the amount of aid to the size of the respective economies it doesn’t look good for us.  Add the stake each country has in the outcome (winning the hearts & minds, etc. - a rather important PR battle) and it looks worse.

• World Bank $250m
• UK $96m
• EU $44m
• US: $35m
• Canada: $33m
• Japan: $30m
• Australia: $27m
• France: $20.4m
• Denmark: $15.6m
• Saudi Arabia: $10m

So I would like to see us do more.

DoF

Looking at your numbers, I would love to see a further breakdown of the percentage of money that goes IN to the World Bank that originates in the US.

While not direct contributions, AFAIR, the WB gets a good portion of it’s operating capital from the US Treasury ... therefore a good bit of the 250M may be from the US indirectly.

As for the hearts and minds… we are screwed. Giving the appearance, true or not, that the “Leader of the Free World” is more concerned with his vacation than with one of the largest humanitarian disasters on record does not win hearts and minds for us ... nope ... not one bit :(

As for the hearts and minds… we are screwed

Yep.  Happened when we handed the Chimp-In-Chief the keys to the executive washroom again.  I have a sinking feeling that the $35m figure was the first number that popped into his head. 

This wouldn’t be a bad time to do some un-screwing, though, hearts-and-minds wise.  An opportunity, so to speak.

You’re absolutely right about the WB contribution that comes from us.  I also noticed that France (a member of the EU) was giving non-chump-change in spite of presumably having contributed to whatever fund the EU $44m came from.

I think the Canadian donation is closer to 40M$, plus some of the provinces have kicked in additional money (Ontario 5M$).

Why we’re so fascinated by production?  Add “progress�? and stir.  If you don’t count modern life as progress, consider the tsunami warning system already in place in our Pacific coastal states.  Or just all the vaccinations you got as a kid.

I just need to point out the fallacy in this argument. You are implying that progress can therefore only occur under a capatalist system or a system that produces more then it needs. It may be possible that a capatalist system has allowed for some inventions, however I would imagine that something like vaccines were created out of a sense of utilitarianism, not capatalism. One does not devote their lives to the study of a cure for a debilitating disease so that they can become rich. The main point of capitalism is to promote freedom in the sense that one is free to commit greed.

I am not saying it is the worst system, I am just saying that their must exist a better system. However, I am both an idealist and a cynic. I can imagine a world with an equitable system, however I imagine there will always be those who find a way to take advantage of it.

TeRRoRan - the figures I used were from BBC via Reuters and the United Nations as of a few hours ago.  Of course it’s possible the news creatures got it wrong - happens all the time.  But even if so, many other countries’ contributions were plainly much larger than the US expressed as a percentage of their GDP.

As JH pointed out, the $35m figure does not include other channels such as the world bank.

I did not imply that progress can only take place in a capitalist system, only that progress mixed with productivity results in a high standard of living.  Capitalism is rich soil for this combination.

Plainly there are lessons capitalism needs to learn from socialism as some socialist countries have certain QOL aspects better than the US.  (Though the US is not a perfectly capitalistic society either.)  For example, many countries, notably some socialist ones, have lower infant mortality and higher primary education scores than the US does.

As to the possibility of a better world, I certainly can’t argue with you there.

Sorry to double-post but I just found this review of current corporate contributions.  And remember these corporations don’t exist to solve social problems or address disasters; they exist to turn a profit.  Anyway it works out to around $107m from private sources.

I think all our corporations could open up a vein and bleed themselves dry, and it wouldn’t be enough to satisfy some people.  Hating the US is an international pasttime, when imitating the US would get them a lot further down the road.

well 35m as an initial pledge from the US, plus from what I just heard on the news well in excess of over 100m from private & corporate sources in the US & still pouring in, plus whatever portion of the 250m from the Wb, yet it’s never enough is it?

Fact is the USA is damned if they do and damned if they dont, if we gave 500Billion it would make no difference as the beef then would be Oh look at the rich Americans trying to buy the world etc.

Fact of the matter is the USA 99x out of 100 is the first to lend a helping hand to any country in need in whatever way we can, even when the US Gov shuns certain issues, US citizens reach out.

we will always be despised, unfortunately with such acts as allowing this this complete idiot George Dubya Christ back on the throne we have given much of the world excellent reason to now.

For those like Rufus, bout all I can say to tards like that anymore is :FUCK YOU and the Meme infested Donkey you rode in on.

Fact is the USA is damned if they do and damned if they dont, if we gave 500Billion it would make no difference as the beef then would be Oh look at the rich Americans trying to buy the world etc.

Fact of the matter is the USA 99x out of 100 is the first to lend a helping hand to any country in need in whatever way we can, even when the US Gov shuns certain issues, US citizens reach out.

On this we agree Nunya.

I have to disagree with Nunya.  We are not “damned if we do, and damned if we don’t”.  It may seem that way but that is because we don’t when it comes to foreign aid.

The comment made by some UN offical, about the US government being stingy, is right on.  We give the least amount of money per capita when it comes to foreign aid.

I by no means think we should have given 500 billion but a measly 35 million?  And that is only AFTER criticism for given so little.  It was orignally 15 million I believe.

Our foreign aid spending makes up .1 % of our GDP.  That is one-tenth of 1 percent.

Rob- what you said.  We (putting my American hat on for a moment here) are cutting a pretty poor figure internationally, spending zillions on war and a pittance on charity.

DoF said:  Hating the US is an international pasttime, when imitating the US would get them a lot further down the road.

Yes, but down which road?  It depends on what aspects of American “progress” they choose to emulate.

Americans can be justly proud of many things.  For instance, I live in Austria, and am continually struck by the lack of handicapped access to public buildings and even some subway stations we have here- conditions are much better in America (or at least in Berkeley, which my handicapped friends call “crip paradise”).  Not to mention the possibility of transporting a truckload of beer from point A to point B without bribing anyone.  Your criticism of the problems of many third world countries is right on here.

On the other hand, do we really want the whole world to “progress” to the American standard of homelessness, rabid consumption of resources, environmental destruction, and couchpotatoism?  Unfortunately, this seems to be what most people do as soon as they have the wealth to make it possible.

Progress can mean many things, but when it means ever-increasing consumption on a finite planet, the prospects don’t look rosy for our grandkids.

TeRRoRan - the figures I used were from BBC via Reuters and the United Nations as of a few hours ago.  Of course it’s possible the news creatures got it wrong - happens all the time.  But even if so, many other countries’ contributions were plainly much larger than the US expressed as a percentage of their GDP.

I got the donation figures from the CBC site. I am not sure why there is a discrepancy between the two.

Just for the record I would like to say that I do not hate the USA, I like the USA. There are many great people inside your country and as far as neighbours, our countries have worked well together as allies and trading partners for many years.

Of course I don’t care for how any time Canada steps out of line with what the US wants, we get slapped like a little disobedient kid. I also don’t care for your media (with a few exceptions, ie: Law and Order), your Ann Coulters, or your neo-conservative movement. And lastly I don’t care how Americans get so defensive about anything that shows their country as being less then perfect. The rest of the world knows that the USofA is the most powerful and possibly the greatest country, however I like to question preconceptions.

DOF, usually I agree with you on most things, but I don’t see how you can possibly expect downtrodden, poverty-stricken people to overthrow and reform their governments when they can barely feed themselves.  Nobody’s going to be thinking about a model of government when they can’t grow food, can’t read, and are being harrassed, robbed and raped.  They need substantial help, not just the helpful invasion of their country or a political economics lecture.

GM, I am truly sorry to disappoint you.    Your suggestion as to how we get that help to them would be…?

How about sanctions?  Worked great in Cuba. Remember Castro?  Great beard, charismatic. Gone these thirty years now.

I agree they need help to throw out the bums, and the help they need is subversive, sneaky under-handed help.  Problem is, that comes from our official subversive, under-handed sneaky agencies like the CIA, who are famous for “helping” the downtrodden put even worse tyrants in place.

How about just sending shiploads of grain?  Ends up enriching corrupt distributers in the starving country, pricing their local farmers out of business so they’re even less able to produce food, and artificially inflating demand for farmland in this country.

Remember the “Green Revolution?“  That was high technology help, and it really helped without doing much harm - I think.

Private US citizens are allowed to “help” by sending missionaries for some damn reason.  Help like that, they don’t need.

Alternate media in oppressed countries (like the old “radio-free Europe”) is probably as harm-free as any help we could give them.  We should do more of that.

To help without harming is a damnably tough puzzle to solve.

I also don’t care for your media… your Ann Coulters… - TeRRoRan

I hang my head in a moment of silent thankfulness that human cloning has not progressed to the point where we have more than ONE Ann Coulter.