Ideally, i *would* like to see society slowly gravitate to a mode where clothing is uniform, utilitarian --- and all this without force.  In many think-tank circles (the “Theyâ€? that try to propagate such ideals in wider policy circles) have a term for this:
“The Democratization of Clothing.�

Nothing personal, Rob, but I find this statement terrifying. I for one see little positive in such a 1984-ish sentiment.

I for one see little positive in such a 1984-ish sentiment.

Cute idea, wrong species.

mmm....... Dress shirt, dirty, with sleeves rolled up; dress pants, frayed at the knees and scattered with debris; hard leather work shoes, worn through on the inside angles of the soles.

I’ve never met anyone else who enjoyed wearing worn-down dress clothing. Can’t say the same about the shoes.

Even so, I’m not sure that a uniform is what I’m after. Anyone got stats on private schools with uniform standards, or reasons why such statistics might be ineffective in addressing the validity of Rob’s statement? It seems like a cool sorta thing - people dressing how they need to to get about their day, not more.. sort of minimalist, in a sense (or maybe I’m misinterpreting it). I would question whether or not culture would provide the discriminations we avoid. Maybe we won’t discriminate based on dress, then - maybe on blonde hair or a different gait, or based on income or.... I mean, I think there’d be plenty or difference between people that could be used for a basis of discrimination.

The solution is more tolerance, not less self-expression.

Nothing personal, Rob, but I find this statement [The Democratization of Clothing] terrifying. I for one see little positive in such a 1984-ish sentiment.

Yes, yes.  From the looks of your avatar, i can see why you might be terrified.  But, take comfort in the fact that the future has a plan for people like you, too.

Many Westerners (incorrectly) invest considerable effort and fantastic amounts of resources maintaining their physical appearence in the erroneous notion that this, somehow, establishes, maintains, and enhances their individuality.  When, in truth, individuality is a matter of consciousness and intellect.  It is largely grounded in one’s ability to think and exist independently, not some stylish piece of burlap or shiny bling.

Individuality should not be manifested in our physical, superficial attire and appearence. Instead, our ideas, our works, and our play are the proper place for individual expression.

Let’s remember, it is only recently in human history that people started collecting massive ammounts of clothing.  For the most part of history, and for most humans that have lived, the (single piece of) clothing you owned was purely utilitarian.  People who obssessed over their attire and appearance were, widely, considered corrupt.

This bizarre habit of excessive adoration is an aberation of modern human civilization.  And, as we progress and embrace reason (and abandon emotion-based thinking), our clothing shall reflect this evolution of culture and ideals.

In the meantime take note of the fashionable.
They are a temporary historical oddity. And spread the understanding that it is *not* moral to dress like a clown and parade about the marketplace and forum. Dress simply—and with function.

All else is bad, wasted excess.

--

Individuality should not be manifested in our physical, superficial attire and appearence. Instead, our ideas, our works, and our play are the proper place for individual expression.

Rob, in the outside chance you are serious; “bullshit”.  If not; “well played”.

How many humans are remembered beyond 500 years solely for how they dressed?  I can’t think of one.

How many are remembered (and revered) solely for their ideas and creations?  Legion.

In this, i am serious.
History is my witness.

Rob: How many humans are remembered beyond 500 years solely for how they dressed?  I can’t think of one.

Meaning what, Rob - that one shouldn’t do anything unrelated to the opinion that hypothetical historians 500 years from now would have of them?

No one will care tomorrow - or even today - what I had for breakfast this morning.  The choice was entirely for my own reasons.  That was enough.

Hope I didn’t get the breakfast tzar mad at me

I understand where Rob’s coming from, and I do think that to whatever degree, fasihion could be considered excess. That said, I think that reflects the demands of our current social system. Programmers can come to work wearing outright trashy clothing, sometimes - but people who make public appearance are expected to conduct themselves, in dress and otherwise, well at all times. I think fashion is utilitarian, to some extent. Whether or not it is ultimately detrimental, I’m on the fence about that.

Thank you very much for your concern, Rob, but I plan on expressing my individuality in the manners of MY choosing, not yours. This includes not only my “ideas, my works, and my plays” but also how I choose to attire myself. Appearance is an integral aspect of one’s personality. Note that I did not say that it is the sole, or even most important, aspect. However, the way in which we do our hair or dress ourselves often reveals more about us as individuals than do our words or our ideas.

And I regret to inform you that I will have nothing to do with whatever “future plan” you believe that “people like me” will find ourselves confronted with. I am simply myself, and I live my life the way in which I please. If my attire threatens you, then maybe you should reevaluate your own attitudes.

You’ll understand if, based on your comments at this point, I regard you as a little bit of a nutcase.

What is excess?  To a monk with his rice bowl, chanting on a street corner, it would be an egg.  He and I have the same amount, which is to say, everything we want.  For those who always want more, who am I to measure out their journey? Even Buddha was rich in one part of his life, and poor in another.  Could he have achieved enlightenment if he had been born poor?

Mmmmm… Cheerios.

Rob, I apologize if my last comment was harsh, but my sentiment still stands--it is no one’s business how anyone else chooses to dress in public (perhaps aside from wearing nothing at all). You can’t call this a free country if there is a uniform dress code that all citizens are expected to adhere to, regardless of whether or not such a policy is implemented through the use of force. Maybe your point was that in the future this country will NOT be free, and with the direction in which it is currently headed, I would say there is some truth to such a claim (hopefully, the pendulum will swing back to at least moderate before then).

Somehow, though, I have a sneaking suspicion that this was not your point.

By the way, the woman in the avatar is not me. However, I am pleased to tell you that I do dress like her quite often. I enjoy making my own clothes, mostly from colorful hemp products.

well at least my avatar is me! ( )
You might also notice that I ain’t no slave to fashion!

I do not (seriously) advocate forcibly instituting this or that style of attire, or lack there of in the future, nor in the present.  I would never, seriously, support a regime or culture that did so, using force.  Indeed, it won’t be at all necessary to force anyone.  It shall be the logical, reasoned, moral mode of lifestyle for your children’s children.

Its important for us, here and now amongst our mall-central-lives where we pleasure more than labour, to remember that resources shall not always be so plentiful as they are in this special, this truly extra-special era.  We are meta-fortunate to live in this, a bizarrely unique period of time, a profound anomaly of history, where supply and population, globally, are at an extremely favorable ratio—for a large percentage of humans on the planet.

We’re so lucky, and living off the resources of future generations.  How many trashbuckets per-week do you put out on the curb??

Consider yourselves incredibly lucky.  Future generations will look at your lives with utter awe, and severe, furious disdain.  Your children’s children wont have much respect for us.  They’ll see fat, bloated lifestyles, where frugality was not only shunned, but debased.

Read your posts.

As resources dwindle, as supply chains are disrupted by waged-wars-of-need, and as our ecology becomes less stable under the strain of supporting inefficient humans, norms, standards, and what is wrong-n-right shall fundamentally change—forever.  My views will seem conservative-n-tame in comparison to those future-contemporary politics.  Tame.

When that time arrives your children will look back upon our collective history and’ll understand our ancient ancestors’ frugality ---- and their cold, calculated, sterile-like worldview.  And they’ll look at us with even more, academically researched disdain.

Look at the photos of the almost-forgotten American MidWest’s Dustbowl, and you’ll see your children’s children point of view.  You’ll see their eyes and mentality.

Human civilization, under resource-strain, shall be forced to mature, and your children’s children shall look at your fancy-burlap-bling-obessesion with complete incomprehension, and some with hate.  Your excesses will be as understandable to them as are my “nutcase” posts.

And our contemporary dumps shall be their oil fields.

“They were the civilization that cried ‘fun-fun-more-fun-now-dammit!’ --- those crazy arseholes.”

That’s my little prophecy for your mall-lives.

--

And I agree with them. I’ve looked back on the ignorance of my parents generation, and call it for the incredulous argument that it is, but I can’t imagine the people of 2 or 3 generations down not looking at us with disgust and contempt.

I sleep on a broken bed, with a sleeping bag as my blanket, and I keep all of my living goods able to be packed in small enough amounts that a small car will carry my whole household. I own no silverware, only 4 cooking dishes, and I reuse paper plates and plastics until they’re worn. I keep my jugs and bottles as portable containers for my drinks. I have only a weeks worth of clothing, often reworn, and no furniture whatsoever.

My parents, and everyone I meet, insist that I should buy more more more more more, and I’ll agree that having some more, certain things, would be convenient (like a funnel - paper only works for dry things). But they ask this because they live the lifestyle of the consumer, and they want me (for various reasons) to live into the norm. Rob’s prediction may be going out on a limb, but it fits my experiences well. I agree completely.

News at 12:

The potential of amusing and frivolous thread drift reared its beautiful head mid-thread today.  That beutiful creature, thread drift, was laid to rest though.  She was shot repeatedly, and with surprisingly accuracy with guns wielded by a self-proclaimed hippie and what can only be described as doomsday tree hugger.  We shall miss you thread drift.  May you RIP until you raise your frivolous head again.

I find Thread Drift to be quite entertaining. Think how much shorter many of the threads here would be without it.

I suppose we could intentionally lure our friend Thread Drift back into existence by saying something like “I hate mayonnaise. What is your opinion of it?” That would just be silly, though, and it would probably piss Les off.

Alas, until Thread Drift decides to rear her own head again, I’ll simply refer back to the original entry and say that Sultan is right on.

Wafa Sultan: Brother, you can believe in stones, as long as you don’t throw them at me.

WOW!!

K.I.S.S

Any words I’ve added are superfluous.

john

Rob: even in the most conservation-minded culture, conformity of dress has nothing to do with conserving resources.  Witness Sadie’s self-manufacture of clothes from hemp fibre - an ecologically sound product.  And just a friendly tip; using the word “shall” a lot makes you sound like a nutcase.

If your bland jumpsuit is made of cotton, it used far too much water in its production.  If artificial fabrics, then oil. 

Big environmental problems coming up?  Sure.  And it wouldn’t hurt most people to spend less on clothes, but that isn’t a style issue since most of the clothes in their bulging closets look the same.  Their sartorial excesses have more to do with personal insecurity than self-expression. Despite dressing for a professional job, all my clothing fits on about three feet of closet rail and one antique jelly cabinet. 

Consi: Thread drift is not inherently frivolous; it depends on where it drifts to.  Issues of personal freedom, ecology, and historical vs. personal significance aren’t heavy enough for you?

Arc_Legion: Cut the top off a 2-litre bottle.  Voila!  Free funnel!  Return the bottom to the recycle bin from whence it came.  No need to thank me, it’s all in a day’s creativity.

Sadie: I am not fond of mayonnaise, but do use a similar product, Miracle Whip, when making turkey sandwiches after Thanksgiving. 

LuckyJohn19: I agree.  In fact, the whole interview is great and I hope a lot of Islamists can’t get it out of their heads.

Would it be topic drift to discuss the possibility that Muhammed had a type of epilepsy that expresses itself in ecstatic visions?  Islamic scholars dispute this but it would explain a lot and has parallels in other famous religious leaders.

why the hell didn’t I think of that? *smack*

I might add, does anyone have documentation from the era or something similar describing Muhammed as a lunatic, or having lunacy? The behavior we know as epilepsy has been linked to a belief that people were influenced by the cycles of the moon, and there might be other records suggesting the same. I agree that Muhammed seems to display a different type of epilepsy, but it would be interesting to see, all the same.

not only the epilepsy, but we don’t have a copy of the Koran that can be dated back before about 1000 c.e. - three hundred years after the fact. Same as the Bible.
Destroys the “literal word” bullshit.

P.S. After rfeading about Arc Legion I will bet a thousand bucks he lives in B.C.

Personally, I think Rob Adams is the king of Thread Drift. If there’s some out-of-left-field connection to be made to a topic, no matter how innocuous it seems to be at first, he’ll find a way to make it.

His comments always make for… perplexing, but somewhat interesting reading.

Oh my, oh my...
The now quickly aging “Topic Fundamentalists” are marching about, again.

--
Cancel your posts!
Shudder your questioning thoughts!
Stick to the goddamn topic you, you oft-no-oppinion people !
The stability of the web as we know it depends upon it !
Silence is better than these, these evil off-topic-types !
--

And, look, my over-zealous use of the word “shall” was merely my half-hearted attempt to appeal to the “Grammar Fundamentalists”, who occassionally let out their shreeks on this system.

Let me point all you “T & G Fundamentalists” to the to the original post regarding such mentalities; (Hopefully, now the Fundamentalists in our midst are appeased, for at least a few more threads)

;-]