Answers in Genesis indeed…

Posted by Shaye on Friday, October 01, 2004 at 04:30 PM. Read 9012 times. Tags: ,
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A few days ago, I received one of those little books. You know the ones I mean. It said, “What REALLY happened to the Dinosaurs?“ on it. I was intrigued, “Hey, I want to know!“ and I proceeded to read it. I had the best laugh that I’d had in a long while, it was so funny.

It is written by a man named Ken Ham (it’s a very apt name) and he tries to explain the ‘mystery of dinosaurs’ and how their bones just prove creation science even more. I was going to scan the entire 40 page booklet, but I’ll just type out some of the more amusing passages, but I will be scanning the terrible and cartoony images of the dinosaurs, they are just awful.

Mr. Ham begins with, “Dinosaurs are used more than anything else to indoctrinate children and young adults in the idea of millions of years of Earth history. However the Bible gives us a framework for explaining dinosaurs in terms of thousands of years, and solving the mystery of what happened to them.“ Well, I could say this booklet is indoctrinating children and young adults into believing your nonsense, but let’s just read on.

He continues by explaining what those dirty evolutionists think, dinosaurs ‘ruled’ the earth (his exact quote) and somehow for some unbeknownst reason to any scientist they just disappeared 65 million years ago. But wait, no he says, some silly scientists think birds evolved from dinosaurs, why that’s even more absurd than a flying dragon! Or is it?

He says that obviously dinosaurs were created 6,000 years ago, as were all life forms, and that Adam lived in the same time as these (all 600… he actually believes there were 600 ‘kinds’ of dinosaurs) gentle creatures who all ate plants. But wasn’t Tyrannosaurus Rex a carnivore? Well not to worry paleontologists, because Ken Ham says that you really can’t tell what a dinosaur’s teeth say about the eating habits because you can’t even tell what skin color was by bones! He says, “Scientists generally do not dig up a dinosaur with all its flesh intact”, which is true, does this man know anything about real science? So, T-Rex ate plants like all the good animals, until someone sinned and, uh-oh! Here comes that flood.

He also says that of course scientists are wrong about explaining the origins of dinosaurs, simply because they make mistakes all the time. Look at brontosaurus, it was really an Apatosaurus skeleton with an incorrect head and labeled mistakingly. Okay, so he got us there, but science is self-correcting, once new evidence shows up it replaces the old, outdated stuff. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it was wrong, but it was human error in the case of brontosaurus.

So Noah comes, and there’s the flood, but aren’t dinosaurs too big to fit on the ark? No! says Ken Ham, there’s plenty of room on the boat. Remember, out of the 600 ‘kinds’ of dinosaur, only like four or five were actually really big. So the smaller ones got to live, and they went on the art with Noah.

Now he gets really funny. He tries to give examples in the bible where it mentions dinosaurs, he finds ones about sea monsters, and flying monsters and ties those to Mosasaurus and pterodactyls. He references a movie entitled The Great Dinosaur Mystery and explains that in all ancient cultures, they had legends about ‘dinosaur-like’ animals which the called “dragons”. From Gilgamesh (ironic he chooses an epic that a lot of Near East texts are based off of) to a book published in the 1500s, there is evidence that dinosaurs were actually dragons, now gone due to hunting by humans.

He comes back the bones and teeth thing again. “Movies like Jurassic Park and The Lost World portray most dinosaurs as aggressive meat eaters. But the mere presence of sharp teeth does not tell you how an animal behaved, or necessarily what food it ate—only what kind of teeth it had (for ripping food etc.).“ He just obliterated his own statement. Why would a plant eater need sharp teeth for ripping plants? He sites bears as a good example, “bears have teeth similar to a carnivore’s but are mostly vegetarian”. Bears are omnivores, eating whatever they can to survive. A lot of times, plants are more easily accessible than fish, or other meat. He claims that claws and fangs came about because sin was introduced and they are wicked. This guy is nuts.

Ken Ham tries to explain just why it is that dinosaurs can’t be seen anymore even though they were on the ark with Noah, and why people are still so fascinated with these creatures. He blames evolutionists (surprise) as spreading evil evolutionary propaganda to poor, little hapless Christians, who are so gullible they tend to think of dinosaurs as being ‘somewhat mysterious’. He goes on to say, “If you were to ask at the zoo why they have endangered species programs, you would probably get an answer something like this: ‘We’ve lost lots of animals from this Earth. Animals are becoming extinct all the time. Look at all the animals that are gone forever. We need to act to save the animals.‘ If you then asked, ‘Why are animals becoming extinct?‘ you might get an answer like this, ‘It’s obvious! People are killing them; lack of food; man destroying the environment; diseases; genetic problems; catastrophes like floods (HMM CONSPICUOUS!)—there are lots of reasons.‘ Ken Ham has some good examples of why animals start to fall into an extinction vortex, and ultimately end up not existing anymore, perfectly good reasons as to why the dinosaurs might have died off, except the flood one. Now Ken explains quite enthusiastically the real reason that dinos aren’t here anymore. ‘Maybe one of the reasons dinosaurs went extinct is that we didn’t start our endangered species programs early enough!‘ What a moron!

Birdosaurs? Ken Ham tries his best to debunk the theory that some dinosaurs may have evolved into birds. This man, like many others, has such a poor knowledge of how evolution works its appalling. He says dinosaurs and birds aren’t the same, birds are warm-blooded not cold-blooded like a dinosaur would be according to science. “Sadly, the secular media have become so blatant in their anti-Christian stand and pro-evolutionary propaganda that they are bold enough to make such ridiculous statements as, ‘Parrots and hummingbirds are also dinosaurs.‘ I’ve never heard that. I personally do see evidence currently that some species of dinosaurs evolved into birds, what Ken Ham fails to remember is that the Jurassic age was just one of three periods in the Mesozoic era, Cretaceous, Jurassic and Triassic. Each one of those periods is marked by significant extinction, and spanned some 500 millions years, much, much longer than humans have been around.

Ken Ham is a creation science moron, and I find his drivel funny. It’s not funny when people are stupid enough to believe it. Someone from the Answers in Genesis website wrote in about the booklet, “I wanted to thank you for sending me the package of booklets for my office. I put them out yesterday and I saw at least one patient with the ‘Dinosaur’ one in her hand. At the end of the day, the young woman who ‘floats’ on our wing was reading the ‘Does God Exist?’ booklet. She commented, ‘This is really interesting!’ Her name is Laura. I already use the Focus on the Family pamphlets in my office but had never thought of using yours. I plan to keep them in stock. People really like having literature like this in the office and I get lots of comments on them and it opens up lots of avenues for conversation. Thank you again for your ministry and thoughtfulness. — Debbie E., Oregon” How nice… looking around I think more and more that Ken Ham and people like him are retarded, and deserve to go live on the moon.

Comments:

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elwedriddsche United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 03:37 PM

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Okay, a couple of things.

With President Bush and Attorney General Ashcroft, it is ludicrous to claim persecution of Christians in the US.

Next, does any of the links so helpfully provided refer to a more credible example than the Christian interest group championed by Eric? I mean, come on, an intolerant group that aggressively peddles their agenda in a manner calculated to get their fingers slapped?

Finally, there’s little point to engage in proselytizing or answering it.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
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Eric Ragle United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 04:10 PM

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I want to thank everyone for their conversation today. If I was rude I sincerly apologize as I never meant to be.

I wish you all well until next time.

God bless.
Rev. Eric

Zachary Braverman Japan Posted on 10/05/2004 at 06:56 PM

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If Eric is still around I would like to ask him a question:

Jesus never even mentions homosexuals (I believe). However, he does for instance state that divorce is an abomination, or some such awful thing. Sure it does say that homosexuality is a sin in the Old Testament, but you call yourselves Christians so you apparently think what Christ said was more important. If Christ didn’t care enough about homosexuality to ever mention it, but he did explicity say that divorce went against God’s will, why don’t you all protest divorce instead of homosexuality?

How do you justify this to yourselves? I’m genuinely curious.

Eric Ragle United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 09:17 PM

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Well first let me state that homosexuality is mentioned throughout the Bible, though Jesus himself never brought it up.

But before I cite scripture and verse, I want to thank you personally for encouraging discussion in a polite way, it is appreciated.

You have to realize that Bible-believing Christians, (Protestants) believe the entire Bible is the infallible word of God, divinely inspired and written by man. Accuracy has been proven and accepted.

Now, in terms of Christ’s teachings, he spoke on many things and usually condemned or admonished subjects based on when they were presented, not just to be admonishing.

New testament references are abundant, and I assume this was your inference when you mentioned specifically the Old Testament.

The Apostle Paul, writing by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, declares that homosexuality “shall not inherit the kingdom of God” (I Corinthians 6:9; 10). Now Paul does not single out the homosexual as a special offender. He includes fornicators, idolators, adulterers, thieves, covetous persons, drunkards, revilers and extortioners. And then he adds the comment that some of the Christians at Corinth had been delivered from these very practices: “And such were some of you: But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the spirit of our God” (I Corinthians 6:11). All of the sins mentioned in this passage are condemned by God, but just as there was hope in Christ for the Corinthians, so is there hope for all of us.

Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination” (Leviticus 18:22). “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God’s viewpoint nor depart from it.

Now, why don’t we protest divorce? Christians across the world do everyday. Divorce is unfortunately a plague of this society and admittedly does seem to be taken in stride even by what seems like the majority of the Christian voice. How do you protest something that CAN be legitimate according to the Bible though? It boils down to protesting reasons of divorce, not necessarily the act of divorce itself.

Divorce is allowed for cheating. This is justifiable. Jesus brought it up during his time due to some litigating factors. During this time, the men would swap wives like baseball cards without justification. Jesus saw this and spoke about it. Jesus often spoke about circumstances that were going on at that time, so that is an indicator that homosexuality wasn’t a very popular choice back then.

I sincerely hope that answers your question. Please let me know if it doesn’t. Also feel free to email me at christianreport (at) gmail.com

Also, if on the off chance that someone here doesn’t have a gmail account, I’m loaded with invites so feel free to let me know and I’ll send them until I run out.

deadscot United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 10:28 PM

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That’s almost accurate.  To be more precise, Paul in his writings to the Corinthians did not tell them that homosexuals would be prohibited from inheriting the kingdom of God, male prostitutes would be.  The phrase homosexual sort of crept its way into new translations as the years have gone by.  One could almost make an argument from the scripture that prostitution is okay but male prostitution is wrong.

Are far as the old testament is concerned you really can’t have it both ways here.  According to Christianity there was a new covenant established upon Christ’s fulfillment of the prophecy, therefore old testament law had been set aside for the new covenant.

So then the question becomes which laws carry over from old testament to new testament.  As history has shown, those laws have been interpreted to fit the customs of the times.  Christians in 200 AD were still following many old testament laws as was the custom of the day and slowly changed with the periods.

If Christians truly wanted to focus on some of the more pointed words of Christ and the apostles they would chose a life of chastity as advised by both Christ and Paul but it’s so easy to point the finger at others on obscure points.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 12:28 AM

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Y’all realize that homosexuality is okay according to Leviticus as long as you do it standing up…

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 10:00 AM

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Let’s back off the theology for a while.

To the best of my knowledge, Eric’s first post started with

As a self-proclaimed “atheist� (let’s face it, there is no such beast)

I’d call this starting off the wrong foot, to put it mildly. Imagine if you will the kind of reception an atheist would get on a Christian forum when starting out with something like “As a self-proclaimed “Christian” (let’s face it, there is no such beast)“ or simpler, “you just delude yourself that there is a god”...

Eric has made the claim that Christians are persecuted in the US. He still owes us his definition of persecution, documented samples of such persecution, and an argument why these samples match his claim.

I haven’t checked out all the links he posted, but the predominant alleged victims are members of a Christian interest group that push a severely intolerant agenda that further pull publicity stunts that are designed to shock and offend. If I recall correctly, one of the alleged calamities happened because the group’s members defied a court order. In summary, I myself reject these examples.

What I notice in his posts is a typical distorted view of reality. The majority of the US media are pushing a conservative political agenda; after 9/11 the US media volunteered where the media in Nazi Germany had to be compelled. Further, it seems to me that Eric is projecting (Perhaps replacing “politically” with “religiously”):

It’s not about equal rights rather, it’s about YOUR rights and no one else’s unless they agree with you politically or don’t make you feel anymore uncomfortable than your conscience already does.

To make a long story short, where’s the beef? It is an extraordinary claim that Christians are persecuted in the US and thus it requires extraordinary proof. I suspect that some poster upstream nailed it when he or she stated that Eric’s definition of “persecution” and/or “discrimination” is “somebody does not agree with us”.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

GeekMom United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 10:58 AM

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Elwed honey, Eric has already shown that he can believe in imaginary beings and twisted concepts that have no basis in reality.  Why should you be surprised that he also has delusions of persecution? 

Once you start with a completely irrational belief in a god, it’s less likely that you’ll present ANY rational arguments after that.  But you may find yourself the owner of a nice bridge or two ...

Les United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 11:04 AM

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I find it somewhat interesting that half of the examples Eric provides of Christians being persecuted were situations where the Christians were engaging in their own form of persecution. Apparently it’s OK in Eric’s mind for Christians to dish it out, but not take it. Eric also seems to be working from the assumption that the people who he feels were persecuting the Christians in his examples weren’t Christians themselves or at the least were liberals. Personally, I find the claim of Christian persecution difficult to swallow in a nation where Christianity is the dominate religion. 

It’s difficult to decide where to begin with Eric’s arguments as it’s clear that he’s fond of making claims without citing anything to back it up. It’s also clear that he thinks he can show up and make inflammatory statements and then play the role of the victim when people get annoyed with him.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 11:27 AM

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Geekmom: Yes, and no. It’s not that religion and a coherent and consistent worldview are necessarily mutually contradictory, but then again what do you expect of what amounts to a tautology?

Les: Agreed and these points have been made before. I wonder if Eric will be back to further substantiate his claims.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 12:03 PM

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Eric’s claim that the Bible condemns homosexualiy is correct.  The Pentateuch was written by men (!) who were horrified by same-sex for whatever reason, and this is reflected by the writings of Paul, a Pharisaical Jew. 

Jesus never mentioned homosexuality (true) which is interesting as Luke, a Greek physician, would certainly have mentioned it - Greek culture presaging the Mayor of San Francisco by millennia. 

It isn’t helpful to say, “Jesus was only responding to questions” as he was a prolific speaker who would have touched on any topic he thought was important.  Except - the biblical record of his speech is rather like the fossil record of evolution: fragmentary and somewhat dictated by what happened to fall where it would be preserved.  Jesus-quotes in the bible might be thought of as fragmentary fossils of his entire ecology of thought, rather than as a complete record.

He did expound at length on religious rigidity and judgemental attitudes as displeasing to God, however.  Specifically he said that the Pharisaical tradition (of legalistic attention to The Law and the Prophets) was an abomination to God.  He quoted Hosea: “I desire mercy and not sacrifice!“  He said to the woman taken in adultery: “Neither do I condemn you.“  and many more examples.

Question:  Why should it be so damn important what ancient people who worshipped an invisible super-being thought about anything? Other than as history and sociology?  We’re held in thrall to people long dead.  A lot has been learned since then.

Cindi United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 12:10 PM

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We’re held in thrall to people long dead.  A lot has been learned since then.

I’d imagine, Decripit, that people are held in thrall because they need to be told how to think, what to feel, and don’t ever question it.  When you have blind faith in something omnipotent, it takes most of the decision making and responsibility completely out of your hands. “Ignorance is bliss.“

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The stupid!  It burns!!

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 12:20 PM

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I think you nailed it, Cindi.

Les United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 03:14 PM

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Actually it’s been my experience that the reasons why any one individual may believe in a particular religion varies wildly depending on the needs/desires of the person in question. While there are certainly believers out there who fit the description that Cindi provides, there are plenty of others who believe for completely different reasons.  This often will play a role in how liberal or conservative their interpretation of their religious texts tend to be as well.

It’s important that we recognize that the reasons to believe are as varied as the reasons not to believe and that all Christians aren’t the same. This can be easy to forget when dealing with die-hard apologetics, but keep in mind that there are 34,000 different Christian sects out there so it’s a mistake to over-generalize too much.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 03:24 PM

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Les, you’re so darn reasonable. And right, darn it.

C.S. Lewis, in The Screwtape letters, imagined a demon guiding his “patients” to believe that they should believe in something because it is new, modern, courageous, the philosophy of the future, etc.  “You see the little rift?  Believe in this, not because it is true, but for some other reason.“

PenetratingShaftOfTruthAndSemen United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 06:38 PM

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What happened to making fun of the two KH’s?  I want to talk about cool dinosaurs, like the Diplodocus or the badazz mofo dinosaur, Styracosaurus.  There’s alot of spikes on that fucker’s head—-kind of like an evil Coolio dinosaur.  Awesome!  Some dinosaurs look kind of retarded, though—-like the Platosaurus or all those duck-billed freaks.  Dinosaurs that look like ducks aren’t very cool—-kids won’t buy toys that look like those dinosaurs. 

Ken Hamm looks like a freak too.  What’s up with men having beards without mustaches?  I thought only the Amish and Abe Lincoln did that kind of shit.  Abe could get away with it because he was the King of the Earth at the time and was hung like a horse.  A little advice to those with facial hair who want to be cool——if you have a beard, you have to have a mustache—-unless your schlong is huge or you are King of the World.  Ken Hamm, you look so fucking pathetic, i want to take a permanent marker and draw a mustache on your face that will last into eternity.  Jesus is even laughing at the way you look.  Get a fucking clue, guy. 

The guy needs some dermabrasion, too.  There are more pock marks on that guy than on twenty Edward James Olmoses combined.  Maybe his mother should have made sure he didn’t pop his zits all the time as a kid and leave scars.  Not a very christian thing for a mother to do if you ask me.

I am now done spewing my venom like a rabid cobra high on PCP.  Take my words to heart and you will find the truth in them.  Send donations to paypal using my email address as the recipient, thanx.

Zachary Braverman Japan Posted on 10/06/2004 at 07:01 PM

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Cindi:

people are held in thrall because they need to be told how to think, what to feel, and don’t ever question it.  When you have blind faith in something omnipotent, it takes most of the decision making and responsibility completely out of your hands. “Ignorance is bliss.�

GeekMom

Once you start with a completely irrational belief in a god, it’s less likely that you’ll present ANY rational arguments after that.  But you may find yourself the owner of a nice bridge or two

Look, folks. Most of the people on planet earth believe in one religion or another. I don’t happen to, but many of the people I respect do believe in god in some form.

Those who are willing to smugly dismiss billions of people off the bat as deluded, and to pat themselves on the back about how superior they are for not believing in such nonsense, are, to put it mildly, not.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 08:32 PM

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Those who are willing to smugly dismiss billions of people off the bat as deluded, and to pat themselves on the back about how superior they are for not believing in such nonsense, are, to put it mildly, not.

Hold on a minute, Zach - saying someone is deluded isn’t the same as saying they’re bad.  You are making an assumption about someone else’s intentions.  Speaking for myself, I’m not dismissing anyone, though after careful consideration I have dismissed the notion of an invisible super-being.  However…

Religion held the world in its hand for thousands of years, while little progress was made.  Medicine was little better in 1500 AD than it was in 1500 BC, for example, and people who did try to figure things out rationally often found themselves in a lot of trouble.  Religious scientists had to be very careful how they worded their analysis, and non-religious scientists were walking on eggshells.

Science presented a different outlook, that by observation and experiment the answer to almost any question or problem could, in principle, be found.  Quickly following there was germ theory, general anatomy, electricity, electronics, powered machinery, metallurgy, aviation, communication, quantum mechanics, and genetics.  Before long, allergic people will be able to eat a soybean, something all the prayer in the world could never accomplish.

Many, if not most of the scientists and inventors who made these advances were religious people who found a way to integrate the scientific method into their world view.  But for various reasons they either didn’t tackle the god-exist question, or came down on the side of theism.  No problem, but I am free to disagree with anyone on a claim for which no credible evidence exists.

It doesn’t matter how many people say there’s a god, evidence for such a being is harder to come by than a frugal politician. So why do people believe in such?  Some people are intellectually lazy and would like to be told what to think about issues that constitute heavy mental lifting.  Others don’t want to swim upstream, and who can blame them?  And probably lots of other reasons too.  Even the flimsiest of evidence, the most riddled conjecture, seems to be enough.

As for a smug sense of superiority, I found the effort of facing the problems of religion to be excruciating work.  Having done that work, one is entitled to at least a sense of relief.  I attack religion because it seems to be exerting a significant gravitational pull on social policies that are important to me.  Other atheists may have other reasons.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 08:34 PM

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Oh, and what PenShaft said was fucking hilarious!  tongue wink

Zachary Braverman Japan Posted on 10/06/2004 at 08:58 PM

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Decrepit,

I never said that you were making all believers in god bad.

And, you say that “any old reason” seems to be enough to believe in god, and seem to believe that only weak-willed fools do. Then you make a claim to science, as though belief in scientific method and a belief in god are mutually exclusive. They are not. There are plenty of scientists who believe in God. Sure, they may not believe in god the same way as our friend Eric or Ken Ham, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t deeply religious.

Einstein, for instance, that weak-willed puppet of religious authority who was never willing to put together a rational thought in his life (  tongue rolleye ) considered himself a deeply religious man. He knew that science and god were by no means mutually exclusive. For example:

But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe - a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort…

Or

I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals Himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.“

Now, Einstein did not believe in a “personal” god, but he definitely believed in the “holy mystery,“ as did and do many incredibly intelligent people.

So, yes you can point to idiots like Ken Ham. I think people like him are fools as well. However, that’s a straw man argument. There are others out there who are perfectly willing and capable of integrating reasonable science with god, and who have their own original and valid relationship with religion and spirituality.

To paint them all with the same brush as you do Ken Ham not only denigrates them, it makes you totally unconvincing because it shows you are only willing to take on the most foolish and cartoonish believers of religion on in your arguments.

It’s like the Democrats who think that all Republicans are “facist,“ and the Republicans who think all Democrats are “commies.“ Sure, those fringe exist on both sides, but pretending that the entire class is represented by those on the fringes only calls your own intellectual honesty into question.

Zachary Braverman Japan Posted on 10/06/2004 at 09:05 PM

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I didn’t read this sentence of Decrepitoldfool’s post before making my reply, so I might have misrepresented him somewhat. My apologies:

Many, if not most of the scientists and inventors who made these advances were religious people who found a way to integrate the scientific method into their world view. 

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 10/06/2004 at 09:40 PM

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No problem, Zach - I was pretty long-winded.  Please let me try to say it more succinctly: shedding oneself of deeply entrenched religion is hard work and is a task many people - even scientists - prefer not to undertake for whatever reason. 

Religion is in our social upbringing, either that or most Americans are Christian by pure coincidence, and most Iranians are Muslim by a mirror coincidence. 

Anyway, if you want to believe something, any reason at all that seems to support it will be seen in a positive light and may not be examined critically.

NeonExile Great Britain (UK) Posted on 10/06/2004 at 10:54 PM

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Fundamentalist Christianity - fascinating. These people actually believe that the bi…er, the world is twelve thousand years old. Swear to God. What the? Based on what? I asked them.

“Well we looked at all the people in the Bible and we added ‘em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages - twelve thousand years.“

Well, how fucking scientific. Okay. I didn’t know that you’d gone to so much trouble. That’s good. You believe the world’s twelve thousand years old?

“That’s right.“

Okay I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready?

“Uh-huh.“

Dinosaurs. You know the world’s twelve thousand years old and dinosaurs existed. They existed in that time, you’d think it would have been mentioned in the fucking Bible at some point:

“And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus…with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin’: ‘What a big fucking lizard, Lord!‘ But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus’s paw and the big lizard became his friend. And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat fucking families and their fat dollar bills. And O Scotland did praise the Lord: ‘Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord.‘“

Get this, I actually asked one of these guys, OK, Dinosaurs fossils - how does that fit into your scheme of life? Let me sit down and strap in.

He said, “Dinosaur fossils? God put those there to test our faith.“

Thank God I’m strapped in right now here, man. I think God put you here to test my faith, Dude. You believe that?

“Uh-huh.“

Does that trouble anyone here? The idea that God…might be…fuckin’ with our heads? I have trouble sleeping with that knowledge. Some prankster God running around:

“Ho ho ho. We will see who believes in me now, ha ha.“ [mimes God burying fossils] “I am God, I am a prankster. I am killing Me.“

You know, You die and go to St. Peter:

“Did you believe in dinosaurs?“

“Well, yeah. There was fossils everywhere”

Thuh. [Mimes trapdoor opening]

“Aaaaaaargh!“

“You fuckin idiot. Flying lizards. You’re a moron. God was fuckin’ with you!“

“It seemed so plausible, ahhhh!“

“Enjoy the lake of fire, fucker!“

I didn’t say this. It’s an old Bill Hicks routine and I haven’t figured out how to post quotes properly yet. But I felt it was appropriate.

Pop Tarts United States Posted on 10/07/2004 at 01:59 AM

Pop Tarts pic

I have taken a look at the examples eric provided. However, I find the sources questionable. The website WorldNetDaily is not exactly reputable in its news reporting. This is the website that once condemned Harry Potter as promoting witchcraft. And more amazingly, one of its sources for support of that article is from “The Onion” a satirical website. Websites like RepentAmerica, well obviously one knows its goals just by looking at its name.

What this means is that even if the event took place, the websites could be putting spin on it or removing particular incidents so as to cast a more favourable light on their position. An example could be:
“Person hauled away kicking and screaming after telling group he was a jedi. [no reason to use any actual religion and many people have filled out forms with this, or so I heard.]
That by itself seems to be acts that persecute one because one is a jedi.
But what if the article did not report the fact that event took place at a private meeting at a private location and the person was jumping up and down and shouting ‘feel the force’ while thrusting his hip in a provocative manner. And he was hauled away only after he refused to leave peacefully.

Even if the articles are true, you are forgetting about the larger picture. And that is persecution must be looked at society at large. If for example, a country is rounding up everyone who protests, then the mere fact that one person is rounded up when protesting about being a Jedi cannot really be used as an example of the country persecuting Jedi.

What then of the claim that even if everyone else is treated worse one is still persecuted. Well two answers to that 1) Looking at equality of treatment situations. Discrimination is viewed as of according to how ones treat the rest of the people. or 2) Even if they are persucuted, you must make the statement that everyone else is treated less favourably and that while there may be persecution of one group, the persecution of others are more widespread. Failure to mention the persuction of others renders one being liable to telling a half-truth which is no better than an outright lie.

As for the abortion pictures. I recall that many religious groups are complaining about there being too much violence and sex on television. So is it not hyprocritical to claim that abortion pictures which shows gruesome things should be allowed but violence or sex on TV should not be allowed?

Homosexuality:
The quote from Leviticus is questionable. If one accepts that quote, then what about Leviticus comments on how one should not eat shell fish or that slaves are permitted as long as they are from neighbouring countries and not a resident of your country.

Furthermore, Jesus may in fact be a homosexual himself. Was not John THE disciple whom Jesus loved? And did he not lay himself on Jesus’s undergarments. Try doing that when going to date or friend’s home and see what happens. Or perhaps telling your wife/husband I had no sexual relationship with that person, I just like lying on their undergarments.

Jesus never said anything about homosexuality itself and only talked about tolerance. After all he never did marry despite being ‘fully man.‘

He mentioned about being deeply moved by the love between a roman centurian and his servant and their gay relationship. Or what about him saying that “There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him.“ Perhaps he is referring to homosexual acts too.

Pop Tarts United States Posted on 10/07/2004 at 02:03 AM

Pop Tarts pic

Opps, forgot about the thing that I wanted to say when I first say this topic.

The answer to the question is 42. That is where the dinosaurs really come from.

Whoo Hoo, 100th post of the topic.

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