Answers in Genesis indeed…

Posted by Shaye on Friday, October 01, 2004 at 04:30 PM. Read 7571 times. Tags: ,
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A few days ago, I received one of those little books. You know the ones I mean. It said, “What REALLY happened to the Dinosaurs?” on it. I was intrigued, “Hey, I want to know!” and I proceeded to read it. I had the best laugh that I’d had in a long while, it was so funny.

It is written by a man named Ken Ham (it’s a very apt name) and he tries to explain the ‘mystery of dinosaurs’ and how their bones just prove creation science even more. I was going to scan the entire 40 page booklet, but I’ll just type out some of the more amusing passages, but I will be scanning the terrible and cartoony images of the dinosaurs, they are just awful.

Mr. Ham begins with, “Dinosaurs are used more than anything else to indoctrinate children and young adults in the idea of millions of years of Earth history. However the Bible gives us a framework for explaining dinosaurs in terms of thousands of years, and solving the mystery of what happened to them.” Well, I could say this booklet is indoctrinating children and young adults into believing your nonsense, but let’s just read on.

He continues by explaining what those dirty evolutionists think, dinosaurs ‘ruled’ the earth (his exact quote) and somehow for some unbeknownst reason to any scientist they just disappeared 65 million years ago. But wait, no he says, some silly scientists think birds evolved from dinosaurs, why that’s even more absurd than a flying dragon! Or is it?

He says that obviously dinosaurs were created 6,000 years ago, as were all life forms, and that Adam lived in the same time as these (all 600… he actually believes there were 600 ‘kinds’ of dinosaurs) gentle creatures who all ate plants. But wasn’t Tyrannosaurus Rex a carnivore? Well not to worry paleontologists, because Ken Ham says that you really can’t tell what a dinosaur’s teeth say about the eating habits because you can’t even tell what skin color was by bones! He says, “Scientists generally do not dig up a dinosaur with all its flesh intact”, which is true, does this man know anything about real science? So, T-Rex ate plants like all the good animals, until someone sinned and, uh-oh! Here comes that flood.

He also says that of course scientists are wrong about explaining the origins of dinosaurs, simply because they make mistakes all the time. Look at brontosaurus, it was really an Apatosaurus skeleton with an incorrect head and labeled mistakingly. Okay, so he got us there, but science is self-correcting, once new evidence shows up it replaces the old, outdated stuff. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it was wrong, but it was human error in the case of brontosaurus.

So Noah comes, and there’s the flood, but aren’t dinosaurs too big to fit on the ark? No! says Ken Ham, there’s plenty of room on the boat. Remember, out of the 600 ‘kinds’ of dinosaur, only like four or five were actually really big. So the smaller ones got to live, and they went on the art with Noah.

Now he gets really funny. He tries to give examples in the bible where it mentions dinosaurs, he finds ones about sea monsters, and flying monsters and ties those to Mosasaurus and pterodactyls. He references a movie entitled The Great Dinosaur Mystery and explains that in all ancient cultures, they had legends about ‘dinosaur-like’ animals which the called “dragons”. From Gilgamesh (ironic he chooses an epic that a lot of Near East texts are based off of) to a book published in the 1500s, there is evidence that dinosaurs were actually dragons, now gone due to hunting by humans.

He comes back the bones and teeth thing again. “Movies like Jurassic Park and The Lost World portray most dinosaurs as aggressive meat eaters. But the mere presence of sharp teeth does not tell you how an animal behaved, or necessarily what food it ate--only what kind of teeth it had (for ripping food etc.).” He just obliterated his own statement. Why would a plant eater need sharp teeth for ripping plants? He sites bears as a good example, “bears have teeth similar to a carnivore’s but are mostly vegetarian”. Bears are omnivores, eating whatever they can to survive. A lot of times, plants are more easily accessible than fish, or other meat. He claims that claws and fangs came about because sin was introduced and they are wicked. This guy is nuts.

Ken Ham tries to explain just why it is that dinosaurs can’t be seen anymore even though they were on the ark with Noah, and why people are still so fascinated with these creatures. He blames evolutionists (surprise) as spreading evil evolutionary propaganda to poor, little hapless Christians, who are so gullible they tend to think of dinosaurs as being ‘somewhat mysterious’. He goes on to say, “If you were to ask at the zoo why they have endangered species programs, you would probably get an answer something like this: ‘We’ve lost lots of animals from this Earth. Animals are becoming extinct all the time. Look at all the animals that are gone forever. We need to act to save the animals.’ If you then asked, ‘Why are animals becoming extinct?’ you might get an answer like this, ‘It’s obvious! People are killing them; lack of food; man destroying the environment; diseases; genetic problems; catastrophes like floods (HMM CONSPICUOUS!)-- there are lots of reasons.’ Ken Ham has some good examples of why animals start to fall into an extinction vortex, and ultimately end up not existing anymore, perfectly good reasons as to why the dinosaurs might have died off, except the flood one. Now Ken explains quite enthusiastically the real reason that dinos aren’t here anymore. ‘Maybe one of the reasons dinosaurs went extinct is that we didn’t start our endangered species programs early enough!’ What a moron!

Birdosaurs? Ken Ham tries his best to debunk the theory that some dinosaurs may have evolved into birds. This man, like many others, has such a poor knowledge of how evolution works its appalling. He says dinosaurs and birds aren’t the same, birds are warm-blooded not cold-blooded like a dinosaur would be according to science. “Sadly, the secular media have become so blatant in their anti-Christian stand and pro-evolutionary propaganda that they are bold enough to make such ridiculous statements as, ‘Parrots and hummingbirds are also dinosaurs.’ I’ve never heard that. I personally do see evidence currently that some species of dinosaurs evolved into birds, what Ken Ham fails to remember is that the Jurassic age was just one of three periods in the Mesozoic era, Cretaceous, Jurassic and Triassic. Each one of those periods is marked by significant extinction, and spanned some 500 millions years, much, much longer than humans have been around.

Ken Ham is a creation science moron, and I find his drivel funny. It’s not funny when people are stupid enough to believe it. Someone from the Answers in Genesis website wrote in about the booklet, “I wanted to thank you for sending me the package of booklets for my office. I put them out yesterday and I saw at least one patient with the ‘Dinosaur’ one in her hand. At the end of the day, the young woman who ‘floats’ on our wing was reading the ‘Does God Exist?’ booklet. She commented, ‘This is really interesting!’ Her name is Laura. I already use the Focus on the Family pamphlets in my office but had never thought of using yours. I plan to keep them in stock. People really like having literature like this in the office and I get lots of comments on them and it opens up lots of avenues for conversation. Thank you again for your ministry and thoughtfulness. — Debbie E., Oregon” How nice… looking around I think more and more that Ken Ham and people like him are retarded, and deserve to go live on the moon.

Comments:

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Setsuna United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 09:38 AM

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The claim that Homer ‘ripped’ off the bible made me wonder, so I did some research. I found out that Homer wrote the Oddessy about 800 BC while the Dead Sea Scrolls were only written, “between the 2nd century BC and the 1st century AD.” Please correct me if I’m wrong here, but BC time is the opposite of AD, so 800 would have been earlier than when the Scrolls were written, not to mention that the Iliad and Oddessy were probably spoken epics long before being put to paper, much like Beowulf, so Homer probably didn’t make them up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 09:50 AM

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Trivial apologetics. If the Bible is unfailingly right, the historical record must be wrong.

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decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 09:51 AM

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I wonder how much press a Christian blog would receive if it were
to openly be hostile towards homosexuality. Point to ponder. We would
probably at least see it on CBS News.

There are a lot of Christian blogs that are openly hostile toward homosexuality.  But the one that always makes the news is godhatesfags.com, which is an outrageous hate site.  (Don’t believe me?  Go look.)

In other words, acting like a jerk will get you attention and will result in opposition, which you can point to and say, “Look!  Persecution!”

No one gets fired or is denied a mortgage in this country for being a Christian, though lots of bad things happen to people for being a jerk.  You’re perfectly free to protest homosexuality as gays are free to demonstrate for gay rights.  You can get all props inside your church for talking trash on homos, but don’t expect to be popular if you do the same in a gay bar.

The myth that the Bible was “ripped� from other stories of the time is just completely false and unprovable. It is provable however, that the stories of Mithra and the Odyssy etc.. have been directly ripped from the Bible.

Right.  And “Shakespeare is best enjoyed in the original Klingon.”

Shaye United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 09:55 AM

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decrepitoldfool, I think he’s referring to his own blog when he says, “I wonder how much press a Christian blog would receive if it were
to openly be hostile towards homosexuality.”

Judging from the lack of commenters, can we say ‘blog-envy’? I’m just razzing you. :D

OB United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 10:06 AM

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Main Entry: per·se·cute
Pronunciation: ‘p&r-si-"kyĂĽt
1 : to harass in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities)

Eric, you cited these stories as examples of Christian persecution when in fact, Marcavage is the one doing the persecuting as defined in #2 above.  Christians ARE free to worship and believe any nonsense they like, but when they choose to express that belief by consistently harassing and annoying others in a manner which makes their “targets” feel intimidated and afraid for their safety (and this whackjob Marcavage appears to have enough of a history of persecuting gays to make any sane person fearful that he can go over the edge at any moment), their actions have gone beyond mere free speech and free exercise.  Far from being persecuted in America, Christians enjoy the freedom to harass, annoy and otherwise persecute anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their worldview by claiming their God instructs them to do so and saying their First Amendment rights are being trampled upon when someone’s had enough of their bullshit and has them removed for being a disturbance.

The request that Christians keep their beliefs and their worship within their own homes and churches, and that they keep their protests peaceful and fit for public consumption is NOT persecution.  When normal everyday people insist that THEIR rights be respected by telling Christians to either sit down and shut the fuck up and protest peacefully (which does not include carrying signs that are not fit for children to see) or LEAVE if they don’t agree with the event that’s taking place, that’s not persecution - it’s just an attempt to live side-by-side with one’s fellow human beings peaceably, regardless of differences in opinion in matters of religion or anything else.

When someone proposes an Amendment to the Constitution to keep Christians from enjoying the same rights as everyone else, THEN they might be able to claim persecution without the rest of us laughing ourselves silly.

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nowiser United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 10:13 AM

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Setsuna, Ragle’s asserting that the epics were not written before the Genesis accounts.  That’s OT, not NT. 

Considering that the history of the Jews stretches back pretty damn far, he’s right about Genesis predating Homer.

I’d respond to some of his other points, but I’ve got to be at work in about 1/2 an hour.  I just hate the way work intrudes into my playtime.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 10:21 AM

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I think he might be referring to his own blog

All kidding aside, I think you might be right!  I just went and looked at his blog.  It’s pretty nice-looking and written a little humorously.  He also has a post about “Persecution of Christians world-wide” based on a cover story in Whistleblower magazine.  Eric, if you want more press, why didn’t you just say so?  I’d be glad to help:

1) You need to be more bombastic in your rhetoric.  Try invoking the fire of hell in explicit language, and be sure to mention your loving god’s awful vengance against those who disobey him (and how they can be saved from the vengance by outsourcing the victim role to god’s son.)

2) That header picture with someone (you?) standing in a ray of heavenly light is genius.  But you need to photoshop some suffering sinners into the darkness around you.

3) Show up carrying protest signs at funerals of dead sinners.  It doesn’t have to be homosexuals - it could be drunk drivers or just people who died from heart attacks after eating too much fast food. When the news media shows up, brush aside concerns about cruelty and insensitivity and say you’re “on a mission from God.”

These are just examples… I’m sure you get the idea.  No need to thank me, I’m glad to be of assistance.

Oh, and - “what OB said.”

Cindi United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 10:42 AM

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Eric: 
“Okay, but I wonder how much press a Christian blog would receive if it were to openly be hostile towards homosexuality. Point to ponder. We would probably at least see it on CBS News.”
You can’t really be saying that there are no “Christian” blogs that are not openly hostile to homosexuals?  You link to WorldNutDaily - among the noted leaders in openly hostile crap.

“All I am saying is that by spewing forth uninformed views of the Christian religion, you create a hostile environment for Christians to live in.”
It seems to me that “Christians” are doing a damn fine job of spewing forth uninformed views of the “Christian religion” all on their own.  They’ve hijacked a perfectly fine (for some) belief system and turned it into a weapon of hate and fear.

Face it.  This country was not founded on your narrow little beliefs.

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Eric Ragle United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 10:42 AM

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Ah yes, it’s time to attack the author and not the point. I’ll ignore the references to my blog for now, as I have never needed to promote it. (and in reality, why would someone promote a blog? you gain nothing by it)

1st- Persecution comes to anyone who is treated differently for their beliefs. How am I being treated differently on this very site as the one lone believer? Why am I being treated more harshly because I believe differently? Tolerance in action folks, that’s my point.

2nd- In regards to the cosmetics of my blog, I would be glad to help you out if and when you ever had the time or desire to start one of your own. It is a nice looking blog isn’t it? Thanks for your kind words.

What I am noticing is a distinct change of definition in regards to Christian persecution in difference to the mainstream definition mainstream media usually reserves for gay bashings or misunderstood liberals. Very telling indeed.

In regards to my actual beliefs (which I might add were not the topic but were brought up in a rather harsh manner none the less), yes, God will judge all of those who haven’t been forgiven of breaking His law on the day of judgement.

If you haven’t repented and accepted that Jesus died for your sin, then yes, God will judge you. (hey, you brought it up)

In any event, I don’t wish to stir improper feelings in anyone, I just wanted to point out (and all of you proved in your postings) that it’s not about equal rights anymore. It’s about squashing, stopping, or shutting up the Christians. It’s not about equal rights rather, it’s about YOUR rights and no one else’s unless they agree with you politically or don’t make you feel anymore uncomfortable than your conscience already does.

Thank you all for the wonderful conversation this morning! God bless you my friends.
Rev. Eric

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 10:46 AM

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Well, if one sincerly worries about the persecution of Christians I’d start looking towards Iraq. Anybody’s willing to take bets if some of the insurgents aren’t taking Bush’s crusade remark to heart?

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Cindi United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 10:56 AM

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“If you haven’t repented and accepted that Jesus died for your sin, then yes, God will judge you. (hey, you brought it up)”

I love the way some blanket condemn the millions of non-christians.  Doesn’t matter if they are good, kind, decent & loving people.  Funny thing though....I worry less about them than I do the “christians.” If you truly believe in your vengeful, hateful version of god, you’d do better to be concerend with your own sorry self.

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Shaye United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 10:58 AM

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Thank you nowiser for correcting me. :D

OB United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 11:08 AM

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What I am noticing is a distinct change of definition in regards to Christian persecution in difference to the mainstream definition mainstream media usually reserves for gay bashings or misunderstood liberals. Very telling indeed.

Huh?  I provided a DICTIONARY definition of persecution.  Are you saying that for Christians, mere disagreement = persecution?

Anybody’s willing to take bets if some of the insurgents aren’t taking Bush’s crusade remark to heart?

I’m a patriotic American and an atheist and *I* took his crusade remark to heart!  It’s what makes him so frightening to any rational and sane American; he truly believes he’s doing his God’s work.  Just like “our enemies.”

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Eric Ragle United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 11:12 AM

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I love the way some blanket condemn the millions of non-christians.  Doesn’t matter if they are good, kind, decent & loving people.  Funny thing though....I worry less about them than I do the “christians.â€? If you truly believe in your vengeful, hateful version of god, you’d do better to be concerend with your own sorry self. I’ll address this and then I really must go.

Imagine if you will a kind, good, decent and loving man lived his whole life just being kind, good, decent and loving. Suddenly one day he awoke and didn’t feel the same and for some unknown reason murdered, in cold blood, your mother(or insert loved one here) who just happened to be walking down the street. 

The man is arrested, charged with murder and stands before the judge. He says,"your honor, I’ve been a kind, good, decent, and loving man my whole life, and because of that, you will have mercy on me and let me go...”

What do you think the judge will say? I don’t think he will let him go do you? If you’ve ever told a lie, if you’ve ever stolen, you’ve broken God’s law. If you ever committed adultery and that doesn’t just mean in the physical sense, but Jesus said you committ adultery if you as much as lust after someone in your heart.

Have you ever hated someone? The Bible says that is the same as murder. All of these things are sins in God’s eyes and He promised that one day He would pass judgement for those sins. The only way to be found “not guilty,” is to repent (confess) these sins and ask Jesus Christ to forgive you and be your savior. At that point you strive to live everyday for Him instead of yourself. But that doesn’t mean you won’t still sin.

I sin everyday, just the same as everyone else. I seek forgiveness though. It’s the easiest thing I’ve ever done. And because I’m a Christian, I have an obligation to “make diciples of all the nations...” and that doesn’t mean by force. Rather, to spread the word of God by way of mouth, or literature to anyone I can, whether it makes them uncomfortable or not.

But what sort of reprisal will this post bring? Will I be made fun of or ridiculed once again? Or will I be shown tolerance for stating my opinion as all of you have done this morning? Am I allowed this privledge as well or is it reserved for only those of a like mind or way of thought?

In any event, may God bless you all and I will be in prayer for each of you who read this.

Shaye United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 11:13 AM

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Also, “Ah yes, it’s time to attack the author and not the point.”

You are the point. The point being that narrow-minded individuals such as yourself don’t deserve respect when they show none in return. You intiated comments on this post, no one actively searched you out.

“How am I being treated differently on this very site as the one lone believer? Why am I being treated more harshly because I believe differently? Tolerance in action folks, that’s my point.”

Perhaps you should heed your own advice. We treat you like the troll you are, who happens to be spewing Christian rhetoric at us. If you were an atheist and were being rude you’d likely get the same treatment.

“ just wanted to point out (and all of you proved in your postings) that it’s not about equal rights anymore. It’s about squashing, stopping, or shutting up the Christians.”

We have the right to ask you to shut-up if we don’t like what you’re saying, just as you reserve the right likewise for us. You seem to be making much ado over nothing much, we try to have sensible and rational discussions, and you are welcome to participate.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 11:17 AM

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Eric, there’s nothing that complicated about persecution.  If people disagree with you, laugh at you, and make fun of your beliefs (especially in their own space,) that isn’t persecution.  If you’re denied a job, a promotion, a mortgage, are beaten, imprisoned, tortured and/or killed, that is persecution.

If you think you’re being treated harshly here, I suggest you sign up for a tour as a Christian missionary in Iraq.  You might look back rather fondly at people who point at you and laugh in the comfort of a country where Christianity is the dominant religion and there are Christian churches all over the place.

Also, there are some regulars here who know a thing or two about Christianity as you will find out if you do some more reading.

Cindi United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 12:02 PM

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Imagine if you will a kind, good, decent and loving man lived his whole life just being kind, good, decent and loving. Suddenly one day he awoke and didn’t feel the same and for some unknown reason murdered, in cold blood, your mother(or insert loved one here) who just happened to be walking down the street. 

The man is arrested, charged with murder and stands before the judge. He says,"your honor, I’ve been a kind, good, decent, and loving man my whole life, and because of that, you will have mercy on me and let me go...�

What.The.Fuck. 

The above is so patently absurd, I’m almost speechless.  So...non-christians just snap and for no reason murder people?  Am I going to wake up tomorrow and kill my neighbor? 

And don’t think you’re being ridiculed or persecuted for expressing your opinion - you have every right to it.  But people with attitudes like yours is what drove me screaming away from christianity years ago.  The intolerance was and is sickening.

Spare me your pious little prayers and god bless yous.

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Brock United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 01:21 PM

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Eric, I’m sorry if you feel that you are being persecuted here. I wouldn’t be as proud of this site if I thought that was par for the course here. So I am hesitant to criticize anything you might have said, but I hope you won’t mind some well-meant observations.

Your appeal to justice with your story of a kind, good, decent and loving man doesn’t quite work for me. If he committed murder deliberately and intentionally or recklessly with extreme disregard for human life, not justified through self-defense, then he was likely not really a kind, good, decent and loving man to begin with, or could no longer be considered so. Further, while human law would likely punish him for life, your God, if the individual sought forgiveness from him, would award him “eternal life”. Where is the great justice your God stands for? A god who would allow a murderer eternal life is, by your own logic, a corrupt god.

You can blather on continuously about sinning and being ever free from retribution (through forgiveness), but it just seems irresponsible to me. What god worthy of respect would consider individuals who annoy others with their narrow-minded beliefs and follow him only to be forgiven their transgressions noble and most deserving?
Forgive me if I seem disrespectful, but you seem delusional to me. Your religion seems to have you by the short hairs and your capacity for critical thought seems to be lacking. Prove to me that the god you believe in really exists and that he has given you permission to proselytize and I will be the first one here to apologize.

Finally, how do you come by the title Reverend, and why should we be impressed by that title?

Lordklegg Canada Posted on 10/05/2004 at 01:27 PM

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I was too busy at work to post earlier and that Decrepitoldfool beat me to it!!! 
I LOVE White American Christians that claim persecution in AMERICA!  It is so laughable it makes me want to cry.  Get off the couch and try being a christian missionary in Pakistan, Indonesia, India, Saudi-Arabia (yes try Saudi).  Talk to some people who’ve done it and see what they have to say about life outside the U.S.
Non-christians in the United States simply want SEPARATION of church and state.  If the Christian right backed off just a bit and went for sensible social policy instead of my way or burning damnation as social policy sensible political discource might actually happen.

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Cindi United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 01:33 PM

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What Brock said.

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Eric Ragle United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 01:48 PM

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The above is so patently absurd, I’m almost speechless.  So...non-christians just snap and for no reason murder people? 
You obviously didn’t draw the connection I was making in regard to this statement:
I love the way some blanket condemn the millions of non-christians.  Doesn’t matter if they are good, kind, decent & loving people.

I was curious about the comments concerning my “attitude.” I don’t recall expressing rudeness towards any of you, so I am a bit confused as to why those assertations are being made.

In regards to persecution, granted it is 1000 times worse in other countries, but that doesn’t mean it doens’t take place here. To think it doesn’t, I’m sorry to say, is a bit foolish.

To say Chrisitian persecution doesn’t take place in America is like saying racism no longer occurs, police abuse no longer occurs, homelessness no longer occurs....etc. Let me purpose that all of these things do occur and on a daily basis, it’s only that you don’t see it, or hear about it that is the problem unless it is in connection to a certain political action.

As far as “my god” given right to spread the word, that comes from the Bible and anyone who is a Christian has that right. As far as the title of “reverand,” it was not meant to impress you, in as much as it did since you mentioned it. I came by it by being called into the ministry at an early age. I made it official in man’s eyes by becoming ordained, that is to be sanctioned by a religious body to perform marriages, baptisms etc.

What god worthy of respect would consider individuals who annoy others with their narrow-minded beliefs and follow him only to be forgiven their transgressions noble and most deserving? I would wonder why it is so annoying to you. If you were entirely comfortable in your sin, I would think the words of a witnessing Christian would be dismissed without emotion. Interesting.

Prove to me that the god you believe in really exists and that he has given you permission to proselytize and I will be the first one here to apologize. Creation around you screams His existance. Prove to me that he doesn’t exist. Prove to me why you aren’t subject to the same law of God that I am. Or do you just think you aren’t and really don’t know? Let me ask you this, what would you say to Him if I was right? I know you don’t believe so pretend if you mus. What would you say to Him if everything I have wrote here is correct?

You are standing before the creator of all things and now He wants to hear your excuse for your sins? What will it be? You can’t say that you weren’t told, because I’ve told you. You can’t say you didn’t feel a stirring of emotion from your conscience because I sense that you have through the words you have wrote. What will you tell Him?

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 02:29 PM

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“I don’t recall expressing rudeness”

There are other kinds of rudeness besides hostility.  Condescension, for one, and presumption for another.  Either one will get you a pretty chilly reception anywhere. 

Showing up on a Mission From God to lecture others about “responsibility” and “tolerance” is pretty unfriendly.  And yes, you do think you’re on a MFG - it says so in your Bible and you just said so yourself in other words.

There is no significant persecution of Christians in America.  Unless you class “living in a diverse culture not controlled by a Christian theocracy” as persecution.

Some of the worst historical persecution against Christians, however, has been by other Christians who aren’t happy with your brand of Christianity.

If you see an invisible super-being as being the most likely explanation for things that are explainable in terms of natural phenomena, I would have to go along with Brock and say you’re deleusional.  The fact that it’s a popular deleusion makes no difference.

What would I say to God?  How about, “Why did you give me powers of reason and then make it almost impossible to believe in you when using them?” Or even, “Why didn’t you send someone who knows how to spell “reverend?”

That’s the presumptuous attitude you have - you make a fantastic claim: that there’s an invisible super-being who has claim on all our existence - and say, “If you don’t believe then you are headed for eternal torment!” And then whine that we’re not being nice to you.

That’s more than a little bit discourteous.

Brock United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 03:21 PM

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Eric said:

If you were entirely comfortable in your sin, I would think the words of a witnessing Christian would be dismissed without emotion. Interesting.

Apparently you haven’t read much of what I’ve written at SEB, or you wouldn’t consider what I said to you emotional. I could be like you and try to scare people into respecting myself and my messages, but being that way isn’t worthy of respect. If I speak of political situations and suggest likely results, that is one thing: I have reason and logic to bring to the discourse. But if I speak of a jealous and angry god bringing a gigantic can of whoop ass to your after-death party if you don’t accept my beliefs, you can be the first to accuse me of expressing emotion, undue or otherwise.

Mostly what you have done is further in my mind the unfair assumption that too many residents of Tennessee are back-wards and clueless.

The truth is that there is a god and he doesn’t like you passing judgment in his stead, or for speaking for what he will and will not allow and you’ll get to dip your little toesies in that eternal lake of fire instead of me.

Honestly I doubt that you (or I, for that matter) have anything to worry about, but how do you like it when someone else tells you how it REALLY is?

The true God Of All That Is could kick your puny god’s ass. But the true God Of All That Is isn’t.

Oh, and what decrepitoldfool said. (Cliché but sincerely meant.)

nowiser United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 03:27 PM

nowiser pic

I sin everyday, just the same as everyone else. I seek forgiveness though. It’s the easiest thing I’ve ever done

Wow.  And this is one of the reasons I reject Christianity.  Forgiveness, in the words of David Baerwald, has never meant a damn to me.

I “sin” pretty regularly too.  But no one else gets to tell me what my sins are, I determine that for myself.  And I don’t forgive myself either. 

I strive to make myself a better person not because I desire salvation, but because I want to be worthy of my wife, my family, my friends, the students who have placed their trust in me, the teachers who have had faith in me, etc.  There is no “big gold sticker in the sky” after we die.

Our obligations are here and now, as are our rewards.

To say Chrisitian persecution doesn’t take place in America is like saying racism no longer occurs, police abuse no longer occurs, homelessness no longer occurs

Hmmm.  When a black man punches a white man in the head, because that man is openly espousing the genetic inferiority of “coloreds” .  .  .

is Whitey being oppressed?

When a homeless man throws a brick through the window of the landlord who evicted him. . .

is the landlord being oppressed?

When a gay man smashes a sign reading “faggots burn in hell”. . .

is he oppressing Christians?

I have to admit, Eric, you sho have given me food for thought.

Cindi United States Posted on 10/05/2004 at 03:41 PM

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A bigot is a bigot is a bigot, especially those hiding in the righteousness of their little gods.

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The stupid!  It burns!!

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