Amazing.
There was a moment in HS that I finally realized it was okay that I wasn’t Xian.
I was taking a “Man & Myth” course.
When i learned that Adam & Eve, Christ, The Flood, Creation were all archetypes and every civilization (ancient and modern) had its own version of each I knew I had been snowed when I was younger.
I used to carry around a book of world mythologies and it really came in handy during “discussions” about religion.

“The Virgin Mary is an interesting prism through which to examine America’s emphasis on faith because most Biblical scholars regard the evidence for the Virgin Birth, and for Mary’s assumption into Heaven (which was proclaimed as Catholic dogma only in 1950), as so shaky that it pretty much has to be a leap of faith.”

Well ... yeah.  I mean ... that’s what Christianity is all about, isn’t it?  Faith?  Believing in something you cannot see as though you can?  I guess I just don’t understand the need for evidence of everything.  Doesn’t that narrow your existence? 

Hope and faith .... two things which, for me, make the toughest times worth trudging through.  And, Les, I don’t believe in the things I do because someone told me to.  I’ve considered all possibilities, but for me, it goes beyond just what I believe, and is what I feel.  I may not have the evidence staring up at me from a textbook, but I know what I know.  Some things require no tangible evidence, and are much better known when felt through the spirit rather than seen with the eyes.

I apologize for the long rant.  I’ve had a really long day and I’m exhausted.  Somehow I just got carried away. I love this new design, Les.  It is really great!

Leigh

Is faith believing in things that may have no basis in reality?  I don’t mean something we can’t see (there are zillions of things like that), I mean something that is not so.  If you read the gospels I believe they refer to Isaiah when discussing the birth of Jesus. If you read those few verses, it is quite clear that Isaiah is not discussing Christ, but some child whose birth was imminent (around 700 BC).  If read the passages from verse 14 and into chapter 8, they clearly don’t refer to Jesus and Mary, but to a woman who “was” pregnant when Isaiah made the “prophecy”.

My wife used that, “by faith” argument on me last Christmas when she “schooled me” about the 3 Wise Men.  We have a nativity panorama that shows “3” wise men, one of them clearly of African extraction.  I told her that the Bible doesn’t say there were “three” wise men.  Further, that their names were Balthazar, Gaspar, and Melchior was also a myth.  She went off on one of her, “you don’t have faith” rants and told me her friend had a book on it, so it must be so.  Well, of course it isn’t so.

So why do you believe in a virgin birth, other than the fact that the preacher says to?  Read Isaiah 7 and 8 and tell me if you honestly think these refer to Jesus’ birth.  It astounds me that in no other area but religion, the more ignorant a person is, the more enlightened he is!

Leigh, no problem on the rant. You know I always appreciate hearing from you as you always ask good questions.

Well ... yeah. I mean ... that’s what Christianity is all about, isn’t it? Faith? Believing in something you cannot see as though you can? I guess I just don’t understand the need for evidence of everything. Doesn’t that narrow your existence?

Faith is the basis for most religions simply because they ask you to believe in incredible things that can’t normally be proven whether the belief in question is Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto or what have you.

Does requiring evidence for everything narrow your existence? I wouldn’t think so. I may understand the natural processes behind a beautiful sunset, but that understanding doesn’t diminish my sense of awe when I see one. In that way I still have a sense of spirituality of a sort. I may believe there is enough evidence to accept evolution as true, but that doesn’t diminish the wonder of seeing my child turn 13 years old either. I know gravity exists, but it’s still a mystery as to how it works.

Hope and faith ... two things which, for me, make the toughest times worth trudging through. And, Les, I don’t believe in the things I do because someone told me to. I’ve considered all possibilities, but for me, it goes beyond just what I believe, and is what I feel. I may not have the evidence staring up at me from a textbook, but I know what I know. Some things require no tangible evidence, and are much better known when felt through the spirit rather than seen with the eyes.

Hope and faith are two different things in my book. Simply because I feel that incredible claims require incredible evidence doesn’t mean I don’t have hope. Yes, faith in a “higher-power” would be comforting at the toughest times in life, but I take comfort in the knowledge that where I am today is not where I will be tomorrow because things always change. Sometimes they’ll get worse, but often they’ll get better, especially if I work toward making them better. I’ve lived through tough times both with a faith in God and without a faith in God and I’ve found that putting my faith in a God just dragged out the misery and confusion more often than not. The realization that I have no one to pull me up by my bootstraps other than myself is one helluva motivator.

You’ll be surprised to hear this, but my lack of faith is based more on a feeling than any definitive proof of the lack of a God or Gods to have faith in. It’s based on the available evidence and my own personal experiences much the same as other people’s belief in God is based.

And I agree that sometimes one’s intuition is a good thing to rely on, but let’s be honest about it: If you were due for brain surgery to remove a tumor who would you trust? The neurosurgeon or someone who has no medical training, but really feels he knows how to do the surgery for you? If you said the neurosurgeon then I’d say that when it comes to really important decisions you’re as reliant on evidence as I am.

Keep in mind the point I was trying to make with my rant. It’s not so much that I care that so many people believe in the idea of a “virgin birth” because I’ve grown to accept that most people are going to believe a lot of silly things. My problem is that so few people will accept the idea of Evolution despite the mountains of evidence that supports it that you can easily look up for yourself. Our society seems to be at a point where the more ridiculous the claim the more readily people are to buy into it and accept it as reality. Be that claim UFOs, Big Foot, talking to the dead, losing weight via electric shocks, using magnetic bracelets to cure joint pain, predicting your future or the idea that a virgin gave birth to God. If it has no scientific evidence to back it up then most Americans seem ready to accept it as Gospel.

That’s a dangerous way to go through life making decisions and it bugs the hell out of me. We’re supposed to be smarter than that.

I think that these polls should have an “incredulous poller” function. It would go something like this:

Q: Do you believe, literally, in virgin birth?
A: Yes.
Q: (furrows brow) Really? You’re not going to hell. Come on now. Really.
A: Sure I do.
Q: Wow. OK.

Hopefully, the incredulous poller could reduce the numbers to the 60% range.

What if a woman never had sex and then gave birth.
This would clearly be a virgin birth.

But what if she had sex, had a child naturally,
then gave birth later with out having sex.
She wouldn’t be a virgin, but it would be a non-sexually procreated child.

Maybe we need a new scienfic term here.
Para-quasi-virginoidal birth.

I’ve read in the past someplace that there have been modern examples of “virgin” births. One case involved a teenage girl who had recently engaged in oral sex with a boy and was later stabbed in the stomach with a knife. She survived the attack, but wound up pregnant when the ejaculate in her stomach spilled into her torso after being stabbed. I tried to find a web reference to this, but haven’t been able to locate it. Snopes doesn’t have it listed as an urban legend, but the validity is still questionable. Still, I can see where something such as that could happen and would technically qualify as a “virgin birth” with a rational explanation for it.

Given the time period the events in the Bible are supposed to take place in I wonder how anyone from that period would be able to tell one way or the other whether or not a particular event would qualify as a virgin birth.

I believe that even if that young girl had been stabbed in the stomach while she was being eaten by a shark and being hit by lightning, there is no way she could have gotten pregnant from oral sex.  For one, since stomach acid (HCl) will eat through metal, I doubt those little wiggly fellas (sperm) could have survived.  If not for the lining, the acid would eat our stomachs up!  Wow, that almost sounds like “intelligent design!!!” Second, it’s a little implausible that a girl who is prepped to give oral sex isn’t prepped to do the “horizontal mambo”!  I would put that one in the “Urban Legend” category.

Hi again, Les

“ ... Yes, faith in a “higher-power” would be comforting at the toughest times in life, but I take comfort in the knowledge that where I am today is not where I will be tomorrow because things always change. Sometimes they’ll get worse, but often they’ll get better, especially if I work toward making them better. I’ve lived through tough times both with a faith in God and without a faith in God and I’ve found that putting my faith in a God just dragged out the misery and confusion more often than not. The realization that I have no one to pull me up by my bootstraps other than myself is one helluva motivator.”

I agree with you completely—things are constantly changing, day to day, and so am I.  I take comfort in that knowledge, as well.  I do not think that having faith in a higher power automatically negates that belief, nor diminishes that knowledge.  Similarly, I do not think it is fair to imply that because one does believe in God, that they automatically don’t believe in pulling themselves up by the bootstraps and helping themselves in times of trouble.  Personally speaking, I do not expect God to fix everything for me; I simply ask for His help and guidance while doing it myself.

“And I agree that sometimes one’s intuition is a good thing to rely on, but let’s be honest about it: If you were due for brain surgery to remove a tumor who would you trust? The neurosurgeon or someone who has no medical training, but really feels he knows how to do the surgery for you? If you said the neurosurgeon then I’d say that when it comes to really important decisions you’re as reliant on evidence as I am.”

It goes without saying that I would choose the neurosurgeon.  But I see no correlation between choosing a competent surgeon and my faith in God.  It’s like comparing apples and oranges.  Humans are fallable, so of course I want the doctor with the most training, experience and proven track record.  On the other hand, my faith is based on believing in a God Who is not fallable and has no human frailties or weaknesses but, rather, is spiritual, therefore I require no evidence that He will do a good job by me.

In the longrun, though, Les, does it really matter if one believes in creation or evolution?  Isn’t what really matters in this world is how we treat each other, not how we got here?

Something I find interesting .... even though you are now an atheist, I notice you continue to captialize God and Gospel.  That’s one of those things that makes me stop and go, “hmmmm ...”

By the way, if I haven’t said it before, let me say it now:  I really appreciate being able to enjoy an exchange like this with someone who has such diametrically opposing views from my own, and who is able to actually discuss things without getting petty and nasty.  Thanks for that.

Happy Early Birthday! (Don’t worry too much about turning 36.  Save it for when you turn forty! *wink*)

I think those who insist God must exist by basing their argument on the observably complex inter-connectedness of the universe miss the obvious counter-logic to their argument. A god who could construct such wonders would surely be beyond ego driven compulsions. A god who has the intelligence to put together a machine that works so well would likely be far too intelligent to desire or need human adoration or to require vengeance to mollify a wounded ego. On the other hand, an evolution of life requires the obvious, too. If something doesn’t work: if it is counterproductive to the machine’s ability to operate, it ceases to exist. Chaos is self-defeating. That which does not contribute to the sound operation of the whole destroys all and we would not have been here to witness it.

So they say he is perfect yet they consign him to the singular role of a deus ex machina; necessary to achieve their drama’s just ending.  If companionship were the reason a god would create mankind it would make more sense. But then he would make them perfect too. This god wouldn’t require companionship just for drama’s sake.
That’s man’s special perversity.

Brock

Actually quite elegant and I am in about 98% agreement with you!!!  I agree totally that people assign attributes (jealousy, cruelty, etc.) to a being that would clearly be above such pettiness.  What could shock or awe a being responsible for the creation of all matter?  If God knows all, then there are no surprises… It would be impossible that he could design a thing (us) and then be displeased with it.

I especially liked your “ghost in the machine” analogy.  The battle between the Devil and God is a lot like the battle between the Coyote and the Roadrunner.  The Devil runs around, causing discord and strife wherever he goes, but is too stupid to have read ahead and know that he will ultimately be defeated.  All Christians know this truth, but it eludes the Devil.

In comparison the Coyote is just never going to catch that Roadrunner.  We all watch it and know it, but the Coyote keeps pressing on, oblivious to his ultimate failure.  The Coyote doesn’t know that he will never catch the Roadrunner and applies incredible effort in his mission; just like Satan in his works.

You hit on another of my biggest problems with contemporary charismatic Christians…their incredible pessimism!  They attribute 9-11 to gays, the ACLU, abortion, hell they attribute it to everyone except the imbeciles that carried out the attacks!  I’ve observed this phenomena for many years…they have to believe the world is getting worse and worse, even when there is evidence that conditions are getting better and better.  They even fabricate data (ala Kent Hovind) to show how we are becoming progressively worse.

The average life expectancy in this country just 100 years ago was about 47 years old!  People died by the hundreds of thousands due to diseases that are totally treatable today, starvation, improper sanitation, and contaminated food.  Less than 150 years ago, I would have been categorized as property.  Women had few rights and were merely objects; little better off than my predecessors.  So have things gotten better in that regard???

Now the 2% I disagree with…You said:

If something doesn’t work: if it is counterproductive to the machine’s ability to operate, it ceases to exist

Well cancer is counterproductive to the efficient operation of the machine and it continues to operate.  It doesn’t “cease to exist” with the death of the organisms affected by it.  In fact, cancer cells, unlike normal cells, appear to be able to reproduce indefinitely!  Arguably viruses serve no useful purpose to the smooth operation of the machine.  Certain negative traits are selected against, but I see no mechanisms in place that weed out other undesirable characteristics.

On chaos…it is a rather nebulous term.  Whenever we can’t see a pattern in a thing or a system, we generally label it chaotic.  From my meager understanding of it, Chaos Theory states that systems that appear to be chaotic truly operate in a pattern.  Many people insist that the Earth’s weather patterns are changing, but what if these patterns occur in huge intervals; hundreds of centuries…or hundreds of millennia?  Coincidentally, my understanding is that Chaos Theory was developed by a meteorologist!

I really thought your comments were cool and I take back 98.34% of the bad things I’ve said (and thought) about you.  As long as we don’t talk military or political issues, it appears we can be quite civil!

I guess we have to add “Chemical Ali” to the short list of those resurrected from the dead!  Another proof of the Bible???  Let’s ask Jerry Falwell

This is a little late to be commenting on this thread, but I couldn’t resist.

There’s no conflict between evolution and virgin birth.  Once thought to be confined to lower animals, parthenogenesis has since been discovered far up the evolutionary ladder.  A species of lizard from the American Southwest, whose males were once thought to be extremely elusive, is now known to simply have no males- two females engage in (seemingly pointless) courtship behavior, and then one of them lays (unfertilized but viable) eggs.  Since the hatchlings lack a Y chromosome, they are naturally female.  Several more species of lizard that reproduce thus asexually have since been found, but no mammals so far.  The implications about Jesus are clear- if we are to believe Matthew and Luke, she was a reptile.

I just realized that this gives us a whole new perspective on Godzilla…

Answer this for me.  If you go back to the beginning, whenever that was, who or what made the very first thing that started it all?  There has to be a beginnning.  Nothing has always been in existance; so how did the very first particle start with nothing to start with?  Does anyone know?

Answer this for me. IF nothing has always been in existence, then who made the God you appear to believe in? You answer that first and then I’ll answer your question.

If there is a God, He wouldn’t be God if He had not always been.  But nothing that was created has always been.  I mean, if there’s one true God, and no one over him, who could have created Him.  And if there’s not a God, where did the first particle of matter come from?

Now you’re changing your argument with qualifiers. Your first question contained a very simple statement “nothing has always been in existence” yet God would be “something” and when confronted with the obvious contradiction this poses you try to change your argument.

Your follow up is full of fallacies as well. First you’re assuming that there is a single concept of God that is universally agreed upon and that’s not the case at all. Second, you try to qualify your original statement by adding the word “created” which just begs the question of why you’re assuming the first particle was created and not something that had always existed. Explain to me why it’s not possible for the Universe to have always existed in one form or another seeing as this is a contingent part of your question?

Would you WANT there to be a God?  Maybe it was just chance that you were born into a home that didn’t lead you to a God.  You could have just as easily been born into a home that taught that there is a God.  After being brought up to believe there’s a God, it still took me until I was 30 to have contact with Him that proved to me His existence.

Eva, if you know even the slightest about Les you’d know that he hasn’t hasn’t always been an atheist.

Damn Les, you must get tired of always explaining yourself. I didn’t post one comment until I read every one of you most commented posts. I tend to do that on all sites I post on. It seems most of the trolls here haven’t even browsed your site or they would at least know something of your religious background.

I didn’t know I had to have been on this site before, to be able to comment.  But why don’t you let Les speak for himself?

It’s not required but it should be. For one thing, had you browsed any of the threads, you would know that you best be well prepared when starting a debate with Les or you’ll most likely leave with your tail between your legs. The dude gotz debate skillzzz!

I love a good debate!  Especially when I know what I’m talking about.  Does it bother YOU for me to comment?  Eva

Not at all, I simply like to read debates that haven’t already taken place but, if you bring a new argument to the table I’m sure plenty of others will join in. I always enjoy reading the philosophical ideas and religious views of new people so long as they are not the same recycled sermons that so many bring to the table.

Well, if you weren’t always an athiest, I probably don’t have anything to tell you that you haven’t already heard.  What continues to be a miracle to me, day after day, is that I was raised in such a legalistic home that I came to the conclusion that I could never please God enough to have any kind of relationship with Him.  That didn’t keep me from trying, over and over, to find Him.  I came to the conclusion that great things like ever feeling God’s presence was for people who certainly were better than me.  But I am so hardheaded that I find it very hard to give up on something that I really want, so I didn’t.  And what all happened to bring the impossible to pass is a very dramatic story that I don’t bother to tell people because it’s unbelievable - but my most prized memory.  I’m glad now that I had to wait so long, because now I don’t take this rare relationship for granted.  It’s an ever-evolving miracle in my life every day.  It never gets old and I’ve never been disappointed.  You’re probably not open-minded enough to want to hear it, so I won’t push it on you.  I just live knowing I am one of the most fortunate women who ever lived.  I’ve thought many times that I should put a sticker on my back bumper that says, NO FEAR.  But I hate things stuck on cars, so I don’t.  I’m certainly not afraid to be laughed at, or called an odd ball, I just don’t feel the need to mess up my car - even if it is an old Lexus.  Oh, I use to be tempted to tell this story, but not many people want to do what you have to do to reap the benefits.  If only they knew WHAT the benefits were, they’d do anything to get them.  I’m so glad I’m hardheaded.  I wouldn’t take any amount of money for what I have found.  I wake up many mornings wanting to laugh out loud, and do sometimes.  But, like I said, most people don’t want to hear, so I will keep my precious gift to myself most of the time.  I would say, God Bless, but He won’t if you don’t want Him to.  Eva