Europeans are humans just like the other countries. A far cry form comparing apes to men.

No you dumbass, you are comparing apples to oranges.

And please, please, please save your breath if you offer to pray for me.  I am damned without hope of salvation according to your precious little book, but just in case:

The Holy Spirit: (proper Noun, Name)

1. The name given to the afterbirth that sprang from the womb of the prostitute who claimed to be a virgin at the point of delivery, Mary after giving birth to the degenerate half-man, half-god, half-pig hybrid later called Jesus of Nazereth, whom she conceived with by a very old, very angry, and very senile being claiming to be the creator of the universe.

2. the seminal fluid and spermatazoa of above mentioned claimant to the creation of the universe.  Universally imbibed by those who claim to be followers of the hybrid man-god-pig offspring of a prostitute who claimed to be a virgin at the time of giving birth and the afformentioned claimant to creation of the universe.

Now, if you read the above statements Rick, you are thinking them, and according the Jesus, thinking is the same as doing, so I guess I’ll keep your seat in hell warm for ya buddy (cause it Would be hell sitting next to you).

I don’t quite understand what your asking about human sacrifice.

I’m talking about god commanding fathers to sacrifice their children for his favor. Have you not read the bible? How arrogant of you to push something as foul as the bible without reading it first.

And anyway, the whole Jesus story is a description of human sacrifice no matter how you cut it. Although that was not what I was referring to.

Ah, but you see; after 10 or more generations we still look human with the same shape and form. I don’t have anymore legs, arms or anything else than what my ancestors had that makes me look anything different than human. Just because my nose maybe smaller or my eyes a different color, taller, shorter, bigger ears does not make me anything other than “look a little different” human being! I don’t stand any straighter than someone 2000 years ago. Actually when you get down to it,science proves creation more than any other “theory”! Your scientists also say the sun keeps getting further away from earth, don’t you think if the world was billions of years old it would have been REALLY HOT on earth. In fact at the rate they say it is pulling away it would have been sitting on top of us. And there is only one TRUE GOD and He is the living God and His name is Jesus Christ so I don’t have to worry. There is no other God!

Yes I have read the Bible and the father was tested and God did not make Abraham kill Isac. It was a test to show that Abraham loved God above all else, and HE PASSED THE TEST! God commanded alot of things from people so it would be written down as a teaching tool for us today.
I just didn’t see where you had ask the question about human sacrifice, that is why i did not understand where you were coming from. There were several people written about in the Bible that were killed for their faith, God does not promise everything is going to be a bed of roses. He just promises that if you stand firm and faithful you will be justly rewarded and it will all be worth it. People who ridicule me for my faith are just a part of Bible prophecy. For Jesus said, “In those days there will be scoffers”. So I stand firm in my beliefs for Christ gives me strength. And bog brother no one is damned beyond Jesus’s forgiveness. The precious Bible does not say that. In fact it says “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall have eternal life.” That whosoever even means you if you choose so. Just like the thief on the cross, at his final moment he found salvation through Jesus Christ.

Yes I have read the Bible and the father was tested and God did not make Abraham kill Isac. It was a test to show that Abraham loved God above all else, and HE PASSED THE TEST!

I wasnt talking about him either.

Your ignorance is showing. I was talking about Jepthah.

READ THE FUCKING BIBLE!!!!! AND REMEMBER!!!!! USING ALL CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS DOES NOT MAKE YOU MORE RIGHT!!!!!!!!

Now tell me what you see as positive about human sacrifice.

Rick:  You are being obtuse.  Only creationists expect to see major mutations after ten generations because they can’t lose that 6000 year timeline, so they have to load the math accordingly.  Actually, it’s kind of fun to watch YECs try to resolve the following dilemma:

A.) Noah had to fit all the animals in the world on an Ark of a fixed size (so that all the animals descended from them in their present form),

OR

B.) Animals actually did evolved from all the different prototypes that Noah set free from the Ark.  In a less than 6000-year timeline, which contradicts the claim that evolution doesn’t happen.

So basically it boils down to Noah having a floating Tardis or evolution actually being a fact (although the timelines are highly unrealistic for the amount of speciation that would have to occur.)

Also you are making a common YEC/fundy error in thinking that all you have to do is to disprove science to prove the veracity of the Bible.  If you were able to somehow sweep aside mountains of geological, astronomical, fossil, and genetic data, all you would have accomplished is falsifying those claims.  The question of whether the Universe was created by your God (which you can’t seem to separate from Jesus--a doctrinal position that would have had you beat up and/or killed in some locales in “Christian” history) or the Flying Spaghetti Monster is as unprovable as ever.  Why?  Because you can’t put God in a test tube or under a microscope.  You can’t infer him from radio signals or light shift.  Hell, you people can’t get the timeline straight between Book I and Book II of Genesis.  That’s a serious credibility problem right there.

By the bye, objects in space don’t move away from each other at a fixed constant.  Gravitational pull acts on the inverse of squares, and in any case rates of change are not constant.  (Put in mundaner terms, a dropped item picks up speed as it falls toward the Earth--i.e. the centers of gravity become closer.) Surely you remember that from Calculus?  Throw in the fact that the sun loses mass, which makes the math even more fun.  You can’t take the rate this year and multiply it by a few billion years and hope to come out with anything even close to a guessimate.  Calculus just doesn’t work that way.

So I suggest that if you want to keep you Universe neat and Algebraically simple, go back to your Bible that lists the value of pi as a simple 3.  But leave the actual science to the folks who have the chops to tackle the data with the right mental tools.  Parables work for storytelling, but they have no place in science.

I’t doesn’t say that God would not have delivered the Ammonites into Jephthah’s hands without promising that sacrifice. Jepthah made that promise to God himself. God did not tell him he would only do this if he sacrificed his daughter. All the Lord commanded of him was to go around and recruit an army. God may very well tell him that he was dumb and that he had everything taken care of already. People in the written about in the Bible made mistakes also. Sometimes Christians try to make promises to God that they should not make. They should just trust God to handle theif situations according to His will. For someone who claims to be a Atheist you know names in the Bible pretty well, there is hope there I see.

I’m an atheist because I know the bible very well.

And why didn’t god provide a sheep/goat/whatever at a suitable moment?

Anyway Jepthah is one of the heroes of the OT. One of the good guys.  Abraham was supposed to murder his son. He would have done it too if a goat hadn’t happened to wander by? What message does this send to christian parents who hear voices in their heads telling them to kill their kids? It has happened you know.

Plus your whole mythology is based on the human sacrificed of that Mexican guy. So tell me: What do you see as positive about human sacrifice?

And use paragraphs. The Enter key is your friend.

Really couldn’t tell you why God didn’t provide a animal. Only God knows why.
I don’t like the idea of human sacrifice and now that Jesus died there is no need for any kind of sacrifice whether it be animal or human. 
People who say God told them to kill their kids have other issues, God does not command murder. The Bible is actually pretty bloody, but it had to be that way for God’s people to flurish throughout the nations.
I don’t want to argue, I just state what I believe. The verbal attacks is what makes debates get out of hand on both sides of this issue.
There, I used a few paragraphs just for you..LOL. No, really to each his own. You have your beliefs and I have mine. One day I guess we will all find out which was right. All I know is if I am wrong I haven’t lost anything. If you are wrong you have lost everything. If you are willing to chance that...well that is definetely your choice.

Really couldn’t tell you why God didn’t provide a animal. Only God knows why.

Stop pushing your filthy book if you cannot defend it.

People who say God told them to kill their kids have other issues, God does not command murder.

He did command Abraham to murder his son even if he was just kidding. So tell me: What do you see as positive about human sacrifice?

Does not command murder huh? Read the damn bible at least once why don’t you?

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

-Numbers 31:17-18

KJV of course as I understand you fundies prefer that.

One day I guess we will all find out which was right. All I know is if I am wrong I haven’t lost anything. If you are wrong you have lost everything.

Pascal’s wager again. Been debunked on this site several times. Come up with something new I defy you.

All I know is if I am wrong I haven’t lost anything. If you are wrong you have lost everything

That’s called Pascal’s Wager - It has been disproven, in fact, there is a revamped version of the wager called the “Athiest’s Wager” with the outcome that if you believe in God then you have lost. - you won’t convince us by that route.....

edit: I guess I was writing mine as you posted above Julian, so mine is just a reiteration of one point of what you said. Oh well.

Ah, good old cranky Pascal’s wager. Here’s another one, straight from game theory too (and straight from Michael Martin, who summed it up for me allowing a lot of handy cut n’ paste):

Consider anything that you might do in order to get to heaven. Whether it is believing in God, or performing good works, or converting heathen, there are always two possible outcomes if there is a God. There are possible gods that would admit you to heaven because of what you have done, and there are possible gods that would consign you to hell for what you have done. Any action, then, could either lead to heaven or to hell. We therefore cannot decide what to do based on what consequences that course of action would have if there were a God.

We must, then, decide what to do based on what consequences that course of action would have if there were no God. We must assume that atheism is true in order to work out what actions are in our interests. Now it could be that religious belief brings sufficient happiness to those that possess it that it is better to be a believer than it is to be an atheist even if God does not exist; if that is the case then we are pragmatically justified in believing in God.

It is plausible to think, however, that if God does not exist then the cost of religious observance outweighs its benefits, that in an atheistic universe it is better to be an atheist. Given that assumption, if any pragmatic argument is successful, it will not be an argument for theism but for atheism.

This revised version of the Wager would go something like this:

(1) It is possible that God exists and it is possible that God does not exist.
(2) If one believes in God then if he exists then one either receives an infinitely great reward or an infinitely great punishment and if he does not exist then one loses little or nothing.
(3) If one does not believe in God then if he exists then one either receives an infinitely great reward or an infinitely great punishment and if he does not exist then one gains little or nothing.
(4) It is better to either receive an infinitely great reward or an infinitely great punishment or gain little or nothing than it is to either receive an infinitely great reward or an infinitely great punishment or lose little or nothing.
Therefore:
(5) It is better not to believe in God than it is to believe in God.
(6) If one course of action is better than another then it is rational to follow that course of action and irrational to follow the other.
Therefore:
(7) It is rational not to believe in God and irrational to believe in God.

Furthermore, I think an amazing amount of authority could be brought to the argument against the idea that “belief in religion has no cost.” That’s simply not bound by any rational exercise of thought, since nearly everything has some cost involved be in in time or effort or by applying it as cost to other, contrary, beliefs.

Very nice post MisterMook but there’s no point. He may read it, but unless some fundie has already prepared an answer for him he’ll probably discard it mentally.

Fundies have a mental barrier that prevents information that is inconsistent with their worldview from ever reaching their brains. They may read and even understand some of it, but it never enters their conscious minds.

Am I being too harsh?

I’t doesn’t say that God would not have delivered the Ammonites into Jephthah’s hands without promising that sacrifice. Jepthah made that promise to God himself. God did not tell him he would only do this if he sacrificed his daughter.

So why didn’t God step in and say, “Ha!  Pysche!” like he did with Abraham?  You can’t just shrug and say, “Oh, well: he had to let free will take its course,” because God obviously did something to sway the course of events to defeat the Ammonites.  So the quid-pro-quo is glaringly obvious in the narrative. 

How many examples does it take before you realize that you worship a psychopath?  (Thankfully a fictitious psychopath, or he’d have a lot of ‘splain’ to do after wasting all those parlor tricks on guys like Jonah, then sitting on his hands through Crusades, pograms, ethnic cleansings, etc.)

But Julian’s spot-on:  Stop peddling your faith if you can’t at least come up with a good rationale for the wholesale murder and enslavement of innocents.  (Not to mention the implicit concubinage in the Numbers passage.  Funny how it’s not “adultery” in either the Bible or the Q’uran to have concubines.  Again, how conveeeenient for a male-dominated society...)

Am I being too harsh?

Nah! They say the same things about us non-believers - that we won’t listen to reason.

Hrumph! Reason Schmeason - If a theory is demonstratably flawed you need to either fix it, or discard it. Don’t shout about it thinking the louder you are the truer your theory is.

I’ve read my Bible. That was not murder, that was all out war to gain back what was taken. They had to purify the land. They even messed that up by not killing all that they were supposed to. Your lip service statements show me why I am so happy to be one of God’s people. And I don’t really care what or who’s so called wager it is, it is truth. You will either be right or I’ll be right, there is no wagering about it. If you all don’t think there is a God then why do you get so scared and mad when someone talks about it. I think you have doubts, I think that is why it bothers you so much that you revert to swearing and attacks. You wouldn’t be reading the Bible if you weren’t trying to figure something out.
Anyone can log on to a website and look and find something in the Bible. You have to actually read the whole story to from front to end to find out why certain things had to happen as they did. You can’t just pick out one verse that sounds like it will make your point, you have to use the Bible in it’s entirity. Your Blasphemy is not hurting anyone but yourself.

Rick:

Folks get upset in the same way that people get upset when they’re hanging out and someone crashes the party and wants to bang on about something that has no appeal to any of the original group.  I have a co-worker who likes to hijack other people’s conversations and “bless” us with the benefit of his long-winded opinions/anecdotes.  He’s loathed for precisely that reason.  I don’t troll Christian websites out of simple courtesy.  You picked this fight--don’t whine when someone else finishes it.

War NEVER purifies, whether it kills innocent or soldier.  It’s no wonder that the crew here is “attacking.” Not only is your deity a sick bastard--so are you for agreeing with his so-called purpose.  I didn’t think I’d need to further reminders of why I dumped even my (very mild) Methodism at a rather young age.  But you’ve managed to instill a revulsion that even the televangelists and theocons can’t manage.  Eternity in Hell would be preferable to spending it with your Psychopath-in-the-Sky, or cheek by jowl with fanboys like you.

I’ve read the bible four times. From end-to-end. My blasphemy is not intended to hurt anyone (although I don’t care if it does). It certainly does not hurt me.

It was murder. It includes killing al the children and the adult women post-war and then taking the virgins as sex slaves to be raped regularly by god’s army. Read the god-damned bible and then tell me: What do you see as positive about human sacrifice? Still haven’t answered that.

And I don’t really care what or who’s so called wager it is, it is truth. You will either be right or I’ll be right, there is no wagering about it.

You’re simply repeating yourself. From repeating the claims of other fundies you are now reduced to repeating your own statements.

If you all don’t think there is a God then why do you get so scared and mad when someone talks about it. I think you have doubts, I think that is why it bothers you so much that you revert to swearing and attacks.

I have no doubts. Calling you a moron is the truth: It isn’t swearing. No one is scared or mad. Correcting incorrect statements and claims != swearing OR being mad. In my case it’s more a matter of mocking, pointing and laughing than attacking.

You wouldn’t be reading the Bible if you weren’t trying to figure something out.

I was trying to figure out why you morons worship a book written by stone age goatherds. It’s very interesting to understand the fundie mindset.

Oh and you’re not one of god’s people. You are a liar and a deceiver. I know because Odin told me.

It’s a good thing I can’t leave comments while at work as I’ve been following this thread via email for most of the day.

Rick is just another mindless sheep spewing the same nonsense we’ve heard time and again. There isn’t an original thought in his head and it’s clear he has no understanding of the scientific theories he criticizes. He is incapable of holding a rational discussion or of answering any of the challenges put forth to him because he’s following the same script all the other True Believers follow. I’ve been able to predict just about every response he’s had so far.

It’s kind of sad and I feel sorry for the man, but what can you do when someone refuses to use what few brains he apparently has for anything other than wishful thinking?

Psychopath-in-the-Sky

stone age goatherds

That’s a bit harsh. Bronze age.

The Enter key is your friend

No, the Barman down the King’s Head is my friend. At least while I have money. Then he stops giving me beer. Which is unfriendly.

Rick all we want is some proof that your god did it. Not ‘I can’t imagine it any other way’. Not a book, because books can be wrong. Solid evidence.

I leave you with one final thing. Read 2 Peter chapter 3. It explains this situation today. I hope someday the scales over your eyes will fall away. I hold true to my faith. As the apostle Paul says, “I will fight the good fight”. If you refuse to believe you will never understand the things of God. Once your eyes are opened to the truth you will only then be able to start understanding what God has for you.
Human sacrifice- If God demanded it then there is a positive to it. The killing of of people in the Bible that God demanded was to cleanse the world of those people for purpose of building His kingdom.
So long, gotta go.

See? He has nothing to say that’s worth hearing. He doesn’t understand we’ve all read the Bible and found it unconvincing and as such asking us to read a specific passage because “it explains this situation today” just demonstrates what a complete idiot he is to the rest of us.

He’s deluded and it’s rotted his brain to the point that he can’t even come up with a single reasonable argument to support his beliefs. Sadly, there’s a lot like him out there.

Human sacrifice- If God demanded it then there is a positive to it.

Thank you for demonstrating exactly why christianity and the christian god are so evil, repulsive and disgusting to anybody with any functioning sense of ethics.

Les- I am so glad you think I have a rotting brain, makes me realize I do stand out for Christ. I would have it no other way. I would be glad to be found guilty of being a Christian. You prove my point about you “so called” athiest’s getting nervous and shows your uncertainty.
You can’t just read the Bible, you have to live the Bible to find it convincing. It’s like just reading the bottle of medicine and then not taking it. It won’t do you any good unless you actually take it. You have to read it, think about it and try to put some of it to use and see what the results are. If I am wrong then there has been a whole lot of smarter people than me that have been wrong through the years, and a whole lot of people smarter than you.
You can cut me down with words, use profanity in your statements, think I’m a complete idiot but I will never be convienced that you can not be changed if God decides to change you. You may very well someday have a brush with truth. God loves everyone and does not want to see anyone perish. His patience will run out someday though, after he has given all the time he has alotted. When you are a Christian things happen in your life to prove that God is there. I have had countless prayers answered. I have also had countless ones not answered the way I wanted, but that’s ok apparently it wasn’t God’s will.
You can’t just be a knower of the word, you have to be a doer of the word. If my statements have been so predictable because others have said the same thing then that’s good. I have also heard all the same things from people like you as well. You just use the same name calling and the same insults to bash us. You have no proof your theory is correct either. Scientist’s can make anything up they want, they write the formulas, they invented the so called carbon dating. Although, the flood in Noah’s days certainly explain a lot more about things than you want to admitt. By the way I hope you all have a merry Christ-mas.

Didn’t you say you were leaving? Although I suppose an advocate of human sacrifice would hardly balk at lying.