A few difficult questions.

Posted by Bachalon on Saturday, November 06, 2004 at 10:36 AM. Read 1376 times. Tags:
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As a budding psychologist with little restraint and plenty of opportunity, I’ve found myself irritated with answers to several questions that I feel warrant more consideration than they are given when I ask.

Some people brush them off as unsettling, if harmless, ‘what if...’ type questions. Others have given me answers quick while getting progressively more angry with each one. A woman I asked got so upset that she had her husband threaten to beat me up for asking her about the ‘psycho-baby question.’

Even I’ve spent much time agonizing over all the possible meanings of the answers that people give, everyone from my mother, to some close friends, to random strangers. The conclusion I’ve reached is that people are selfish, but in a way that they aren’t accustomed to.

Think about this: Why did you have children? Barring a mandate from god, I’m willing to bet it was because you wanted to, because you wanted a family.

I’m not saying that child-rearing isn’t a noble endeavor, but it seems that the motives are less than altruistic. Be honest, do we really think our children are going to cure cancer? To decipher time travel? To answer the question of existence?

Now think about this: What if you knew with absolute certainty that your first child is going to be murdered before he or she is twenty-five. The specifics only dictate that it’s the most agonizing and excruciating death you can imagine. You don’t know where or when, only that it will occur in the future. Even if you have more than a single child, the first born will be dead. Will you still have the child?

If so, why? I’ve heard parents say they would die for their children, but would you willingly send someone into a death you wouldn’t wish on someone else?

Now consider this: Your first born child is going to grow up to be a serial murderer. Regardless of how you choose to raise the child, he or she is going to horribly kill 17 or more people before age forty. Would you still have the child?

If so, why? Would you be willing to face his or her victims in court and tell them that you knew this was going to happen, but allowed it anyway?

I’m interested to hear how you all answer.

Comments:

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Justice United States Posted on 11/07/2004 at 01:30 PM

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I could give myself a headache with the infinite possibilities.

I have three; the first and last unplanned. But I gave birth to all three because I wanted them, and because I felt given this opportunity I could put three good people into a world in need of them.

But the questions you ask have infinite possibilities. What if I knew my child would die the horrible death, but that death would turn out to be the one with enough evidence to stop the murderer who killed 13 before and otherwise bound to kill 25 after in the same horrible way? Before I had any one of them, I might have thought I would still choose to have them. But now that I see their faces and know what their little arms feel like around me, I’d have to say screw you guys, save yourselves!

What if I knew one would be a serial killer? Well, who would that child now grown kill? Would s/he kill innocent people, or would s/he take a liking to killing child molestors? Some of the possibilities would sway my decision.

When I was young, I befriended some kids others would look at and feel sorry for because they had to live the way they did. But you know what? Every one of them were happy to be alive.

Another thought I have is this: If in the future some catastrophic event occurs that wipes out 5.5 billion people, then people like me will be heros, as we will have ensured the number required for the survival of the human race. Heh.  cool smirk

Most importantly, a person who throws out a post like this is obviously curious about what is in the minds of people—and regarding a pretty tough subject. I think that is an excellent psychologist in the making.

Brock United States Posted on 11/07/2004 at 06:36 PM

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This is a “breeder” specific bunch of questions so I feel a little out of place even commenting, but I will. Though I’ll probably never have one myself (though if GeekMom wasn’t kidding...), I have to live with the ones you guys have.

Don’t have a child if you believe you have the inalienable right or extreme inclination to mold him or her to your exact vision of a successful entity. When you try too hard, the results you get are too often anathematic.

Serial killers and anti-socialistic types are made not born and any disease/defect potentially can be conquered.

Azzy United States Posted on 11/07/2004 at 07:47 PM

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First of all, I do not have any kids so these comments may seem uninformed to you.  I really think that the first question about having them die at at 25, that I would have a child if there is a possibility that they could help someone even in the most minute manner, even if I knew they were going to be killed, cause really if they end up bad they wont live that long, poetic justice happens everyday.  I think that if I knew that the child would kill a whole bunch of people I would not have the kid because in my little nieve world I would not have kids just because I wanted them there is the thought of our children thriving in something they do or humanity benefiting from their existence. Do not forget that people have children for all the wrong reasons in some cases but most have them with good intentions.

shana Japan Posted on 11/07/2004 at 08:32 PM

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Couple of comments:
yeah I am also going to faf out on the debate and say that if it’s predestined that your first child will do X, isn’t it also predetermined that you will have a first child?  I’m just saying.  Oedipus, anyone?

Secondly,
Of course it’s a selfish decision.  I think it damn well oughta be.  I am waiting to have kids until I want to spend all the time and effort it takes instead of popping one out because my dad thinks it’s my duty.  My life is my time and I’ll be damned if I’ll give that time up unless I really want to.  IMO, this prevents me from having a kid for the wrong reasons: they are cute, I have a biological alarm that goes off every time I see a kid, etc etc. and it prevents me, to some extent, from messing up my potential kids’ lives by not being ready to be a mom. 
If you have kids for altruism’s sake, what does that mean?  That you’re doing it for the good of the future child, even if you don’t want a child?  Then you’re likely to get into the sort of situation where you give give give and never receive and you end up unhappy and unsatisfied because you’ve given all of your time to someone else.  If you don’t have that resentment, then you must not have felt that strongly about it.  18 years is a long bout of selflessness.
If you’re doing it for the good of the future child and you want a child anyway, then is it really altruism?  Does altruism cease to exist once volition is expressed?

Personally, I really want to stick around for the next 1000 years or so to see what happens.  Sadly, I cannot.  My kids will go on to do great things and see amazing things and that is as close as I can get.  Selfish?  Maybe.  But that’s the psychology of propogation of the species.  We’ve built a big cultural mess on top of plain biological need.

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Les United States Posted on 11/07/2004 at 09:42 PM

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Even I’ve spent much time agonizing over all the possible meanings of the answers that people give, everyone from my mother, to some close friends, to random strangers. The conclusion I’ve reached is that people are selfish, but in a way that they aren’t accustomed to.

As someone else has already pointed out it could be argued that every action you undertake could be considered to have an element of selfishness to it no matter how altruistic it might appear on the surface. I consider myself a pretty decent fellow and I’ve been known to go out of my way to help others, but given a few moments thought I can provide you with several reasons why I did these things that could be considered selfish on my part.

The real question is: Is being at least somewhat selfish always a bad thing? Selfishness has gotten a bad rap for a long time, but the truth is that we all need to take time every now and then to devote to ourselves in some fashion be it just some peace and quiet off on our own to going out and buying a little something something just because we want to. People who never think of themselves and always try to put everyone else first often seem to be some of the most miserable people I’ve ever met.

Now, with regards to the other questions you ask:

Think about this: Why did you have children? Barring a mandate from god, I’m willing to bet it was because you wanted to, because you wanted a family.

I had never intended to have children as I didn’t think I would turn out to be a particularly good father, but, through a series of events too lengthy to go into at the moment, I ended up becoming a father anyway despite my intentions. For the first 8 years of her life she lived with her mother until her mother got herself into trouble and went to prison, then Courtney came to live with me. Since she first came into my life some 14 years ago I’ve been fortunate to learn that sometimes the things we think we don’t want end up being the things that matter the most in our lives and I’m not half as bad a father as I imagined I would be.

I’m not saying that child-rearing isn’t a noble endeavor, but it seems that the motives are less than altruistic. Be honest, do we really think our children are going to cure cancer? To decipher time travel? To answer the question of existence?

As I said I never wanted to have kids myself and I admit that part of the reasons I didn’t want to have kids were entirely selfish on my part.

Still, even if I wanted to have kids I don’t think I would be foolish enough to think they would be destined for greatness simply because they carried half my genes in their DNA. The truth is I have no idea what the future holds, but if they can grow up to be halfway decent people who lead generally happy lives that would be more than enough to make me feel it was worthwhile. If they were to end up curing cancer along the way, well that’s just icing on the cake.

Now think about this: What if you knew with absolute certainty that your first child is going to be murdered before he or she is twenty-five. The specifics only dictate that it’s the most agonizing and excruciating death you can imagine. You don’t know where or when, only that it will occur in the future. Even if you have more than a single child, the first born will be dead. Will you still have the child?

If so, why? I’ve heard parents say they would die for their children, but would you willingly send someone into a death you wouldn’t wish on someone else?

The reason this question upsets so many people is because it’s a bit vague. Other than knowing that they’ll die in some unimaginably horrible fashion at the hands of another at the age of 25 you provide us no background on how we know this will certainly happen or how much other info we have about our child’s future. I could sit here and rationalize all manner of reasons for both possible answers depending on what other information I do or don’t have about my child’s future life. Even if the only thing I would know for certain is that they’d die horribly I could still rationalize a good reason for both going and ahead and not going ahead with the having the child.

In short, without actually going through that sort of situation where I’d have a better idea of what the circumstances are I can’t begin to give you a proper answer because I don’t know how I’d decide. There are too many other variables unaccounted for.

Now consider this: Your first born child is going to grow up to be a serial murderer. Regardless of how you choose to raise the child, he or she is going to horribly kill 17 or more people before age forty. Would you still have the child?

If so, why? Would you be willing to face his or her victims in court and tell them that you knew this was going to happen, but allowed it anyway?

This question is too unrealistic to glean anything from the answer. As someone has already pointed out: Serial killers aren’t born, they’re raised. The idea of there being nothing one can do in how they raise the child to avoid them becoming a serial killer has no basis in reality. Being that it’s unrealistic the most obvious answer would be that I wouldn’t have the child, but that doesn’t really tell you anything about me. You may have well asked me if I would have had the child if I knew ahead of time that he would sprout wings from his back and go on to form a cult that takes over the world.

Impossible questions are easy to answer, but they don’t say much about us.

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All I know is the wine lasts longer when you don’t gotta share it with someone
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grey United States Posted on 11/07/2004 at 10:17 PM

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if i had that knowledge ahead of time, i can’t say what i would do. 

i believe a major reason people have children is for insurance...so that when they’re old and no longer able to care for themselves, they might have someone to care for them.  long after all of their friends have long been dead, they will have their children and their children’s children to keep them from becoming lonely.

Bachalon United States Posted on 11/08/2004 at 12:13 AM

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Fantastic! I broke thirty comments. Too bad I feel like an idiot now that I’ve had my ass handed to me on a silver platter.

Brock, I hear ya, I’ve thought about these questions even though both my boyfriend and I (yes, I’m gay) don’t even care for children. The reason being that I felt I couldn’t ask them without taking the time first to think about my answers.

Azzy United States Posted on 11/08/2004 at 12:27 AM

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I think everyone has had a few good points, there are positives in being selfish (as Les pointed out) and it is true that it gets a bad rep, but it is not about being selfish and you should have a biological alarm go off in your head when you see a child because really it is your duty to reproduce why would you not, could anyone inform me on a different reason we dwell on this planet so damn long?

THere was a discussion in my philosophy class on a similar topic.  I have never seen so many inraged college students, reproduction is a touchy subject. I believe if the circumstances are right there should be a yearning to complete the proverbial “circle of life”.

And insurance is just a perk of having a kid (though not guranteed) because even if you do not our lovely government is set up to take care of any needs that you may have, it is now their resoponsibility.  How many daughters/sons do you know that do not take care of their parents I know quite a few.

shana Japan Posted on 11/08/2004 at 03:10 AM

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Bachalon, I don’t think anyone meant to make you feel one-upped.  Besides ZB’s unfounded comment, most people seemed to enjoy addressing this question from many aspects.  I think sometimes the best discussions can start from these sorts of questions...in fact, I think we have a pretty interesting discussion here…

Azzy, if you think that’s all we’re up to, you’re missing out on a lot.  Repro may be the proximate reason, but it says nothing of the ultimate reasons we are here…

Even though we have that insurance in the form of social sec, it sucks ass, quite frankly.

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Zachary Braverman Japan Posted on 11/08/2004 at 06:31 AM

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Besides ZBユs unfounded comment, most people seemed to enjoy addressing this question from many aspects.

I guess Shana is right. I was feeling particularly like an a**hole when I posted that. Then again, if you can’t make posts like that on a forum called SEB, where can you?

GeekMom United States Posted on 11/08/2004 at 07:58 AM

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It never crossed my mind to expect that my children would take care of me in my old age.  Some cultures still work that way, but certainly not ours.  And besides, once you become a parent you realize that the most unpredictable force in your LIFE is your children.  You can’t force them to do or be anything, and you certainly can’t expect them to be around 30 or 40 years later.

(Full disclosure:  I *did* move my family back to my home town a few years ago to help take care of my aging parents.  But they never asked it of me.)

Les United States Posted on 11/08/2004 at 08:11 AM

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Bachalon, try not to take the responses too personally. One thing I’ve learned about blogging is that you need to have a decently thick skin. As much as many people agree with me, there are just as many who tell me what a dumbass I am for thinking the way I do. And it’s not like I haven’t had my regulars hand my ass to me when I said something particularly uncool. I’m thinking of my last entry about Tammy Faye Baker as an example. grin

I thought your post was good enough to let loose unto the world and you’ll note it took me several days of thinking it over before I responded to it. That’s a good thing. Means you really had me chewing it over in my head.

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All I know is the wine lasts longer when you don’t gotta share it with someone
All I know is my steak tastes better when I take my steak tastes better pill
-- I Feel Fantastic, Jonathan Coulton

amy United States Posted on 11/08/2004 at 08:48 AM

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Hi Bachalon,
Easy ones for me: N/A, no and no. I’m a volunteer over at vhemt.org.

GeekMom United States Posted on 11/08/2004 at 10:11 AM

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Wow, amy, that’s an interesting site ...

grey United States Posted on 11/08/2004 at 10:34 AM

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no kidding.  very radical.

Azzy -yeah, most people don’t take care of their parents when they get too old, but still maintain contact.  for the most part i’m sure that they don’t just lock them away in the old folks home and wait for them to die.  this gives them some much needed social contact (besides the nurses and other old people).  when their lives are basically over, they still have something to talk about.  how many times have you tried to have a convo with a really old person and it ended up being one-way because all they will talk about is their grandkids?  anyway, my point is that old age is lonely and children and grandchildren provide some degree of comfort.  so as bachalon suggested, i believe having children is selfish.

Skippy United States Posted on 11/08/2004 at 02:53 PM

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Here’s a question for you, and the non-breeders can join in on the fun.

If you know a child is certain to die a horrible death, etc., as first postulated, but that child has already been born, and is an orphan, and you have the opportunity to adopt (assuming no financial obstacles), would you?

It’s a little different now, isn’t it?

ellie United States Posted on 11/08/2004 at 09:00 PM

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Thank God the rest of you have debunked the whole premise.  Children are rarely planned yet thanks especially to contraception, always chosen (inadvertently or otherwise.)

I’m the 1stborn of parents who never could have even been friends but for several unknown reasons have never divorced & likely the only human reason for my existence is my mom’s “selfish” lonliness. I have no kids myself, but I’m young, & I’ve determined that by the time I’ve found someone I can’t live without & I get around to considering kids, I will only be half of the decision & the so many things will have changed anyway, so why bother?

Granted my approach to life is likely entirely different than many of you: I trust God is revealing more of Him/Herself to me as I am willing to take the effort to search.  But having babysat at infinetum & volunteered for 2 children’s organizations throughout college & being a teacher for the past few years, I’ve chosen to see that children are the funny x-factor in life, no matter what the human reasons they were conceived.

Kids bring people to God, push others away, & generally they are ALWAYS what proves we can’t control others: even when we try to manipulate, we often get the opposite of what we hoped for. Our worst hypocracies are revealed, yet we sporadically truly experience unconditional love.  Thank God Les has (likely) contributed another thinking female to this earth.

For those who are interested, “Leo” was a great movie on the effect of the cinrcumstances of conception on children.  I’ve learned through searching Scripture & contemplating my experiences, that I generally ignore/deny guilt as a REALITY, yet I generally feed guilt as a FEELING to give myself a false sense of control & focus on what I perceive to be the REAL guilt of others.  I’ve considered how devastating guilty FEELINGS can be if I didn’t identify them as false & move on to accepting forgiveness for what I’m REALLY guilty of.  I just actually hadn’t even thought much about guilt or blame in about 10 years.

Nicki United States Posted on 11/08/2004 at 09:32 PM

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For everyone’s info, Azzy is me, Nicki, but I never claimed to be a pro w/ computers…

Shana- I do think that my comment on the reproduction situation was a bit harsh.  There is more to life than that, but it is exhausting trying to come up with some higher cause that all of us are a part of in which we were put on this planet for.
Grey- I never claimed that the social security we have in this country is the preferred fiscal escape when you get old.  But if your kids do not step up to take the responsibility of you getting old there is always something that gurantees you not freezing/starving to death when you get senile and really old.

That is something that I am not facing now because I am only twenty so I am giving you the best ideas I can without experiencing the seemingly perplexing circumstance.  But it really frightens me and I am not looking forward to getting old…

Les United States Posted on 11/09/2004 at 12:02 AM

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Getting old isn’t so bad.

Oh who the hell am I kidding, it sucks in many ways.

But it’s not anything to be frightened of.

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All I know is the wine lasts longer when you don’t gotta share it with someone
All I know is my steak tastes better when I take my steak tastes better pill
-- I Feel Fantastic, Jonathan Coulton

shana Japan Posted on 11/09/2004 at 01:17 AM

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Azzy/Nicki--sorry if I made you feel attacked.  I wasn’t going for that.  I’m just not a fan of biological determinism...I think it sucks the color out of life smile
Obviously it is not my place to tell you what to think but I wanted to express my response.  Sometimes I end up sounding self-righteous without intending to...gotta work on that.  Things I would say in a conversation with a smile don’t always sound the same in type...even with the bust pudding gal smiling by proxy.

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“Like reindeer in the sky you can.”

Nicki United States Posted on 11/09/2004 at 02:18 AM

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Shana I completely understand. If you can say what you think you are a whole step ahead of a lot of people out there and as long as you do not just disregard the opposing comments, you can learn as well as educate others, you obviously made me think twice about what I had rashly commented on. Gotta go to bed I got class to early for this… See y’all cheese
Oh and Les, thanks for the reassurance about gettin old, but I’m pretty sure I am not going to enjoy it?.

Brock United States Posted on 11/09/2004 at 06:22 AM

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ellie, I don’t want it to seem that I’m attacking you purely for sport, but considering what I’m going to say; it may seem that way.

I’m surprised to learn that you are a teacher and find myself wondering what you teach. Not because you claim belief in a god, but because your points are often murky to me and your sentences structures can confuse me. You’re interesting to me, to be sure, but I often feel that I’ve misunderstood you.

Occasionally, it is an impossible challenge to decipher the thoughts and meanings behind what some write here, so I guess I’m disappointed that a teacher would present what I consider some of the poorer comment examples.

Just for an example; when you say something like “Kids bring people to God”, go ahead and explain why you think that is a truism. Help me to understand why you consider children shepherds of your faith.

Again, I’m not trying to discourage you. I simply think teachers should demonstrate higher standards of communication.

All in all, I’m always glad we hear from a wide range of thinkers and positions. I simply need to understand better what you’re actually saying.

And Bachalon, good thread subject. Don’t take my “I feel a little out of place” comment too seriously. I really only said it to fortify the suspicion that these are questions anyone can justify considering.

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