When I was younger I never wanted to be a dad.
I had children because my wife wanted them.

As for your other questions, no I would not have the child.

I have 6 kids, 3 are mine 2 are hers and one is ours.  My first G/F-wife got pregnant (unplanned) and I stayed with her and later we had 2 more as you say because we wanted too.

On your second question, the context is too vague, if I know they will die early do I also know the wil have children of their own by this point? etc etc. So I have to say yes as the limiting fact of an early death simply isn’t enough to hinder my choice. In your mention of altruism, it isn’t a guiding infuence in the decision. Doesn’t every person hope that they themselves or their offspring will have some positive effect on their society/species as a whole?  With this mindset Q3 is obvious with certain knowledge of the outcome.

Q3 the answer is No.  It is also easy to say, as you have no emotional attachment in this theoretical exercise to influence this question.

Good questions....

I’ve never wanted children, even when I was a little girl and my friends were playing mums and bubs, I never was interested.

I find it easier to decide not have the child who grows up to be a murderer, if it saves 17 lives.

I’m in two minds about the other question. I don’t want someone to die horribly, but I’d at least think about giving them the chance to have a short but happy life.

I don’t know how to respond to some of the “what if” questions but I do strongly believe that not everyone should have children, this is clearly obvious to us all. And the problem with that line of thinking is also clearly obvious.

IMHO way too many people have children for selfish reasons if they give it any real thought at all. The worst case is the “I just want to have a little baby, a little me (mini-me)”. This type of thinking is often rooted in the it will help my marriage, make my life better with little to no regard for the consequences, complications, and challenges of bringing an entire new human being (not just a cute little baby) into the world.

Other evidence of selfishness is the “ownership” issue. Children are not anyones property. They are placed in your charge and you are responsible to/for them and to society to teach them well and raise them to be non-harm-to-others (good) members of society. If you try to relive your own life through your child you are doing them a terrible disservice, they have their own way to travel in life. I go so far as to find naming a child after yourself to be the height of pointless vanity. Let the child have their own identity, without the pet (literally - buddy, junior, butch) names.

I have most likey not provided you with what you were looking for in way of a response. This is what your post triggered in me.

Hmm…

I have struggled with a similar problem for most of my adult life.

I have a genetic cancer that killed my mother at 32 and nearly killed me at 25. It is more probable that the gene that causes this cancer will be passed on to any child I have than not.

That is not to say they will GET the cancer, but they are highly likely to carry the gene, and from what I have seen about 70% of those who have the gene get the disease.

The disease is not curable, but there are operations to cut out the disease… to me that is not a cure, but a work around.

Now… being that there is a good chance that this gene will propogate to my offspring, so do I father any children? Espeically knowing what I went through to get well?

I have not answered it yet. It is not something I think anyone who is not in the position I am, or similar, can answer - which is why I find mental masturbation such as the questions here pitiful.

You can say that you think you know the answer, but you really don’t until the trigger is pulled.

As for me? As I do not know if I should have a child (with out genetic counciling and some help/input from a geneticist) I am going to pass on the questions… just wanted to point out that mental masturbation is fine to a point, but really do not show any reality because they are intellectual and devoid of the emotion of the situation if it were real.

Anyway… back to the hairy palms of the mind

I had children because I thought I was supposed to. (before anyone starts cracking wise - MrsDOF bore the children of course but we both raised them.)

Luckily none of us can know what will happen to our children.  We speed into the future greatly overdriving our headlights!  When I got married, I did not know:

- That I, a Christian minister, would come to disbelieve in God
- That family life would be such a struggle
- That I would have many jobs as a Bible major in college isn’t much use if you aren’t a minister
- That one of my kids would become a chemist, one a mathematician, and one a musician
- That I would wind up living in a town called “Normal”
- How hard it is to ‘let go’ as your kids grow up and how badly you can screw things up not letting go

Bog, I could write a looooong list of stuff I didn’t know.  Suffice it to say having kids made me realize what a complete dumbass I am and how fortunate it is when anything goes right.

So I really can’t do much with hypothetical questions.  Hope that helps.

Maybe it has to do with the NEED to have children.
My girlfriend had a mental and physical need to have children. AS for me , I wasn’t ready, therefore I did not have that inborn need to be a father at that time. But we now have a 2 year old boy and It is good to be a father. I sacrificed my teenage attitude of freedom for… Actually not much has changed since I am a father, I just have an extra friend around.
Bachalon, I don’t see any true answer to the questions regarding death or murder or even trying to figure out the future for our kids. I think it is good to avoid living in a world of fantasy but too much reality can also be damaging. Everybody has questions like the ones you mentionned but not everybody want to put them on the table.
Maybe it has to do with superstition.

Assuming (big assumption) a solid and irrefutable foreknowledge of this sort—no, to both questios.  My desire to spew forth my genes (and memes), and my vast enjoyment of my child, do not relieve me of that long-term responsibility.

I find it easier to decide not have the child who grows up to be a murderer, if it saves 17 lives.

But… what of those 17 lives? Would those all be “worthy” lives or could one or more be a serial killer?

This is something I have pondered on myself for many years. I have never had any children, not because I knew they’d be axe murderers, but because I am very aware that I have more to offer the world than more children.

After all it’s not like there’s a shortage of people on the planet. I have also always looked at children as a reponsibility, not an accessory to my family. Plus I had a pretty diabolical childhood myself, and I’d hate to pass that on to another person.

It makes me mad when I see parents who have the attitude of, ‘it’s my child, I’ll bring them up how I want to!’

Oh and no I’d not have any children if I knew their futures were mapped out for them, for good or bad.

I like what Serai has just said.

Just to add something to this subject.
In quebec, not 30 years ago a good portion of the population went to church often, immigrants were not as visibleas today. Most were catholic.
Not 70 years ago it was common to see families of 10 or 12 kids.
A 100 years ago every priest had the obligation of ENCOURAGING families to have more and more children. In the name of.....
Not that I want to talk about religion, I mean we are conditionned to want to have kids. This had being going on for 300 years + in this corner of the world.
An other example: Does anyone live in a town or city that does not want to increase its population.
More people, more services, more taxes.

Not having any kids will become a good thing onr day and even a necessity.(which will surely play a role in some social issues like the definition of marriage and....

I didn’t feel the need for children for a long time, and then one day I really started feeling that biological urge, such that I felt my life would not be complete without raising a child.  And I felt a need to have a child because I love my husband so much that I wanted little copies of HIM running around.  (Sure enough, both our girls look just like him. )

But in answer to your questions, no—if I KNEW that would happen, I would not have had them.

John, it’s amazing that you’ve survived a cancer like that, and you must be very brave and tough to have done so.  I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes knowing that I had a specific gene for a specific cancer.  I wish you luck.

I’m no psychologist, or more to the point, an evolutionary anthropologist, but I’ve come to believe that everything we do is dictated by a measure of selfishness. Even the noblest of deeds can be broken down to “I did it because it makes ME feel good.” But really, is any action selfless? I’ve read testimony of men in combat who jump on grenades or who run through gunfire to save a comrade and its hard to argue how these acts could be anything but selfless. It leaves one with two options. One, the act was commited to truly help another and that the brain of that individual overpowered instinct for a brief moment to allow him/her to do something entirely selfless. The other side of the coin is that this act was possibly commited in order to portray the individual as a hero or that they did it in order to gain a sense of self accomplishment.


As to the issue of bearing children, 20/20 aired a piece last night which spoke of how humans invariably have the “four year itch” and are designed to have a child every four years, each time with a seperate partner to allow variations in the gene pool. In short, humans will have children no matter what. My sister Kimberly suffered from Cystic Fibrosis, Diabetes, severe Scoliosis, and an Aspergillus infection which eventually lead to her death. Given the choice, I doubt my mother would have given birth to such a sick child, but then comes the question why? Was she motivated by her instincts as a mother and that she should not let her daughter suffer, or was she motivated by the consequences she faced as a mother of a daughter who would never grow to become a woman? I know I speak harshly of my sister, but that’s not my intent, and I know I will probably get flamed for taking such a cold, rational look at an issue so close to home, but still the question begs to be answered. Granted, I loved my sister very much and I cannot be sure if I would want to know the truth, but I have to admit I’m curious.

On a side note, if you think you could possibly be a carrier of the Cystic Fibrosis gene, get tested. It could be one of the most important things you’ll ever do.

My wife took something seriously that was poked at her in fun. Then she did it again. They tried to tell me where those rug-rats were coming from, but I didn’t want to believe them. Then she did it again, and as anybody with a rational mind knows, three is too many, so we divorced. Then I married a woman who had three of her own = the Brady Bunch. To quote a very wise man, “What the fuck are you people doing?” Five of the six have developed pretty good lives, all in different dirctions. One is still adrift, looking for the meaning in life (which is obviously to breed!) Suffering and joy are both facts of life and all of us will die some time. The key is to enjoy both suffering and joy and not take life too seriously. After all, you will not get out of it alive, anyway. IMPoe hit the “serial killer” senerio on the head (would all 17 lives be “worthy”?) and much of our greatest human achievements have come from people who suffered from one affliction or another. It seems that to become a great person you don’t need great friends, but great evil to overcome, in other words a great enemy. So, yes, I would probably procreate under both circumstances. Besides, like Scott Peterson, I’ve been a “horny bastard” since I was old enough to become horny.

Sorry for the mis-quote. It should have been, “What the fuck is wrong with you people?”

I’ll bite.

First, I don’t have any children...yet. But when the day comes, yes I’d like to have one/some.  Why?  Curiosity mostly.  I have enjoyed my life so far, both its great moments and its really sucky, why did I get out of bed this morning moments.  I’m curious to see what my possible future offspring will make of their turn. Who knows? They might actually find the cure for cancer, decipher time travel, or find the question for the answer of existance just prior to the Vogons demollishing Earth for an intergalactic highway.  Even if they don’t they still have their shot of accomplishing something, even if it is insignificant.

Second Question:  Yes, based on the argument that does one bad (ok REALLY bad) moment in one’s lifetime completely overshadow the sum of the remainder (see also first answer)?  I do have one major problem with this hypothetical as it presumes an universal predestiny.  Basically, through an infinite possible number of situations, only one predefined outcome is possible.  Making the predestined outcome dependent on the bolean of having a child or not seems antithetical to the question in general. As to the second part of this question, We all die.  Would I want someone to suffer? No.  But the question fails to account for the quality of the life in question or its impact on other’s lives.  Say this 25 year old prior to his/her escrutiating demise had saved, let’s say, 17 other lives from a horribly escrutiating death, do we condemn those 17 for the peace of mind that a possible offspring did not have to suffer do to nonexistence?  In the end, this question is too vague and has too many variables to provide a complete informed honest answer.

Question three:  I’ve already mentioned my grievance with this line of hypotheticals (see second answer).  My answer is yes, and here’s why.  First, to allow for the unknown time between birth and the impending rampage to pass.  Since there is no mention of the quality of this person’s life prior to killing of 17 people, it is unclear of what possible positive effects this person’s life may have had.  Second, the person inquestion supposedly always has a choice, I would inform this person of my knowledge and evidence.  Then, I would suggest that when the time comes to give fate the middle finger and try to avoid that outcome.  If they pull it off, yeah.  But according to the question they won’t be able to avoid it, so my counter question is whose fault would it be then.  The obvious answer would be me since I had the choice to not procreate.  But since we are dealing with predestiniation, how would I know that I really had a choice?  As far as facing the loved ones of those that would be murdered, not a problem.  1) If they truly believed that I possessed foreknowledge of what would happen, then they’d have to conscede that we have no control over our lives and take their aggression out on who does.  2) If the don’t believe that I had foreknowledge, then I would hope they understand that I, in no way, condone my child’s action and ask them which is worse, to have lost a loved one, or to have one who has caused so much misery in others.

In the end, this is how I would like to answer, but the cold dead fish of reason slapped against my face makes me contend that I would not truely know unless the situation really accured.  Though while we are on the topic of brain teasers, how about asking your questions again to all those who say “no”, but with a small modification.  Instead of would they concieve the child after the knowledge, set it up where conception has already taken place.  Then the question would be, “Would you allow the child to be born?”.  I wonder if they would still say no.

Question three:

Wow. Thanks for all the brilliant responses. I didn’t think anyone would actually take something like this seriously.

As per the variables, I left them vague for vagueness’ sake; if you were to consider everything what would your answer be. Now I now.

And now to be honest: I hadn’t considered the predestination factor that much.

Better luck next time, Bach…

I’m pretty amoral about all of this. I accept it to be (whether I am correct or not) that I am an inherently selfish person. I don’t see myself as better or worse than anyone else in the value of my actions except where my desires are concerned, and since I rarely am concerned with my morality, well…

I have one specific neural disorder, but a family history of medical complications of everything from cancer to alzheimers. If I were to have children, I acknowledge two rationalizations - the concept of free will and choice, on a surface level, or raw chemistry, which we’d end up making some excuse for later. It doesn’t really matter what the rationale is, because it doesn’t reflect anything more than the observer experience. When I make my decisions, by rationale, I don’t try to be any better than Hitler or worse than Christ. It just doesn’t matter. Thoughts, anyone?

Being a good psychologist requires being able to empathize with your patients.

I don’t think you’re going to be a very good psychologist.

I don’t think you’re going to be a very good psychologist.
That misses out a bit, being that this person (gender wasn’t really paid due attention on my part - I’ll call it ‘he’ for simplicity’s sake) wasn’t interviewing patients of any kind. It’s applying the logic outside the circumstance. It may be that ‘his’ empathy but incomplete knowledge of the subjects at hand jarred very sensitive areas of said person’s development and awareness of self. That may be a sign of particular talent, which if honed, could see a very productive psychologist.

Personally, I find it very easy to offend people by revealing realities to them they do not have the cognitive structures (rationale or whatever else you want to throw in here) to accept or adapt to. The truth, selectively viewed, is a dangerous thing, and knowing how and where to use it requires empathy. If ‘he’ can get everyone’s boyfriends trying to beat the crap outta ‘him’, I’d say ‘he’’s onto something. I don’t really encourage playing people’s mental strings (if only to cover my ass in saying so), but I don’t have a problem noting it as a way of pointing out this person’s potential.

You may think that but I’d like to point a few things out. First, I’ve been reading textbooks for fun since 15. Second, I’ve sat in on a few classes at a university not to far and from my leasiure reading know more than third year students. And third, I don’t give two tugs of a dead dog’s cock what you think.

I remember reading a story years ago by Paul Harvey in his book, The Rest Of The Story. Each little vignette pulled you into the story and the last paragraph was always a paradigm shifting zinger.

This one particular story was about 2 pregnant women. Both were pregnant out of wedlock at a time when it brought major shame and untold difficulties to their families. Both considered abortions even though in their day not only was it illegal but highly dangerous. Both chose to continue their pregnancies.

One woman was the mother of Leonardo DaVinci and the other was the mother of Adolph Hitler.

In the immortal words of Forest Gump… Life is like a box of chocolates… You never know what yer gonna get...

And third, I donﾕt give two tugs of a dead dogﾕs cock what you think.

That’s exactly the right attitude. Anyone who is disuaded from their dream because of someone else’s opinions isn’t likely to make it in the first place, in my not-so-humble opinion.

No, I absolutely wouldn’t have children, and no I didn’t have children myself though I’ve helped raise my stepsons.

I don’t believe that people have a selfish gene exactly, but there certainly is a reproductive imperative that is extraordinarily difficult to ignore.

In other words, I believe that the species has several built-in mechanisms that encourage us to reproduce despite all logical considerations. The world (and the worlds of all of us who said that we purposefully chose not to have children) would likely have been a very different place if we did not have very good birth control technology.

I’ll apologise for derailing your question a little Bachalon, but you’ve raised an interesting side question when you aked what you might do if your child would become a serial killer. So, let me ask you a couple of questions that are somewhat related to both this and your selfishness issue:

Psychologists have a pretty good handle on the anit-social personality disorder—there is a pattern of early behaviours that have surprisingly good predictive power. Though only a small percentage of anti-socials actually kill, I’d say that nearly all serial killers are anti-socials. Regardless of whether they kill, however, all are entirely without basic conscience, and all do horrific damage throughout their lives to nearly everyone who has the misfortune to interact with them for any period of time.

Keep in mind, that anti-socials cannot be redeemed or “fixed”, but that they can be trained to fake conscience (which usually ends up making them yet more dangerous). 

Should psychologists share this kind of information with parents?

What would you do if a psychologist told you that your child has an anti-social personality disorder?

As a society, what (if anything) should we do with anti-social children? Anti-social adult? Anti-social criminals?