9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals lets Pledge ruling stand.

Posted by Les on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 at 10:34 AM. Read 1225 times. Tags:
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In case you haven’t already heard, last Friday the full panel of judges in the 9th Circuit Court refused to reconsider the controversial Pledge ruling. President Bush and other politicians once again denounced the decision.

The court has since stayed it’s own decision yet again pending a hearing by the Supreme Court. Without that stay school children in 9 States would have ceased reciting the Pledge as a daily ritual on March 10th. John AsshatAshcroft immediately went about showing how ignorant of the issue he truly is:

“The Justice Department will spare no effort to preserve the rights of all our citizens to pledge allegiance to the American flag,” Ashcroft said.

“We will defend the ability of Americans to declare their patriotism through the time-honored tradition of voluntarily reciting the pledge.”

First off, there’s nothing stopping all citizens from reciting the Pledge if they want to. You can recite whatever version of the Pledge you want pretty much wherever you want. There’s also nothing stopping the schools from having kids recite the Pledge of Allegiance in it’s original form, which does not include the words “under God”. The schools just aren’t allowed to use the current version because the words “under God” turn it from being a patriotic expression into a religious prayer of sorts.

Secondly, many schools require reciting the Pledge which makes the activity no longer a “voluntary” act.  By why quibble about facts when knee-jerk rhetoric is so much easier to work with? I shouldn’t be surprised, Ashcroft has shown he has very little understanding of most of the issues he likes to rant about.

E.J. Montini of The Arizona Republic newspaper had a very good op-ed piece about this issue yesterday. In it he talks about a conversation he had with a school teacher who had brought up the Pledge issue with her students after word of the court’s decision to let their ruling stand became public. In this discussion the teacher brought up the fact that her students, and probably a great number of other people in America, don’t really seem to understand just what the hell they’re pledging allegiance to.

“The kids were split on whether the ‘under God’ part belonged in the pledge or not,” the teacher said. “Most found it perfectly OK. Even good. One student asked how we’d feel if it said “under Allah.” It was a good discussion. Until I asked what I thought was a fairly simple question.” She very innocently said, “By the way, who can define ‘republic,’ as in when we say ‘the republic for which it stands?’”

Silence. No more hands in the air. No more talk. So, the teacher began asking specific kids. “One told me confidently, ‘Republic means a democracy,’ “ she said. “When I answered, ‘No, not really,’ he looked shocked.”

Right now you’re probably scrambling for a dictionary. You learned this. Maybe. Me, too. Luckily, the teacher was kind enough not to ask for the answer. She continued, “I talked about how in a republic individuals are vested with rights, as we are, while in a democracy the majority simply rules. I spoke of how the U.S. has elements of both systems. I talked about how individual rights are what keep us from a kind of mob rule. In a democracy the citizens are the government. In a republic, the government works for the citizens. It has authority to govern, but it cannot trample on individual rights.”

For example, an individual’s right not to have religion forced upon him.”

I can relate to this teacher as I have tried to explain that same simple concept to folks who have challenged my support for the Pledge ruling and I’ve asked many of them that same question with regards to what a “Republic” is. Most haven’t a clue. When I explain what it is and how it works, that whole individual rights thing, a lot of them don’t care if that’s how it’s “supposed” to work. They can’t seem to reconcile their need to enforce some form of mandatory expression of patriotism with the fact that in it’s current form it violates the concepts behind the very thing they would supposedly be pledging their allegiance to. I think a better Pledge for these people would go something like this:

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag for a System of Government with precepts I have no intention of actually honoring. And to the Mob Rule that will arise due to my willful ignorance, which will guarantee liberty and justice, only for those of like mind. The rest of you should either fall in line with us or go to some other country where they actually try to respect the rights the government claims you have.

Comments:

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kat United States Posted on 03/05/2003 at 04:46 PM

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rock on les!! woo hoo! I like your version of the pledge. Very true.

Eric Paulsen United States Posted on 03/05/2003 at 07:08 PM

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Now if that were the pledge I would not only understand it, but would stop complaining when our ‘supposed rights’ were trampled, or amended, or just plain ignored. Of course I would be moving to Canada but then I half expect that I might just do that before I die anyway.

Daniel Jaffe United States Posted on 12/07/2003 at 06:09 PM

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Shall we all get in line and pander to the dominant paradigm? America is waking up, but hopefully we won’t realize too late that we slept far too long.

nowiser United States Posted on 12/07/2003 at 08:14 PM

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Hey Les, Can I borrow your pledge!?!?!  That is so cool that I want to post it on my office door. 

(Right under my poster of a brownshirt carrying a Nazi Flag, and captioned:  One Fuhrer. One Nation. One Newschannel.  Fox News-- the only official newschannel of the Fatherland.)

I think I might actually memorize it so that I can recite it on demand.

Les United States Posted on 12/08/2003 at 03:37 PM

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Nowiser, you go right ahead and use it if you wish. I’ve not actually tried to recite in public myself, but I’m sure it’ll get a positive reaction wherever you should choose to use it.

John Pusinsky United States Posted on 02/10/2004 at 04:55 AM

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We are a nation founded in and by Christian faith. Their is only one way and that is through Jesus Christ our LORD. Not through Allah, Isis, Mary or other false pagan gods, only by accepting that Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. GOD has blessed our country because we bless Israel. When the time comes for GOD to call his people home. He will be free to deal with all peoples and countries that remain. The fact that christians are here in this world is the only reason GOD restrains his wrath. This is not a joke, I know you will dismiss this but later when it is quite, sit and think and try to hear the voice of GOD. He is there waiting for you to answer him. But he will only wait a short time longer friend. The time is running out.

Les United States Posted on 02/10/2004 at 05:46 AM

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Blah, blah, blah. I swear these people have a little 3x5 card that they carry around with them with the same bunch of misinformation on it that they whip out anytime they feel like doing a little holier-than-thou ranting.

No, we are not a nation founded in and by Christian faith. Not only is this patently not true to anyone with even a casual knowledge of American history, but it’s also embodied in national law. The rest of this claptrap is standard only-my-god-is-the-real-god-and-he’s-pissed-and-he’ll-get-you-if-you-don’t-convert-cause-he’s-coming-back-real-soon-now scare tactics.

OK, you’ve done your preaching for the day. You can turn your little Jeebus pin right side up now.

John Pusinsky United States Posted on 02/27/2004 at 10:53 AM

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WHO KILLED JESUS ?

Ask yourself these three questions “Who killed Jesus ?” , “Who was Jesus ?”
and “Why did Jesus have to die ? “

Who was Jesus?

Jesus was the son of God.(See Matthew 1:20-21)
God created him in human form to live a sinless life. (See 2 Cor 5:21, 1
John 3:5, 1 Peter 2:22 )
Through Jesus God was able to know what it was like to be a man.

Why did Jesus have to die ?

Jesus’s life was planned from the begining. (See John 3:16, Matthew 20:28
Acts 4:28 )
Since the begining of time the Bible sets out the need of blood atoning
sacrifice to cover sin.
When Adam and Eve first sinned agisnt God he clothed them with animal
skins.Well the skins came from an animal that was slain. Becuase they needed
to have their shame covered. (See Genesis 3:21; 4:4 )
Because Jesus was sinless he was a once and for ever perfect sacrifice. (See
Colossians 1:22)
Jesus died and was raised up from the dead to live for ever and ever. He
conquered death.(See Matthew 28:6, Colossians 1:22, John 14:1-3, Romans
4:25)

Who killed Jesus ?

Jesus died for our sins. (See John 3:16, Matthew 20:28, Mark 9:12; 9:31;
10:33-34, 2 Cor. 5:21 )
Key word “our”
We are all sinners. (See Romans 5:12, 1 Cor 15:22, Eccl 7:20, Rom 3:23,
Prov 20:9 )
So who killed Jesus ?
You killed Jesus, I killed Jesus, we all killed Jesus. Why ?
Because we are sinners and he died as a atoning sacrifice. ( See 1 Peter
2:21; 3:18; 4:1 )
His blood was the price for our sins, once and for all.
If we accept that fact and ask him to forgive us. Then we are made sinless.
(See John 3:16)

Les United States Posted on 02/27/2004 at 05:44 PM

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And your point is… what? I’ve already read the Bible several times, John. Cutting and pasting passages I’m already familiar with seems a silly activity for you to engage in. Was this supposed to convince me of something? Or do you just enjoy going around and pasting Bible verses into blog comments for no apparent reason?

Michael F. United States Posted on 03/31/2004 at 12:03 AM

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Dear Mr Evil,

Thank you for the succinct explanation of the pledge.

~M

the pledge Great Britain (UK) Posted on 03/31/2004 at 03:28 AM

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Democracy/Republic
I actually believe that due to a number of factors, voter apathy being a major one,here in the UK as well as in the USA,we are actually living in stealthy Plutocracies.
sincerely n

GeekMom United States Posted on 03/31/2004 at 09:02 AM

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Who killed Jesus?  I did.  And I’ll kill him again if he shows his punk face here.  There.  Feel better?

Pass me the Christian baby blood, would you?

(This is what dear Mel is angling for, only he pretends he’s the victim.)

John Pusinsky Martyr Maker United States Posted on 07/02/2004 at 07:13 AM

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I must vote for George W. Bush. Every terrorist, liberal and homosexual wants Bush to lose the election. They want us to cut and run from Iraq, then from Afghanistan, and then from the Middle East. Their goal remains the same: the destruction of Israel and America. I am thankful that I can vote for Bush.

I pray that a terrorist attack happens before Nov. Elections and it takes out San Francisco or some other queer homo city. This will punish America and bring it into line. 9/11 should many of us the power of the LORD and many were led to Christ. It would be wonderful for another big, really big attack to take place and many more will be led to Christ. The country would fall behind Bush, law and order would be enforced in our country. Liberal judges could be gotten rid of and strong Christian Judges could be placed on the courts. Our nation could go forth and destroy the islamic filth that infects our world.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 07/02/2004 at 07:34 AM

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I pray that a terrorist attack happens…

Eeeewwww!  You want a whole bunch of people to die in a senseless attack so the survivors will be frightened into following your god?

Maybe that whole “god” thing is the problem to begin with.

Les United States Posted on 07/02/2004 at 08:00 AM

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I thought he was just a comment troll at first, but then I checked out his website. Nope, he’s a genuine radical fundamentalist asshole.

The great irony about people like “John Pusinsky Martyr Maker” is they can’t see how they’re just as evil as the people they’re railing against. From where I’m standing there’s no difference between that asshole and Osama bin Laden. Different religions, same dumbfuck attitude. He’s no different than the religious wingnuts who flew the planes into the Trade Center towers.

Well, there’s at least one difference: John probably doesn’t have the balls to sacrifice himself in such a manner for the glory of his imaginary friend. No, he’d rather just use the power of government to slaughter anyone who disagrees with his religious delusions.

GeekMom United States Posted on 07/02/2004 at 08:40 AM

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That’s it.  I’m starting a Terrorist Liberal Homosexual Club.  I guess I’ll have to start sleeping with women, though (maryh?), and I’ll have to blow something up.  Where was that guy’s website again?  Who’s with me?

(Yeah, it’s interesting how the lead “martyr makers” only want to make OTHER people martyrs.  They’re too wussy to stand up for what they claim to believe in.)

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Michelle United States Posted on 11/15/2006 at 09:39 AM

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You know what all of this is pathetic especially Mr. Evil and Geekmom.  How can anyone call themselves a mom and believe in nothing but their own selfishness. Go ahead make fun of people but you are the reasons that drugs are chosen more then babies, or pets are before human life. You are also the reason that everything is acceptable I ask you if everything is acceptable to you then why not GOD!! Oh I get it everything but God or Christians because you are whimps!!! I pitty you and hope you wake up to raise your children right and not just let them make all their own choices thats whats wrong in this world everyone gets to choose. Choose sex, violence, drugs, hatred but if you choose God you are considered a NUT!! Well that right there ought to tell you something. Mr. Evil...lol...I laugh at you WRITE WHAT YOU WILL SAY WHAT YOU WANT BUT NOTHING CAN CHANGE THE LIKES OF YOU AND YOUR WAYS I BET THE ONLY MUSIC YOU CAN ENDURE IS SCREAMING OMG DEATH METAL....LOL...WHERE IS YOUR CULTURAL AND CIVILIZATION YOU HATE THE WAYS OF AMERICAN AND WANT TO THROW AMERICAN HISTORY OUT THERE WELL IS SUGGEST YOU START BACK AT PRE-K BECAUSE THE FOUNDING FATHERS BASED THE CONSTITUTION OF THE U.S. ON THE BIBLE DEAR NOT A TREE OR A STAR BUT THE HOLY BIBLE ENOUGH SAID YOU CAN CONSIDER YOURSELF SCHOOLED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KPatrickGlover United States Posted on 11/15/2006 at 10:11 AM

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Michelle, if other viewpoints bother you so much, perhaps you should confine your social interractions to your church. You’re obviously ill-prepared to deal with the world at large.

Some extra schooling might be neccessary as well. The founding fathers didn’t base the constitution on the Bible, they weren’t even all Christians.

Try reading a book or two.

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elwedriddsche United States Posted on 11/15/2006 at 10:27 AM

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KPG, of course the Constitution is based on the Bible. They share plenty of letters, don’t they? And the Bible came first, didn’t it? So there.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Les United States Posted on 11/15/2006 at 11:07 AM

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Thanks Michelle, that has to be one of the funniest comments we’ve gotten in awhile.

Brock United States Posted on 11/15/2006 at 11:36 AM

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You guys don’t seem to be aware that Michelle and Mr. Pus in the Sky are having you on. Heh heh, they’re pretty clever. They don’t really believe that crazy stuff. Right Michelle and Mr. Pus?....right?...urp...Oh, crap!

Ready the horses guys, we ride at dawn!

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?”
Unknown

itdontmatter United States Posted on 11/15/2006 at 12:19 PM

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Michelle: Sex, violence, drugs, and hatred can be proven to exist and belief in their existance is not in question; nobody has ever been able to prove that any god exists.  Most reasonable people are aware that violence and hatred exist and believe that they are not moral or ethical.  Most reasonable people do not believe in the existance of supernatural beings; including such things as ghosts, gods, devils, angels, ghouls, goblins, elves, spirits, trolls, or demons.  Most reasonable people also do not believe in magic. 

I do not classify people who believe in a god as being nuts.  I would classify people who try to make me believe in a god as being nuts.  I do not believe in supernatural beings and I don’t care if other people believe in supernatural beings.  I do care when other people try to say that anything I do, say, or believe is wrong because it is not in accordance with their belief in the supernatural.

zilch Austria Posted on 11/15/2006 at 12:40 PM

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Michelle- people who find it necessary to add twenty-eight exclamation points to their comments usually have a “special” number in their name.  Let’s check yours out.

A is one, B is two, and so forth.  Let’s look for the “special number, six six six:

The sixth letter of “Michelle” is L, with a value of twelve, that is two times six.  The sixth letter from the back is C, with a value of three, that is one half of six.  Add the values of the first half of “Michelle”, 13+9+3+8, and you get 33.  Three plus three is, you guessed it, six.  Using only sixes, I’ve found the Number of the Beast in your name.  So we know who’s side you’re on.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Brock United States Posted on 11/15/2006 at 12:50 PM

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Ooh ooh, do mine, Zilch, do mine!

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?”
Unknown

Tamara United States Posted on 11/15/2006 at 01:28 PM

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Michelle wrote: “I pitty you and hope you wake up to raise your children right and not just let them make all their own choices thats whats wrong in this world everyone gets to choose.”

Translation: “God forbid that anyone should teach their children to use the brain He gave them”.

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