To be honest, I am having a remarkably difficult time reconciling the notion that Daryl may be smarter than Les with 99% of the comments that Daryl makes.

This is not a statement of mere disagreement (although as a liberal, I obviously disagree with everything that Daryl says and strongly question his “sources”). It has more to do with his unapologetic use of juvenile stereotyping, his idiotic ad hominem attacks (if you don’t believe me, just check out his “gay” comment to Warbi in this thread which made me wonder if Daryl was perhaps thirteen years old), his incessant bitching about “liberalism” (which he often confuses with socialism or outright fascism), and his bizarre arguments and conclusions. Let’s face it, the man is a walking, talking stereotype of far-Right ignorance and bigotry.

But enough about Daryl Cantroll. I doubt he’ll be back. Two or three posts of sheer inanity and frothing at the mouth appear to be his trademark around here.

As an aside, I wonder how christians would view it if athiests set up a counselling program for vulnerable teens, to help prevent them from turning to christianity?

You know, I wondered the exact same thing, and I even thought about mentioning it as an aside in my original post. The more I thought about it, though, the more I worried that it may be too over-the-top of an idea. Funny how the fundie Christians haven’t reached that conclusion about their own “counselling” programs yet.

You know the thing that troubles me most about these cure you from being gay christian initiatives, is that I know from personal experience that a lot of the teens attending them will have been coerced with threats or guilt trips from family members into attending them. If there was a guarantee that 100% of the people attending these groups, courses, or whatever you want to call them were doing so from a personal desire to be ‘cured’ from being gay, and not due to outside pressure to conform then I’d be able to accept that.

Though I seriously doubt you can be ‘cured’ from being gay, best you can hope for is to suppress your feelings, based on the indoctrination that it is ‘wrong’ and ‘bad’, and live with the hope that somehow god will reward you for making such a sacrifice at some undefined time in the future.

Heavy sarcasm alert:

I don’t believe for a second that the objective of these programs is a therapy that treats a condition, but a means to make the so afflicted to stop sinning. If they become damaged goods in the process, it’s no big deal - their reward is waiting for them in the afterlife.

Watch the second part of Dawkin’s The Root of All Evil...

Wow, I’ve finally made an entry that is attracting a lot of comments. *blushes with pride* 

I’d like to add to both Les’ post and my last post by stating the fact that one can be endowed with intelligence and still be highly immature and ignorant. To state a certitude with which most of us are highly familiar, intelligence in no way necessarily denotes wisdom.

As an aside, I wonder how christians would view it if athiests set up a counselling program for vulnerable teens, to help prevent them from turning to christianity? I strongly suspect the song would change if the boot was on the other foot, who knows eh?

Oh man.  I got wood just thinking about how much fun it would be to be a camp counselor. . .

“OK, kiddies.  Here it is.  There is no Santa Claus”
(over the sound of weeping)
“Wait, there’s more.  The Easter Bunny?  A LIE“
(the sound of wailing and gnashing of teeth ensues)

counselor: [soto voce] ‘oh man, this next part’s the best. . . [Loudly] ‘Alright kids, let me have your attention. . .  This next bit is important. . . “

Daryl, are you opting to disagree with what I’ve said (that people who go for therapy to solve a problem they haven’t been able to solve - and we’re talking directed manipulation here - deserve reassurance that it’s actually going to work)?

Call me ignorant, but I can’t see a single reason why you’d want to put people undergoing this treatment at a greater risk. Make sure it works, works well, and is administered properly. Secular system.

Can anyone point to a mainline Christian organization using government coercion to shut down secular therapists who don’t have church approval?

Do you know of any mainline Satanic organization that has worked to shut down Christian organizations through government intervention? Seriously, there aren’t 2 standards of operation in this country - only one, and it is secular. Suck it up. You might as well plea for the Church to become a second government.

errandchild: Your stereotype of gays having disease, depression, achoholism and drug addiction is quite untrue.

Let’s see.

Disease:

· Over 70% of all AIDS diagnoses in Canada in adults over the age of 15 up to June 2004 were in homosexual men.  60% of all positive HIV tests are found in homosexual men. (Public Health Agency of Canada, “HIV and AIDS in Canada”).

Between 2% and 3% of all Candians live a homosexual lifestyle (1% describe themselves as “gay”, plus 1%-2% based on their behavior).  That means someone living a homosexual lifestyle has a staggering 92 times higher chance of contracting AIDS.

· The estimated prevalence of herpes simplex 2 specific antibodies was less then 0.1% in a national sample of 1,169 healthy young males, 4.8% among 411 health care workers and 55% among 397 homosexuals.  These viral infections seem to pose a health problem for risk groups such as homosexuals but not for the general population. (NIH)

· Herpes, syphilis, gonnorhea, and Chlamydia are 5 to 50 times more prevalent in men who have sex with other men.  Even worse: infection rates are increasing, while rates for the population at large are steady or falling.  (NIH and NIH)

Depression:

· In a New Zealand study, data were gathered on a range of psychiatric disorders among gay, lesbian, and bisexual young people. At the age of 21, homosexuals/bisexuals were at fourfold increased risks of major depression and conduct disorder, fivefold increased risk of nicotine dependence, twofold increased risk of other substance misuse or addiction and six times more likely to have attempted suicide. (Fergusson DM et al. Is sexual orientation related to mental health problems and suicidality in young people? Archives of General Psychiatry 1999; vol 56: 876-80.)

· In a recent US study of the mental health of homosexuals, it was found that gay/bisexual men had a more than 3-fold increased risk of major depression and a five-fold increased risk of panic disorder. They were three times as likely to rate their mental health as only ‘fair’ or ‘poor’ and to experience high levels of distress. Gay/bisexual women had a nearly four-fold increased risk of general anxiety disorder and both groups were more than three times as likely than the general population to require treatment in a mental health setting.  (NIH)

Alchoholism and Drug Addiction:

· Lesbians are three times more likely to abuse alcohol and to suffer from other compulsive behaviors: “Like most problem drinkers, 91 percent of the participants had abused other drugs as well as alcohol, and many reported compulsive difficulties with food 34 percent, codependency 29 percent, sex 11 percent, and money 6 percent.“ In addition, “46 percent had been heavy drinkers with frequent drunkenness.“ (Nursing Research vol 43: pp 238-244)

· The Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychologists reports that lesbian women consume alcohol more frequently, and in larger amounts, than heterosexual women. Lesbians were at significantly greater risk than heterosexual women for both binge drinking (19.4 percent compared to 11.7 percent), and for heavy drinking (7 percent compared to 2.7 percent). (The Washington Blade, January 12, 2001—a rare moment of honesty from a pro-gay publication!)

You forgot Death:

· In a Vancouver study, life expectancy at age 20 for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. If this pattern of mortality continues, it is estimated that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday. (Robert S. Hogg et al., International Journal of Epidemiology vol 26 (1997): pp 657-61)

May as well add Domestic Violence:

· In a survey of 1,099 lesbians, the Journal of Social Service Research found that “slightly more than half of the lesbians reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner.“

· The lowest rates of domestic violence are found in married, heterosexual couples.  Rates amongst cohabitating hetero couples are higher; amongst monogamous hetero couples higher still.  Male-male homosexual couples have still more domestic violence, and lesbian couples have the highest of all.

All of these are very inconvenient facts which those promoting the homosexual agenda choose to ignore.

errandchild: You do know that those same things can happen if you sleep with the wrong women as well.

You’ll make a good conservative yet, errandchild.  You are correct: Don’t sleep around.  Date people of the opposite sex until you find one you’re compatible with.  Wait until you are married before having sex.  Stay faithful to your spouse and monogamous.

On that last note, I should point out that homosexuals are incredibly bad at being monogamous:

· In a study of a hundred-fifty-six males in homosexual relationships lasting from one to thirty-seven years, “Only seven couples have a totally exclusive sexual relationship, and these men all have been together for less than five years. Stated another way, all couples with a relationship lasting more than five years have incorporated some provision for outside sexual activity in their relationships.“ (“The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop”, Prentice-Hall)

· Far higher rates of promiscuity are observed even within “committed” gay relationships than in heterosexual marriage: In Holland, where gay couples can get married, male homosexual relationships last on average 1.5 years, and gay men have an average of eight partners a year outside of their supposedly “committed�? relationships. (Xiridou M, et al. “The contribution of steady and casual partnerships to the incidence of HIV infection among homosexual men in Amsterdam” AIDS vol 17 (2003) pp 1029-38) Gay men have sex with someone other than their primary partner in 66% of relationships within the first year, rising to 90% of relationships after five years.

This isn’t exactly rocket science: Practically every passage in the bible which condemns homosexuality also takes a swipe at “fornication” which is an outdated word for “sleeping around”.  Add “adultery” to the mix, while you’re at it.  All three are dangerous and immoral.

errandchild: Don’t you dare ever judge someone for something that is their own personal business ever again. If you do, you shall rot in the pits of hell when you blah blah blah..

Far be it from me to judge anyone.  Let he who is without sin cast the first stone: That certainly rules me out.  Daryl’s sins, as it happens, are numerous and varied.

Memo to Sadie’s 12 gay friends: if you’re looking for a church this Sunday, feel free to join my family at St. Stephen’s in Attleboro, MA.  You can sit next to us.

However, you have confused “judging” with “speaking the truth”.  As a Christian, I’m am obligated not to judge, and I am obligated to speak the truth.  Don’t take my word for it; read the Bible:

When you hear a word from my mouth, you shall warn them for me.  If I say to the wicked man, “You shall surely die” and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his wicked conduct so that he may live: that wicked man shall die for his sin, but I will hold you responsible for his death.

If, on the other hand, you have warned the wicked man, yet he has not turned away from his evil nor from his wicked conduct, then he shall die for his sin, but you shall save your life. Ezekiel 3:17-19

Those who insist there is nothing wrong with the homosexual lifestyle, however: They have blood on their hands.  For their own selfish reasons, they choose not to speak out about the dreadful dangers inherent in homosexuality.  They choose to remain willfully ignorant.  God will repay.

There is someone who is judging, however.  God himself has passed a terrible judgement on those who continue to live a homosexual lifestyle:

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper. Romans 1:26-28

The penalty is extremely severe: God will give them up to follow their depravations!

Why?  I can’t say, exactly.  I suspect that this is a “last ditch effort” to break through the hardness of their hearts.  Having been warned about all the dangers I listed above, God has no choice but to allow them to experience those dangers, in the hope that they will turn from their wicked ways.  This is what the above passage is talking about when it says they “receive in their own persons the due penalty of their error.“  That’s my reading of it, anyway.

Daryl, need I remind you of my twelve gay male friends who are well-adjusted individuals who practice safe sex? I’m willing to bet that they are far better people than you are (and much happier in general). Plus, my partner John and I are both bisexual, and we also practice safe sex. No diseases yet, and we’re not planning on contracting any. Your “facts” contain no basis in reality and only betray your own twisted desires to see those you personally disagree with in pain.

In the immortal words of P.F. Sloan/Barry McGuire: “Hate your next-door neighbor, but don’t forget to say grace.“

· Far higher rates of promiscuity are observed even within “committed�? gay relationships than in heterosexual marriage: In Holland, where gay couples can get married, male homosexual relationships last on average 1.5 years, and gay men have an average of eight partners a year outside of their supposedly “committed�? relationships. (Xiridou M, et al. “The contribution of steady and casual partnerships to the incidence of HIV infection among homosexual men in Amsterdam�? AIDS vol 17 (2003) pp 1029-38)

Wow.  This is the second time I’ve heard the Xiridou study used as ‘proof’ of homosexual promiscuity.

Of course, the first time we encountered it, it was David who was selling it.

But we put it to bed by doing a couple of quick googles, and finding out that the Xiridou study relied on data collection that

‘excluded study participants who had fewer than two partners within the previous six months.‘

Well.  It doesn’t take a PhD in statistics to see how that might skew the whole ‘promiscuity mean’ up just a tad

If I really gave a shit, I’d probably dig into the other studies, and see what stank there, but the fact is that I really can’t be bothered.

Homosexuality doesn’t cause AIDS.  Stupidity does.

Daryl I am convinced that you are sincere in your beliefs, as I am in my own. I also understand you feel an obligation to point out other peoples ‘wrongdoing’ from the perspective of the bible.

However the bible is to most of us just a book, and not a very interesting one at that. I was brought up as a christian and forced to read that book daily, and not just read it but study it and answer questions. Yes it has some sound advice, but it also has a lot of bizarre and contradictory messages as well, I’d quote them to you if I hadn’t burned all the bibles I ever owned.

Suffice to say I know I am not alone when I say the bible is only relevant to people who believe in it, so using it as a basis for judgement on other peoples lives is only going to have any meaning to you and others like you who actually believe the bible says anything worthwhile. In effect you can only preach to the converted or the gullible, trying to preach to people who are happy with their path in life is at best a waste of both your time and theirs.

At the end of the day you cannot prove your god exists, you cannot prove that the bible is his word, nd you certainly cannot prove that the christian lifestyle is any better than any other.

Why does it never occur to you, Daryl, that perhaps statistics such as those you cited provide the very reason so many people are trying to change the way western society deals with homosexuality? We’ve been trying it your way forever, and these are the results. If gay people were given the same social incentives (and pressures) to enter stable, monogamous relationships, you would see those statistics go down. None of those disease statistics you gathered, for example, are endemic to sleeping with someone of the same sex; they are symptoms of sleeping with a lot of people, period. A truly monogamous gay person is at no greater risk for disease than any straight person. The idea that you cannot be gay without being promiscuous is fundamentally absurd, regardless of what percentage of gay people do happen to be promiscuous. You’re assuming that identity is inseparable from behavior, rather than examining the factors that produce a certain behavior in a given group. But the basic fact of the matter is, gay people have always existed, and will always exist. Telling people not to be gay based on an assemblage of statistics is like telling people not to be black because they’re more likely to end up in prison: it’s pointless and really doesn’t solve anything. Every single gay person in each of those studies was raised in a society which told them that gay people were inferior to straight people to at least some degree. A hundred years from now, when the majority of society truly doesn’t care whether Tommy grows up to marry Suzy or John, so long as he settles down, gets his taxes paid on time, and keeps the lawn neat, those statistics will have evened out, and we’ll be talking about people like you the way we talk about George Wallace now.

At the end of the day you cannot prove your god exists

Absolutely true. Even so, that doesn’t stop many people from trying to prove it. check out, http://www.allaboutcreation.org/proof-of-god.htm.

The problem is that these folks don’t understand that the existence of god is supposed to be based on faith. If there was proof of god’s existence, then he/she would no longer exist. He/she would disappear in a puff of logic.

Serai: I wonder how Christians would view it if atheists set up a counseling program for vulnerable teens, to help prevent them from turning to Christianity?

Les: Honestly I’d love to see someone set up just such a program and I’d even contribute to it’s funding to whatever degree I could manage.

Absent such a program, to what sources do you send a person coming out of the religious cloud? I wasn’t raised religious, and I dealt with my curiosities and suspicions too long ago to remember all the titles, authors, and sources. I remember a whole lot of cross-referencing, though. Recently, I got a head’s up that a formerly religious, now confused extended family member is about to come my way for some directions out of the clutches of the fundamentalist Baptists freaking him out. (I am no expert and don’t care to be put in this position, mind you. But I am simply “different,“ and thus, I suppose, the recognized nearest alternative). I know what I think and why I think it. But I have no “Start Here.“

So, Les, contribute? Where do they go from here?

I’m feeling rather insecure, sitting here, listening to the crickets. 

Allow me to ease your loneliness, Justice. Like you, I’ve never been particularly religious, though as a youngster I went to church with my parents. It wasn’t until I was twelve, however, that I really began to question the Christian lifestyle and mindset. I became interested in different cultures, religions, and lifestyles at that time, and suddenly being an American Christian seemed so boring.

I began to relate less to my generation and more to the sixties’ generation (as Scott McKenzie noted, “There’s a whole generation with a new explanation…“). I also began to relate more with people of different religious views and those with none at all. By the time I was fourteen I was an atheist, and I stayed that way for seven years. At twenty-one I became interested in polytheistic religions, and I now consider myself an agnostic with Pagan/Wiccan leanings. There was not, however, any “re-awakening” or “born-again” experience. As Les has noted, agnosticism is a weaker version of atheism, and my version is merely colored with polytheistic undertones.

That’s my personal history regarding religion. The problem with establishing a program for ex-Christians or those who seek to escape its clutches is that Christianity is very cut-and-dried regarding its agenda and its tenets. Atheism, however, is not. Our personal histories and our reasons for leaving organized religion vary. I think it’d be a great idea to assist those who wish to explore their spiritual queries, but I’m not entirely sure how to go about it at the moment.

Justice, try the following three books: Who Wrote the New Testament, by Burton L. Mack, The Lost Gospel, The Book of Q, also by Burton L. Mack, and The Buddha in Your Mirror, by Woody Hochswender, Greg Martin, & Ted Morino. Burton L. Mack is a professor of early Christianity at the School of Theology at Claremont. Woody Hochswender is a former reporter for The New York Times. Greg Martin and Ted Morino are buddhist scholars in the Nichiren Daishonen school of philosophy. I was a card-carrying Christian for twenty years and not only studied the Babble, I taught it in English, and for two years I taught it in Portuguese in Brasil. I knew there was something fundamentally wrong with that book, but the above three books helped to show what was wrong about it and offered an alternative approach to living a good life. Furthermore, this Buddhist group has no guilt trips nor value judgements on how you live your life, only positive activities to help you become happy and help those around you to become happy, also. Call it living humanism, or living compassion.

It wasn’t anything of a religous / anti-religous nature that led me to athesim, rather it was reading things that promoted critical thinking. Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes was an early hero to me. Some of the non-fiction writing of Harlan Ellison. The independent comic Cerebus, by Dave Sim. Even Star Trek, to some extent.

If someone is coming away from a Christian belief system it’s probably more important to let him know that it’s okay to not have firm beliefs than it is to give him something to replace them with.

If someone is coming away from a Christian belief system it’s probably more important to let him know that it’s okay to not have firm beliefs than it is to give him something to replace them with.

I agree 100%. By the way, I love Harlan Ellison myself.

Have you read Ellison’s “An Edge In My Voice”? It’s a marvelous collection of essays and was probably my first real encounter with critical thinking in a real world context. Amazing book.

Yes I have, and I agree that it is amazing. I generally love essays from great thinkers, but Ellison’s are especially compelling.

Justice, I’ve been a bit busy the last couple of days so I’ve not had time to formulate a good response, but quickly here off top of my head I think Dan Barker’s book Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist is supposed to be pretty good. I’ve only read small chunks of it myself. I’ll try to squeeze out sometime for a better reply soon.

Sexy Sadie wrote: “The problem with establishing a program for ex-Christians or those who seek to escape its clutches is that Christianity is very cut-and-dried regarding its agenda and its tenets. Atheism, however, is not.“

. . . Which is why I wasn’t sure where to start, and also why I thought the following was critical:

KPatrickGlover wrote: “. . . it’s probably more important to let him know that it’s okay to not have firm beliefs than it is to give him something to replace them with.“

Legaru and Les, thanks for the book recommendations. I was thinking that offering him many, very different viewpoints could only encourage critical thought - and that is how I would like to help next time I am cornered. I don’t care to convert anyone to anything (other than independent thought.)

Les, if you get around to putting something together, I would be happy to see it, and not just for my personal interest. I think it would be a thread worth coming across for someone who just doesn’t know where to go from the Church doors.

I consider Daryl to be one of the smartest people I know

personally I regard him to be as thick as two short planks…

As a Christian, I’m am obligated not to judge

Well you’d better sue whoever has been posting under your name.

But heaven forbid you are honest with your child and tell them that homosexuality

Are things different that side of the pond.  I don’t remember ever being asking to show a preference.  Do you get to tick a box at age 14? “Do you wish to be a good upstanding citizen or a raging queer whose aim in life is to destroy mankind?“  I must have been off school that day. Is that why I’m straight?

The majority Christian population in the U.S. has been astoundingly tolerant of non-Christians over the past 300 years.  They have even gone so far as to tolerate abominations like Roe v. Wade, and attempt to end the American Holocaust using peaceful means, for the most part.

Hmmmm lets ask people about an American Holocaust.  Who do you want to start with Daryll?  Sioux, Blackfoot, Cheyenne.  All those nice Christian women giving plague ridden blankets to those funny red men.  And let’s not forget that immortal line…

[Quote] Kill ‘em all, nits turn into lice

I have to go now, they kids are bothering me and moaning.  The eldest is being rude.  But hey, I’m sure Daryll will defend me in court when I take him to the town square and stone him to death (Leviticus)

Les: I consider Daryl to be one of the smartest people I know

Last Hussar: personally I regard him to be as thick as two short planks…

Well, comparing legalized abortion to the Holocaust is not a good indicator of proper reasoning skills, anyway.